Did Hojo manipulate Lucrecia? [split from Repository of Debunked Rumors]

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki
And I don't imagine being a Turk is exactly a position you can rage quit.
If he did, and considering the nature of his work, who's to say they wouldn't dispose of him? Which might've been Hojo's sentiment. But like you said, Vincent didn't expect it from him.

I still say Hojo's a grandiose narcissist and always was. Narcissists, in 99.99% of cases get worse the older they become. So, younger Hojo was likely not as arrogant and psychotic as he is now.

I don't know if any of you have seen Hanna, but the back story of that movie/show is basically if this exact scenario happened.
Never seen it. But thanks for the tip, I might check it out.
 

Rhoey

Follow your heart.
AKA
Nikki
I strongly agree. Dude is easily the most depraved character in the FF7 universe and it's fascinating to try to figure out what makes him tick. Dark tetrad for sure.
That's precisely why he's such a fascinating villain; because his behavior is realistic and common, not some edgy "the world is a cruel and twisted place, I have been wronged, therefore I need to burn it all down" motivation. I don't throw around the term Narcissist casually, and it needs to be said, because it's become popular to call everyone a narcissist nowadays (ironically, there's truth in that - we are all narcissistic to some extent). But we have all met and dealt with at least one in our lives. Could be a parent, a boss, a co-worker, a lover, a friend - anyone. Narcissistic traits are easy to pinpoint when you know how they operate. It's like they all follow the same playbook. And they almost always choose positions of power, believe that they are superior to everyone and always right, but deep down, behind the facade, they are deeply insecure, and hate themselves. That's why they are sadistic. One who doesn't love and respect themselves is incapable of extending love and respect towards others. And one look at Hojo suggests that the dude is the type of person who would end up dying alone in a nursing home, abusing the healthcare staff that looks after him and making everyone's lives hell before he finally kicks the bucket, lol.
 
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Redfang

Rookie Adventurer
It wouldn’t take much for Hojo to manipulate Lucrecia. How many female scientists of note were there at Shinra anyway? Two, as far as I can tell, Lucrecia and Gillian Hewley. All Hojo would have to do is imply she’s not a “real” scientist if she didn’t go along with his experiment…which is how I interpreted the whole “came to your senses” line (ie: choosing her career over love…something Hojo likely saw as weakness). The whole “running into Hojo’s arms” could have been Lucrecia’s way of driving the point home to Vincent and not from any feelings for Hojo.

I always thought Sephiroth had been conceived in a test tube and Hojo was just donating his genetic material. Why would he leave something so important to the randomness of the act of procreation, after all? :awesome:
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
We have no idea how many female scientists of note Shinra has. I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume they're all male until proven otherwise.
Lucrecia, Gillian, Rayleigh, Estes-D in Deepground... it's not like we don't see female scientists in Shinra.

That said, with how depraved Hojo is, and all of his sick experiments, wanting to experiment on his own child, the thing that I really don't understand, the part that's just a big gaping plothole for me:

Why didn't Hojo forcibly procreate with Ifalna? Whether extracting an egg or rape, it's not like his morals are in the way here. Aerith seems to recall a tortured Ifalna. Did Jenova's connections to Hojo just make him want to torment Cetra? No, he wanted to "breed" Aerith but why not with his genetic material?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Why didn't Hojo forcibly procreate with Ifalna? Whether extracting an egg or rape, it's not like his morals are in the way here. Aerith seems to recall a tortured Ifalna. Did Jenova's connections to Hojo just make him want to torment Cetra? No, he wanted to "breed" Aerith but why not with his genetic material?
Maybe Hojo even has standards? lol I mean, that's a... pretty intense question :monster:

I'm pretty certain Hojo wanted Aerith.... bred with unique genetic material that comes from SOLDIER, and Hojo is just a normal human. So, yeah. That's probably why he wouldn't be doing things that way.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
I'm pretty certain Hojo wanted Aerith.... bred with unique genetic material that comes from SOLDIER, and Hojo is just a normal human. So, yeah. That's probably why he wouldn't be doing things that way.
I get that logic for Aerith. Less about him and more about getting Jenova material into a Cetra. Okay, fine.
But he doesn't do that with Ifalna? Either breed her, take her eggs, or whatever? I mean, forcing her to play the role of Lucrecia and give him a a Cetra halfbreed with Jenova cells? I just don't see why didn't. Especially knowing she was the last pure-blood Cetra.

Maybe the President protected her? Had strict rules? (But even then, Hojo doesn't seem to care too much when it comes to his experiments). I just don't get it.

And I shouldn't obsess over this fact as much as I do. But I really, really do. Some experimentation that Hojo did led to Ifalna's death. We don't know what. Maybe he was injecting her with J Cells and her Cetra body just decided to kill itself? I don't know. But I really really really need this answered definitively XD

Chadley.... do you know something I don't?
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
I'm gonna wager that's not the reason.

If we stick with the thread of some VinDad headcanons, it's possible Hojo was shooting blanks.
I'm probably posting too much here XD sorry all. That said, should Rebirth establish that Vincent is Seph's dad, I'd be one happy camper. What a twist years and years in the making. I'd be totally satisfied, but I doubt that'll be the case.

But even so, if Hojo can't pop out a baby himself, I still suspect he'd breed Ifalna. The game does even directly talk about this. In Remake and the OG even, he plans on breeding Aerith to not lose another Cetra. So I guess he was satisfied experimenting on Ifalna and that Aerith (a half cetran) was a fine backup and seen as just useless in comparison. And I'd probably be sated with that part of it, but I'll still be left deeply unsatisifed with the notions of Hojo not experimenting with Ifalna's cells and Jenova cells in some sort of freakish chimeric being. (Maybe that's the Heretic transformation for Rayleigh and Hojo, again, satisfied and done). Maybe it'll be the Psychic P kid from CC (maybe that'll be Chadley?). I'm not sure. I just hope somewhere, at some point, we get some sort of consideration.

I figure some of the experimetns had to drain Ifalna of blood and keep it in storage or something. After all, Hojo and Shinra are willing to wait for Aerith for some time. There really should be a deep expalantion for this.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
That said, should Rebirth establish that Vincent is Seph's dad, I'd be one happy camper.
Personally, I would really love it if Rebirth establishes that Vincent believes there is a possibility he is Sephiroth's father without confirming it. The uncertainty just enhances the tragedy for me.

As for Hojo, there is nothing I would put past him. Nothing. If we want to rationalize the fact that he didn't breed Ifalna, we probably have to assume that she could not have any more children for some reason or other.
 

Mobius Stripper

perfectly normal human worm baby
AKA
PunkassDiogenes
But Hojo doesn't seem like the kind of guy who is concerned with what is "needed." He would be far more interested in what can be done than what needs to be done. If there's something he can do to get himself more toys to play with, however perverted it is, he's gonna do it. Ex. Trying to get Aerith and Nanaki to bone..."for science."
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
The point of the Sephiroth project is to create a Cetra, once Ifalna shows up they don't need another one. Aerith already is a spare.
Right, but the Jenova Project continues, it seems, well past Hojo's intentions or plans to create a Cetra, or even Project 0 (to create a strong warrior). For Hojo, it's about the Reunion. We see that he's even toying with this after Sephiroth's death in Nibelheim up to five years ago.

So she can't have kids/can't breed her. Makes sense. That's logical to the mythology. But did he pump her full of Jenova cells? Is that why she was sick and dying? Lucrecia seemingly can't die, the body won't reject them. Frankly, a line that Ifalna's body began rejecting an infusion and so she was dying? That'd work wonderful, but it raises concerns about breeding Aerith with a SOLDIER. (S or G type). He's very interested in Remake in not just making a spare Cetra (which is definitely part of it), but making sure it is with someone with J Cells in them. I don't think that's an accident.
 
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