Damn son, everything is Hojo's fault, isn't it?

[Cat Rage Room]

Let's recap.

-If it wasn't for Hojo, Aerith's father and mother would still both be alive. If we really want to get into the specifics of messing with 'what could have' happened, we could argue that Aerith might not exist due to Gast never having a reason to leave Shinra, but if he did anyway, Hojo is the one that was responsible for both their deaths.

-While Gast was the one who started the projects that eventually gave birth to Sephiroth, Sephiroth HIMSELF is Hojo's son, and if it wasn't for his bright idea to inject Jenova into his pregnant woman/wife/bang lab partner/buddy and completely screw her over afterwards, Sephiroth might not exist.

-If it wasn't for Hojo, Vincent wouldn't have been shot, experimented on, and turned into a depressed hobo. He'd still be a Turk working for Shinra.

-On that note, if it wasn't for Hojo, present day Shinra may not exist. It was Hojo who perfected the method for the SOLDIER procedure, and it it wasn't for SOLDIER, it's reasonable to speculate that Shinra wouldn't have won the Wutai War, and even if they didn't lose, they would have been crushed under the pressure of Wutai's armed remnants, AVALANCHE, and the others. Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, and Zack wouldn't be around (and in the case of S, G, and A, might not even exist) to save their asses.

-Deepground wouldn't exist in its present form due to SOLDIER not existing, and Dirge of Cerberus wouldn't have happened.

-Cloud and Zack would have never met, but at least they'd still be normal people doing their own thing, with Cloud not having a slew of mental disorders and Zack not being dead.

It may not be as simple as this, but I always figured this was more or less the gist of it. Anything else? Anyone want to pick this apart and discuss?

 

[Tetsujin]

- Dirge of Cerberus wouldn't have happened.

Damn you, Hojo! DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

 

[Glaurung]

Hojo was the most important character in FFVII. Almost every branch of the story points out to him as the culprit.

Heh, it would be funny to make an "Ace Attorney" fancase and bring Hojo to court... but then it would be very boring, since everyone knows he's the bad one. Oh well.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

No, Hojo basically causes everything. The only thing I can point to as not necessarily being his "fault" is Wutai. SOLDIER did help them win, but there is a possibility that the Shinra army would have been able to beat Wutai. Even if they didn't, Wutai seemed to have no interest in imperial expansion, so Shinra could always cut their losses & try again later, or make good with what they had.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Hojo is basically the Dahlia Hawthorne of FFVII.

 

[Loxetta]

Hojo couldn't have done anything if he didn't have anything to work with So Jenova is just as much to blame for existing, and the Shinra family are just as much to blame for hiring him and giving him the resources.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The only thing I can point to as not necessarily being his "fault" is Wutai. SOLDIER did help them win, but there is a possibility that the Shinra army would have been able to beat Wutai.

Ehhh...

It took them about a DECADE to win the war against Wutai, and this is WITH Sephiroth. Angeal, Genesis, and the rest of SOLDIER. This isn't even counting the off the record resistance that Wutai put up years afterwards. I'm not speaking against Shinra's military power, but Wutai must have been the shit back in the day.

The fact that they didn't burn Wutai to the ground when they won, and their royal family got to keep their sovereignty, and the Wusheng, the leaders of their military are still chilling in their Pagoda like they're the shit speaks volumes of their political power. Even Shinra knows what they can and can't get away with.

Even if they didn't, Wutai seemed to have no interest in imperial expansion, so Shinra could always cut their losses & try again later, or make good with what they had.

Of course, but like I said, in the hypothetical that they lost against Wutai, AVALANCHE could have dealt them the final blow, or barring that, Shinra just could have fell under its own weight. Of course that's hypothetical, but rather likely, I think.

 

[Edley]

Little known fact: Wutai had Lu Bu.

Spoiler

 

[Winter]

Honestly, I've always thought Hojo was the best villian in any FF game.

He was just so fucking evil. And crazy.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Hojo is a great mad scientist. In fact, I bet if none of this other shit had existed, Hojo would have just invented it so that he could use it to invent more problems for the world. Indeed, this whole discussion is pointless, as Hojo would have just invented himself from nonexistence through his sheer insanity.

The problem I have with the hypothetical is that there are too many unknowns. I don't see a war as necessarily weakening Shinra to the point that AVALANCH would have destroyed it. In fact, without Hojo, AVALANCH would have been nothing like it was, because it would have been without Elfe--or at least she wouldn't have the power of the Zirconaide shard, Sears--because Elfe won him over by defeating his bandits, or Fuhito--self-explanatory, really.

 

[ForceStealer]

What I find most interesting about all of that is not only does Hojo cause EVERY problem on the Planet, he also causes EVERY solution.

MOG already listed them all, but just in a different light - He created Sephiroth and made him the monster he is, but he also caused Cloud to have the strength needed to kill him.

He tricked the Planet int producing Omega, but, as he says himself, his experiments gave Vincent the body he needed to host Chaos, which was the only thing that could ave stopped Omega.

It's all so deliciously ironic

 

[Edley]

Hojo is basically the Dahlia Hawthorne of FFVII.

Never trust a woman in pink. Just when you think she's dead...

 

[Vendel]

Never trust a woman in pink. Just when you think she's dead...

I knew we couldn't trust Aerith in AC.

 

[Mantichorus]

What, people are just realising this? However, based on the structure of the ShinRa, I feel that if it wasn't Hojo (who, alternatively, could have been locked up in an asylum where he belongs), it would have been someone else.

Who might have been worse. So, yeah.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Never trust a woman in pink. Just when you think she's dead...

how can you say something so heartless...

Spoiler

motherfucker

 

[Josh Kitsune]

Hojo is evil. Full stop. End of story. Contract terminated!

 

[jazzflower92]

Some people say Gast should have left well enough alone and just let Jenova stay unfrozen because after what Shinra and Hojo managed to do it would have probably been for the better.Especially in the case of the fact that both didn't care about the fact that what they had in their possession was a parastic alien that could wipe all life out.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^But they didn't know that Jenovea was a parastic alien and not a Cetra until well after a ton of experiments had already been done and Gast had left Shin-Ra. I can't fault them for digging Jenova up; heck, that's what paleontologists do all the time (are are continuing to do in FFVII in Bone Village). You could make the argument that that's what they were supposed to do.

Where both Gast and Hojo messed up was doing crazy experiments on humans and doing those experiments not because of scientific knowledge, but because a company was expecting certain results from them

 

[jazzflower92]

^^But they didn't know that Jenovea was a parastic alien and not a Cetra until well after a ton of experiments had already been done and Gast had left Shin-Ra. I can't fault them for digging Jenova up; heck, that's what paleontologists do all the time (are are continuing to do in FFVII in Bone Village). You could make the argument that that's what they were supposed to do.

Where both Gast and Hojo messed up was doing crazy experiments on humans and doing those experiments not because of scientific knowledge, but because a company was expecting certain results from them

Gast seems to be interested in obtaining scientific knowledge but at some time began compromising his values while working for Shinra.Hojo on the other hand probably from the get go was all about obtaining any results that would fuel his scientific curiosity.Gast was someone who probably who would if given the chance could turn back time and prevent himself from making the biggiest mistake that could doom the planet.Hojo on the other hand probably would not have given a hoot and probably would have found a way to try to find new directions to experiment with Jenova.

 

[Roger]

^^But they didn't know that Jenovea was a parastic alien and not a Cetra until well after a ton of experiments had already been done and Gast had left Shin-Ra. I can't fault them for digging Jenova up; heck, that's what paleontologists do all the time (are are continuing to do in FFVII in Bone Village). You could make the argument that that's what they were supposed to do.

Where both Gast and Hojo messed up was doing crazy experiments on humans and doing those experiments not because of scientific knowledge, but because a company was expecting certain results from them

The idea was that a Cetra could lead them to the Promised Land. The aim was therefore, acquiring otherwise inaccessible knowledge.

 

[jazzflower92]

I always wondered if Hojo was ever interested in finding the promise land or he just was interested anything that could be of scientific value.

 

[Arianna]

With Hojo, all things are possible.






But that is not good. Not always. Usually.

 

[jazzflower92]

With Hojo, all things are possible.






But that is not good. Not always. Usually.

I still surprised that he didn't even try thinking of breeding Sephiroth with Aerith.I know he probably wouldn't want his prized specimen being contaminated with what he considered Gast's legacy but I actually think President Shinra wouldn't be above actually thinking about doing it.I mean it seems both the President and Hojo are just two minds who are very sociopathic in thinking which could be why the guy probably let Hojo get away with all the stuff that he did.

 

[Roger]

I still surprised that he didn't even try thinking of breeding Sephiroth with Aerith.I know he probably wouldn't want his prized specimen being contaminated with what he considered Gast's legacy but I actually think President Shinra wouldn't be above actually thinking about doing it.I mean it seems both the President and Hojo are just two minds who are very sociopathic in thinking which could be why the guy probably let Hojo get away with all the stuff that he did.

Aerith was like 9 years old when she and Iflana escaped Shinra. Maybe they did have plans for breeding another Ancient but there certainly wasn't any reason to do so immeadiately when Iflana and Aerith were still alive and under Shinra control.

 

[jazzflower92]

Aerith was like 9 years old when she and Iflana escaped Shinra. Maybe they did have plans for breeding another Ancient but there certainly wasn't any reason to do so immeadiately when Ifland and Aerith were still alive and under Shinra control.

I mean when Aerith was entering her teen years.I would have a feeling they would have plans for that kind of thing.