Cloud and swordsmanship

[The Twilight Mexican]

Anyway, Sephiroth is wanking around in a Jesus Christ pose when Cloud stabs him. Why would Cloud need materia for that?

Also just re-watched the CC version and Seph is completely focused on Jenova. Did the materia make him do that?

How else do you think Seph got the drop on Aerith?

 

[Odysseus]

Cloud does in fact have a pre-emptive materia equipped:


but to assert that THAT'S the reason Cloud got the drop on Sephiroth is ridiculous. HIS BACK WAS TURNED. Cloud caught him off guard because he never even considered Cloud a threat. Why are you so caught up on this detail anyway? What about in Crisis Core where Zack might not have that equipped?

 

[MasterMoogle]

Cloud does in fact have a pre-emptive materia equipped:
View attachment 6089

but to assert that THAT'S the reason Cloud got the drop on Sephiroth is ridiculous. HIS BACK WAS TURNED. Cloud caught him off guard because he never even considered Cloud a threat. Why are you so caught up on this detail anyway? What about in Crisis Core where Zack might not have that equipped?

Thank you for looking it up.

As to your question as to why I'm "caught up on this detail," I agree with you that it shouldn't matter, but:

From another perspective, Cloud's at the beginning of his journey and already demonstrating this level of skill... This is why he's able to beat Sephiroth when Seph drops his guard. And not just try and fail.

 

[LNK]

Wrong. Check the materia menu

You can't stop any cut scenes to check the menu. I'm confused

 

[MasterMoogle]

You can't stop any cut scenes to check the menu. I'm confused

Check Odysseus' last post. There was gameplay after the cutscene.

 

[LNK]

Check Odysseus' last post. There was gameplay after the cutscene.

I saw it after I commented.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This debate is dumb.

Carry on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You didn't understand the question. You're making the argument that the difference between them is skill and ability. I'm asking what's to stop Zack from using Ascension? It's a hypothetical question.

I'm unsure of what the point of this hypothetical is. If Zack could use Ascension then that'd make him more like Cloud, I guess?

It's not his technique. It's not his style. You made a comparison between Octoslash and Ascension and I merely pointed out Ascension is the stronger more brutal move given how it targets groups or a single target and ends not just with a downward vertical slice, but an impalement that is followed by Cloud leaping meters into the air, rending the unfortunate target in half, or at least horribly injured.

Zack's swordsmanship is never that brutal or violent, just in terms of attack type alone.

And you're ignoring the fact that Zack's special ability is to copy the abilities of others. Play Crisis Core, and you'll see Zack using Aerith's Healing Wind.

You're right, he can copy limit breaks.

And he never copied Ascension. He died so it never became his to use or demonstrate in battle to measure it's effectiveness. It's not a technique in his repertoire. If it were then it'd be worth discussing and attributing to him, but it isn't.

Anyways, your argument makes more sense as a criticism of his creativity. Not his skill.

I honestly wasn't even criticizing him. It's just a statement of the difference in their abilities and how their techniques are in and of themselves.

You created an arbitrary metric to measure limit breaks just so you could make Zack's look worse. If you're gonna use such broken logic, based purely on perceptual preference, then I could easily counter with the assertion that Barret's Catastrophe is better than Cloud's Ascension because a giant laser is more powerful than a bunch of chicken scratches from an oversized sword.

How am I trying to make Zack worst? I'm merely going by what the game shows and demonstrates here.

You can try to make that argument between the two and that's your choice, and there are maybe some differences between the two limits that would allow Catastrophe to be a better ability in certain situations. However, it would also come down to who's the stronger user in terms of their demonstrated ability and power.

Barret's is far stronger than any normal person, and could obviously handle a SOLDIER 3rd, but I still think Cloud's stronger by Barret's and everyone else's admission.

These games already use their own metric for measuring the strength of an ability. It's called DAMAGE.

That's a very inconsistent and non-scalable metric to measure strength because the damage formula for one game isn't the same for another, likewise the mechanics of stats between characters are highly variable and unique to every player based on their play style, equipment load out and various other factors. Using the game mechanic of damage is wildly inconsistent and inconsequential. The numbers don't exist within the story for one, and it's easily possible to make gimmicky equipment/materia combos that can just distort the narrative.

With the right load out and skillful player, Sephiroth can be overwhelmed and defeated by Cloud and the others under the toad status.

By your metric, that means Sephiroth is weaker than toad-ified humans.

That's obviously not even close to accurate

Zack fought Genesis multiple times, and beat him multiple times, both as a monster and as a person.

Pretty sure Zack has only fought Genesis twice.

Once in Modeoheim while he was degenerating, and then once again in the final battle in Banora.

Both of which are not normal, measurable circumstances. Again, you're looking at this as some definitive exam to measure performance, like Hojo and the Science Department testing the fitness and strength performance of Zack within the SOLDIER training room. Those fights are not conclusive equalized demonstrations of 1st class talent versus 1st class talent. Genesis being fought in Modeoheim while twisted, mutated and having his life shortened by degeneration isn't the same as Genesis being fought by Sephiroth in the training room while they were sparring.

So you one-shotted Roche? Did you beat him in ten sword swings? Did you beat him in twenty? Did you beat him without suffering any damage?

That's not the only way to demonstrate a character being in control. Look at the scenes and the actual narrative itself. Cloud is clearly shown to be the one who dominated. He's not exhausted, he's completely unphased, and Roche admits his superiority. The bike fight was completely the same. Cloud summarily beat him and disabled his motorcycle. All while protecting Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. It wasn't close, hence Roche wanting a runback.

Would Sephiroth one-shot him? Beat him without taking damage?

Is this a serious question?

Of course he would!

Without a visual representation of skill, such as a cutscene, the best metric we can use for determining skill during a boss fight is by comparing how much damage you do versus how much damage you take.

A cutscene isn't necessary at all, you literally see the aftermath of the battle in the story with Cloud completely unphased, asking if he's satisfied, with Roche having had enough and stepping away. You see Roche's abilities in battle with your own eyes. They're apparent throughout the fight. Roche's abilities consist of some super speed, materia use, and his above-average swordplay. And it's nothing even close to what Cloud can do on his own.

Again, this visual metric you're using only works in a cutscene. How much damage did you take during that fight?

It doesn't matter how much damage I took, the end result is the same, and what does a cutscene have to do with anything? You can't believe what the game's showing you in the very medium you're looking to analyze?

It's a basic rule of storytelling. And guess what, sometimes good storytelling doesn't hold your hand and tell you anything.

If it held such an important role in the storytelling and narrative why is it never subsequently utilized or referenced ever again? Why does Cloud not have it anymore? Why is Zack not even shown to use it or acknowledge it's existence in Crisis Core?

For such an important element in this story, it is conveniently ignored and never brought up again

 

[MasterMoogle]

This debate is dumb.

Carry on.

I actually agree, because my original comment was about Cloud's skills that he displayed during the final CUTSCENE, where he fought Sephiroth. Not limit breaks. Not motorbike minigames. Not gameplay. However, I decided to continue with the debate anyway because I enjoy it.

 

[Odysseus]

If I remember right, there's a moment in Before Crisis where Cloud showcases a level of inhuman strength similar to the moment in the reactor. I think we're meant to infer that Cloud was a lot stronger than he realized, but his own lack of confidence was holding him back. I don't agree with Mako that Part 1 remake Cloud was stronger than Zack, that's going too far for the fact that a guy like Roche could put up a fight, but I don't think he was so weak as to need some materia to catch Sephiroth off guard.

Had Cloud and Sephiroth fought in the reactor, Cloud would have lost. But that's not what happens, Sephiroth was distracted by his mom and Cloud stabs him in the back

Hell, in the original scene Sephiroth actually turns around right before getting hit:

So the materia didn't do its job.

Anyway, this is a pedantic detail that doesn't really matter to the point of this thread anyway, so carry on.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If I remember right, there's a moment in Before Crisis where Cloud showcases a level of inhuman strength similar to the moment in the reactor. I think we're meant to infer that Cloud was a lot stronger than he realized, but his own lack of confidence was holding him back. I don't agree with Mako that Part 1 remake Cloud was stronger than Zack, that's going too far for the fact that a guy like Roche could put up a fight, but I don't think he was so weak as to need some materia to catch Sephiroth off guard.

That's exactly what it's meant to shown. It's foreshadowing towards Cloud's subsequent hulk-out of superhuman, limit break strength. When Cloud gets beaten up, his abilities and strength skyrocket and he goes bankai tailed-beast mode super saiyan hyper mode moon princess limit break.

 

[Odysseus]

It's all build up to this one moment, really, where all of Cloud's strength is let out:

God damn that still gives me chills to watch. That's a man who knows how to use a sword!

That's why Sephiroth shits all over him at the end of part 1 in a mirror to this scene, Cloud just isn't skilled enough yet.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I'm unsure of what the point of this hypothetical is. If Zack could use Ascension then that'd make him more like Cloud, I guess?

It's not his technique. It's not his style. You made a comparison between Octoslash and Ascension and I merely pointed out Ascension is the stronger more brutal move given how it targets groups or a single target and ends not just with a downward vertical slice, but an impalement that is followed by Cloud leaping meters into the air, rending the unfortunate target in half, or at least horribly injured.

Zack's swordsmanship is never that brutal or violent, just in terms of attack type alone.

You're the one making the argument about skill. If you want to walk back your original assertion, just say so. And I already told you, this visual metric you're using during gameplay from TWO DIFFERENT GAMES is irrelevant. Skill is measured through damage done and taken during gameplay.

You're right, he can copy limit breaks.

And he never copied Ascension. He died so it never became his to use or demonstrate in battle to measure it's effectiveness. It's not a technique in his repertoire. If it were then it'd be worth discussing and attributing to him, but it isn't.

So in other words, the reason he can't use Ascension has nothing to do with his skill. Thank you.

I honestly wasn't even criticizing him. It's just a statement of the difference in their abilities and how their techniques are in and of themselves.

How am I trying to make Zack worst? I'm merely going by what the game shows and demonstrates here.

Again, if you want to walk back your assertion about the difference in skill between Cloud and Zack, just say so.

You can try to make that argument between the two and that's your choice, and there are maybe some differences between the two limits that would allow Catastrophe to be a better ability in certain situations. However, it would also come down to who's the stronger user in terms of their demonstrated ability and power.

Barret's is far stronger than any normal person, and could obviously handle a SOLDIER 3rd, but I still think Cloud's stronger by Barret's and everyone else's admission.

So you're saying that using visual preference as a metric for skill during gameplay is pointless when the game already uses its own metric called damage?

That's a very inconsistent and non-scalable metric to measure strength because the damage formula for one game isn't the same for another, likewise the mechanics of stats between characters are highly variable and unique to every player based on their play style, equipment load out and various other factors. Using the game mechanic of damage is wildly inconsistent and inconsequential. The numbers don't exist within the story for one, and it's easily possible to make gimmicky equipment/materia combos that can just distort the narrative.

So then why did you compare Cloud and Zack to begin with? Again, if you want to walk back your assertion . . . .

Pretty sure Zack has only fought Genesis twice.

Once in Modeoheim while he was degenerating, and then once again in the final battle in Banora.

Both of which are not normal, measurable circumstances. Again, you're looking at this as some definitive exam to measure performance, like Hojo and the Science Department testing the fitness and strength performance of Zack within the SOLDIER training room. Those fights are not conclusive equalized demonstrations of 1st class talent versus 1st class talent. Genesis being fought in Modeoheim while twisted, mutated and having his life shortened by degeneration isn't the same as Genesis being fought by Sephiroth in the training room while they were sparring.

How pedantic. Maybe Genesis had a headache. Maybe Genesis was being weighed down by his wing. Maybe Genesis chipped a nail.

That's not the only way to demonstrate a character being in control. Look at the scenes and the actual narrative itself. Cloud is clearly shown to be the won who dominated. He's not exhausted, he's completely unphaszed, and Roche admits his superiority. The bike fight was completely the same. Cloud summarily beat him and disabled his motorcycle. All while protecting Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. It wasn't close, hence Roche wanting a runback.

It doesn't matter how much damage I took, the end result is the same, and what does a cutscene with anything? You can't believe what the game's showing you in the very medium you're looking to analyze?

Then Cloud would have one-shotted Roche, or at least beat him far quicker than is possible without taking damage. Damage is the prime metric used to determine difficulty and skill. Not cutscenes.

Is this a serious question?

Of course he would!

It was a rhetorical question. My point was the reason he could easily one-shot Roche without taking any damage is because he is objectively better than Roche by lightyears. The reason Cloud can't is because he ISN'T better than Roche by lightyears. He's only moderately better than Roche.

Again, damage is the prime metric used to determine difficulty and skill.

If it held such an important role in the storytelling and narrative why is it never subsequently utilized or referenced ever again? Why does Cloud not have it anymore? Why is Zack not even shown to use it or acknowledge it's existence in Crisis Core?
For such an important element in this story, it is conveniently ignored and never brought up again

Because good storytelling doesn't always hold your hand? You're not gonna be told everything. Often times writers like it when their audience discovers something new on a future playthrough.

Dude, do you have anything new to say? Because this is exhausting. I'm sure you would agree. If you have nothing new to say, I think it's better if we agree to disagree.

 

[Odysseus]

Then Cloud would have one-shotted Roche, or at least beat him far quicker than is possible without taking damage. Damage is the prime metric used to determine difficulty and skill. Not cutscenes.

Even damage is a pretty questionable metric because it has way more to do with player skill than the ability of Cloud himself, I mean some of us suck at the game, and some of us are this guy:

 

[MasterMoogle]

It's all build up to this one moment, really, where all of Cloud's strength is let out:

God damn that still gives me chills to watch. That's a man who knows how to use a sword!

That's why Sephiroth shits all over him at the end of part 1 in a mirror to this scene, Cloud just isn't skilled enough yet.

This is irrelevant. I was talking about Cloud's technical skill with a sword. My debate with Makoeyes987 was a tangent.

I was talking about Cloud's ability to parry, block, and get behind his opponent's defense to score a precise strike. Compared to Sephiroth, Cloud's ability to wield a sword is garbage. He jumps around, wastes energy, never gets past Seph's defense. He wields a sword like someone who's never been trained to wield one.

 

[Odysseus]

In that final scene of the remake, sure, but by the end of the original game in the scene that this:

is clearly referencing, Cloud is able to get past Sephiroth's defenses. Sure, it's through the abstraction of turn-based combat, but the point is that Cloud has surpassed Sephiroth and can utterly dominate him by the end. If you just mean in remake part 1, then yeah he's lacking skills, he's never actually used a sword like that before. The "jumping around" can be written off a little bit as anime nonsense though, we aren't exactly aiming for 100% realism here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Compared to Sephiroth...

And there's your answer

This is Cloud, at the beginning, trying to cross blades with the strongest monster in the series.

Cloud's not even close to the level he has to be to end Sephiroth's life, let alone give Sephiroth an amusing drawn out match that forces him to do more than simply style on him.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Damage is also a shit metric since the amount of damage an enemy can do will change depending on what difficulty you play on. You're own damage and hit point pool can vary wildly depending on how much you grind. One player might grind a bunch and subsequently shit all over a boss fight. Another player might grind less and thus have a hard time.

Gameplay and story segregation is a concept for a reason. The best way to gauge characters abilities is looking at the cues from the story, which means cutscenes most of the time, and dialogue the rest (for example, Cloud's lines "Sephiroth's strength is far greater in reality than in any story you might have heard," and "In terms of skill, there's no way I could have beaten him,)

For example, in CC it is very likely that the play can match or exceed Sephiroth in terms of damage output gameplay wise, especially if they've spent much time on the side missions, by the time they fight in Nibelheim. Yet, the cutscenes tell a different story, with Zack being consistently on the backfoot untill he gets overpowered outright.

 

[MasterMoogle]

And there's your answer

This is Cloud, at the beginning, trying to cross blades with the strongest monster in the series.

Cloud's not even close to the level he has to be to end Sephiroth's life, let alone give Sephiroth an amusing drawn out match that forces him to do more than simply style on him.

Doesn't matter. Sephiroth wields a sword like an expert, while Cloud doesn't and that's what the cutscene shows. It doesn't matter who Cloud's opponent is. I simply compare him to Sephiroth because he's considered the apex of sword skill. I'm using Seph as an example.

Damage is also a shit metric since the amount of damage an enemy can do will change depending on what difficulty you play on. You're own damage and hit point pool can vary wildly depending on how much you grind. One player might grind a bunch and subsequently shit all over a boss fight. Another player might grind less and thus have a hard time.

Gameplay and story segregation is a concept for a reason. The best way to gauge characters abilities is looking at the cues from the story, which means cutscenes most of the time, and dialogue the rest (for example, Cloud's lines "Sephiroth's strength is far greater in reality than in any story you might have heard," and "In terms of skill, there's no way I could have beaten him,)

For example, in CC it is very likely that the play can match or exceed Sephiroth in terms of damage output gameplay wise, especially if they've spent much time on the side missions, by the time they fight in Nibelheim. Yet, the cutscenes tell a different story, with Zack being consistently on the backfoot untill he gets overpowered outright.

A good point, but I don't think the story meant for Cloud to one-shot Roche.

In that final scene of the remake, sure, but by the end of the original game in the scene that this:

is clearly referencing, Cloud is able to get past Sephiroth's defenses. Sure, it's through the abstraction of turn-based combat, but the point is that Cloud has surpassed Sephiroth and can utterly dominate him by the end. If you just mean in remake part 1, then yeah he's lacking skills, he's never actually used a sword like that before. The "jumping around" can be written off a little bit as anime nonsense though, we aren't exactly aiming for 100% realism here.

You don't see Sephiroth jumping around(he did have one or two spin attacks). If Sephiroth is the apex of sword skill, then Cloud needs to stop that nonsense and fight more like Seph.

I guess my issue is with HOW the devs depicted Cloud's sword skills. It's so embarrassing how Cloud looks fighting Sephiroth.

 

[Lord Noctis]

It's not about skill per se. The reason Sephiroth isn't moving around and jumping and spinning, is because he just does not need to. It's not just skill, he's also much faster and stronger than Cloud. Even if Cloud matched Sephiroth's skill, he would still get his ass kicked for the simple reason that he does not have the strength or reflexes to contend with Sephiroth. Notably, when Cloud and Sephiroth fight in ACC, Sephiroth moves a lot more. Spinning, jumping, flying around. That's because AC Cloud is much closer to Sephiroth's level, and thus requires much more effort since Sephiroth can't rely on sheer speed and strength alone anymore.

But, I disagree with the notion that remake Cloud is as good as Zack. Going by cutscenes, Zack can preform better against Sephiroth. As soon as Sephiroth charged Cloud seriously on the remake, he disarmed him in a single move.

When he charged Zack seriously in Nibelheim, Zack ducked his strike, and leapt over the follow up. You can even see the surprise, and then anger on Sephiroth's face as he comes after Zack and finally managed to overpower him. Though even then Zack manages to hold his blade back for a moment or two despite Sephiroth's clear anger

 

[Wol]

How can you say that? Cloud's dancing made him even better in battle.

 

[oty]

What I don't get is this idea that "Seph humiliated Cloud, so Cloud sucks". First, "embarassing" it's subjective. To me, it's his own fight style that, mind you, took down plenty of bad guys all throughout the game. It's kinda neat actually, that he goes for these clear strikes and jumping around. That's the clear image of super badass SOLDIER that Cloud wanted to be. But then he fights against a literal god of swordmanship that is Sephiroth, and he truly sees the contrast.

But that doesnt suck for Cloud, it only shows how good Sephiroth is. That's like me going in a chess match against Magnus Carlsen, and getting my ass handed. Congrats, it doesnt mean shit. That would be the worst metric to decide whether I was good or bad at chess.

 

[DutchDread]

I think Zack is clearly superior to Cloud in Remake, and honestly, to Cloud by the end of the OG as well when Cloud is fighting alone instead of fighting together with, and more importantly FOR, his friends. They're what allow him to get the job done, since he's not Zack, he's not the stoic one man army hero. He needs to accept that, and instead of being a loner, find his strength through his loved ones. Which is exactly what he does at the end of FFVII.

Comparing Cloud to Sephiroth in the remake is patently absurd, no one compares, so the data is useless. Both Zack and Cloud would get their asses kicked.


Assuming damage numbers are in some way indicative is also absurd, that's just not how game design works. Otherwise all enemies would be monstrous hp houses that could only tickle each other while we are glass cannons that literally only survive because of healing materia. If mechanics mattered, then Sephiroth sucks because despite what the cutscenes show, he's a complete pushover when it comes to mechanics.

But game mechanics don't matter, cutscenes and plot matter.


And in cutscenes, Cloud is generally shown to suck. He clumsily wields his sword, is easily thrown off balance, has people land on or duck under his swings and is never shown to have a decisive victory over anyone aside from low level grunts. He wins yeah, but he doesn't dominate, and usually needs help. Throughout the game, I got the sense that Cloud was clearly not at strong as you'd expect from a soldier first class.

Him cutting through buildings near the end is impressive sure, but Tifa, a regular human being does the same with her feet.

Also, just swinging your sword around chaotically doesn't require skill, hell, it's almost the opposite. Skill is what Sephiroth shows, no wasted movement, targeted strikes, etc. Anyone can simply wave a sword around, so saying that since omni-slash or ascension has more swings, that that makes Cloud better is just....what?

In CC core, Zack beats everyone except Sephiroth straight up one on one, seemingly without much effort, simply because he's better, whether you accept optional bosses or not, or whether you think Genesis's final form is weaker than regular genesis or not, it's still a much more impressive feat than anything Cloud has managed to do alone in FFVII: remake.

Let's not forget that Zack slices through the vault door in Nibleheim like it's nothing, while Cloud is trying to slice through a vault door in shinra HQ looking like a dumbass XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

The man who got folded by Sephiroth is superior all the way to the end of FFVII's story, to the dude who chops through skyscrapers and trains and subsequently folds the dude that folded him? Okay.

I'm not sure what cutscenes you're talking about where Cloud's shown to clumsily wield his sword, aside from Cloud's face off with Sephiroth. You're saying he's never shown to have a decisive victory? So.. Roche didn't happen twice, on the ground and while motorcycling? Reno didn't happen either? Reno of the Turks being able to dodge his blade swings doesn't change the fact Cloud inevitably struck him to the point fate had to literally intervene to prevent Reno from being executed. Cloud's shown to be able to parry and counter the hits Reno throws at him from his weapon, making his speed irrelevant. Hence the fact their one-on-one fight leads to Reno holding a massive grudge and calling it "beginner's luck" as he limps away. There's no one who stands up to Cloud that gives him grief except the main bad guy of the series here.

And where did Tifa kick through a building? She may interrupt and break a rock Sephiroth tries to crush Cloud with during his battle against him, but that's not a building.

And again, comparing Zack's fights against Angeal and Genesis which were circumstances where they had completely degenerated either into monsters or something far worst, to the combat prowess and techniques of their previous forms as SOLDIERs, is completely irrelevant and missing the point of the story. They weren't fighting as SOLDIERs, they were completely removed from their abilities as SOLDIERs. Genesis only fought Zack as a SOLDIER the final time his degradation was cured and he was already worn out due to the punishment he took as Genesis Avatar. That's the closest to a one-on-one SOLDIER fight he ever had with Zack.

And if you're going to try to equivocate a vault door as somehow just as impressive to what's shown in the Remake, I don't know what to tell you. That's just silly. And by your wasted movement logic, Zack has no technique either given the fact most of his sword attacks are consecutive slashes like Octoslash and Chain-Slash. Clearly he's wasting movement since he's not ending fights in one slash. That's silly too.

 

[DutchDread]

I am talking about each cutscene, from the way Cloud barely manages to deflect a blow from Roche to the way Rene effortlessly dodges and evades him on the pillar before no-selling his attacks by deflecting his buster sword away one handed.
Not exactly the kind of response you'd expect from someone who got his ass handed to him. The game constantly shows Cloud struggling and barely managing, that is a GOOD thing.

It was a piece of a building, which yes, is as impressive as anything I remember seeing Cloud do in the remake.

Angeal and Genesis being monsters doesn't diminish the impressiveness of the feat, only enhances it.

I never said anything about Zacks strikes so why did you bring it up? That's YOUR argument, not mine, I am only mentioning feats and storytelling implications.

No, I am saying the vault door is MORE impressive than anything seen in the remake, and that Cloud specifically tries to MIMIC in the remake and that he fails hilariously while doing it.

The same feat, two characters, one does it nonchalantly, the other can't make a scratch.