Angeal and Genesis' Status As Rival Side Projects Devalue The Reveal Of Sephiroth's Status As An Experiments

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#1
I thought about this realization, but I think Angeal and Genesis being made from a rival project kind of devalues Sephiroth's status as being someone alienated from the rest of humanity. I can understand if they were just regular humans who could match with him. However, I think by making them experiments it actually takes away from Sephiroth's reveal that he too isn't fully human.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#3
No... That's just plain silly.

The fact other scientists in a multi-billion dollar gil corporation were examining and experimenting on an alien creature for the same profit driven project they were paid to do, doesn't "de-value" Sephiroth's revelation of his origins, his "other-ness" or his status as Jenova's "child." It would be quite unusual to discover no other scientists were employed with Shinra, or capable of formulating their own theories on how to replicate a Cetra when the company had the resources and motivation to go all in on a large scale project as that.

Hell, fans were theorizing on the possibility of failed "Cetra" prototypes of Sephiroth since 1998, and it never was seen as "de-valuing" his legacy or status as the ultimate SOLDIER.

You really think Shinra and it's science department would successfully genetically map and hybridize a human and unknown alien species on the first try? No, biology of that level would need trial and error. And in the end, it changes nothing. Because Sephiroth was the one above all others.

Sephiroth being removed from humanity wasn't merely based on his biology. It stemmed more from the fact he was peerless as a SOLDIER and a human. No mortal came close to ever matching his power while he was with Shinra. And while he grew up, he had no friends or children to bond or identify with. He grew up alone as a special project being told he was superior to all other humans.

The existence of Genesis and Angeal as weaker, failed attempts at creating a being like Sephiroth changes nothing. Because they were not only inferior, they also got to live normal, happy lives. They got to join SOLDIER by choice. They had a childhood. They knew love and affection. Genesis And Angeal may have been SOLDIER 1st class like him, but they are not even close to his equal, nor do they share his experience.

No, what pissed people off about Crisis Core, were two things.

Genesis dropping in at the Mt. Nibel Reactor and giving up the secret on Jenova, and Genesis having a huge ass black-wing like a copy-cat.

Oh, and random Gackt self-insertion. :mon:

That's what rubbed fans wrong.
 
#4
I agree with your rationale, as it happens; I always thought it made sense that there were prototypes. However, I disagree that all the fans were happy with this. Plenty of fans felt and still do feel as Jazz suggests, that having other super-soldiers detracted from Sephiroth's unique Otherness. You obviously think they're wrong to feel that way, and of course plenty of fans also agree with you.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#5
There should not have been rival side projects. Sephiroth's parents were Hojo and Lucretia but Gast, the one and only head of the Science Division was still one of his creators, he was in the room overseeing it all at Shinra Manor throughout the Jenova Project (except for the sex, probably). Nibelheim, where Sephiroth was created is where Jenova was kept. Hollander's stuff hurts the canon, though not neccesarily for devalueing Sephiroth's status. I'm sure there were other experiments, but not by rival science teams.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#7
I thought it was pretty standard in the world of science to pit scientists against each other.
Both Sephiroth and Rufus consider Hojo a second rate scientist. He got the job he did because Gast and Lucretia were no longer around, Gast being seen as the real deal. Having Hojo win the job out of recognition for his brilliance in creating Sephiroth does damage the whole idea of his character.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#10
Wait, wait, wait...

Professor Gast did not work on creating Sephiroth, or "Project S." That was Hojo.

Gast was the one who discovered Jenova. He was the one who synthesized the information and truth regarding what Jenova was. Which was not an "Ancient." Upon discovery of this truth, Gast resigned in shame and ran away from Shinra to hide.

But Gast never was the one who developed or created Sephiroth.

That really was Hojo's credit and achievement. Hojo was a second rate scientist and horrible person, but he was the one who was responsible for Sephiroth's creation.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#11
Wait, wait, wait...

Professor Gast did not work on creating Sephiroth, or "Project S." That was Hojo.

Gast was the one who discovered Jenova. He was the one who synthesized the information and truth regarding what Jenova was. Which was not an "Ancient." Upon discovery of this truth, Gast resigned in shame and ran away from Shinra to hide.

But Gast never was the one who developed or created Sephiroth.

That really was Hojo's credit and achievement. Hojo was a second rate scientist and horrible person, but he was the one who was responsible for Sephiroth's creation.
Project "S" is a Crisis Core invention. Before Crisis Core there was only the Jenova Project.

Gast was with Hojo, Lucretia and Vincent at the Shinra Manor. Vincent says straight up "This body is... the punishment that's been given to me... I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia... I was unable to stop them... All that I was able to do was watch... That is my punishment..."

Gast was meant to be involved in what culminated in Lucretia's decision to give a birth to a baby so they could mutilate it for their research. He then quit and Hojo got his job.. Not because people felt he earned it. Sephiroth read the research at Shinra Manor and was able to interpret it as Professor Gast being his creator. Nibelheim is where he was created. If the project there was headed up by Hojo alone, Sephiroth would have read about it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#13
Project "S" is a Crisis Core invention. Before Crisis Core there was only the Jenova Project.

Gast was with Hojo, Lucretia and Vincent at the Shinra Manor. Vincent says straight up "This body is... the punishment that's been given to me... I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia... I was unable to stop them... All that I was able to do was watch... That is my punishment..."

Gast was meant to be involved in what culminated in Lucretia's decision to give a birth to a baby so they could mutilate it for their research. He then quit and Hojo got his job.. Not because people felt he earned it. Sephiroth read the research at Shinra Manor and was able to interpret it as Professor Gast being his creator. Nibelheim is where he was created. If the project there was headed up by Hojo alone, Sephiroth would have read about it.
Gast headed the Jenova Project, but he left it halfway.

Vincent said what he said because he's lumping Professor Gast with all the other researchers who were in charge of the Jenova Project. Because it's all together. But Professor Gast was not shown at the Shinra Mansion in VII, or to be involved with the actual decision between Lucrecia and Hojo to use their unborn child. That was their choice to make as a couple. Gast was lead of the Jenova Project but he did leave it halfway and it became Hojo's. The research and science in terms of understanding Jenova was the result of Gast's efforts and knowledge. And the project started with him.

But Hojo and Lucrecia were the ones who made Sephiroth and decided to use their child. Gast wasn't there trying to egg them on or saying, "use your kid as a guinea pig!"

**Gast Faremis*** (Page 59)
Places of appearance: Icicle Lodge (video tape)

Aerith's father. He was once the head of Shin-Ra Company's Science Department.
Conducting research on the first humans, the Ancients, he believed Jenova
[whom he had discovered] was an Ancient and began "the Jenova Project" to
increase the Ancients' numbers, but during the process, he recognized his
failures and resigned. At Icicle Lodge, with the cooperation of Ifalna, he
would conduct original research that would make progress. However, shortly
after their daughter was born, he was killed by Hojo and the results of his
research were taken
And then this blurb on the Jenova Project:

**Jenova Relation 1: The Jenova Project** (005.1A)
Approximately 30 years ago, a plan to find "the Promised Land of abundant
mako" is set in motion by way of the Shin-Ra Science Department beginning a
project under Gast's direction. The purpose of the project was to
artificially produce someone with the abilities of the Ancients
(Cetra/-->P.214). Jenova, discovered in the Northern Crater, was incorrectly
identified as an Ancient, and its cells were to be injected into a normal
human with the expectation that they may artificially display the abilities of
the Cetra as a result.

Research was conducted at the Shinra Mansion in Nibelheim. It began under the
responsibility of three members [of Shin-Ra's Science Department]: Gast, Hojo
and Lucrecia; but Gast withdraws midway [through the project]. Authority over
the project is then transferred to Hojo. "The Sephiroth Clones Project"
(-->P.213) follows as an extension of this.
So that's why, it's not really accurate to say Gast was responsible for *creating* Sephiroth. He was responsible for the Jenova Project, Sephiroth was born from his research, but the actual decision and creation of Sephiroth came from Hojo and Lucrecia. They made that choice and it was from them that "S" was created. "S" and "G" are still the same Jenova Project, those monikers merely denote the offspring of the Jenova Project. Project S only refers to the research and experiment that created Sephiroth.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#14
Gast headed the Jenova Project, but he left it halfway.

Vincent said what he said because he's lumping Professor Gast with all the other researchers who were in charge of the Jenova Project. Because it's all together. But Professor Gast was not shown at the Shinra Mansion in VII, or to be involved with the actual decision between Lucrecia and Hojo to use their unborn child. That was their choice to make as a couple. Gast was lead of the Jenova Project but he did leave it halfway and it became Hojo's. The research and science in terms of understanding Jenova was the result of Gast's efforts and knowledge. And the project started with him.
I agree, but that is no longer the story in Crisis Core. Hojo became head in Shinra's Science Division in favor of Hollander or anyone because his research was viewed as a success. Rufus and Sephiroth perception weren't meant to be pulled from thin air. I'm not saying Hojo doesn't deserve credit for Sephiroth's creation, I'm saying he didn't get any. All documentation at the Shinra Mansion points to Gast, accurate or not. Lucretia was an assistant to Professor Gast, not Hojo.

Sephiroth was a success and Hojo was the only science member that made it out of Nibelheim, perceived as second rate or not. They changed up this narrative in favor of underdog Hollander to the victorious Hojo in what was always a race for the promotion.

And then this blurb on the Jenova Project:



So that's why, it's not really accurate to say Gast was responsible for *creating* Sephiroth. He was responsible for the Jenova Project, Sephiroth was born from his research, but the actual decision and creation of Sephiroth came from Hojo and Lucrecia. They made that choice and it was from them that "S" was created. "S" and "G" are still the same Jenova Project, those monikers merely denote the offspring of the Jenova Project. Project S only refers to the research and experiment that created Sephiroth.
Project G was done hundreds of miles from where Jenova itself was studied, Project S was at the site of greater Jenova Project. It's not a coincidence that Project S is the one that is more relevant to the events of original game and that Project G only figures into a story that was made up years later.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#15
The original game gives absolutely zero reason to believe Gast wasn't heading up the process during Sephiroth's conception, and even after his birth.

He's shown in Nibelheim with Hojo and Lucrecia. Vincent includes Gast in those he says he couldn't stop. Hojo says "I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project." Sephiroth ponders aloud why Gast didn't tell him the truth.

Everything points to his presence and involvement as the one in charge.

It is purely an invention of the Compilation era that there were competing projects overseen by rival underlings rather than the man himself.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#16
I agree, but that is no longer the story in Crisis Core. Hojo became head in Shinra's Science Division in favor of Hollander or anyone because his research was viewed as a success. Rufus and Sephiroth perception weren't meant to be pulled from thin air. I'm not saying Hojo doesn't deserve credit for Sephiroth's creation, I'm saying he didn't get any. All documentation at the Shinra Mansion points to Gast, accurate or not. Lucretia was an assistant to Professor Gast, not Hojo.

Sephiroth was a success and Hojo was the only science member that made it out of Nibelheim, perceived as second rate or not. They changed up this narrative in favor of underdog Hollander to the victorious Hojo in what was always a race for the promotion.



Project G was done hundreds of miles from where Jenova itself was studied, Project S was at the site of greater Jenova Project. It's not a coincidence that Project S is the one that is more relevant to the events of original game and that Project G only figures into a story that was made up years later.
I think this stems from the Compilation erasing Gast's presence on the games. I mean in Dirge Of Cerebrus even though we focus on Lucrecia, Vincent, and Hojo, we don't ever have a mention about Gast when he was a big part of the project. When you add as you said Hollander and his project then you make Hojo into the success instead of the wannabe he is in the original game.

@twlight I mean if both projects were being overseen by Gast that would be one thing, but the Compilation never implies that. It again furthers my believe the spinoff games don't really recognize Gast as an important character.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#17
But, that's not the issue, I'm not saying Gast wasn't in charge. Gast was the one in charge inasmuch as the Jenova Project, was his project. He was the one who oversaw it. Gast is even acknowledged in Crisis Core via NPC dialogue and he's credited as the creator of the Jenova Project. However, the reason not much is seen of Gast is simply because Gast is dead. His research, information and everything he did was stolen by Hojo. That's why Hojo has a more prominent role and standing.

All materials, from the FFVII Ultimania Omega to what characters in-game say, states Gast was not the one who came up with the idea, or chose to use a baby as a guinea pig. That came from Hojo and Lucrecia's decision. In the end, Gast was disturbed and horrified when he found out the truth of Jenova's true origin.

Hojo even explicitly states this.

Ha, ha, ha...
I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project.
When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova...
HA, HA, HA!!
And we only see Vincent confronting or arguing with Hojo or Lucrecia in the past.

Gast's responsibility lies in his rush to want to study Jenova and misidentifying it as a Cetra based on faulty knowledge and understanding. He was reckless and too eager. But the actual decision to use a kid? That was Hojo and Lucrecia. They suggested and wished to do it.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#18
But, that's not the issue, I'm not saying Gast wasn't in charge. Gast was the one in charge inasmuch as the Jenova Project, was his project. He was the one who oversaw it. Gast is even acknowledged in Crisis Core via NPC dialogue and he's credited as the creator of the Jenova Project. However, the reason not much is seen of Gast is simply because Gast is dead. His research, information and everything he did was stolen by Hojo. That's why Hojo has a more prominent role and standing.

All materials, from the FFVII Ultimania Omega to what characters in-game say, states Gast was not the one who came up with the idea, or chose to use a baby as a guinea pig. That came from Hojo and Lucrecia's decision. In the end, Gast was disturbed and horrified when he found out the truth of Jenova's true origin.

Hojo even explicitly states this.



And we only see Vincent confronting or arguing with Hojo or Lucrecia in the past.

Gast's responsibility lies in his rush to want to study Jenova and misidentifying it as a Cetra based on faulty knowledge and understanding. He was reckless and too eager. But the actual decision to use a kid? That was Hojo and Lucrecia. They suggested and wished to do it.
Hojo's standing is crap. Sephiroth didn't grow up in Shinra thinking the world of Gast out of nowhere. Nor did Rufus calling Hojo second rate come out of nowhere. He is a walking mass of complexes because he never gets the credit for delivering Shinra it's perfect supersoldier. Whether he and Lucretia deserve the credit is a different question. In Crisis Core he's gets all recognition he wanted, in it Project S and Project G were always bids to get the Head of the Science Departments job, and Hojo won. In the original, Hojo gets the job as an unfortunate byproduct of Gast leaving.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#19
All materials, from the FFVII Ultimania Omega to what characters in-game say, states Gast was not the one who came up with the idea, or chose to use a baby as a guinea pig.
No, nothing in the Ultimania or the game says this. Literally nothing even implies it.

In actuality, the Ultimania says that Gast proposed the Jenova Project as a way of restoring the Cetra (in his bio) and that he ultimately resigned out of guilt over using humans for such an experiment (in the "Jenova Relation" portion of the "Truth of Final Fantasy VII" section). For that matter, how was he going to produce new Cetra without using people in experiments? =P

And let's be honest: literally no one who played the game ever suggested that Gast had such an uninvolved role as what you or the Compilation are suggesting -- until Crisis Core came along. And even then, it mostly just confused people with "Where the fuck is Gast."
 
AKA
The Engineer
#20
One of my biggest pet peeves in the Sci-Fi genre as a whole is the idea that only one project or prototype is being worked on to apply a given discovery. Sephiroth being the only application of Jenova cells on a human (that even worked!) is a huge pet peeve of mine from the OG and requires more then a bit of deliberately suspending belief on my part to make it work. Finding out he was the successful result of not one, but two, projects was a welcome relief.

That Genesis and Angeal were portrayed like they were in Crisis Core is a completely separate issue from there being multiple attempts to make a Jenova infused Hybrid human. That there was only one attempt that worked actually makes Sephiroth less impressive in my books since there's no way to know if he was an accident of science or if the way Hojo made him is repeatable.

I personally hope FFVIIR at least keeps the idea that there were mulitple attempts to create a Jenova/Human Hybrid and runs with it. Not so far as to include Genes and Angeal maybe, but far enough that Cloud and Co. find mention (or even leftovers) of projects before Sephiroth's project that didn't end up working out.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#21
One of my biggest pet peeves in the Sci-Fi genre as a whole is the idea that only one project or prototype is being worked on to apply a given discovery. Sephiroth being the only application of Jenova cells on a human (that even worked!) is a huge pet peeve of mine from the OG and requires more then a bit of deliberately suspending belief on my part to make it work. Finding out he was the successful result of not one, but two, projects was a welcome relief.

That Genesis and Angeal were portrayed like they were in Crisis Core is a completely separate issue from there being multiple attempts to make a Jenova infused Hybrid human. That there was only one attempt that worked actually makes Sephiroth less impressive in my books since there's no way to know if he was an accident of science or if the way Hojo made him is repeatable.

I personally hope FFVIIR at least keeps the idea that there were mulitple attempts to create a Jenova/Human Hybrid and runs with it. Not so far as to include Genes and Angeal maybe, but far enough that Cloud and Co. find mention (or even leftovers) of projects before Sephiroth's project that didn't end up working out.
I disagree. I think with the multiple experimentation it takes away from the gravity of Sephiorth's revelation. The point is why would he get as upset as he would being an experiment if there were two more before him. It takes away his mystery when he knows about an earlier project.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#22
No, nothing in the Ultimania or the game says this. Literally nothing even implies it.
The implication only comes from the fact that the action of using an unborn baby is attributed to Hojo and Lucrecia's decision. We're never told Gast was the one who suggested or desired such a sacrifice.

In actuality, the Ultimania says that Gast proposed the Jenova Project as a way of restoring the Cetra (in his bio) and that he ultimately resigned out of guilt over using humans for such an experiment (in the "Jenova Relation" portion of the "Truth of Final Fantasy VII" section). For that matter, how was he going to produce new Cetra without using people in experiments? =P

And let's be honest: literally no one who played the game ever suggested that Gast had such an uninvolved role as what you or the Compilation are suggesting -- until Crisis Core came along. And even then, it mostly just confused people with "Where the fuck is Gast."
Well, there's a difference between trying to clone, revive, or give a consenting, functioning adult a Cetra's powers, versus... Using your own research assistant's unborn child she created with another research assistant as a guinea pig. That's a level of 'mad scientist' no one but Hojo reaches. Using people in experiments is bad, but it's significantly worst and just incredibly unprofessional and dangerous to experiment on your own lab assistants and then their baby.

It's not that Gast isn't involved or wasn't important to the Jenova Project. And it's not that Crisis Core is somehow trying to erase Gast's place as the leader of the Jenova Project. It's the fact he's dead in Crisis Core, and has been dead for 15 years. That's a long, long time and Hojo is the only one left from the original team still working there. Gast ran off, quit and disappeared according to everyone. Hojo killed him, stole all his research, and was left as the last man standing.

And as the last man standing, he got to run the ship.

I disagree. I think with the multiple experimentation it takes away from the gravity of Sephiorth's revelation. The point is why would he get as upset as he would being an experiment if there were two more before him. It takes away his mystery when he knows about an earlier project.
Why would he be upset?

He'd be upset because his whole life was a lie, that's why.

Sephiroth questioned his humanity and felt he could be no better than the monster experiments Shinra made. That's upsetting regardless of number. The fact he was a superhuman and stronger than literally everyone, already fueled his isolation and perceived "otherness" from humanity. That has nothing to do with Genesis or Angeal.
 
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#23
I don't know how else you could clone a human being aside from removing the DNA from whatever the first stages of a new human being are called - blast cells or something - and replacing it with the DNA of the individual you want to clone. Maybe there is another way. Lex? (I don't know if he's even reading this thread!). I wonder if Lucretia and Hojo had mapped Jenova's DNA first (in which case, wouldn't they have seen what she was? Or Rather, what she wasn't?) or just shot a bunch of random genetic material into their little embryo and waited to see what would happen? Like, I don't think the science of genetics was very far advanced, otherwise Gast would have known from the get-go that Jenova wasn't human.
 
#24
Gast would have no idea what Cetra cells look like, if Jenova cells mimic their host enough, Gast could easily chalk up any discrepancies to Cetra differences to baseline humanity.

Honestly, I think Angeal and Genesis' stories actually enhance Sephy's. He's seen them both crack before him, but believes he's different, and then finds out, no, he's created just like his friends, which destroyed them, and now has no reason to believe he'll be any different.

I could easily see Gast as department head authorising both projects and deliberately pitting Hojo and Hollander against each other.

We don't know a lot about the early science dept, but the idea that Hojo is such a bad scientist is dubious to me. Our sources are Sephiroth and Vincent (who both hate his guts) and Rufus (who would have no idea.)

Hojo pretty consistently knows what's going on better than anyone else. He recognised Jenova wasn't an Ancient, where Gast didn't. His SOLDIER project worked, where Hollander's didn't. He's the only one who understands completely what's going on in the crater at disk 2. He was able to understand and implement Lucrecia's 'abstract, complex' thesis once he saw the proof. He's a monster for sure, but he's damn good at his job.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#25
At the very least, his inferiority where Gast was concerned is documented in the Ultimanias and such beyond just Vincent, Sephiroth and Rufus's opinions of him (though that speaks rather plainly to how others view him in general since we don't get contrary assessments). Also, I'm unsure what you mean when you say "He recognised Jenova wasn't an Ancient, where Gast didn't" -- we don't know when Hojo learned this. It could have been when he learned about the Weapons, from Gast's documentation.

At the very least, by his own admission at the Reunion, many of his hypotheses were based off Gast's research, which he had kept to himself such that no one else could have even been in a position to know what was going on at the crater.

And as for Lucrecia's thesis, he had initially discounted it -- so she too surpassed him there. Really, getting things right with the Reunion and Omega are his only claims to fame post-Sephiroth, and both of those hypotheses were based off the findings of other scientists.

You are correct, though, that he got shit done. He could drive the car well provided someone else built it.
 
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