An observation about Sephiroth and Zack.

[Cat Rage Room]

Sephiroth really respected Zack, didn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FiP8qA5Mw

Considering this scene for example, Sephiroth by then had taken a real liking for Zack, and had trained him, did some missions with him, and most interesting seemed to appreciate Zack's happy go lucky, boisterous personality as a contrast to his own. Most of all though, Sephiroth respected Zack's strength and potential, which was immense, leading even Hojo to wonder "Did Sephiroth really take Zack seriously back there in Nibelheim? Damn"

Part of the reason Sephiroth took his loss(es) to Cloud so badly is because of how much of a (loveable!) loser he is, this guy with no formal training, isn't part of the SOLDIER brotherhood, has the personality of a hamster, and probably didn't even really know what he was doing in Nibelhiem beat him, the legendary SOLDIER.

However, I wonder how Sephiroth would have taken it if Zack beat him instead. It seems like he's always taken Zack seriously, even before he took his strength seriously, he respected him as a fellow SOLDIER (to an increasing degree as time went on). He probably would have took it pretty badly (obviously), but I wonder if it would have went any different if Zack, who "deserved" to defeat him, bested him instead.

This thread isn't meant to post any particular question, just an observation. Discuss as you wish.

 

[aniron]

Nah, Cloud isn't all that bad.
Sure he did sneak up on Seph back in Nibelheim, but he's actually a pretty talented swordsman originally. Or so I read in his Ultimania profile.
He just wasn't "recognized" as Zack was.

As for Seph... I really don't know if it even mattered to him once went bonkers.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

No, I'm not saying Cloud is bad or untalented, he is, and he's always had the potential to be incredibly powerful.

But come on, in Sephiroth (and anyone else's perspective) was that really apparent back then, especially when your best pal is Zack? I'm not dicking on Cloud, I'm mainly illustrating him from Sephiroth's perspective.

I really don't know if it even mattered to him once went bonkers.

Oh it did.

 

[aniron]

Seph is just too arrogant for his own good.
I'm not sure where exactly his vendetta against Cloud takes it's roots, being it the fact that such a low-ranked trooper defeated him or that whoever he was, he managed to defeat him and put an end to his plans. Maybe both...
I think it would be the same if Zack was the one to defeat him. It would still be a pang to his pride.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Oh of course. However, there is a difference between a respected comrade defeating you and a nobody who couldn't even make it in the door.

 

[Super Mario]

Yeah yeah... group hug. Had to happen.








LOCK AND LOAD! Never saw it comming!

 

[Axwind]

Seph was humiliated, basically. A common grunt, Cloud, beat him, the legendary SOLDIER. Something that should never have happened, but did. Naturally that would tick Seph off.

 

[aniron]

Oh of course. However, there is a difference between a respected comrade defeating you and a nobody who couldn't even make it in the door.

Zack was no longer Sephiroth's comrade once he decided to burn down Nibelheim and slain it's citizens.
Seph may have respected Zack as a warrior and a man who could make it into 1st Class elite group, but that's that.
If Seph didn't recognize Cloud's strengh after the second time he defeated him, then he's just plain stupid.

EDIT;
And if Seph respected Zack so much and recognized him as someone worth defeating him, do you think he would stop his evildoings at once? Like "Oh, Zack defeated me. I may rest in peace now."
Or you think if it indeed was Zack, Seph whould be less obsessed over him?... Well, maybe.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Zack was no longer Sephiroth's comrade once he decided to burn down Nibelheim and slain it's citizens.
Seph may have respected Zack as a warrior and a man who could make it into 1st Class elite group, but that's that. If Seph didn't recognize Cloud's strengh after the second time he defeated him, then he's just plain stupid.

A former comrade. Even that is a powerful connection and more meaningful than being beaten by some guy he doesn't know. Seph may have recognized Cloud's strength, of course, but that doesn't mean he thinks he deserves it.

EDIT;
And if Seph respected Zack so much and recognized him as someone worth defeating him, do you think he would stop his evildoings at once? Like "Oh, Zack defeated me. I may rest in peace now."
Or you think if it indeed was Zack, Seph whould be less obsessed over him?... Well, maybe.

No, he wouldn't, I think. Nobody is satisfied with DYING. However I don't think he would be as obsessed with him. Most of the reason why Sephiroth is so obsessed with Cloud is their difference in rank and status.

 

[aniron]

A former comrade. Even that is a powerful connection and more meaningful than being beaten by some guy he doesn't know. Seph may have recognized Cloud's strength, of course, but that doesn't mean he thinks he deserves it.

No, he wouldn't, I think. Nobody is satisfied with DYING. However I don't think he would be as obsessed with him. Most of the reason why Sephiroth is so obsessed with Cloud is their difference in rank and status.

Sure he woudn't be as obssesed with Zack.
I think it's all Seph's arrogance and insanity that got better of him. Trying to prove Cloud worthless and failing every time...

It's funny though how Seph had gone against ShinRa and still thinking in terms of it's hierarchy.

 

[OWA-2]

The way I see it, after Nibelheim Sephiroth didn't saw Cloud as an inferior being only because he wasn't part of SOLDIER(and a mere grunt) at the time he defeated Sephiroth for the first time, but because Cloud became just a weak-minded puppet controled by him too.
And then the puppet was able to cut his strings, surpass the will of his "master", and defeat him. That's the main reason why Sephiroth hates him so much, I think.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

That's a good point.

 

[Roger]

The Sephiroth that we saw in Advent Children didn't really seem to care for what Cloud's rank was seven years ago if you ask me. It's where his obsession started, sure but it had evolved into straight up hatred.

Also equal? Sephiroth didn't seem to consider Zack all that much of a threat, when Zack put the Buster Sword next to his head Sephiroth was more like "Oh, I'm sorry, did you want something?" Then at the end of the fight he had this look on his face of utter disinterest, just shouting "Booooring".

EDIT: Yeah, after getting killed by Cloud the revelation that Cloud wasn't even capable off resisting Jenova's control must've felt like a slap in the face for Sephiroth.

 

[ForceStealer]

Sephiroth didn't seem to consider Zack all that much of a threat, when Zack put the Buster Sword next to his head Sephiroth was more like "Oh, I'm sorry, did you want something?" Then at the end of the fight he had this look on his face of utter disinterest, just shouting "Booooring".

Well he wasn't threatened because he's Sephiroth. But he can still respect another's abilities. Genesis and Angeal were close (at least relatively) friends that I'm sure he respected, but he still shrugged off their attacks rather effortlessly.
So even though he was more than a match for Zack, he still recognized him as a competent fighter worthy of his 1st Class SOLDIER status. But losing to Cloud, to him, was inexcusable. If he did know his name, he had forgotten it by FF7, unless that was the start of the plan to make Cloud doubt himself...but still I wouldn't be surprised if he never knew his name. Asking him about his hometown is the only time he even spoke to him before going crazy.

Incidentally, I think it's interesting that Cloud's false memory ends with him confronting Sephiroth, but in reality he used the much less honorable (but much more effective) tactic of stabbing though the back. Though I doubt Sephiroth cares about that, had he been himself and not wrapped up in his alien mother that probably wouldn't have worked.

 

[Gale]

I always thought that Cloud's status as a nobody from a hick-town had a severe effect on how big a blow to Sephiroth's pride the confrontation was. In every other part of the game and compilation, Sephiroth is very aware of what he's up against and exerts enough strength to counter it. Had Sephiroth taken Cloud at all seriously, he never would have died in Nibelheim. But think about it, if you're the strongest SOLDIER on the planet, are you gonna give some MP, especially one that's only a teenager, a second thought? The stab in the back was Sephiroth being careless, and it was obvious how pissed off he was that he let some punk hurt him (and up until that point we've never seen Sephiroth so badly injured). But it was the fact that he underestimated him again, and that Cloud was able to pick up him ALONG with the Masamune that must have really gotten under his skin. He was utterly shocked in Crisis Core/the original flashback. Had he been thinking straight, expecting Cloud to fight as hard as he did, he'd have let go of his sword at the very least and no doubt have killed Cloud.

It's not just that Cloud was a nobody - it's that when Sephiroth should have known better he still failed to see how strong he really was, and he paid dearly for it. The fact that Cloud was so easy to manipulate in the game itself, as stated before, probably added to that. The only person in the world that managed to best its greatest warrior is an insecure kid with low self-confidence. Considering how proud Sephiroth is, no doubt that pissed him off.

I think with Zack in some ways it would have been the same. The reason Sephiroth beat Zack was because he knew how strong Zack was, and thus never gave him big enough of an oppening to really hurt him. Had Sephiroth underestimated Zack and allowed the guy to win, I'm sure he would have hated him about as much. The key is that Sephiroth's defeat at Nibelheim was his own fault, and this isn't a guy known for failure. Sephiroth underestimating Cloud was, for all we know, the first and only critical mistake Sephiroth ever made in combat.

 

[Roger]

Incidentally, I think it's interesting that Cloud's false memory ends with him confronting Sephiroth, but in reality he used the much less honorable (but much more effective) tactic of stabbing though the back. Though I doubt Sephiroth cares about that, had he been himself and not wrapped up in his alien mother that probably wouldn't have worked.

He didn't stab him in the back, in FFVII Sephiroth turned around and just kinda took it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He didn't stab him in the back, in FFVII Sephiroth turned around and just kinda took it.

Good point. That's what happened in the original, but in the Compilation, such as CC, Sephiroth gets it from behind.

...Wow, that sounds wrong...

 

[Roger]

"I always thought that Cloud's status as a nobody from a hick-town had a severe effect on how big a blow to Sephiroth's pride the confrontation was."

As opposed to all Sephiroths other friends who were also hicks out to copy his hero status. More successful nobodies but still.

 

[ForceStealer]

He didn't stab him in the back, in FFVII Sephiroth turned around and just kinda took it.

I forgot about that, you're right. I must say I do like the LO/CC portrayal of the camera looking at Jenova, the glass cracks, and the camera looks down at the tip of the Buster Sword.

 

[Gale]

"I always thought that Cloud's status as a nobody from a hick-town had a severe effect on how big a blow to Sephiroth's pride the confrontation was."

As opposed to all Sephiroths other friends who were also hicks out to copy his hero status. More successful nobodies but still.

They had talent and Sephiroth knew it - and Sephiroth was never beaten by any of them. Cloud was a pissed off kid, to be fair he had potential at the time, but really all that was all. He had lost his family and Tifa was hurt and all of this was at the hand of his idol - he was angry and it allowed him to do Sephiroth real harm - something that had never happened before.

It does matter that Cloud was a hick-kid with no reputation - that's why Sephiroth let his guard down enough to get hurt, which is why he's so bitter about it. Cloud wasn't his friend, Sephiroth had no idea who he was, and though it was impressive that he survived being impaled and picked up the Masamune - that's not necessarily a feat that only a 1st Class SOLDIER could manage. People do incredible things when the people they love are in danger.

It would have been a blow to Sephiroth's pride no matter who it was, be it a SOLDIER or just one of the townfolk, but the fact that he was so badly hurt by someone who under different circumstances would have had no chance to even land a blow is a sign that Sephiroth made a serious mistake - not something he's well known for.

 

[Roger]

They had talent and Sephiroth knew it - and Sephiroth was never beaten by any of them. Cloud was a pissed off kid, to be fair he had potential at the time, but really all that was all. He had lost his family and Tifa was hurt and all of this was at the hand of his idol - he was angry and it allowed him to do Sephiroth real harm - something that had never happened before.

It does matter that Cloud was a hick-kid with no reputation - that's why Sephiroth let his guard down enough to get hurt, which is why he's so bitter about it. Cloud wasn't his friend, Sephiroth had no idea who he was, and though it was impressive that he survived being impaled and picked up the Masamune - that's not necessarily a feat that only a 1st Class SOLDIER could manage. People do incredible things when the people they love are in danger.

It would have been a blow to Sephiroth's pride no matter who it was, be it a SOLDIER or just one of the townfolk, but the fact that he was so badly hurt by someone who under different circumstances would have had no chance to even land a blow is a sign that Sephiroth made a serious mistake - not something he's well known for.

Don't need to make a novel about. I was just pointing out that him being a hick was sorta irrelevant when so far Sephiroth hasn't met anyone he could even remotely consider on par with him that wasn't a hick.

 

[Gale]

Fair enough but I didn't mean it so literally - I was just saying that Cloud was a nobody that Sephiroth had no reason to think anything of.

 

[Max Payne]

Don't need to make a novel about.

rofl and people say I'm rude.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Don't need to make a novel about. I was just pointing out that him being a hick was sorta irrelevant when so far Sephiroth hasn't met anyone he could even remotely consider on par with him that wasn't a hick.

That's irrelevant, dude. If anything, they're all hicks, Cloud was born in Nibelhiem, Zack in Gongaga, Genesis/Angeal in Banora, and from what can be considered, Sephiroth was probably born in Nibelhiem as well. When I say hick, I don't mean the EXACT GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION where they were born, but I mean a general atmosphere about them.

Zack was born in the middle of nowhere but he wasn't really a hick because he was very close to being a worldwide superstar before he was even twenty. Same thing for Genesis and Angeal (and they WERE worldwide superstars). Cloud was a hick because he was born a nobody and stayed that way.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Good point. That's what happened in the original, but in the Compilation, such as CC, Sephiroth gets it from behind.

I'm a couple of pages behind, is this what was observed about Seph and Zack? Sephy's the bitch and Zack is the butch?