ChaosBringers, Reborn!

[Arianna]

The problem with considering Dirge of Cerberus a replacement for a 'Case of...' story is that - it only enhances and refreshes my wish to beat Vincent in the head with a blunt object.

I (would like to) refuse to believe all Vincent Valentine did was mope around Lucrecia's cave; granted, he's a man of deep thought and deep feelings, as much as he acts cold on the outside, but - geez... *sigh*

Nothing new said there; and, I should not talk, as I too have had my long, long, long time(s) of moping and being in deep internal discovery and struggle.

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg30795#msg30795 date=1237141651]And do we really want Vincent voiced by a Backstreet Boy? Do you honestly think Sephiroth being in KH did any justice for the character?[/quote]

As much as Kingdom Hearts had it's pros and cons, I still cannot think seriously when it comes to the Final Fantasy characters that made an appearance in any of the games.

Truth be told, though, I wouldn't mind finding out how Nomura would have used Vincent if he was within the Kingdom Hearts story - somewhere. At best, I think it would be similar to how Auron was used in KHII. That's my twisted sense of curiousity, I guess.

As for voice acting, I think that Lance Bass did a decent job for Sephiroth in the first Kingdom Hearts, though I, for one, could not really hear him that well. 'Decend Heartless Angel' did sound like 'Sin Havest'...

[quote author=VivaLaValenwind link=topic=221.msg30757#msg30757 date=1237127063]Now that you mention it him and D are kinda similar They're both dark and mysterious and...have capes! Cept' D really is a vampire [/quote]

D's cape is really his coat; Vincent's the one with the real cape. But yeah, I wonder if D's a 'prototype' Vincent for the creators of the characters/storyline? That would be interesting to learn about...

 

[VivaLaValenwind]

Why yes...YES I DO THINK IT WOULD DO HIM JUSTICE since Cloud snuck into his damn room and stole his cape and claw while Vin was sleeping! And no matter what the voice acting is going to be a piece of crap, actually maybe it would be intersting to see a backstreet boy voice vincent instead of blum who makes vincent sound like a chain smoker. My thoughts are yes Disney and Square together is semi retarded and semi brilliant. I don't know if you've played the game or not but it was actually quite good. I refused to play it for 3-4 years cause of the disney cast but i think SE put it together well. With that said i don't mean for Vincent to tag along with Donald or Goofy, Sora maybe but anywho....Maybe D was an inspiration to make Vincent. If i'm correct the book was made in the 1980's?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The problem with considering Dirge of Cerberus a replacement for a 'Case of...' story is that - it only enhances and refreshes my wish to beat Vincent in the head with a blunt object.

I (would like to) refuse to believe all Vincent Valentine did was mope around Lucrecia's cave; granted, he's a man of deep thought and deep feelings, as much as he acts cold on the outside, but - geez... *sigh*

Vincent did not do nothing but mope around Lucrecia's cave in DoC. He dreamt of her, which was incredibly understandable given that suddenly after 33 years her name has come up again amongst society. Actually, he was only physically in her cave once in that game, and that was at the end. The intro may have been a flashback to an actual occurrence, or it may have been a flashback to a dream he had.

And yeah, the ultimania marks her cave on the map and says that he goes there often. He loves her. And I'm sure he misses her. And considering that he loves her, and that he visits her cave frequently and speaks to her, I'm willing to bet this brings him a certain amount of solace. I don't know why you would begrudge him that. People go to graves and speak to dead loved ones, or to coma patients in hospitals. Is this despicable also?

You have a personal vendetta against VincentXLucrecia and I thought you agreed to drop it. That is how Vincent feels and I don't know why you want to change him yet still consider yourself a fan of the character.

Why yes...YES I DO THINK IT WOULD DO HIM JUSTICE since Cloud snuck into his damn room and stole his cape and claw while Vin was sleeping!

It was a nod to Vincent and that's good enough. Better, IMO, since it means Vincent himself will be left out of that clusterfuck. At least he got the nod.


Lol, I don't know why you all want MOAR VINCENT but then when you get him you complain he's not to your liking. Perhaps what you're fans of isn't the actual character, but your own skewed versions of the character who you've molded to suit your personal needs and desires.

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg30874#msg30874 date=1237173657]You have a personal vendetta against VincentXLucrecia and I thought you agreed to drop it. That is how Vincent feels and I don't know why you want to change him yet still consider yourself a fan of the character.[/quote]

Ravynne, dear, my patience is at it's end. While you have valid, extremely very valid points, you are throwing things in my face which is inciteful and rude. I'm being nice, but I'm getting pissed off.

My thoughts regarding Vincent Valentine's MOPING ABOUT is not an attack on his love for Lucrecia.

But let us think about this - for three years he was up and about, consistently drudging on about what happened thirty some years ago. Or, so this is what it seems to have been the case according to Dirge of Cerberus. He wasn't merely visiting, and he wasn't just having moments of sadness - he was perpetually concentrating his life on the whole matter which was out of his hands years ago.

Granted the character could not see this, it's his way. He felt obliged to do something, as he was her protector, as well as he deeply loved her.

Take the original game, if you recall speaking to him any time during the last travels aboard the Highwind and/or in the Northern Cave, it is true that Vincent seems to have already come to some conclusions regarding Lucrecia, the group he was presently with, etc.

More proof of SE's - gods, I cannot think of the word, but basically they are changing the story, even if slightly. As I recall it, they didn't place Vincent and Yuffie in the ending sequence due to being behind schedule.

My view on Lucrecia's character was that SE totally killed her in Dirge of Cerberus. I really hate what they did to her personality; truly I never thought she was so pathetic in the original game. Even there, she seemed to understand her choices and was only focused on her child and his welfare. She was bland, to say the least.

Of course, I feel the whole storyline of the game needed to be fleshed out more.

Ravynne, PLEASE understand, that I feel there are a lot of psychological stuff coming out on my end. Since it deals with the characters, so be it - it's here. This happens at times, to everyone, everywhere. But I feel you're being spiteful just throwing it back in my face; perhaps you are not, perhaps you are serving a purpose as well as defending your love of VinLu.

That's fine. I just feel you are purposely trying to attack me. That's not fine.

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg30874#msg30874 date=1237173657]People go to graves and speak to dead loved ones, or to coma patients in hospitals. Is this despicable also?[/quote]

This is not despicable; but if it came to envelope one's entire life - it is definitely a problem. If they were so emotionally withdrawn and socially inept due to it, it is definitely a problem. I can say I speak from experience!

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg30874#msg30874 date=1237173657]Lol, I don't know why you all want MOAR VINCENT but then when you get him you complain he's not to your liking. Perhaps what you're fans of isn't the actual character, but your own skewed versions of the character who you've molded to suit your personal needs and desires.
[/quote]

Quite honestly, they fucked up his character, that's why.

And before I go on further, since you are so much better a fan of Vincent Valentine than the rest of us poor and decrepid souls, please enlighten us with your highly superior knowledge. I do not appreciate your patronizing.

In the original game, he was not so - dreary. He appreciated (at least come the end) the people who he fought along side of, and they appreciated him.

He didn't go walking off, telling people not to call him, acting like it was a bother to get together with them, for need or not. Yes, he was in deep thought, and held deep flowing feelings for many things (Lucrecia is a main subject there, if not the main subject), but he wasn't delved so far into those subjects every moment.

Yes, he stood to the side, but he didn't ignore people when they came to him for anything. He was solemn, and wise; he was aloof, but caring and watchful - a true protector.

I don't believe he forgot that Lucrecia did what she did to herself, and to her unborn child. Vincent was trying to plead with Hojo to stop when he saw that she was so very sick due to the Jenova cells. I believe that is when he actually tried to interfere. He couldn't persuade her and he got mortally wounded; he couldn't abide by the fact that the situation was out of his control (which frustrated and angered him, within deep sadness for his love.) I think more so, he was frustrated with himself for not explaining to her that he was truly in love with her.

He proposed, but either because she didn't allow him (due to her memories of Grimoire; this is what seems to have been shown in Dirge of Cerberus) or had an inability to express himself, he wasn't given the opportunity to say what was in his heart. Personally, I believe that is the reason why he was so obsessed.

I do believe Vincent Valentine is a man of few words, but when he speaks, they have much meaning. Also, I feel one of Vincent's quirks is that he needs the knowledge that he's been heard - perhaps not listened to, but at the very least heard, and well.

Granted, I do have to agree with you, that with any fictional or factual person we feel a spark of connection to is for a personal reason. That can also help us (sometimes hinder us) see the person in question in a unique and individualistic view point. Some traits will stand on their own per person, others will be agreed upon by a large group as a common factor. I don't see this as inherently bad; nor do I feel anyone here has such a skewed viewpoint (as you put it) that Vincent Valentine becomes unrecognizable to anyone else.

I do have my reasons, as you do have yours, for how we each see Vincent.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The character was built in our heads upon assumptions before. Some were correct. Some were not. Some people have trouble letting go of what they thought was correct and was later proven not to be. Some people are able to allow their fandom to grow with the character and accept the changes that have come to light.

I won't bother going into it further. It's not worth my energy. I'll just take my leave.

 

[Mantichorus]

...Words...fail me. So, I won't try. Please, Ari, Ravy, solve this between yourselves. If either of you needs to talk, I'm willing to listen, as this must be taking it's toll on both of you.

There is a simple theory as to why D looks like Vincent. Ready? Yoshitaka Amano did the original art for both of them. Rawr.

Actually, we know some of what Vincent was doing before AC, due to AC itself and an early piece of Japanese promo material. OK, I've lost the promo material, so I'll start with that first...

1) This was before the names Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz were made public, so this is the translated wording as I remember it. It said that Vincent was "conducting his own investigation into the enigmatic Silver Haired Men". So, Vincent was investigating Kadaj's gang. This pretty much explains his comments to Cloud about what they are and the nature of Geostigma (something which I'd guess even M.D.s don't know, considering how badly it seems to be taking everyone). Perhaps this leads into the second thing we know...

2) Vincent saves Tseng and Elena from Kadaj's gang (sometime during AC - due to their appearances at the end of the film, I'd guess he saves them shortly after they were captured). Whether it was from them that he learnt about Jenova's head, or due to his own investigations, is debatable. But he might have saved Tseng and Elena because...

3) "I come here often." One throw-away line, saying a lot. Why on earth/Gaea is Vincent hanging around the City of the Ancients? Well, maybe it's to do with my first point, with him following Kadaj's gang. But maybe not. Let me retype that - "I come here often". Maybe there's a memorial near there for Aerith that Vincent watches over. He strikes me as the sort who takes it upon himself to honour the dead (taken to the extreme in my fic "Remembrance" where he even makes headstones for Sephiroth and Hojo).

Just my thoughts...

 

[VivaLaValenwind]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg30874#msg30874 date=1237173657]

Lol, I don't know why you all want MOAR VINCENT but then when you get him you complain he's not to your liking. Perhaps what you're fans of isn't the actual character, but your own skewed versions of the character who you've molded to suit your personal needs and desires.

Well i once read somewhere that fans were going to Tetsuya Nomura for something, probably autograph signing I'm not sure, but one fan asked him about how many girlfriends did Sephiroth have? Nomura's response was basically how should i know you're the fan so you decide. Basically we ALL have our own versions of a character thats why theres such things as fanfiction and fanart. And we all know of course that fanfiction REALLY doesnt take place and fanarts are just interpretations thats why the word "fan" is attached to it. I don't really believe that theres any one correct way to view a character if there was then there wouldn't be any fun to it at all. With that being said I do respect your wishes not to see Vincent in another game but that doesnt mean that any other people's opinions of wanting to see him more are skewed or deranged. Plus I already have too many complaints about dirge of cerberus, wtf did they do to his hair in the gameplay? IT'S DISGUSTING!! XD

[quote author=Manti link=topic=221.msg31378#msg31378 date=1237316797]

2) Vincent saves Tseng and Elena from Kadaj's gang (sometime during AC - due to their appearances at the end of the film, I'd guess he saves them shortly after they were captured). Whether it was from them that he learnt about Jenova's head, or due to his own investigations, is debatable. But he might have saved Tseng and Elena because...
[/quote]

Man i've been wanting to actually SEE this part in advent children, i'm hoping that they'll but it in the complete version

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg31186#msg31186 date=1237251380]I won't bother going into it further. It's not worth my energy. I'll just take my leave.
[/quote]

You are quite welcome to stay in the group, and you know that Ravynne (or should, I feel.)

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Arianna link=topic=221.msg31523#msg31523 date=1237337390]
[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg31186#msg31186 date=1237251380]I won't bother going into it further. It's not worth my energy. I'll just take my leave.
[/quote]

You are quite welcome to stay in the group, and you know that Ravynne (or should, I feel.)
[/quote]Well, even if she does leave, I think we should try to bring her back. Place won't be the same without her.

To misquote Firefly: "Once you've been in Chaosbringers, you never leave. You just learn to live there."

 

[Kamui]

Lovely, I leave for five minutes, and the whole club goes to hell in a hand basket. *hugs everyone in the club* There's a reason we're all friends, so please don't leave Ravy. You're like the big sister I never had.

As to the topic at hand that Manti pointed out, I agree about point three. The first two make sense since those were confirmed in AC at least in part. As to point three it does seem to be keeping in character. I suspect that he's what I call the 'back man' and in fact he is probably the 'back man'. The quiet one, who's the strongest in the group who always is last in line despite his ability to keep up with the pack. The 'back man' stays back and watches the group, they take the responsibility for the group's safety. When the group departs, the 'back man' takes care of those who've fallen.

 

[Mantichorus]

Nakama

"Nakama" is a Japanese term that describes, roughly, the members of a group who are as close as real family would be because of the circumstances under which the group of companions find themselves. "Comrades", "brothers in arms", crew, team, posse, war buddies, and clique are also nearly synonymous.

The members of the group may not necessarily like each other, but know they can depend upon each other in crisis. The relationship is often considered as "more pure", or deeper than mere friendship, but more innocent than romance. After one helps another in danger, gratitude is often dismissed with "Think Nothing Of It — you would have done it for me."

On what Kam said about what I said... well, I agree, but agreeing with her when she was agreeing with me seems... confusing. And arrogant.

EDIT

I've started work on a third chapter for one of my fanfics, and Vincent plays a prominent role. I've put a thread for it to be beta read here: http://forums.thelifestream.net/writing-art/beta-readers-wanted-blood-feud-iii/

I'd like to hear your opinions.

 

[Arianna]

[quote author=Steppenwolf link=topic=221.msg32012#msg32012 date=1237489828]
[quote author=Arianna link=topic=221.msg31523#msg31523 date=1237337390]
[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=221.msg31186#msg31186 date=1237251380]I won't bother going into it further. It's not worth my energy. I'll just take my leave.
[/quote]

You are quite welcome to stay in the group, and you know that Ravynne (or should, I feel.)
[/quote]Well, even if she does leave, I think we should try to bring her back. Place won't be the same without her.[/quote]

While I agree with you that this place will not be the same without Ravynne's insight to some parts regarding Vincent, it's her choice whether she wishes to come or go. I'm sorry Manti, but I feel it's best if we let her sort things out and come back to us on her own accord.

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Arianna link=topic=221.msg32403#msg32403 date=1237568855]While I agree with you that this place will not be the same without Ravynne's insight to some parts regarding Vincent, it's her choice whether she wishes to come or go. I'm sorry Manti, but I feel it's best if we let her sort things out and come back to us on her own accord.[/quote]*sigh* OK. Humans and their variences confuse me sometimes. As long as she knows she can come back home.

Just for hilarity's sake (we need more hilarity here: STAT!), I'm going to post the link to TVTropes FFVII page.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinalFantasyVII
Just look at what Vincent's listed under:
>Optional party member.
>Involuntary Shapeshifting
>Badass Longcoat
>Ensemble Darkhorse
>I Want My Beloved To Be Happy ("almost word for word", they note)

 

[Kamui]

I love the one for Mad Scientist: Hojo, oh god Hojo.

Anyway, thanks for the link onii-chan. But I just came up with a picture of Vincent in a trench coat. But I've constantly wondered if Vincent enjoys any other alcoholic beverages besides wine. I ran this by my mom and we came up with something insanely random:

(Vincent & Verdot go into a bar)

Ve: We'll take two martinis, shaken not stirred.
Vi: Must you still be quoting that movie.
Ve: I'm not quoting anything, I want two martinis shaken not stirred.
Vi: Fine. Do you expect me to drink one?
Ve: No Mr. Valentine, I expect you to die.


Anyway that was random, and it was pretty funny at the time.

 

[Arianna]

Why did this make me crack up so, I have no clue! Anyhow, Dirge of Cerberus had a glitch - or could it be a strategic device?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXoNmff18HE&feature=related"]YouTube - FFVIIC - Vincent Hitchhiking a Ride on Gargoyle[/ame]

If someone wishes to, try this and see if it works. But yes, it made me crack up at first. Just jump onto the back of a perched gargoyle...

Re: Ravynne - Manti, everyone, I have tried to talk with her and she's just not talking. I will be giving her one last note here and elsewhere allowing her to know she's still welcome here; but, please, let's respect she needs some space right now.

What is TV Tropes? Also, Kamui - yeah, that was a good one regarding Hojo. There's really nothing more than need be said 'cept his name...

 

[Mantichorus]

TVTropes basically is a wikia project that lists a bunch of cliches in anime/manga, comics, live action TV, films, cartoons, games, etc., and is mostly done for laughs. It also has sidelines from the main articles - wild mass guessing (some serious guesses, some for fun) and "it just bugs me" are two. It's hugely entertaining. It's how I was spending much of my time between ACF crashing and joining here...

Kam, that sounds about right for you and your mum. Very funny.

Ari, I'll have to check that vid out on Saturday. As it is, it's taken me an HOUR just to get relogged in and reset my password... *shake fist*

And, OK, I'll give Ravy some space. Hope she does rejoin us, though...

 

[VivaLaValenwind]

Oh snaps! I want to try that on DOC now! I actually think thats pretty cool Anyways someone wanna give me an idea for a Vincent pose? I wanna do a full body speed paint!

 

[Mantichorus]

Well Viva, what sort of pose do you want? Heroic, tragic, badass? XD

I had an idea in my head yeeeeears ago that never came to anything (due to my crapy art skillz), that had Vincent kneeling, face down, in a river of blood, with a spectral Chaos (this was pre-DC, so it was demon!Chaos, not bishie!Chaos) looming over him.

So, if you (or anyone) wants to use that for a pic, go ahead. *shrugs* No odds to me, it's just collecting dust in my head.

Again, I'll ask for some feedback on my story: http://forums.thelifestream.net/showthread.php?t=701
FFVIIAU, the main of it is Zack and Vincent scrapping.

 

[VivaLaValenwind]

Well Viva, what sort of pose do you want? Heroic, tragic, badass? XD

I had an idea in my head yeeeeears ago that never came to anything (due to my crapy art skillz), that had Vincent kneeling, face down, in a river of blood, with a spectral Chaos (this was pre-DC, so it was demon!Chaos, not bishie!Chaos) looming over him.

So, if you (or anyone) wants to use that for a pic, go ahead. *shrugs* No odds to me, it's just collecting dust in my head.

Again, I'll ask for some feedback on my story: http://forums.thelifestream.net/showthread.php?t=701
FFVIIAU, the main of it is Zack and Vincent scrapping.

oooohs i like that idea, we'll see how painting chaos goes...i can hardly draw him/it/thing

 

[Arianna]

Really nothing special from me...

I've rated my thread, as my thread is 'da bomb'! :p

Regarding Ravynne, I have not heard back from her - so please don't ask.

I can see why they modified Chaos!Vincent some from the original game. Truly, it was too much of a difference, though I guess it could happen - using the imagination and human anatomy - or what little I know of it. DoC's vision of Chaos!Vincent blends Chaos and Vincent - showing them as one and the same, though they are separate beings.

 

[Mantichorus]

It was just a suggestion, Viva! You don't have to do it! Ahh, now I feel teh guilt...

Yeah, I can see why they changed the look of Chaos and Galian Beast (and dropped Hellmasker and Death Gigas from DC), but I really like their original looks - actually, scrub that, I actually prefer the DC Galian Beast over the VII one. But with Chaos...eh, it's in part sour grapes, in that I had a real mythology for Chaos waiting to be written (he predates the Fall - as in, Lucifer falling from Heaven).

...Oh, and I'll have to check out that vid next Saturday. Library was being renovated... internet cafe shut down... and anywhere else advertising themselves as internet cafes? Normal cafes with wi-fi link up. Note to self: Manti needs to get his ass in gear and buy a laptop.

 

[VivaLaValenwind]

It was just a suggestion, Viva! You don't have to do it! Ahh, now I feel teh guilt...

Yeah, I can see why they changed the look of Chaos and Galian Beast (and dropped Hellmasker and Death Gigas from DC), but I really like their original looks - actually, scrub that, I actually prefer the DC Galian Beast over the VII one. But with Chaos...eh, it's in part sour grapes, in that I had a real mythology for Chaos waiting to be written (he predates the Fall - as in, Lucifer falling from Heaven).

Haha why do you feel bad for? I'm gonna try to do it eventually as soon as i figure out how to draw Chaos better. But yeah i also like the new Galian Beast Tis so very detailed compared to FFVII's which just looked like a cheap montster you'd fight on the world map :/ But i have to disagree with you on Chaos cause i really like the DC one despite him being a bitch-ass to draw (^^) I especially like his...head piece..thingamabobber. Thing i don't understand is whered his pants go? Cause they seemed to fuse with his...skin?

 

[Mantichorus]

Well, I felt bad for suggesting a subject for your pic that you'd have trouble with. But, if you really wanna go for it, more power to ya.

VII Galian Beast = were-behemoth. The only reason you like the DC Chaos is 'cause he's more bishie. I like how demonic the VII Chaos looked, but I can see why they changed the look of Chaos for DC. It must have made animating him/it easier.

Hmm, before the game came out, I wrote a short fic (lost now, the file corrupted and the site it was on taken down), I had the headdress thingy actually be formed out of his hair and headband - i.e. it became a bone like structure. Likewise, the cape ripped and warped into wings. I think Chaos actually has no clothing, but Vincent's clothing becomes its skin.

 

[Kamui]

I made a SOLDIER vid to "Away From the Sun" by 3 Doors Down. Which sparked me to want to make another Vincent video. I read the bit about Galian Beast and Chaos in the thread and I want to make one to "Hungry Like the Wolf" by Duran Duran or to "Goodnight Demonslayer" by Voltaire or to "The Road I Must Travel" by The Nightwatchmen. I think I may do the last one since the song fits him. He just seems like the guy who wander around just for the pure sake of being able to.

As to where the pants go, I'm not sure I entirely want to know what happens there. I'll be happy with the fanservice.

 

[Arianna]

I have to admit, I was looking when Vincent changed into both Galian and Chaos - how SE would handle the obvious points of anatomy. With Galian, the cape becomes a loin-cloth sort of thing and with Chaos - well, it seems that he has a guard, and then dare I say it looks misty down there. :p I'm so bad, I know.

Truly, since I am an adult, when I draw and/or write - I do what I feel would be natural. Honestly, with all the twists and turns and ups and downs these guys do - something's gonna show. I mean, it may be quick, it may be not on purpose, but whatever the case, and if it's seen... There you have it. So - fanservice or not, I like to go with reality.