Cloud Never Cared About the Planet and Never Will

[Ite]

I'm noticing (in my most recent scrutinous look at the plot) that there's something missing from Cloud's character arc.

I can't believe I played the game over 40 times and I am only realizing it now. I think it's because, as a role-playing gamer, I am used to putting my opinions on the plot into my character's head. I assume that the revelations I have as a player are the ones Cloud has. When I went to Cosmo Canyon and learned about the metaphysics of the world, for instance, and when Cid made that speech about the Planet being like a little kid, I was very moved. And so I assumed that Cloud had as much vested interest in protecting the Planet as I did.

But he never actually rescinds his original position on the welfare of the Planet. (his original position being somewhere between a wet fart and a shrug). Cloud never actually does anything for only the Planet. His main motivations throughout the entire game are as follows: Money. Save Aeris from Shinra HQ. Kill Sephiroth. Get him and his friends out of the Crater safely. His whole reason for going into the Crater was to settle his score with Sephiroth, he says so himself. I thought that speech he made at the end of Disc 2 was very moving until I realized that. He isn't trying to save the Planet by making himself and his friends find a personal reason to fight. He's trying to use these hippies to kill his old boss! It could honestly go either way, there is plenty of evidence for both. I just had never considered it before. Huh.

I think Cloud's opinion on the matter is left intentionally ambiguous, so that the player can make up his/her own mind and insert it via auto-pilot into their image of the character. Depending on who is interpreting the story, Cloud could actually be pro mako. It's only ever the other characters in the party that seem to get more zealous about saving the Planet. But for all I know, their tree-hugging attitude might be the only trait of his friends that he can't stand. It's up to the player's interpretation. That's actually a brilliant move, Square.

Discuss.

 

[Ghost X]

I never got that impression, except at the start. I'd have to play through again, but just looking at the ending FMV, Cloud seems pretty sympathetic toward the Planet. Of course he had his personal vendetta with Sephiroth, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about the planet at the same time.

 

[Kai Schulen]

To be fair, technically Tifa and Barret didn't care about the Planet either. It was a cover excuse for revenge against ShinRa, wasn't it?

 

[Shademp]

There is but one matter where Cloud might somewhat care for the Planet, but only post-OG. Namely, Materia and how its usage drains the life force of the Planet.

If not for page 86 of the Reunion Files, we would not know this.

What do they use for fuel in this time period?

"Cloud and the gang certainly aren't using mako anymore, because it drains the life of the planet. That means they don't use Materia, either. Yuffie collects them, but that's just because she lives to collect things (laughs). I guess the airship must be running on some mysterious ancient power source." (Nomura)

It is a pity though that we do not have an actual written scene where the team agrees on stopping to use Materia, after using it (possibly very diligently) in the adventures of the original game. Doesn't help matters either that On the Way to a Smile has Yuffie use restorative Materia, while also going on a hunt (together with Nanaki) for Materia that might cure Geostigma. It makes sense that the team would not refrain from using curative Materia, but yet again it is a pity that we don't have in-game commentary on what the team's attitude is about Materia.

Spoiler

Vincent using Fire, Ice and Lightning Materia in Dirge of Cerberus could be explained away as a game mechanic which exists outside the narrative.

If Materia is so bad, then why does Cosmo Canyon sell it? Why aren't the Huge Materia returned to the Planet? Why does Cloud carry around the huge box of destructive Materia? I am probably diverting the topic of the thread here, but I just had to comment the "vagueness" of Cloud's apparent choice not to use Materia in Advent Children.



If you go to the tutorial room in Junon in the original game, Cloud has the following to say when explaining "Numbers of Matera that you may carry":

“Once Materia starts dividing,
you must be careful.”
“There's a limit to how much Materia
you can have.”
“Since we're fighting
for the life of the Planet,
it goes against my beliefs
to carry too much Materia.”
“Either way, I don't really care
but, I'll leave it up to you.”
“That's why, the amount of Materia that
we can have is limited to 200…
only what we can equip.”
“When you have too much Materia,
you need to dispose of some.
If you don't, you can't take on
any more.”
“So, ditch some Materia before that happens…
Ahem…I mean,
give them back to the Planet.”

This Tutorial version of Cloud can be dismissed as a comedic, non-canonical version of his personality due to tutorial rooms being a common place for developers to joke around and take liberties. But it's an interesting note nonetheless, in the context of Materia usage.

Spoiler: Slight digression

When explaining Materia division, Cloud says this:

“Division…
I'm pretty good at this.”
“People tell me that my personality is divided.
But I don't think so,
but maybe it is?”
“Anyhow…”
“Once your Materia reaches
the maximum level, it will divide.”
“The original Materia will no longer grow.
Once that happens,
all you can do is use it as it is.”
“New Materia always starts out with zero AP,
so you need to raise its levels!”
“Of course, once the new Materia
reaches its max, it'll divide.
That's how you increase
your Materia collection.”
“Ha, ha…
Right now I feel like
I'm dividing myself.”

Again, a generally not-too-serious atmosphere in this room.

At first I seemed to recall that Cloud's script in the space rocket points towards Cloud caring about the preservation of Materia, but he does, indeed, only mention it in the context of defeating Sephiroth.

Cloud:
“Hey, Cid!
What're you doing!?”

Cloud:
“There are generations of knowledge
and wisdom inside the Materia.”
“We're gonna borrow their powers and
save the Planet from Sephiroth.”
“There's no way that
we can lose the Huge Materia.
You understand that, right?”

All in all, Cloud *might* care about the Planet's overall supply of life force but the narrative doesn't explicitly tell us.


Edit: I do believe that he never would go out of his way to use Mako post-OG though. Even if only because it would make him look like Shinra. Remember his reaction to Reno saying that together they could rebuild Shinra.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I've always taken the, "Cloud and Co. aren't using materia anymore" reasoning as an excuse not to have them using materia in ACC. I mean, in FFVII, using materia uses up your own MP reserves, not something else's. And common materia are sold everywhere. Actually, having materia spawn more materia when mastered seems to indicate that the person using the materia somehow is adding energy to the materia to the point the materia has enough extra energy to make more of itself. Also, if materia is crystallized mako, which in the OG seems to be a naturally occurring proccess in most cases, then it's not like you're destroying mako by using it the way mako reactors were destroying it, if anything, you're making more of it. In my headcannon, Cloud and Co. use materia the same as before, only since they aren't fighting uber-powerful monsters that much anymore, it's a waste of MP. And they're powerful enough that their physical attacks work nine times out of ten.

To be honest, I'd be more concerned with where all the items Cloud and Co. use come from, given that I stole most of mine off of monsters... which return to the Lifestream when they die. Of course, the energy used by restorative items is transferred to the user, so that probably gets returned to the Lifestream anyway. And all the other items are mostly use to kill monsters so the same probably does for them as well.

On topic: On the one hand, caring about the Planet is presented as making sure Holy works which might decide humans aren't worth keeping around. As Cloud wants that to happen no matter what, I'd say he does care about the Planet. On the other hand, caring about the Planet is an abstract concept. And Cloud doesn't really care about abstract concepts, he cares about people: Tifa, Aerith, Barret, etc. He even points out that the reason why everyone is there to stop Sephiroth is for their own personal reasons, not for some abstract "cause". I think that while Cloud does want the Planet to survive, that's not his main reason for what he does, which makes him out to be one of the less noble FF leads.

Incidentally, in CC, Zack, Angeal, and Genesis are driven by abstract "causes" as opposed to being driven by people. Genesis wants to find the Goddess and the last act of Loveless, Angeal wants to follow his ideals of pride and honor as does Zack. And they all ended up doing things they regretted. Only Zack's reason for doing things switches from a "cause" to other people, specifically Sephiroth, Aerith and Cloud. And he's arguably a better person after he changes.

The difference between fighting for a cause and fighting for people is also a major difference between the old AVALANCHE and the current AVALANCHE and it's what sets the Turks apart from the other organizations in Shin-Ra.

 

[Abortedj]

Were we ever meant to think Cloud did care about the cause? He make several comments that he is only in it for the money, to the point Barrett is piss about what he is paying Cloud. Aside from money, Cloud is there to try and get his hands on Tifa's huge (and I'm betting fake) tits. We see Cloud had a more than somewhat creepy obsession with her as a kid, and he is just going in for another round of that as an adult.

Plus faking an interest in some bullshit cause is a great way to get pussy in the first place. Go to a protest rally for some bullshit cause, and you will get laid. Or fake being vegan around a hippie girl, and watch how fast she will be eating your meat. Cloud doesn't care about the planet, or mako, he cares about cumming.

Also Barrett and crew don't really care about the planet either. They are just like the environmentalists in the real world, they want a clean place to live. What is happening in FF7 will one day (long and far off) kill all the people, the world they are on however will keep on spinning. More over, after all the people are dead, given enough time, the world will grow new life to take the place of all that has died. In the end the world is fine, it is only the people that are fucked.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The argument for Materia is kinda dumb. Any drain on the planet (probably minimal) is more than traded off for the exponential increase in abilities needed to defeat Sephiroth and fight Shinra on their journey. That, and it surely was just a reasoning used for them not using spells in AC(C). Any hypothetical game set after that time period (or hell, Dirge) will have the protagonists using Materia.

I'll post on the main point a bit later.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that Cloud doesn't care about the planet. He cares about people who need the planet to live, after all. He's just indifferent to saving the planet for its own sake.

Like Obsidian said, he fought for the sake of people rather than a cause. He's like Kamui in "X" in that respect. Kamui didn't choose to become a Dragon of Heaven (i.e. choose to protect the Earth) so much as he expressed the desire to protect a place where Fuma and Kotori could live -- and this wish automatically made him a Dragon of Heaven.

What is happening in FF7 will one day (long and far off) kill all the people, the world they are on however will keep on spinning. More over, after all the people are dead, given enough time, the world will grow new life to take the place of all that has died. In the end the world is fine, it is only the people that are fucked.

It's made clear in the game that the planet itself would actually die with the way things were going.

If new life energy wasn't being produced faster than it was being used up, that's the inevitable outcome.

 

[ForceStealer]

I think Cloud is just being practical in that speech. Yes, people think the Planet shouldn't be exploited and that it should be defended. But the fact remained that people aren't going to fight for something so abstract. If he and these people with him are going to risk a horrible death, there must be personal reasons that they're fighting.

He wants revenge, as does Tifa, Barret doesn't care what happens to him, but he wants Marlene to have a good life, Vincent wants to redeem himself, Red wants to protect Cosmo Canyon as is his inherited duty, etc. etc.

It's true that Cloud isn't an environmentalist, but I think his speech at the end served more to establish that he had become a truly effective leader that understands his teams' needs and motivations, rather than him discounting the environmental importance of their mission.

 

[Abortedj]

It's made clear in the game that the planet itself would actually die with the way things were going.
If new life energy wasn't being produced faster than it was being used up, that's the inevitable outcome.

It would be in a state unstuitable for the current life on the planet. This doesn't mean for all possible forms of life, necessarily. To quote a movie that hasn't aged well "Life, ahh ahh, finds a way".

 

[jazzflower92]

It would be in a state unstuitable for the current life on the planet. This doesn't mean for all possible forms of life, necessarily. To quote a movie that hasn't aged well "Life, ahh ahh, finds a way".

And to quote from the same movie "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should".In this case it would describe how Shinra still experimented with Jenova even when it was found out that she wasn't an Ancient at all.

 

[Abortedj]

And to quote from the same movie "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should".In this case it would describe how Shinra still experimented with Jenova even when it was found out that she wasn't an Ancient at all.

Well that is true. I must admit, I am not sure of when Shinra learned that. When in the timeline was that? (This is not to argue, I am honestly curious.)

 

[Shademp]

It would be in a state unstuitable for the current life on the planet. This doesn't mean for all possible forms of life, necessarily. To quote a movie that hasn't aged well "Life, ahh ahh, finds a way".

In the world of FFVII, this is not the case though. If all spirit energy leaves a planetary body, the rock will crumble. It can't even be kept together by the force of gravity once the spiritual matter is gone.

We see this both in one of the observatory FMVs in the original game and at the end of this sequence from Dirge of Cerberus.

Unfortunately, the mythos doesn't answer whether ALL bodies require spiritual energy to stay intact. That aside, you get the idea why life in FFVII would not "find a way".

 

[Ite]

a movie that hasn't aged well

You shut your filthy mouth. That movie has somehow gotten better with age.

 

[Abortedj]

I all honest I thought when you see the planet "dieing" in FF7 that was just religious/hippie bullshit. Didn't take it seriously. And I never played DoC, but I would if I found a cheap copy.

However, if mako is really going to kill the planet, does anyone that is fighting against it actually have an alternative in mind? I don't remember anyone offering up any. Does oil, or nuclear materials, even exist in the universe of FF7? For that matter is mako energy being used in place of electrical power, or is it being use to actually generate electrical power in some way? It is a rather important distinction.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Obsidian Fire and Shademp, I just wanted to thank you for your posts. They were erudite and well-argued. They gave me food for thought.

 

[Octo]

I all honest I thought when you see the planet "dieing" in FF7 that was just religious/hippie bullshit. Didn't take it seriously. And I never played DoC, but I would if I found a cheap copy.

However, if mako is really going to kill the planet, does anyone that is fighting against it actually have an alternative in mind? I don't remember anyone offering up any. Does oil, or nuclear materials, even exist in the universe of FF7? For that matter is mako energy being used in place of electrical power, or is it being use to actually generate electrical power in some way? It is a rather important distinction.

IIRC oil isn't mentioned in the OG, but coal is - as that is what Corel was a mine for.

The Mako reactors generate electricity, Shinra is known as the Shinra Electric Power Company.

I was under the impression that the planet has a finite amount of 'lifestream' that gets constantly recycled, but that the use of mako power interferes and prevents that cycle continuing, and that eventually the planet would collapse when the lifestream was depleted. That is why the ground is so barren around Midgar.


I could be wrong though, its a while since I played

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I all honest I thought when you see the planet "dieing" in FF7 that was just religious/hippie bullshit. Didn't take it seriously. And I never played DoC, but I would if I found a cheap copy.

However, if mako is really going to kill the planet, does anyone that is fighting against it actually have an alternative in mind? I don't remember anyone offering up any. Does oil, or nuclear materials, even exist in the universe of FF7? For that matter is mako energy being used in place of electrical power, or is it being use to actually generate electrical power in some way? It is a rather important distinction.

Before the use of Mako, coal was used. The advent of Shinra eventually edged alternate power sources out in favor of the more efficient Mako energy. After the fall of Mako, the Compilation states that they'll use oil again (hopefully as a temporary measure to you know, prevent society from collapsing until a cleaner source can be found).

And from a narrative point of view, why would they introduce the concept of the planet depending on Spirit energy if it was a bullshit concept? The Compilation aside, even the original game shows the direct implications of the planet being threatened by the lack of Spirit energy, from the wastelands around Midgar to the Weapons. The fact that the planet is directly affected by the circulation of Mako is a very real, observable thing in the FF7 universe.

 

[Poe-Lantern]

I haven’t played in ages so I am probably wrong and feel free to correct me on anything.

I think, like its already been said, in-game Cloud caring about the planet would fall under the player’s choice. From what I can remember, in-game there were things you could to do outside the story line, like the people helping Fort Condor. Even then, it was for the people, not the planet.
Could you really say that any of them really did it just for the planet? Except maybe Aeris/th and Nanaki.

It is odd that I have never really thought about it.

About the Mako replacement:

I was surprised with Barret’s phone call in AC about finding an oil field, I’m assuming it is an oil field as in a natural oil like petroleum based rather than grown like rapeseed oil. I would have assumed they would go down the renewable resources route. I mean there was evidence in-game, like the wind turbines in Cosmo Canyon, that renewable sources were being used. They managed to build a whole city in two years, I’d imagine it would not be that difficult to erect a few wind turbines everywhere. I can’t imagine people would go ‘we can’t have wind turbines, they are too ugly, etc.’

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^There's a big difference economically between clean energy and cheap energy as well as fueling a city the size of Edge with clean energy. (Go look up how many wind turbines you'd need to match the average coal plant...) With the collapse of mako energy, the standard of living would fall to whatever it was before coal. At this point, everybody's concern is just to get energy so they can keep the standard of living up/keep people from dying, etc. As long as mako energy isn't being used, the type of energy doesn't really matter. The FFVII world has to stabilize itself socially and economically first. It can't afford to be picky where that energy comes from (yet).

 

[ForceStealer]

The issue with Mako was a lot more serious than the pollution. Coal and oil may not be great for the environment, but you're not eating the Planet's soul.

Besides, most of the population did not give up Mako for environmental concerns, but because the Lifestream scared them shitless and they don't want to piss the Planet off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

IIRC oil isn't mentioned in the OG, but coal is - as that is what Corel was a mine for.

The Mako reactors generate electricity, Shinra is known as the Shinra Electric Power Company.

Correct on all counts, though the presence of coal certainly made the possibility of oil seem definite as well. I'm surprised by how often folks assumed that there was no oil, just Lifestream.

I was under the impression that the planet has a finite amount of 'lifestream' that gets constantly recycled, but that the use of mako power interferes and prevents that cycle continuing, and that eventually the planet would collapse when the lifestream was depleted. That is why the ground is so barren around Midgar.

The amount of Lifestream isn't finite, no; it grows over time, so long as it doesn't lose more than it accumulates.

 

[Abortedj]

The amount of Lifestream isn't finite, no; it grows over time, so long as it doesn't lose more than it accumulates.

So isn't the real problem just efficiency? Couldn't the technology based on mako be refined to the point that more mako was being made by the planet than was being used to power the homes and businesses of the world? Also, since mako energy increase over time, couldn't there we ways to stimulate the planet to generate more? Seems with all the industry build around mako, it would be easier to found it to find solutions than to convince the world to stop altogether.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I assume that mako has a consistent energy-to-work output, and was already being used as efficiently as it could be from Shin-Ra's point of view. After all, it was the foundation of their empire.

As far as inciting the planet to produce more spirit energy goes, I don't know that there is any way to artificially speed that process up. The energy is derived from the memories lifeforms accumulate as they experience life. The only way to make more of it is for more things to live, make memories and die. Increasing the overall population of the planet would be the only way to do it -- but that would also lead to requiring the use of more mako energy to support the additional population.

 

[Blade]

If everything Bugenhagen said about the Planet is true...I'd be more worried about what would happen to life on the planet once the planet's about to die and Omega IS needed (and not in any false sense like what Deep Ground tried to trigger).

Thing is...if you're part of a dying ecosystem, how the heck are you gonna separate yourself from that system in order to survive?