Avatar: The Last Airbender & Korra (SPOILERS)

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
I mean clearly something can't be marketable if it offends the sensibilities of poor conservative moms.
harry potter wasn't even that profitable

if only jkr waited for a time when wizards were socially acceptable
 

Carlie

CltrAltDelicious
AKA
Chloe Frazer
just because CN has adult swim doesn't mean they aren't still both the biggest names in children's entertainment

that doesn't mean some of that entertainment doesn't have some serious adult overtones!



pictured above: wholesome children's entertainment on a saturday morning
parents rest easily knowing their kids are in safe hands
Which perfectly shows how hypocritical these arguments against gays characters are or just sexuality in general. They are more tolerant of violence than they are of sexuality.
 
Z

Zealkin

Guest
harry potter wasn't even that profitable

if only jkr waited for a time when wizards were socially acceptable
I don't think anyone said we had to wait for things to become that way, just that it would take time for it to become mainstream. Mainstream enough that creators would think of all sides of the spectrum instead of just one hetero sexual mindset.

Because let's face it the closest atla had with canonically gay characters were these guys:

And Tyzula And that's just fan speculation..

No one's saying not to make change at whatever time, but unfortunately people have yet to think of all types of people when representing characters.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
just because CN has adult swim doesn't mean they aren't still both the biggest names in children's entertainment

that doesn't mean some of that entertainment doesn't have some serious adult overtones!
But I've never gotten them impression that the mainstream society as a whole holds Cartoon Network to the same childish standards as Nick.

Never said it doesn't have some kid's shows on it, either.

But it's kind of about what people as a whole are and are not ignorant about and what kind of impressions they themselves hold.



pictured above: wholesome children's entertainment on a saturday morning
parents rest easily knowing their kids are in safe hands
And I don't know what this has to do with my point seeing as how we all already know it's a stupid double standard that violence is okay while being gay is not?

is this a rhetorical question??????? ofc it does
probably not as many stoners as AT though
Well that's something. :P

This show is for the kids to watch, not the parents. And if kids want to watch their show, they will find a way to watch their show. That's just how kids work. Really at the end of the day, the ratings only contribute to a fraction of the money brought it by a kids show. Toy/merchandise sales are equally important I think.
It's a bit lofty to assume all children will be able to find easy access to it.

Also, I don't know how Toys and merchandise can be held to be that different. If a kid is not allowed to watch a show I'm assuming the parents wouldn't let them own merchandise from it as well.

Unless you are implying that if they all had good allowances and/or are old enough for part time jobs after school they can buy everything and just hide it under their bed and that alone would be enough to sustain the show?

Kids don't discriminate. Parents do. Look at Sailor Moon. It was FILLED with lesbianism, implicit or otherwise, and it was still wildly popular even in the west. If it's a good show it will appeal to kids regardless.
But this was never about the kids.

Yeah, but typically parents complain less about violence than sexual themes or "naughty words". As a South Park character once said "horrific deplorable violence is okay as long a people don't say naughty words".
Not a comment on the argument whether Bryke had an imperative to make a homosexual character on The Legend of Korra or not; just making the observation of what usually USA parents are more squeamish about.
^This, yes.

I don't think that people are saying story-wise it would be hard to imagine, rather people are questioning how okay Nickelodeon executives and/or the TV censors would be okay with it.
^Also, this. Korra being a lesbian could work. Like any story it could be done right and work well or the writers could just mess up and make it suck. But whether or not it would work in the story had never been the issue.

The whole mindset just makes me think, well maybe Bloomsbury should've made JK Rowling rewrite the whole "wizard" aspect out of her story.

I mean clearly something can't be marketable if it offends the sensibilities of poor conservative moms.
harry potter wasn't even that profitable

if only jkr waited for a time when wizards were socially acceptable
Because wizards are held to the same social stigmas as gay couples by an equally sizable group of people?

Just because there were people who don't like Harry Potter doesn't mean there are as many in comparison. Not to mention the fact that publishing books is cheaper than creating an animated TV show, so it wouldn't be held to the same standards.

The literary community has always been more bold, I think because a lot of people view books as some sort of symbol of freedom of speech and want to fight for that. A children's cartoon show wouldn't get the same amount of respect. The idea that a Saturday morning cartoon can be more than just mindless fun for children is still a fairly new concept.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
The literary community has always been more bold, I think because a lot of people view books as some sort of symbol of freedom of speech and want to fight for that.
visual art has been just as bold so i don't understand.......your point......................

A children's cartoon show wouldn't get the same amount of respect.
says who??

The idea that a Saturday morning cartoon can be more than just mindless fun for children is still a fairly new concept.
no.............? i remember being a ~90s kid~ and watching cartoons like batman: tas, batman beyond, x-men, squigglevision (science court!!) etc that was certainly more than mindless entertainment
 
visual art has been just as bold so i don't understand.......your point......................

says who??

no.............? i remember being a ~90s kid~ and watching cartoons like batman: tas, batman beyond, x-men, squigglevision (science court!!) etc that was certainly more than mindless entertainment
Television shows, not the entire visual medium. And there definitely still very much a general public perception of all-age television shows as being mindless entertainment. The key word being general public, not fans who are familiar with the shows.

And TV censors for USA kid programming are generally much more strict about they are willing to air than what most book publishing companies are willing to publish.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
visual art has been just as bold so i don't understand.......your point......................



says who??



no.............? i remember being a ~90s kid~ and watching cartoons like batman: tas, batman beyond, x-men, squigglevision (science court!!) etc that was certainly more than mindless entertainment
General public perception. You may have taken them seriously, and the people who made the shows may have taken them seriously, but the typical 90's mom probably just saw them as silly little shows their little boys watched.

My argument isn't about what is and is not true about these shows, it's public perception of people who have no clue and yet still think they do.

Even when I was still young enough to watch these shows I had girls in my class asking me why I still watched them because they are dumb cartoons. Thank the parents that told them this.

Or when my cousin was asking if people wanted to go see Hoodwinked and his sister refused for no reason other than it was animated. She flat out said she won't watch animated movies because they are all stupid and for children. That's just one example but she's not the only person from around where I grew up that holds this view point by a long shot.

The general public just has not had a lot of respect for cartoons as a valid medium until more recently. And it's still an upward battle.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
General public perception. You may have taken them seriously, and the people who made the shows may have taken them seriously, but the typical 90's mom probably just saw them as silly little shows their little boys watched.

My argument isn't about what is and is not true about these shows, it's public perception of people who have no clue and yet still think they do.

Even when I was still young enough to watch these shows I had girls in my class asking me why I still watched them because they are dumb cartoons. Thank the parents that told them this. .
what parents don't generally tell kids that cartoons are dumb

kids make up that perception themselves

or was it the parents who made pokemon unpopular a year after america found out and made furbies the fucking shit even though they're scary as fuck

Or when my cousin was asking if people wanted to go see Hoodwinked and his sister refused for no reason other than it was animated. She flat out said she won't watch animated movies because they are all stupid and for children. That's just one example but she's not the only person from around where I grew up that holds this view point by a long shot.

The general public just has not had a lot of respect for cartoons as a valid medium until more recently. And it's still an upward battle
i think a few kids who think they have 'grown out of' cartoon animation does not equal the public. i mean yeah, animation age ghetto does exist but would you let your kids sit in front of the tv and watch family guy or american dad? would you plop your seven year old in front of the television so the whole family can watch bob's burgers? would you let children watch ugly americans or south park?

and whether or not people people think of cartoons as a 'valid medium' doesn't change the fact that many (atla itself for example) have deep and complicated storylines: if korra was gay, i don't think people would be like 'oh it's for KIDS it doesn't MATTER' and i think it would sincerely help children growing up and realizing that they don't have crushes on the other boys/girls like the rest of the kids seem to

on that note i have almost 450 notes on my korrasami chat when did this shit happen
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
uuuuuuuuh a lot of people think comics are for babies does that stop things like watchmen from existing???

i don't even get the point unless this is some roundabout way of saying because adults have some warped perception that cartoons are for little kids only that breaking their ass backwards delusion would somehow cause great harm to the makers of the cartoon but i mean

these people are morons who gives a shit, if you want to make a character/tell a story via animation you shouldn't be restricted to what the audiences ~perception~ of what a cartoon should be

and whether or not people people think of cartoons as a 'valid medium' doesn't change the fact that many (atla itself for example) have deep and complicated storylines: if korra was gay, i don't think people would be like 'oh it's for KIDS it doesn't MATTER' and i think it would sincerely help children growing up and realizing that they don't have crushes on the other boys/girls like the rest of the kids seem to
THANK
 
AKA
Rishi
It took a long time for me to realize I had a crush on Adrian Seidelman.

and the fact that he was actually a woman in disguise only amplified the crush.

Damn you Cybersix. Damn you for warping me with your sexy ways.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Aki and Zee: You two have completely missed my point.

Yes, some parents do tell their kids cartoons are for babies time to grow up now and stop watching them. Kids don't just decide that cartoons are for babies especially if the rest of their peers are still watching cartoons.

This isn't about not giving a shit because people disagree with you, it's kind of a matter of being able to sell a product that people will not only like but agree to expose their children to.

And Aki, the shows you just mentioned are in a completely different ballpark because everyone knows they aren't for children. But if something isn't on Fox on Sunday night or on Adult swim or Comedy Central, you can't say that no one thinks it is a silly little kid's show.

And the fact that some shows have deep and meaningful stories doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who don't care because they never watch them and still think they are for children only. People who may limit what their kids watch and convince their children that it really is bad so they should stay away.

A lot of people aren't geeks like us who are into this kind of stuff. They aren't going to think like us or hold the same opinion on Saturday morning cartoons.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
For the company making Korra, Nickelodeon, it is a business venture. If there is a HINT of it being unprofitable due to the angry mom reaction due to stuff like gay and lesbian characters, it might get pulled in a moment, ESPECIALLY since Nickelodeon especially markets itself towards parents as being entirely inoffensive material. Yes, violent cartoons, double standards, blah blah, parents don't care about violence as much as they do sex, and the hint of being gay has been enough to cause epic shitstorms in the past.

Even if the Makers wanted Korra to be lesbian, there's a likely chance the network would have quashed it for no other reason than not wanting to deal with the bullshit they'd get from the reactionary crowd as a result.

Does this in fact suck mightily? Yes. Is it still something that the executives would consider? Also yes.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Aki and Zee: You two have completely missed my point.

Yes, some parents do tell their kids cartoons are for babies time to grow up now and stop watching them. Kids don't just decide that cartoons are for babies especially if the rest of their peers are still watching cartoons.
i never got this from my mom. i never got this from kids on da who suddenly state they hate disney cause it's for children. maybe it's a minnesotan thing i don't fuckin know but generally kids DO ACTUALLY MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES and frequently up and decide 'well that is for babies/children'

And Aki, the shows you just mentioned are in a completely different ballpark because everyone knows they aren't for children. But if something isn't on Fox on Sunday night or on Adult swim or Comedy Central, you can't say that no one thinks it is a silly little kid's show.
your argument was 'the general public does not respect cartoons' more or less, but if that was the case no one would watch animated adults shows because they don't respect them.

i mean no, i can't say that everyone thinks various things are a silly little kids show like madoka which is dark as fucking hell but just because some people are too stupid to sit down and watch it doesn't mean i have to sit here and cater to their stupid ass.

And the fact that some shows have deep and meaningful stories doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who don't care because they never watch them and still think they are for children only. People who may limit what their kids watch and convince their children that it really is bad so they should stay away.

A lot of people aren't geeks like us who are into this kind of stuff. They aren't going to think like us or hold the same opinion on Saturday morning cartoons.
dude kids do not give a fuck if mom or dad says 'its a bad show'. children often have rebellious periods where they watch it for themselves at a friends house or something unless they are so sheltered they are 100% unable to.

what do geeks have to do with gay characters idgi
 
AKA
Rishi
Look at Sailor Moon. It was FILLED with lesbianism, implicit or otherwise, and it was still wildly popular even in the west. If it's a good show it will appeal to kids regardless.
Tennyo said:
Because wizards are held to the same social stigmas as gay couples by an equally sizable group of people?

Just because there were people who don't like Harry Potter doesn't mean there are as many in comparison. Not to mention the fact that publishing books is cheaper than creating an animated TV show, so it wouldn't be held to the same standards.
i wasn't aware there was a social stigma connected to wizards but you know apparently there is. that's kind of the point???

boycotting a book/cartoon/whatever based on something stupid like "promoting witchcraft" or whatever is just as stupid as the gay thing. but it still happens. so why should we not pay attention to what a certain group of stupid people then be hyper-sensitive to what another one does???

but i guess harry potter and sailor moon aren't appealing to children because. people hate gays. and wizards. and nope those aren't two very successful series at all.

i really don't understand what your guy's point is???
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
i wasn't aware there was a social stigma connected to wizards but you know apparently there is. that's kind of the point???

boycotting a book/cartoon/whatever based on something stupid like "promoting witchcraft" or whatever is just as stupid as the gay thing. but it still happens. so why should we not pay attention to what a certain group of stupid people then be hyper-sensitive to what another one does???

but i guess harry potter and sailor moon aren't appealing to children because. people hate gays. and wizards. and nope those aren't two very successful series at all.

i really don't understand what your guy's point is???
Our point is that companies often pull perfectly good shows because they get wind of a demographic boycott that makes them fucking scared of losing money and the bottom line is profitability for these companies.

This is entirely different from Publishers, whose book sales typically go UP with controversies. Television, Books, and Movies are all part of media, but they all play by entirely different unwritten rules, and the unwritten rules really really fucking suck when it comes to TV, especially TV that is perceived as being for kids or kid friendly.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
"controversial kid's shows won't make a profit" they said as 12 year old finn sang about women shaking it for bills in a show aimed at 7-14 year olds
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
i think more people are open minded to things nowadays though. i know that if i had kids and they watched a cartoon that had some gay romance, i wouldn't really care? kids are growing up in families with same sex parents. i think the amount of people who'd throw a fit are few versus the people who actually don't give a fuck.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
"controversial kid's shows won't make a profit" they said as 12 year old finn sang about women shaking it for bills in a show aimed at 7-14 year olds
Zee, you know that thing where you completely ignore the points people make and attack a strawman? You're doing it again.

No one fucking said THEY WON'T.

What we've said is that EXECUTIVES ARE FUCKING MORONS AND THINK THEY WON'T. Adventure time is a step to proving to those execs that they can. Til the execs realize this, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ACT AS THOUGH THEY WON'T.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
Zee, you know that thing where you completely ignore the points people make and attack a strawman? You're doing it again.
no that is the point and i'm pointing out how goddamn stupid it is :' )

Adventure time is a step to proving to those execs that they can. Til the execs realize this, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ACT AS THOUGH THEY WON'T.
and they'll realize this how exactly

when???
 
no that is the point and i'm pointing out how goddamn stupid it is :' )

and they'll realize this how exactly

when???
Yes, we agree that TV Executives and TV Censors are often stupid, that is the frustrating reality more often than not. They change by things like Adventure Time being succesful. But that doesn't mean we should call Bryke cowards for not having a gay or lesbian character in their show.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Yes, we agree that TV Executives and TV Censors are often stupid, that is the frustrating reality more often than not. They change by things like Adventure Time being succesful. But that doesn't mean we should call Bryke cowards for not having a gay or lesbian character in their show.
i don't think anyone called them cowards for it, just mentioned that it would be really nice and that they don't feel that it is such a controversy that it shouldn't happen
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
no that is the point and i'm pointing out how goddamn stupid it is :' )
No, Zee, that is NOT the point anyone was making. Don't pretend it was.

and they'll realize this how exactly

when???
Who the fuck knows. When they learn that the smallest possible imagined controversy won't cause the goddamn world to end?
 
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