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Black Materia Origin the key to my old theory.

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#1
Hello I used to be OminousAngel on Ac.net and had great debates in a thread I made called Master of Puppets there. This was like in 2004-05 so a really long time ago. So Basically I want to do a recap of my theory and explain how the Black Materia was always the missing element to my debate. This is prob gonna be long but before the movie came out I argued that Sephiroth was always in control and that Jenova was his puppet. I know its long been confirmed this is true but some aspects still felt like they had holes in it and I was up against very smart loreverse people that made me think very deeply into this. So sorry this is gonna be pretty long with that said here we go. So what if the Black Materia is actually Jenovas spirit energy or soul ? The planet itself is a living organism and in ff7 there are rules when you die your spirit energy gets recycled and melds with other spirit energy and becomes something new. In the Gi cave and in dirge of cerberus we see deepground only wants pure natural uncorrupted lifestream. Which means Sephiroth/Jenova is basically a lifestream within the lifestream or rather a planet within the planet. Or a virus however you want to see it. This is how he comes back in advent children because he cannot ever be pure normal natural lifestream. And Jenova herself/itself did not need the black materia in the distant past because it already crashed on a meteor in the backstory. So we learn that the cetra where able to defeat Jenova in the past by sealing it into a rock well that rock may have been a physical and spiritual one as well. I think they removed Jenovas soul from her its practically almost immortal flesh and then seperated them from eachother. This is why Jenovas Body is an empty shell. And how Sephiroth is able to Controll it in ff7. Also summons where powerful beings that died and became a materia well Jenovas thing is crashing meteors and during FF7 Sephiroth needs Jenovas foriegn alien knowledge to summon another Meteor. I like this idea because everything flows together and makes more sense this way instead of the black materia just being this dues ex machina plot device. I feel this could be further ellaborated on in the remake saga as well as more info on Jenovas Origins should they ever get into it. Let me know what you think. ( Sorry if textwall of doom im on my phone and I tried to space it all out.)
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#2
Why would Jenova's spirit energy or whatever be in the Lifestream, when it never died in the first place?

It's most worthwhile and well-known trait is that it doesn't die. Even when it's dormant and non-responsive, that doesn't mean it's dead. The Reunion is a testament to its nigh-immortality. It survived being defeated by the Cetra, and while weakened, it was alive, sealed in the planet. That's why Shinra were able to excavate it, and then use use it for experiments while cultivating its cells.

Also, the Black Materia is merely a spell, not a summon. It's the crystallization of knowledge to conjure the most powerful black magic spell in existence. Meteor. A reoccurring black magic type spell in Final Fantasy. It's the ultimate Black Magic, and when invoked using the planet's knowledge, materializes a planetoid capable of causing mass destruction to the planet. It has no purpose or need of explanation. Why does Ultima materia exist? Or Flare? The spell itself is simply the strongest of its type, capable of world destruction due to its immense power.

It's also not really a deus ex machina. More, an Artifact of Doom. And a plot device like that, does not really need further explanation. It's a magical weapon. It exists to destroy.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#3
Ok perhaps soul wasnt the best word. I mean its knowledge and memories. And it would have spirit energy of somesort because think back to the gi cave and or advent children where there is a seperate black lifestream. Even the scene with Sephiroth laughing at how magic is a mysterious power and how he reminices about Hojo saying its basically the knoweldge of the ancients. Im not saying Jenovas Body died at all.IIm saying its mind and or knoweldge was possibly removed and separated from its body otherwise why wouldnt it just comw back to life when Professor Gast uncovered its body ? Why wait for Sephiroth to even exist at all. If it was alive and concious or a mindless killing machine it would of just woke up and resumed what it was doing would it not ? Thank you for challenging my theory though I do appreciate it this is how I was able to figure out all of Advent Children mostly before it came out. The only real hole with this I would say would be Jenovas one line of dialouge in the original game....... But that could easily be explained as Sephiroth controlling Jenova. I personally like this idea I feel it explains alot about why there is only one Black Materia on the planet.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#4
Sorry for another post cant find an edit button....... There is more and multiple versions of every magic type of materia. I feel this explains why this one un natural weapon exists because it is not from giaia it is foriegn spirit energy conciousness a soul a mind knoweldge. It also would explain alot about why Jenovas living dormant body is braindead when Gast finds her. Im not saying im 100% right I wasnt 100% right about everything in the movie when that came out but I was on the right track. Besides Isnt it more interesting to you than its just a natural made doomsday spell weapon ? Magic materia is knowledge of dead people and the ancients where all mostly implied to be in harmony with nature and the natural world jenova being an alien planet eater wpuld def have the knowledge of such a devestating attack as thats how it came to gaia to begin with I just think it fits and makes for a better explaination.
 

Nandemoyasan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Johnny
#5
I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but the way you're formatting your posts makes them unbelievably difficult to read.

It's called "wall of text." Put a space in there somewhere.

Like I'm doing, here. Usually, whenever you change the subject. I'll be more interested in reading your posts, that way. I'm just gonna be that guy. Sorry. :|
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#7
It's probably relevant to your proposal that the books published during the Compilation years refer to Jenova as conscious and working with Sephiroth during FFVII -- so it wasn't (brain)dead before, just inert.

That being said, I will be shocked if the remake doesn't draw an explicit connection between the Meteor spell and Jenova's mode of space travel. As it is, the original cut of Advent Children shows footage of Meteor when Kadaj is talking about Jenova coming to the planet in the distant past.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
#8
Yeah, I low-key assumed that Jenova and the Black Materia were at least loosely connected, too. It's just too convenient that the Ultimate Destructive Magic and one of the worst threats to the planet's life just happened to involve a meteor. And I think it works lorewise too: materia is indeed the crystalization of knowledge, so it makes sense that a materia was "born" out of the most traumatic event the planet ever knew.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#9
Ya, I have not read the full book myself. To me though it makes no sense that Jenova was working with him. Shinra had Jenova for like 30ish years ? And it never did anything until Cloud and crew find it in the Shinra building. My idea at least fills this as a plot hole. Not to mention the Weapons where made i forget either during or after Jenova. Anyways I hope they do or at least explain Jenovas Origins a bit better this time I have always really been curious about its backstory.
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#11
Ya, I have not read the full book myself. To me though it makes no sense that Jenova was working with him. Shinra had Jenova for like 30ish years ? And it never did anything until Cloud and crew find it in the Shinra building. My idea at least fills this as a plot hole. Not to mention the Weapons where made i forget either during or after Jenova. Anyways I hope they do or at least explain Jenovas Origins a bit better this time I have always really been curious about its backstory.
Apparently she/it never did anything but in fact she was spreading her cells in many humans (SOLDIERs) - fooling Shinra scientists in believing she was an Ancient. Her initial plan of destroying the Planet and sucking its life is unfolding. Maybe for an alien parasite 30 years are not that much, she can be million of years old.


As for your Black Materia Theory: most of you seems to forget that the Black Materia is in fact the Temple of the Ancients itself. And the Temple is thousands of years old, dating back to Ancient's civilization long before Jenova's arrival on the planet.

The mural in the Temple are egyptian like and depicts the power of Meteor, so it's very unlikely that this ancestral magic power was created in some ways using Jenova's soul..

No the purpouse of the Temple was that whoever tried to retrieve the Black Materia (the Temple itself) would have been crushed and the spell will never be used.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
#12
As for your Black Materia Theory: most of you seems to forget that the Black Materia is in fact the Temple of the Ancients itself. And the Temple is thousands of years old, dating back to Ancient's civilization long before Jenova's arrival on the planet.
Was it built before Jenova's arrival, though? It's certainly thousands of years old, but so is Jenova. The Ancients/Cetra were very much alive and kicking when Jenova crashed on the planet, they weren't a long-lost civilization yet.
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#13
Was it built before Jenova's arrival, though? It's certainly thousands of years old, but so is Jenova. The Ancients/Cetra were very much alive and kicking when Jenova crashed on the planet, they weren't a long-lost civilization yet.
Yes but it is stated that Jenova spread her virus among Ancients nearly killing all of them and destroying their civilization.

Should we assume that the last survivors first sealed her underground in the North continent then went South to build a whole Temple to hide the black materia just moments before their race estinguished forever?

I don't find that really in line with the idea of the Temple that looks to be conceived like an older sign of their civilization.

Also our knowledge of the events comes from Ifalna's recordings made by her husband Dr. Gast that you can read in Icicle Inn. If really the Black Materia was something originated from Jenova she would have known and told that in her telling of Jenova's story, which is kinda detailed.
 
#14
I never thought there was a connection. Relying on the English translation here that isn't always wise, but in terms of shaping my impressions. It implies that Jenova arrived on a "regular" meteorite. Maybe wiped-out-the-dinosaurs size? While the game refers to the Black Materia summoning a small planet, and Cloud observes "Next time, the wound won't be so small."
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
#15
Well, they weren't all extinguished by Jenova. A good number of them must have survived for Ifalna to be the last "full Cetra" 2000 years later.

I agree that Gast's recordings were probably the best chance for the game to explicitly talk about this (if it's even true, I admit it's just a powerful headcanon that I have). But Ifalna also failed to mention other key plot points that she was probably aware of, such as the purpose of the White Materia that she carried on her person and later passed on to Aeris. In fact, I don’t think she mentions Meteor at all. The Black Materia being a side effect of Jenova’s arrival and forming centuries after it had been confined is not really that relevant to Jenova’s or the Cetra's backstory. It's not like they actually thought someone would ever be able to use it anyway.

I think "small planet" should actually be a more generic "celestial body" or something? Since the word used in Japanese can be used to refer to planets and stars and stuff like that, I think. I'm not saying that Meteor originated from Jenova per se, though, or that there was anything special about the meteorite it used to get there. It's just that it seems too much of a coincidence that the most dangerous materia available on the planet replicates the event that injured the planet the most – and by event I don’t mean Jenova, but the meteor crash. Basically, the Black Materia would have probably still formed even if Jenova hadn’t been on the meteorite.
 
#16
I agree that Gast's recordings were probably the best chance for the game to explicitly talk about this (if it's even true, I admit it's just a powerful headcanon that I have)
I'm interested in knowing what makes you think that what was told on the recordings could have been wrong (not true) ?
 

Aleister

Lv. 1 Adventurer
#17
Well, they weren't all extinguished by Jenova. A good number of them must have survived for Ifalna to be the last "full Cetra" 2000 years later.
Yes that's kinda a plot hole and I hope they elaborate more on Cetra in the remake maybe...
Though I think it's implied that only a small number survived and were gradually forgotten, hiding among humans.
I think it's still unlikely that the survivor buildt the Temple after the calamity.
When you visit it it looks more than 2000 years old... for example the party encounters the spirits of some Ancients (looking like traditional Black mages in the previous FF games) that according to Aeris are so old that even forgot how to speak.

I agree that Gast's recordings were probably the best chance for the game to explicitly talk about this (if it's even true, I admit it's just a powerful headcanon that I have). But Ifalna also failed to mention other key plot points that she was probably aware of, such as the purpose of the White Materia that she carried on her person and later passed on to Aeris. In fact, I don’t think she mentions Meteor at all. The Black Materia being a side effect of Jenova’s arrival and forming centuries after it had been confined is not really that relevant to Jenova’s or the Cetra's backstory. It's not like they actually thought someone would ever be able to use it anyway.
I think that in term of plot development they left out White Materia from Ifalna recordings because you have to discover about it only later...it's the major reveal at the end of the game.. while the Black Materia is an earlier plot point.

I'm not saying that Meteor originated from Jenova per se, though, or that there was anything special about the meteorite it used to get there. It's just that it seems too much of a coincidence that the most dangerous materia available on the planet replicates the event that injured the planet the most – and by event I don’t mean Jenova, but the meteor crash. Basically, the Black Materia would have probably still formed even if Jenova hadn’t been on the meteorite.
I checked the FF wiki entry for White Materia and it states:
Long ago, the Cetra were given two gifts from the Planet: the Black Materia, which had the power to destroy, and the White Materia, which had the power to protect. Being peaceful people, the Cetra embraced the power of the White Materia and rejected the Black, sealing it away by transforming it into a complex, booby-trapped, labyrinthine temple that became known as the Temple of the Ancients.
I don't know if this is confirmed by some dialogue in the game or the Compilation or has a backstory on Ultimania or something...
But that seems to leave out the possibility that the Black Materia originated after the "calamity from the sky" destroyed Ancient's civilization...
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
#18
I'm interested in knowing what makes you think that what was told on the recordings could have been wrong (not true) ?
Ah, sorry, I wasn't very clear. As headcanon I only meant the part about Jenova's involuntary involvement in creating the Black Materia. I think Ifalna is our best source on these matters so far.

Regarding that quote from the FF wiki, welp, didn't know about that. I don't remember anything like that in the game, but that does seem to rule it out in a way. What kind of gift is that though :P The planet is not very smart.

I agree that the intricacies of the Cetra's survival/blending in with normal humans were left a bit vague in the OG. I think and hope that we get more info on them in general, but at the same time, I wouldn't mind if they remained mostly shrouded in mystery, to amplify that sense of waste and loss for something that can never be fully regained.
 
#19
Sephiroth's description of "your ancestors," if we're to take at least that part as accurate, would describe all humans as descended from Cetra. They just lost their connection to the planet along the way. But obviously it is Aerith's genetics that grant her that connection. So I guess it's kind of a homosapiens/neanderthal thing (on a WAY faster timescale). Regular humans diverged from Cetra (though not enough to prevent interbreeding) and whatever allowed proper Cetra their connection to the planet became so diffused in mixing with regular humans they ceased to be as a different breed. And Ifalna's line was the last to maintain enough Cetra genetics to demonstrate that connection.

And also there is a 0% chance Square put this much thought into it :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#20
I don't know if this is confirmed by some dialogue in the game or the Compilation or has a backstory on Ultimania or something...
But that seems to leave out the possibility that the Black Materia originated after the "calamity from the sky" destroyed Ancient's civilization...
That paragraph on the Wiki most definitely doesn't come from any official source. It may yet prove accurate, of course, but right now it's just the conjecture of whoever edited the Wiki page.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#21
The temple could have been made afterwards though. Which is why the gaurdians inside made it the way they did just saying therr where some cetra left and they dwindled down to 1 by the time of ff7 but this is all speculation. As for omega that was pure giaia lifestream if it crashed into a new planet i imagine it would of reverted to spirit energy. All is speculation. But then again hojo would of been controlling it so who knows.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#22
Seriously wish there was an edit button lol. Anyways im gonna refine all this and write down everything that goes with it because there is alot of info. Im trying to guess what they are going to do with the remake based on stuff from the original game. Which is the point of all thia stuff.
 

Nandemoyasan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Johnny
#23
And also there is a 0% chance Square put this much thought into it :monster:
I think the people you're wanting to address this to are named Kazushige Nojima and Yoshinori Kitase. They're the ones who wrote the backstory materials for Final Fantasy VII.

Also the bit about The Planet giving the Cetra the White and Black Materias is not something I've ever read anywhere in FF7, but with all the compilation shenanigans, I wouldn't be surprised if it was in there somewhere. Nojima was also the scenario writer for Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core, and Advent Children, so he's kinda the guru of all this.

I do think it's weird that "The Capital P Planet" just sharted them out at the Cetra and said "here, go nuts," but then, old mythologies are full of absolutes that no longer seem as viable in a world filled with peer-reviewed scientific knowledge. Isn't it weird, though, that the more we learn about existence, the more various it seems? Like, old mythologies presume a lot of constants that we now know to not be constant, particularly with the concept of 'creation' and 'destruction.'

There's a scientific principle called the conservation of matter/energy theorem, which states that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, but just converted into other forms of matter/energy. If you set a log on fire, it becomes smoke, gas, ash, and other stuff, but it isn't technically just removed from existence.
 

Kinggamington

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
OminousAngel
#24
Na its just based on the lore. It might not even be right but its fun I just dont have time to finish it right now. Seems im not all that welcome here though so maybee ill go elsewhere with it.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#25
Na its just based on the lore. It might not even be right but its fun I just dont have time to finish it right now. Seems im not all that welcome here though so maybee ill go elsewhere with it.
You're definitely welcome here, and I'm glad you brought up the idea. As I mentioned above, I'll be surprised if a more explicit connection isn't drawn between Meteor and Jenova's meteor this time around.
 
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