Cloud's Memories: Lifestream, Jenova, or Heard a Story?

[waw]

We've seen in a couple threads around here that there is some debate around Cloud having constructed his based-a-bit-on-Zack-Persona. When he tells the Nibelheim story, we know from Crisis Core that Cloud knows several things that only Zack experienced such as: Speaking to Sephiroth in the Nibelheim Manor basement, events in the Reactor itself, etc.

There is the scene in the OG in which Cloud speaks to the party and says he heard the story and made it all up. We also know that Mako Poisoning happens with some pretty crazy memory infusion stuff.

What are your takes here? Does Cloud have any of Zack's memories, whether through Jenova or not? Do we have any lore confirmation or explanations?

 

[Torrie]

As for the Nibelheim story... Well, both in the CC retelling of the incident and in Cloud's Kalm version of the events, we can see the other cadet (that is, Cloud) standing at the entrance to the basement. The games probably want us to assume that he didn't follow Zack downstairs. But given the accuracy of Sephiroth's speech in the Shinra basement in both games, I personally headcanon Cloud following Zack all the way to the underground lab and just securing the door or something, so he was able to overhear (and memorize) the entire conversation.

The events in the reactor are a lot more convoluted, so I guess Cloud wasn't present there, hence the duality of the scenes (Sephiroth simply going mad VS Sephiroth going mad after Genesis shows up). The result is a kind of mixture of Cloud's own memories, Zack's stories (I also hc that Zack couldn't shut up about his burdens while carrying vegetable Cloud around the world), and Cloud's sick Jenova-induced imagination that inserted him in the situations where he wished he could have been in.

Since 7R1-3 is a completely different incarnation of FF7 as a phenomenon, I hope to see more coherent explanations of Cloud's mental issues in the future installments.

 

[Eerie]

I always took it as Jenova modified his memories to insert him as Zack, this is why we have this specific memory of Tifa going "I hate them!" in the reactor 5 (which is Zack's POV, clearly).

I mean, she also modifies his memories as a child to make him believe that Tifa had always noticed him, and that they were closer than what they truly were.

 

[Lestat]

I always assumed it was half "he was there" and half "Zack told him what happened" while he was semi comatose from escaping from the nibelheim tanks with Zack. He fabricated himself into the strongest person he knew and who he wished he was and once tifa (who was a massive driver in him wanting to be stronger) finds him his fractured mind just joined the dots. Also explained the segments where he didn't know what happened as neither he nor Zack were present.

 

[Eerie]

But I mean… Jenova is known to manipulate the minds, and also has access to the Lifestream’s memories soooo?? The explanation is that simple. She took Zack’s memories because Cloud wished to be him.

 

[JBedford]

Jenova can steal other's memories, and that's what Sephiroth makes Cloud believe happened (that he is a nobody who was constructed from Tifa's memories) and why they have to find a memory only Cloud could have, however since Cloud is Cloud, he was present in Nibelheim, and knew a SOLDIER 1st who knew the extra details, none of the memory stealing is even required. At first it's believed it must be Jenova why he knows these things but once all is revealed turns out it's all stuff from his own memories.

It can only be considered required if you take that Crisis Core depicts the same scenes verbatim, but that can just be considered a narrative choice to show it's the same scene Cloud is recounting with switched places.

When Cloud explains the situation to the crew after the Lifestream sequence he puts all the blame on his own weakness, but he just says he constructed himself from stories he heard from Zack mixed with what he had seen himself. If Jenova just stole Zack's memories then there's no need for him to hear Zack's stories.

 

[ForceStealer]

Jenova cells were involved, at the very least they were what made it so believable (to Cloud). But like JBedford says, the whole big twist was that Cloud was there. I also imagine Zack absentmindedly talking 'at' the comatose Cloud as a way of processing everything that happened, and Cloud's Jenova-addled brain used that to construct his persona upon encountering Tifa. But that notably did not happen until he ran into Tifa, so Jenova would have had to have retroactively copied Zack's memories?

I guess this is a disorganized way of saying "both." We know from the ultimania that Jenova was braindead at this point, so she wasn't acting on any plan. but the cells' mimicry helped what Cloud wished for himself to feel real.
If she just lifted Zack's memories wholesale, why were there holes like Cloud not remembering how he got into SOLDIER? Wouldn't he just remember how Zack joined up?

 

[Eerie]

If she just lifted Zack's memories wholesale, why were there holes like Cloud not remembering how he got into SOLDIER? Wouldn't he just remember how Zack joined up?

You know, I think you're right, Cloud has his own memories that Jenova cells modify as they "see" fit, so to speak. But Cloud not remembering how he got into SOLDIER might also be due to the fact that he and Zack are from different villages; I mean, IIRC, Cloud did take the exams and didn't pass, right, so he must know the process, at least.

I also remember the Ultimanias/devs casually dropping that Cloud mimicked Zack when he gave the flower to Tifa, in the hope to impress her (and she noticed how it wasn't like him). Or how in Wallmarket he also recalled Zack and what he would be doing right before dancing. Those really aren't precise memories, but most probably how Cloud perceived his character I think? Zack is like a spreadsheet for Cloud and how to act as a SOLDIER, Jenova cells do the rest.

 

[Clement Rage]

All of the above. It's complex.

 

[SoZettaSlow]

Shout out to Tifa for never telling this man the truth until the very end. She literally watched him in the Inn schizopost and didn't say a word. A true hero. I think it's a mix of everything. But most importantly PTSD that probably triggers him to remember himself as the hero of that story and the person he wanted to be. Man got locked in a lab and became someone's rat for months until they finally escaped and his only buddy at the time gets gunned down. The mako, jenova cells, and Sephiroth sword through the abdomen is probably the icing on the cake.

 

[ForceStealer]

Shout out to Tifa for never telling this man the truth until the very end. She literally watched him in the Inn schizopost and didn't say a word. A true hero.

She wasn't 100% sure of her own memories, for one thing. She (thought she) knew that Cloud wasn't there, and yet he knew way too many things that only someone who was there would know. It was also clear there was something wrong with him and didn't know what the effect of calling him on it would be.

...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about.
All the things you didn't know that you should, And other things you shouldn't know that you did...
I wanted to make sure...
...
I wanted to be with you, watch you.

I'm not saying she made the right decision to withhold that. But I get it.

 

[Eerie]

People often forget, but Tifa has a lot going on at this point, as it shows in both Remake and the OG:

- Cloud knows stuff he shouldn't
- she is worried for him
- he doesn't act like himself
- she is not sure of her own memories
- she loves him and wants to believe that he is Cloud of Nibelheim, the boy she loves but also sole survivor with her of the village; he's all that she has left

It is her faith in him that allows him to not collapse; what would have happened, if she had called out his lies in Kalm? Everyone would be confused, he would collapse, no way to get her answers. That's what would have happened, so I think fans should definitely cut the crap about this side of Tifa that actually wanted to know more before acting. Even after Northern Crater, she still wants to meet him again and get answers. She still believes in him.

 

[Clement Rage]

Also, her memories are shaky due to the giant stab wound, she's not sure which are dreams or not. She knows something is up, but that's about it.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

It seems to me that we are given to understand in the Remake that Cloud and Tifa have not exchanged on what happened since 7 years. Only the misunderstanding about the last time they saw each other is staged. At one point Tifa offers to talk about the past with Cloud but this discussion does not take place.
In the original game, the flashback following the whirlwind maze tells us that it was during their initial meeting at the train station that Tifa sensed inconsistencies in Cloud's story. As a result, she decided to enlist him in AVALANCHE, to keep an eye on him. But this cannot be the case in Remake. This is a fundamental difference I find between the two versions and I think it calls into question the reasons for Tifa's commitment in a way.

 

[Eerie]

Even if they didn't talk about what happened 5 years ago, Tifa probably found him in a clone state who became a flashy ex-SOLDIER right after. Of course that would be worrying. There's a reason why it's been incorporated into Remake though, it's so we can see her worry for him grow as the game goes on.

Also Tifa has known reasons to keep an eye on Cloud: she loves him, and she's vowed to ask him what happened in Mount Nibel when they were kids because she doesn't remember that and she wants to know the truth. Both things have been highlighted in ToTP, and it's not pure luck. Something else that has been highlited is how Tifa heard a voice of a man she didn't know when she was down and I wonder if this will also come into play in Kalm (at worst, we will see that in the Lifestream scene I guess). Because out of everyone, Cloud's voice actually changed between the time he left and came back to Nibelheim, so it's a voice she wouldn't know. It can lead her to being more confused about what happened 5 years ago, and trust Cloud more.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

Cloud seems to question Tifa's nature in the Rebirth trailer. Whether the sequence will have this exact meaning in the game is not at all certain, it may be a montage or something else as has already been widely discussed here.
However it seems obvious that the developers are making us wonder about her. And if she is an impostor then she may well be the result of some kind of rebirth (and a red one). (theory)
I find that Remake and its comparison with OG also bring elements that cast doubt. It would probably be a shame to miss their study.

 

[ForceStealer]

I assumed it was just her overreacting to his comment that he thought she was a goner. (The overreaction fueled by her own uncertainty about what exactly all went down.)

But it's true that anything is possible at this point.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think Cloud's questioning Tifa's nature - we already know through ToTP that this is the real Tifa. I think her line happens at the Northern Crater, just like @Makoeyes987 guessed, because it's the perfect moment when they're being manipulated by Sephiroth with his mind games, and Cloud probably goes too far in denying the truth, so Tifa has to step up. IMHO I'll even go as far as saying that this line is the one that will break Cloud.

Like, none of those lines in the trailer actually answer the other because SE is devilish like that lol.

 

[jeangl123]

There's plenty of confirmation that it's memories. See this thread for all mentions in ultimanias starting from Omega. Can't say for sure since the OG and one section of UO did have Cloud say it was "Zack's stories," but everything after says memories so make of that what you will I guess.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542254670252593157

If you don't put much stock in ultimania's, here's the evidence from the actual games. Another issue is differences in localization. The dialogue in Zack and Cloud's versions of the Nibelheim are the exact same, including Sephiroth's dialogue in the reactor and basement. If it is just Zack's stories, this could be handwaved as video game logic

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541691993587191808

いや おまえはもう 俺の知ってるセフィロスじゃない - Exact same Japanese for all three.

The exact moment it happened is revealed in the CCU Event team interview, where Momose goes over what the final scene was trying to depict. Oh and the reason Cloud stands up is because of Sephiroth lol

All translations are by the Shinra Archeology Department

 

[jeangl123]

Also, Cloud scanned Tifa's memories as well. They seem to have included a nod to it in Remake lol.

 

[waw]

There's plenty of confirmation that it's memories.

Thank you for a diligent research, sourcing, and taking the time to post this. I seemed to remember this being the case, but this helps a lot.

 

[jeangl123]

For sure! And Turquoise also just did their translation for the Material Ultimania script where it has the most recent mention of Zack's memories.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549799321788452865

 

[rkss]

Been awhile since my last post.
Anyway, I believe Sephiroth does drop some hint when they're Northen crater.
Obviously, Sephiroth's trying to break Cloud and he isn't telling the whole truth and we later know Cloud was there when picture was taken so this' false. But it still doesn't explain how does Cloud knows things only Zacks knows.

The occam's razor answer here is obviously "Zack told Cloud so" but for me:
A- It's an unsatisfactory answer. At no point during the game, it's hinted that Cloud witnessed everything.
Tbf, he did see major parts of it but the part got me confused was when Cloud!Zack talked with Sephiroth in Shinra Library. Cloud wasn't there.
B- Where's the fun? Are we, the audiences supposed to believe the whole thing was a red herring? And Jenova's cells did nothing to Cloud's mind well, except few headaches?

I think I'll go with Sephiroth's explanation here, minus the mind breaking part.

 

[jeangl123]

View attachment 12789


Been awhile since my last post.
Anyway, I believe Sephiroth does drop some hint when they're Northen crater.
Obviously, Sephiroth's trying to break Cloud and he isn't telling the whole truth and we later know Cloud was there when picture was taken so this' a false. But it still doesn't explain how does Cloud knows things only Zacks knows.

The occam razor answer here is obviously "Zack told Cloud so" but for me,
A- It's an unsatisfactory answer. At no point during the game, it's hinted that Cloud witnessed everything.
Tbf, he did see major parts of it but the part got me confused was when Cloud!Zack talked with Sephiroth in Shinra Library. Cloud wasn't there.
B- Where's the fun? Are we, the audiences supposed to believe the whole thing was a red herring? And Jenova's cells did nothing to Cloud's mind well, except few headaches?

I think I'm going with Sephiroth's explanation here, minus the mind breaking part.

The best lies are a form of the truth! Lol.

 

[S.L.Kerrigan]

It's crazy that by the time he realizes he wasn't Zack , Cloud is actually made up in part of Zack's memories (The other part being something coming from Tifa).

Edit:
And if Cloud had access to Tifa's memory through Jenova, this fact probably invalidates the accepted resolution of the Lifestream scene. Indeed, there is no longer any evidence that each carries authentic memories of the past relationship.