Cloud's Character

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
I just watched a top 10 Final Fantasy characters video on gametrailers.com. It is found here http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/3o06vw/gt-countdown-top-10-final-fantasy-characters. They leave Cloud out of the list (only FF7 characters they include are Sephiroth and Zack). The video even has a "haha, no Cloud!" part. I know lists like this are subjective and there are so many characters to choose from all the FF games, but this video got me thinking.

There is no doubt Cloud is extremely popular and has become a video game icon, but I think his over exposure has hurt the character. I feel like he was left off the list because of his popularity. I don't think the people who made the video really dug into his character and tried to make a good judgment based on that. I think they just wrote him off as being the emo pretty-boy protagonist that many see him as today.

But in FF7 he was an extremely complex character. From an angry kid who wanted to prove himself, to failing at achieving his lifelong dream, to tragically losing his family and hometown, and becoming an experiment and losing his identity and sense of self in the process, he has had a pretty crappy life. While at times in FF7 these events in his life cause him to lose confidence, become depressed, etc., these particular emotions are temporary moments of weakness, not defining characteristics. No matter what happened, he always got back up and decided to fight even harder. He also constantly put others over himself, which he shows in many instances of not wanting others to put themselves in danger.

He doesn't just mope around all the time feeling bad about himself. Like I said, he does temporarily act this way, but, given the circumstances, I probably would have moments of doubt too if I were him. The compilation doesn't help much with his portrayal, but I think you can make an argument for his melancholy in Advent Children (he is dying) and even Crisis Core (too weak to get into SOLDIER).

I don't want to go too much into this, since I know his character has probably been discussed to death. But I still think he is one of the better written characters in video games, even if others (like gametrailers.com apparently) scoff at his character.
 

Wolfhart

embraces her dreams
AKA
Monik XIII
I agree with you. Sometimes it's like not liking things that are popular makes you popular... :lol:
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Any ranking that treats the Cids as one character shouldn't be given a second thought.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Agreed. And any top 10 list worth taking seriously is going to include Cloud. I'm sorry, but there is no academic take on Final Fantasy that would exclude him.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
On the other hand Cloud has been a favorite of fan girls who like to ship him with Sephiroth. With Sephiroth always being the seme and Cloud being the Uke. Then again in canon it would be one sided on Sephiroth's part.
 

Knuxson

Pro Adventurer
Agreed. And any top 10 list worth taking seriously is going to include Cloud. I'm sorry, but there is no academic take on Final Fantasy that would exclude him.

Yeah, you really can't exclude him. I mean, Cloud had a huge impact on Final Fantasy and video games in general. His importance to the franchise alone should get him on the list. But you also have the fact that he was a really interesting, well-written, character that was very complex at the time the OG came out. He doesn't have to be number 1, but he should be there. I did appreciate that they didn't put Sephiroth at number 1 though.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
yeah i hated it even before i knew about VII people always called cloud an "emo pansy". i never could quite get it. then in the LS (or something that resembled that) i realized all the pain and self exhaustion of his failure he placed on himself, and his mind/soul couldn't take it anymore and at zack's death he was like "OK, THAT'S THE *UCK IT! KISS MY A** GAIA, NICE KNOWING YOU! BECAUSE THIS CLOUD STRIFE IS GONE! AND HELL ITSELF WON'T GET ME BACK!" then he gave the sky a kiss-peace sign and logged out of the world to stay there forever.

i instantly felt so sorry for him, and understood why people called him an "emo pansy". well from a view away i guess he would resemble that to them, but you cant look at any FF character from a stand point and judge them at a quick start, let alone VII's. cloud's failures started at maybe 8yrs old, at the bridge accident. a person he liked "hated" him, and would blame him for as long as she lived. then he felt like he had to redeem himself and promised he would save her years later. then he goes off to be a sephirhero and isnt even an inkling close to it. then his mom and the girl he swore to help out gets fatally wounded, maybe killed, and his best friend gets murdered. and all of this is done by the same company he desired to be a hero at. and is all witnessed in front of his very eyes. seriously think about it. i dont think i would be sturdy on my boots of sanity either, and i doubt there is a human on this planet that would brush it by.
cloud shut down. he couldnt take it anymore. and in the end he rebooted into a hero with no faults and no relationships to bother himself with. no more "If only I was in SOLDIER." I AM in SOLDIER. I AM a hero. and eff it im dang good at it too, so i'll just place myself in a big fat first class rank. im awesome, im cool and this is what im going to be for the rest of my life and im ENJOYING IT. this hero is a bit romanticized and unrealistic but it saved him from a world of drugs the real cloud would probably do.

anyone who says cloud is an emo i just want to punch in the face. because we'd do the same thing too. we may not place everything on our shoulders like cloud did, but we sure as heck would have a ton of traumatization on ourselves. and i give kudos to cloud for finally letting someone get up in his mucked up mind to get back to the real world; because i'd kick tifa out the lifestream and tell her that "News Flash, Tifa. I don't WANT you to get my real self back. I made this personality ON PURPOSE in case you haven't noticed. I HATE my real self, and I sure as heck don't want you to bring me back." cloud braved himself and took the fall anyway. he crashed and was hurled around but he survived, with some terrible wounds, but he survived. and although his friends helped out a lot, in the end he had to get himself back together, and did.

and THAT is why he is popular. because he is one of the most realistic personalities in FF histories. people go through what he went through every day. really if you dont include him in at least A number in the FF character list, you dont know crap about final fantasy. you dont get the point. and i refuse to think otherwise if you dont include him.

hes like Sephy. he may be overrated, but hes really not. hes just that awesome.

and if you go through all of VII and get "emo pansy" from it, maybe even sephiroth would look at you like "HUBBA WAH?!"
 
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Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Well I think the issue is that he IS an emo pansy in Advent Children, which is how 80% of the active fan base met him, and it has colored their opinion of him accordingly. The other 20% were so shocked by the sudden 180 in characterization that we are still bum hurt by the radical shift in fan perception. This article seems like a butthurt fan lashing out.

But also, if you're going to make such an overdone Top 10 list, at least have something meaningful to say.
 

Kuja9001

Ooooh Salty!
AKA
roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
The fact that people are whining about his exclusion excites me.
 

T@ctic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Orah, Iju
Well I think the issue is that he IS an emo pansy in Advent Children, which is how 80% of the active fan base met him, and it has colored their opinion of him accordingly. The other 20% were so shocked by the sudden 180 in characterization that we are still bum hurt by the radical shift in fan perception. This article seems like a butthurt fan lashing out.

But also, if you're going to make such an overdone Top 10 list, at least have something meaningful to say.

i wouldnt call it that at all. emo is used for pathetic little whiners. cloud thought he killed someone and let down another he both cherished. yes, cloud was dragging his past along and did stupid stuff and left his family and went to the church and blah blah blah, and im not justifying that. tifa deserved to chew at him. but that's really hard stuff to deal with. plus that's just in his personality to distance himself and deal with his own problems. he has to learn to open up and let people help him later on in the comp. timeline. i wouldnt call cloud an emo in any case because hes a character you have to analyze and look into. you just cant glance at him and thats it. outside looking in he looks emo, but in reality he's just a very soft guy.

if they didnt include him because he's "too popular", ok. "overrated", i dont see how, but ok. but if they didnt include him because he's a bad character? they/he/she is wrong. you can not like cloud but you cant say hes bad character.

People who actually played the original game call Cloud the Unbuilt Trope of the stereotypical JRPG angsty anime haired hero. A lot of the tropes he inspired are actually deconstructed in his own game.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnbuiltTrope


you visit tv tropes a lot :D
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
i wouldnt call cloud an emo in any case because hes a character you have to analyze and look into. you just cant glance at him and thats it. outside looking in he looks emo, but in reality he's just a very soft guy.

Have you ever encountered a person, real or otherwise, who appeared at first to be a stereotype, but after close examination *didnt* have any reasons for their behavior? Just because Cloud's behavior in Advent Children can be justified (and not very well IMO) it doesn't mean his behavior isn't exactly what people say it is.

you visit tv tropes a lot :D

Yeah she's good for that. But really, all it takes is one visit. The rabbit hole is deep.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I'd say Cloud in Advent Children is more justified in his behaviour then a lot of other characters I can name. But as Ite, his behaviour nevertheless is what it is. And it's not very likable.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Have you ever encountered a person, real or otherwise, who appeared at first to be a stereotype, but after close examination *didnt* have any reasons for their behavior? Just because Cloud's behavior in Advent Children can be justified (and not very well IMO) it doesn't mean his behavior isn't exactly what people say it is.

The term emo has come to imply being disproportionately morose, usually for attention. Given that Cloud has contracted an incurable, terminal illness, I still maintain that he not being freakin' emo or even out of character. Your point about it being what most newcomers to the franchise have seen of him stands. But I don't see why it's not-very-well-justified.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
The term emo has come to imply being disproportionately morose, usually for attention. Given that Cloud has contracted an incurable, terminal illness, I still maintain that he not being freakin' emo or even out of character. Your point about it being what most newcomers to the franchise have seen of him stands. But I don't see why it's not-very-well-justified.

The producers themselves confirmed that in Advent Children they made Cloud into a brooding loner in the movie because of the fact that fans came to interpret Cloud that way through doujins. So, the geostigma in a way was written to justify Cloud's standoffish behavior.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Yeah, I don't particularly care for the claim that Cloud is "emo." Yes, he behaved in a stupid way that hurt the people close to him as he foolishly slumped around blaming himself for things that weren't his fault, but he certainly wasn't what we typically think of when we hear the word -- i.e., an obnoxious well-cared-for teenager trying to appear like a deep, tortured soul when they really aren't.

He did have understandable reasons for why he carried on the way he did. "Justifiable" is not, I think, the word to use here. He felt the way he felt. It doesn't have to be justified. That word implies to me that carrying on the way he did becomes a good thing or the right thing. That's not the case and that's not what's needed here.

What's important is whether the way he acted is understandable, and it is. When people hurt their families in real life with erratic, unpredictable and self-destructive behavior, the question is never whether this behavior was justified. You aren't going to make it okay. The questions are whether they recognize their error, whether they try to fix it, and whether you can understand why they did those things, and, thereby, forgive them.

Maybe the Kingdom Hearts version of Cloud could fairly be called emo, though. We don't really know why he's such a brood fest other than "power of darkness" and "can't face the light of the present," etc. He kind of annoys me, actually. But FFVII's Cloud I love.

People who actually played the original game call Cloud the Unbuilt Trope of the stereotypical JRPG angsty anime haired hero. A lot of the tropes he inspired are actually deconstructed in his own game.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnbuiltTrope

It's really remarkable how FFVII was both seminal and a break with the past, establishing new tropes even as it was deconstructing others that had existed before.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I think the only character in my opinion who wasn't understandably angsting was Vincent in Dirge of Cerberus. I know in the OG that he had gotten over his guilt about everything being his fault but in DOC he is back to crying about his sins against Lucrecia who honestly in this game is one of the most unlikable characters in the Final Fantasy franchise.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
You should look into FF Type-0 and a character named Machina. He might actually be worse.

I looked up him on TV tropes and man he really does sounds overtly wangsty plus a karma houdini who never gets any punishment for his misdeeds. He reminds me a bit of Genesis but that will be for another thread.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
If there were therapists... Hojo would probably found out a lot earlier... and there goes your story.

The There Are No Therapists trope is one those tropes that you almost need nowadays to actually have a villain, as so many villians take the "if only someone would have been there..." line for why they went evil. If the vilains had had therapy... there wouldn't be a story. (Anyone know a deconstruction of this?)
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
If there were therapists... Hojo would probably found out a lot earlier... and there goes your story.

The There Are No Therapists trope is one those tropes that you almost need nowadays to actually have a villain, as so many villians take the "if only someone would have been there..." line for why they went evil. If the vilains had had therapy... there wouldn't be a story. (Anyone know a deconstruction of this?)

Naw, in my opinion Hojo would probably do something horrible to his therapist like dissect his brain or something as equally unpleasant. I think Hojo is one of those villains who would still remain evil even when he was taken to therapy. Hojo's main mantra is that he doesn't care about moral decency and will step on anyone who is in his way.
 
If there were therapists... Hojo would probably found out a lot earlier... and there goes your story.

The There Are No Therapists trope is one those tropes that you almost need nowadays to actually have a villain, as so many villians take the "if only someone would have been there..." line for why they went evil. If the vilains had had therapy... there wouldn't be a story. (Anyone know a deconstruction of this?)

Although I think you're giving a bit too much credit to therapists.
 
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