Cid contradicts the timeline?

When you ask Cid to tell you about the rocket, upon first meeting him...

Cid Highwind said:
“You know Shinra developed
a lot of technological gadgets
during the meaningless war, right?”
“Now it's a Mako company,
but in the old days it
was a weapons manufacturer.”

“Well,
they came up with a Rocket Engine.”

“There was so much excitement about
the thought of going into outer space.
Our dreams got bigger and bigger.”

“They put a major budget into it
and made prototype after prototype!
Finally, they completed Shinra No. 26.”
“They chose the best pilot in Shinra…
no, in the world--me.
I mean, come on.”

“And finally we get to the day of the launch.
Everything was goin' well…”

“But, because of that dumb-ass Shera,
the launch got messed up.
That's why they became so anal!”

“And so, Shinra nixed
their outer space exploration plans.”
“After they told me
how the future was Space Exploration
and got my damn hopes up…DAMN THEM!”

“Then, it was all over once they
found out Mako energy was profitable.

They didn't even so much as
look at space exploration.”

“Money, moola, dinero!
My dream was just a financial
number for them!”

The way that Cid phrases things, he makes it sound like the rocket was a result of a pre-Mako era. But the failed rocket launch happened in [ ν ] – εуλ 0003 (which would be [ μ ] – εуλ 2003), only about four years before the original game takes place. Mako energy was discovered in 1959 and the first cost-effective Mako Reactor was constructed in 1968. This does not at all match up with Cid's story that the space program was cancelled because "they found out Mako was profitable". Mako had already been profitable for 35 years.

In case errors in translation are to blame, here is the Japanese line for anybody to analyze.
「長くてくだらない戦争中に
 神羅カンパニーがいろんな技術を
 開発したのは知ってんだろ?」
「今は魔晄屋だが、むかしは
 兵器開発会社だったからな」

「そんなかでよ、ロケットエンジンが
 できちまったんだ」

「こりゃ宇宙へ行けるってんで大騒ぎよ。
 夢はどんどん広がった」

「予算もバカスカつぎこんで
 試作、試作、また試作!
 で、完成したのが、この神羅26号」
「パイロットには神羅一、いや世界一の
 ウデを持つオレ様が選ばれた。
 ま、当然と言えば当然だわな」

「いよいよ迎えた打ち上げの日。
 何もかも上手くいってた」

「ところがあのノロマのシエラのせいで
 打ち上げはおじゃん。
 それがケチのつきはじめよ」

「神羅は宇宙開発計画をすてやがった」
「あれだけ、これからは宇宙だ!
 な~んて言って
 希望持たせてやがったクセによっ!」

「魔晄エネルギーが金になると
 わかったらもう終わりだ。
 宇宙計画なんて誰も見向きもしねえ」


「かね、金、カネだぁ?
 オレ様の夢をソロバンかんじょうだけで
 ぼうにふるない!」


Thoughts about this?


Sources:
- Complete Timeline of the Compilation
- Deepground's History Revealed <--this is where I got the date for the first efficient Mako reactor, I don't know where in turn S&G got that date from
 

Kermitu Kleric Katie

KULT OF KERMITU
PLOT HOLE!

EDIT: Here's what Google translate put:
During the war and trashy as long "
Shinra Company the various technology
It was developed to wonder you know? "
It's Mako ya "now, old
Na because it was weapons development company "

I or in such ", the rocket engine
I was able Chima~tsu "

I fuss at me do go into space shit ".
Dream was getting bigger and bigger. "

Invested in Bakasuka also "budget
Experimental prototype, also prototype,!
In, and was completed, the Shinra No. 26 "
God from one to "pilot, yea world
I like with arms was chosen.
Also, Do not I deserve Speaking for granted "

The day of the launch, which celebrated finally ".
I was going well everything "

Because of the Sierra of that oaf "But
To fall through the launch.
It start with the stingy "

"God wanted Luo Ya discard the space program"
"It just, it is the universe from now on!
In and said do-Na
And depending on the habit of wanted Ya have to have hope! "

"Mako energy goes gold
Reach the end of the road Once you know.
Nobody Mimuki Nante space program neither "


I guess ", gold, §'s money?
Just abacus account the dream of my own
You do not throw away! "
 
Cid doesn't really know anything about, or care about, what's going on outside the world of Rocket Town. He's uncouth. He went to Midgar once and went to see "some famous play" and fell asleep. All that really mattered to him was his dream.

People who live through periods of history often have very little idea of what actually happened and can be very inaccurate sources. If you know some people who were alive when the Berlin Wall came down, see if they can remember what year that happened in.

Anyway, my point is that mako energy could have been going on for years without Cid really noticing. He's got a bee in his bonnet that Shinra dropped the space program because of their interest in mako energy, but that doesn't mean he's right, and he doesn't need to be - it doesn't make any difference to the plot.

You may have noticed that Cid blames everything around him for the failure of his dream: Shera, Shinra, mako energy....
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I looked at the Japanese and the English line is accurate. It could be a writing oversight/plot hole, but I like Licorice's explanation.

As far as Cid was concerned, if Shin-Ra gave up "the great dream" it was because they decided something was more profitable. The truth as it's revealed in Before Crisis, of course, is that President Shinra only funded the matter for symbolic purposes as a show of Shin-Ra's strength.

One thing I notice between Before Crisis and FFVII is that Cid is perfectly willing to lie to himself when it comes to his dream. In Before Crisis, Rufus thought the space program was a complete waste of money and personally told Cid as much. But just four years later when Cid hears that the new president is coming to town, he's got himself convinced that Rufus is coming to reinvigorate the space program because "a young president is what we need" and "he's still got dreams too."
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
I looked at the Japanese and the English line is accurate. It could be a writing oversight/plot hole, but I like Licorice's explanation.

As far as Cid was concerned, if Shin-Ra gave up "the great dream" it was because they decided something was more profitable. The truth as it's revealed in Before Crisis, of course, is that President Shinra only funded the matter for symbolic purposes as a show of Shin-Ra's strength.

One thing I notice between Before Crisis and FFVII is that Cid is perfectly willing to lie to himself when it comes to his dream. In Before Crisis, Rufus thought the space program was a complete waste of money and personally told Cid as much. But just four years later when Cid hears that the new president is coming to town, he's got himself convinced that Rufus is coming to reinvigorate the space program because "a young president is what we need" and "he's still got dreams too."

It was Cid's dream, and I don't think even in VII it was alluded to as beyond Cid's dream. Still, it was important to Palmer; he did stand up for it, if you recall
the meeting scene in Shin-Ra headquarters
.
 

Jiro

Average Jiro
Just look at him as an unreliable narrator. Mako is still the reason the Space Program got shelved - why invest all that money and not even launch? - but Cid doesn't want to feel like it was his stopping of the launch that crushed his dream.
 

SirVival

Pro Adventurer
One thing I notice between Before Crisis and FFVII is that Cid is perfectly willing to lie to himself when it comes to his dream. In Before Crisis, Rufus thought the space program was a complete waste of money and personally told Cid as much. But just four years later when Cid hears that the new president is coming to town, he's got himself convinced that Rufus is coming to reinvigorate the space program because "a young president is what we need" and "he's still got dreams too."

I think this is just a mistake caused by the rather long time between the games, as I don't think Cid as such a straightforward character would do that. Probably the compilation has more stuff like this, where the things don't match. Yes for sure you can interpret it however you want, actually it even makes sense and would make a nice character flaw, but still I think they just forgot about this. I mean it would be impossible to connect all the ties.
 
Actually, I thought that was one of the bits of BC that the scriptwriters did rather well.


Rufus
I don’t care about this outer space stuff. My interests lie firmly on the ground. Our company should be there too.

Cid
Keh. Yer so young, but so cynical. Not like yer pop – that man's got dreams, see! He built the company from the ground up. See, the scope's of your respective visions is different, the scope!

Rufus
Hmph. Cid… Let’s drop the talk about my father, hmm?


I can totally picture Cid, four and a half years later, persuading himself that young Rufus took his words to heart. He has to pin his hopes on something! I think it's perfectly believable that he would cling to the hope that Rufus has seen the light regarding the space program.
 
(Slowpoke response)

I very much enjoy seeing how different my response is compared to what LicoriceAllsorts writes. Her instinct, as well as that of many other member here, is to deduce what part of Cid's personality could make sense of this mistake in the script on a narrative plane. Same, Cid's lines in Before Crisis are then interpreted in a way so that they make sense and inform his character for the original game.

My instinct is to see how this makes sense in a "behind the scenes" narrative. I want to deduce what the developers were thinking and what might have led them to certain decision and errors. Only rarely do I try to explain away something by doing personality analyses of the characters.

In the case of Cid contradicting the timeline, I was searching for some confirmation that the timeline used to be different. Reading the Early Material File I could not confirm this notion though.


What I did find:
Although the official, current timeline places the failed rocket launch at 4 1/2 years before the original game begins, in the Early Material it happened 10 years before.

It is very possible that when FFVII was released, the failed rocket launch took place 10 years before the game starts. We are not told when this event took place and I don't know of any supplementary material that informs us of a date before the timeline that was presented to us in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. I do not know what the Ultimania Omega (published in 2005) says about this matter.

So it is very possible that the new date for the rocket launch ([ ν ] – εуλ 0003, April 12th) was decided in the context when Before Crisis was being made.


Like I meant to say, not even the scenario where the launch takes place 10 years before OG does Cid's line work. This part of the Early Material File states that the Nibelheim reactor was built 25 years earlier.


So my conclusion is that Cid's statement (about mako being the culprit behind the space program's cancellation) is a mistake by the writers. The event planner, or whoever was responsible for this part of the script, believed that Cid's line would work within the timeline. He was wrong.

While I could try and argue the same point about Cid being "uncouth", I'm much more eager to say that this part of the script demands a rewrite in future releases of the original FFVII. If the point is for Cid to be ignorant of corporate decisions, then the script should make a better point of it. The explanation in Before Crisis seems to be that the program was deemed "non-profitable", but I don't see any clear logic presented for this upon rewatching the relevant segments of BC Chapter 15. =/
 
That's very interesting, Shadey, and you're probably right. TBH I get the impression that the Japanese just don't care as much about continuity and coordiated timelines as we westerners do. It's not a big deal for them.
 

Kermitu Kleric Katie

KULT OF KERMITU
Westerners don't seem to care about continuity either. Seriously, just look at Star Wars. Or go watch Family Guy. Or read DC and/or Marvel comics. All of those are far worse than the compilation when it comes to retcons, plot holes, and continuity errors.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Westerners don't seem to care about continuity either. Seriously, just look at Star Wars. Or go watch Family Guy. Or read DC and/or Marvel comics. All of those are far worse than the compilation when it comes to retcons, plot holes, and continuity errors.
I think it more has to do with how many people are working on the story/content then culture. Stuff like Star Wars, DC universe, and FFVII have large amounts of people working on the story and therefore more chances for the writers to not know what other writers were planning.

In contrast, stuff like LOTR or Naruto had only one writer and they have hardly any continuity errors.
 

Jiro

Average Jiro
That's not nearly as bad as him being freakin born in Rocket Town.

Given the fact that Rocket Town was a field (or was it a forest?) before the rocket was there, Cid being born in Rocket Town effectively makes him a wilderness baby. Which might explain his manners, I guess. This is one of those things that seems impossible to fuck up.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Westerners don't seem to care about continuity either. Seriously, just look at Star Wars. Or go watch Family Guy. Or read DC and/or Marvel comics. All of those are far worse than the compilation when it comes to retcons, plot holes, and continuity errors.

Oh, I think I have to disagree. The fact that the "Star Wars" franchise required a really complicated system with a tiered hierarchy of canon suggests to me that Westerners take it very seriously.

I mean, the question of canon pops up a lot on forums for any franchise of significant size. Is this comment in an interview by the author canon? Is that comment from this actor canon? What if the director disagrees? Does the screenwriter's opinion matter most? Ths producer's?

Does it matter more that Grant Morrison said Xorn was always really Magneto since it was his story? Do the authors and editors who changed it later matter most? What about with the Beyonder being the embodiment of a sentient universe versus being an Inhuman? Is it really even worth questioning these things since the changes are done and nothing a fan says is going to change it back?

Oh, and fans of Marvel and DC comics care a whole lot about this sort of thing. Check out the forums at Newsarama and the Comic Book Resource in any given month for endless bitching from people who complain month after month, yet never stop buying a book whose direction they disagree with because "I don't want to break my complete run."
 
That's not nearly as bad as him being freakin born in Rocket Town.

Though the subject is not entirely on-topic, I will now explore this statement of Cid being born in Rocket Town.

The notion that Cid can't be born in Rocket Town is based on the (natural) assumption that the town's name comes from the tilting rocket, Shinra No. 26. Which only seems natural because the FMV appears to tell us that the village is no older than the tilting Rocket.

x9DB5qe.png
->
El0L2S7.png


But then again we have these pre-release image of a bigger Rocket Town, not seen in the final game.

wind3.jpg


wind4.jpg


Could it be that these unseen, outer skirts of Rocket Town existed during the failed rocket launch, but that the town was then expanded to include the houses right next to the rocket?

I can't be sure of that either. In the "change disc" image with Cid on the Tiny Bronco, we get a wide look of the landscape as it was before the rocket tilted. No settlements, meaning that the suggestion of Rocket Town existing "outside of view" becomes harder to justify.
cQ5MYbh.png



But for the sake of entertaining the notion that Rocket Town already existed, I posit the possibility that the town's name derives from its history with rocket engines since the time when Shinra was a Weapons Manufacturer.
Cid Highwind said:
&#8220;You know Shinra developed
a lot of technological gadgets
during the meaningless war, right?&#8221;
&#8220;Now it's a Mako company,
but in the old days it
was a weapons manufacturer.&#8221;

&#8220;Well,
they came up with a Rocket Engine.&#8221;

&#8220;There was so much excitement about
the thought of going into outer space.
Our dreams got bigger and bigger.&#8221;

&#8220;They put a major budget into it
and made prototype after prototype!
Finally, they completed Shinra No. 26.&#8221;

Could this be the case that the town's name derives from decades of rocket engineering taking place there and that it's not just a reference to THE rocket tilting there? If this is so, then Cid (who is 32 at the time of OG) culd definitely have been born in Rocket Town.

Well, does any source state that the name "Rocket Town" derives from the Shinra No. 26? I am actually not sure, not even after looking through the game script.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I found only one unused and one used line referring to this matter.


Unused line said:
Original translation:
&#8220;You don't know?&#8221;
&#8220;There was a plan to send a man
into outer space.&#8221;
&#8220;It was headed up by the leader of
the Shinra Space Program, Palmer.&#8221;
&#8220;This town is the result of the plan,
but the plan got cut&#8230;&#8221;

Japanese:
&#12300;&#21531;&#12383;&#12385;&#12289;&#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356;&#12398;&#12363;&#12356;&#65311;&#12301;
&#12300;&#31070;&#32645;&#12398;&#23431;&#23449;&#38283;&#30330;&#37096;&#38272;&#12398;&#38263;&#12391;&#12354;&#12427;&#12497;&#12523;&#12510;&#12540;&#12398;
&#12288;&#20027;&#23566;&#12391;&#12289;&#20154;&#38291;&#12434;&#23431;&#23449;&#12395;&#12362;&#12367;&#12429;&#12358;&#12392;&#12375;&#12383;
&#12288;&#35336;&#30011;&#12364;&#12354;&#12387;&#12383;&#12398;&#12373;&#12301;
&#12300;&#12391;&#12418;&#12289;&#12381;&#12398;&#35336;&#30011;&#12418;&#20013;&#26029;&#12375;&#12385;&#12419;&#12387;&#12390;&#12397;&#8230;&#8230;
&#12288;&#12371;&#12398;&#26449;&#12399;&#12289;&#12381;&#12398;&#35336;&#30011;&#12398;&#12394;&#12372;&#12426;&#12394;&#12398;&#12373;&#12301;

GlitterBerri's translation:
You don&#8217;t know?
There was once a plan to send humans
into space, under the leadership of
Palmer, head of the Shinra Space Development Program.
But the plan was suspended&#8230;
This town is what remains.

The town is directly related to the Space Program but we are not told how old the town is. I better end this paragraph here, because I could write on and on about the many interpretations of this unused line.


The old man who observes the rocket has one...odd line, to say the least.
Used line said:
Original translation:
&#8220;That rusted out rocket is
all that remains of
the Shinra's Space Program.&#8221;
&#8220;It just looms there.
That's how the town got its name&#8230;
'Shinra No. 26'.&#8221;

Japanese line:
&#12300;&#12354;&#12398;&#12469;&#12499;&#12388;&#12356;&#12383;&#12525;&#12465;&#12483;&#12488;&#12399;
&#12288;&#31070;&#32645;&#12459;&#12531;&#12497;&#12491;&#12540;&#12364;&#23431;&#23449;&#38283;&#30330;&#12395;
&#12288;&#21147;&#12434;&#20837;&#12428;&#12390;&#12356;&#12383;&#12371;&#12429;&#12398;&#12394;&#12372;&#12426;&#12373;&#12301;
&#12300;&#12354;&#12377;&#12371;&#12395;&#12381;&#12403;&#12360;&#12427;&#12364;
&#12288;&#12371;&#12398;&#26449;&#12398;&#21517;&#21069;&#12398;&#30001;&#26469;
&#12288;&#23431;&#23449;&#12525;&#12465;&#12483;&#12488;&#12302;&#31070;&#32645;&#65298;&#65302;&#21495;&#12303;&#12376;&#12419;&#12301;

Is this a huge mistranslation? The town is never called 'Shinra No. 26'. Does he in fact mean to say that it's the rocket that gave the town the name "Rocket Town"? If so, this helps settle the argument.
------------------------------------------------------------------

So we have essentially two options.

The Easy Option:
Conclude that the town was built after the failed rocket launch, that its namesake derives from the Shinra No. 26 rocket and that it is a mistake to point this out as Cid's birthplace.

The Complicated Option:
Assume that the town existed for decades, outside of view in all the material we've seen, and that it has been a centre for rocket engineering since before Cid was born, giving the town its namesake and thus justify it as Cid's birthplace.


I personally tilt towards the Easy Option, because I enjoy assuming the fallability of the official writers. They are human and probably nowhere near as super-nerdy about the franchise as we are. The Complicated Option can work, but too many assumptions are left up to the player.

Still, it would be nice to have that line by the old man retranslated...
 
Last edited:

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Which is a secret signal that summons myself and hito. :awesome:

"It just looms over there, but that's the origin of this town's name. The 'Shin-Ra No. 26' space rocket."

The "double bracket" quotation marks around the rocket's name are just something you see done with proper nouns a lot in Japanese media. Don't always take it the same as you would if it was done in English.

Anyway, yeah, he literally says that the rocket is "the origin of this town's name."

If not for this, one could maybe reason that those extra houses were behind the Tiny Bronco in that image of Cid. Which they might still be now that I think about it.

The old man only says that this is the origin of the town's name -- not that it's the origin of the town. Someone born in one of Midgar's eight original towns would still be said to have been born in Midgar, wouldn't they? Especially since no one uses or much remembers the original names.

So there could have been a town there before the failed rocket launch, but it was simply called something else before. Now, it's called Rocket Town, so that's where Cid is from.
 
Which is a secret signal that summons myself and hito. :awesome:

"It just looms over there, but that's the origin of this town's name. The 'Shin-Ra No. 26' space rocket."

Still not fond of how it is phrased though. He makes it sound like the town is called "Shin-Ra No. 26" instead of "Rocket Town".

But yes, the reasoning that there used to be a differently named town there makes sense. It's definitely the best explanation to put up there if this was written into an article about canon.
 
Briefly bumping this thread just to let people know that the Compilation FAQ now includes a section about the question "How can Cid be born in Rocket Town?" (written by me, with Tres's permission). Read it at the bottom.

The article used to be much longer also, but some error a few years back accidentally cut everything off after the first paragraph of the "Was Aerith&#8217;s death necessary to summon Holy?" answer/question. Tres now amended this by writing the full answer to the question about Holy.

Tres agrees that this article will receive more edits, both in general and due to present discussions about canon which are yet unsettled.
 
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