Cloud VS Zack in a fight.

[AerithLives]

I have been having a debate with a friend and we cannot agree on who would win in a fight between Cloud and Zack. I am aware that Cloud was never stronger than Zack while he was alive but did he ever surpass Zack in terms of skill and strength?

Thanks

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Oh Cloud most definitely surpassed Zack. Zack lost to Seph one on one at the reactor, but Cloud beat his ass one on one in ACC. At their peaks, Cloud>Zack.

 

[AerithLives]

But wasnt Zack fighting the original Sephiroth? Cloud has fought Jenova/Sephiroth clone and Sephiroth Kadaj/Jenova. Arent they different?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I was just replaying the reactor scene in Crisis Core, and I don't know how Sephiroth managed to beat me Zack: every one of my hits did more damage to him than the whole of Octoslash did to me Zack. He also has this attack where he left me Zack with 1 HP, the better to toy with me and torment me Zack, I suppose.

Of course, Zack never went toe to toe with Sephiroth after his four years in a mako tank. I believe (I might be wrong) that those four years are canonically the reason why Cloud is so strong, plus, of course, the S-cells he now has in his body. He came out of Hojo's tank a different calibre of fighter to the one who went in. Whether Zack would also be stronger, I don't know. If you want to take game mechanics as canon, my Zack more than doubled in HP, MP, attack power etc... between escaping from Nibelheim and finally dying outside Midgar. Maybe he would have been a match for Sephiroth by that point, who knows?

 

[Alex Strife]

Theoretically speaking, Zack's body was more resistant to the cells and Cloud received more influence from the cells. So Zack was either unchanged or "minimally" changed.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I think based on certain facts, it's Cloud. I think Zack could have gotten stronger if he lived, but Cloud definitely has greater potential that can be tapped in certain special circumstances.

But if they just train and train like normal and Nibelheim's massacre didn't happen, I think Cloud would never beat Zack.

 

[Roger]

Zack and Cloud spent four years in a mako tank, Sephiroth spent five years swimming through the Lifestream. After that he absorbed the knowledge of the Ancients by the time AC came around he basically sized control of Lifestream completely.

Cloud definitely beat a stronger Sephiroth then the one Zack couldn't handle at all as far as Ultimania is concerned.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

But wasnt Zack fighting the original Sephiroth? Cloud has fought Jenova/Sephiroth clone and Sephiroth Kadaj/Jenova. Arent they different?

Umm, the Sephiroth you fought at the end of the game was the real Seph, as was ACC Seph. And even if the Jenova fights weren't directly fights with Seph, Jenova was being controlled by Sephiroth. And Cloud has fought 'original Seph' before, back at the Nibelheim reactor, when he managed to beat Sephiroth's ass for the first of many times, though in Sephiroth's defense, Zack had probably weakened him a bit, 'cause Cloud was definitely NOT stronger than Zack at that point. And besides, according to Word of God, ACC Sephiroth is the most powerful form of Sephiroth we've seen yet.

 

[Unlucky]

By all means Zack was one of the strongest people in the planet, but then again his 'opponents' at that time were two deteriorating First Class soldiers, one of whom wanted to commit 'Zackicide' This is excluding a physically well Sephiroth, whom he lost to.

At their peak I think Cloud will win. I think though that one advantage Zack has over Cloud is his unwavering morale.

 

[Abortedj]

Zack. He is more of a solo fighter.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Zack is a naturally gifted Ace who is one of those people who is good at everything he does. He's one of the most accomplished warriors in the FFVII mythos and not to be fucked with, regardless of his SOLDIER treatment; after all, natural talent and ethic does factor in the end, given that SOLDIERS have different ranks according to strength and skill.

Cloud however, is just that dude, despite being, by most definitions, a loser (although one of my favorite characters, so that isn't negative bias. But I mean yes, he is a dorky loser), is a freakishly talented and superhumanly strong individual that constantly defies expectations quite casually, even before his SOLDIER treatment.

I think Cloud is stronger than Zack, but that doesn't mean Zack is weak, either. Cloud is just on another level.

 

[eleamaya]

I can't say anything about game mechanism as I never play the game but from storywise I have headcanon that Zack doesn't have enough reason to beat Sephiroth at that time to make him more powerful (ugh, maybe he still tried to return his friend to sane?) whereas Cloud have so many motivations and anger to make him stronger than he actually is (plus you know Cloud is stronger as SOLDIER after those mako tube treatments).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own, except in the final head to head which I always thought was meant to be taking place in his head (I could well be wrong there, though); he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater, and in ACC, since Kadaj was the only remnant to morph into Sephiroth, we could argue that Sephiroth was fighting at 1/3 of his strength.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^And yet he's still supposed to be stronger by far than he was when he beat up Zack

 

[Flintlock]

But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own ... he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater

I'm not sure how player-controlled battles fit in with the canon, but it's not at all impossible to beat Jenova Synthesis and all three of Sephiroth's forms in the Crater with Cloud alone. I've done it.

 

[Roger]

But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own, except in the final head to head which I always thought was meant to be taking place in his head (I could well be wrong there, though); he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater, and in ACC, since Kadaj was the only remnant to morph into Sephiroth, we could argue that Sephiroth was fighting at 1/3 of his strength.

Quite sure the battle was taking place in the Lifestream rather then Cloud's head.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own, except in the final head to head which I always thought was meant to be taking place in his head (I could well be wrong there, though); he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater, and in ACC, since Kadaj was the only remnant to morph into Sephiroth, we could argue that Sephiroth was fighting at 1/3 of his strength.

One would think so, but it's also just as possible that Sephiroth was the strongest he had ever been during Advent Children. He had been corrupting the Lifestream for two years by that point on top of the power he already had.

I'll have to check the Reunion Files to see if there are any definitive statements about this.

 

[Sprites]

@Tres: I could've sworn I heard about something in the reunion files that Sephiroth did not actually fight Cloud at his full strength in ACC not because he couldn't but he chose not to, or it was implied at least, I'm not sure though, I'm sure you'll find a reference to it better than I can.

I'd like to think that Cloud would beat Zack in a fight. I know we've never seen Zack fight without his enhancements but it's implied that he was very naturally gifted anyway. Cloud's a little different because before being imbued with S-Cells he seems to tap into some sort of boost in strength or a limit break in unusual circumstances yes I'm aware that all the FFVII characters can use limits but there's a scene I believe in Before Crisis where he shows off some pretty major sword skills while trying to protect Professor Rayleigh so much so he impresses the Turk with him and let's not forget he was able to hurl Sephiroth of all people into the Mako Pit of the Nibelhiem reactor while seriously injured I highly doubt just any normal person in the same situation could do that. I'd say if he was made to fight an un-enhanced Zack he'd eventually tap into that power surge and kick his ass. It also goes to show that had Cloud had proper training and control over it, he could have been something really special even before being introduced into SOLDIER.

As for with Mako enhancements and this is just my opinion on it but, I'd say Cloud would be stronger not just because he's had more time to now practice but the S-cells didn't seem to react to Zack (already enhanced) whereas Cloud had a major reaction to them and I'm guessing what they went through was much more concentrated and extreme than normal SOLDIER enhancements, so rather than the S-Cells latching onto someone who was already in SOLDIER and getting mixed in with their enhancements which could have diluted the effect, they latched onto an untouched body giving them a free reign to be even stronger than a person just given a normal SOLDIER enhancement.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This may be relevant:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4255

YMMV and I can understand the idea that Cloud was the "fated one" with untapped reserves of more than mortal power - But, personally, I like the idea of Cloud being an ordinary guy whose big dreams are crushed by the big corporation and the big city, who has to resign himself to the humiliation of never amounting to anything - then, in a moment of intense personal crisis, he finds the superhuman strength to defeat his fallen idol (see link above), as as result of which he gets experimented on by a lunatic until he becomes the very thing he once dreamed of being.

 

[Abortedj]

Question. Are we basing this off canon, or off in game mechanics?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Canon, I'd wager. Game mechanics are usually not really a solid indicator of specifics like this.

 

[Lord Noctis]

In general I would always assume its based on canon unless otherwise stated.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

^That'd be the safe assumption around here.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Question. Are we basing this off canon, or off in game mechanics?

*ahem*

Here's why you don't go off of game mechanics:

Zack has costly punch. His left hand can somehow totally bypass both physical and magical defenses in a way that has to involve bending the reality of the Final Fantasy universe in ways that completely disregard every other established rule. It is completely unquestionable that, under these circumstances, Cloud would be completely and utterly doomed.



X

 

[ForceStealer]

Unless, of course, Cloud had the same materia and got the first move