And, it looks completely awesome. In fact, this Cloud is probably IMO the best HD render of Cloud I've seen so far that actually stays true to the style of the original game (this is really what I'd want stylistically for the remake).
(also, notice the summons, Midgar etc. It's glorious. If only the remake would capture the spirit of the original as well as those designs I'd seriously go mad)
Having seen this, I am really left wondering if this has something to do with the remake. Not saying the game is going to come out on Nintendo consoles or anything like that, but perhaps it's a part of a SE marketing scheme to cash in on the remake by using an iconic character that is probably going to become even more iconic with the release of the remake.
Putting Cloud, which is about to appear on PS4 in Smash, might be a clever way of bringing Nintendo fans over to the dark side - or conversely bringing FF7 fans back over to Nintendo.
Also, since Cloud is a licensed SE character, there is no way Nintendo could do this without some sort of oversight, so it makes me wonder if the design might actually be close to what we can expect from the remake?
What's your guy's thoughts on this? Totally unrelated, or something more?
(also, this thread is really stretching relevancy in terms of the remake, and I'm not entirely comfortable making it, so if any mods have a better idea for a place to put it, please by all means move it)
Besides the fact that we have very different tastes and very different views regarding how the style of FF7 remake should be like:
IMO these particular models have been developed to be able to blend in the style of Super Smash Bros. The shading techniques are very basic, which remain suitable for a "cartoon-style" rendition. I believe the main goal here is for SE to remind the gaming community that FF7 is still very much alive - they don't want the hype they've caused the with remake announcement to die out.
However, I don't think these assets were developed for being used in the remake itself, I would personally expect the style of the remake to be closer to what was shown in the E3 trailer. If nothing else, I'd believe the rendition of Cloud for Dissidia-Arcade would be closer to what we should expect for the remake.
I agree with Mayo, I think stylistically-wise, this Cloud in the Smash Bros. is made this way to fit the game's own style.
I fully expect the Remake to have things appear as realistically as possible in the graphics department. I'm thinking graphics like XIII or better (if possible).
I think it's SE's way of staying relevant in the current and the now, and may possibly plug Cloud as much as possible in a few places to keep people pumped up around the Remake. A gentle reminder that it's around the corner.
I also think it's a good way of showing that there's no bad blood amongst them and Nintendo.
... but perhaps it's a part of a SE marketing scheme to cash in on the remake by using an iconic character that is probably going to become even more iconic with the release of the remake.
Putting Cloud, which is about to appear on PS4 in Smash, might be a clever way of bringing Nintendo fans over to the dark side - or conversely bringing FF7 fans back over to Nintendo.
Definitely this. It's a completely unexpected, but really smart move. And obviously with the amount of time it takes to create, set out the moves and animate a character, this has been in the pipeline for quite some time now.
It bodes well for the 'momentum' we were discussing in the other thread about winter news expectations. I'm even more pumped that it is going to be something massive and unexpected.
IMO these particular models have been developed to be able to blend in the style of Super Smash Bros. The shading techniques are very basic, which remain suitable for a "cartoon-style" rendition.
I am inclined to agree with this. Worth mentioning that Snake has been included in Smash earlier, and his style was not exactly cartoon-like, so it doesn't really seem like they feel forced to do this - but design each character according to the unique vision they have for the characters.
In this case, I feel they wanted to keep the character true to the original game - which is why the video features original FF7 tracks, rather than remixes, and they've kept Cloud's original Limit Breaks, the original magic and summon magic effects, and the original sound effects.
I believe the main goal here is for SE to remind the gaming community that FF7 is still very much alive - they don't want the hype they've caused the with remake announcement to die out.
However, I don't think these assets were developed for being used in the remake itself, I would personally expect the style of the remake to be closer to what was shown in the E3 trailer. If nothing else, I'd believe the rendition of Cloud for Dissidia-Arcade would be closer to what we should expect for the remake.
I agree. Of course they're not going to be using the assets as they are.
On the other hand, I don't think we should look to the teaser too much for anything, since it's entirely pre-rendered and was made specifically for the announce - it's most likely not a compilation of footage that will actually be in the remake.
This is made apparent from the first shots of Midgar, which feature purposefully changed architecture that is inconsistent with the original Midgar design, despite the latter half of the trailer only featuring architecturally accurate depictions of the original Midgar.
It's made apparent by the children fighting with miniature Buster Swords, and the monologue going on in the background.
The entire trailer was made purposefully to confuse and then shock the people watching it, and to generate hype. I'd be very surprised if even a single scene from it is featured in the actual game they're working on and so I'm not sure we can even rely on the visual presentation as representative of what the game is actually going to look like.
But I agree - as much as I'd like the remake to look closer to what we see here in Smash, it's probably going to look like what we see from the new Dissidia.
I guess, I'm just hoping that there is a bit more to this.
If this is a (smart) PR move, one thing I'd say is important for this to be effective, is for Cloud to be consistent in his portrayal throughout the new media where he makes an appearance.
So, what I am saying is that, it's no good for Smash to include a Cloud to generate hype and awareness amongst a new crowd of gamers by showing off a Cloud that has little to nothing in common with the Cloud that they'll be served later by the remake - whom is more likely to be their only real reference point (since they probably won't have played the original FF7).
New fans brought on board from the remake will only bother picking up Smash for a Cloud they recognize, and vice versa, and so it's smart for the two companies to align their designs.
That leads me to think that the iconic spell-casting effects, the summons etc. very well might show up in the remake as is I.E true to the original - and that would be awesome.
I know I am stretching this though - just saying, there might be a tiny chance that this is an actual taste of what to expect from the remake in terms of stylistic presentation.
Well, to be fair, in the OG he didn't have a voice. And the few lines he has in the trailer are pretty much consistent with the kind of stuff he would say in the OG post his memory fix.
Smash Cloud is truer to the original game than Dissidia Cloud. The folks at Nintendo do a better job of respecting the roots of FF7 than SE... which is hilarious because FF7 is the game that split the two companies apart.
FF7 was made to have an anime look and feel. SE keeps making the mistake of trying to force FF7 into the realistic aesthetic of their recent games. I understand that change isn't inherently bad, but let's be honest, if we wanted something new we wouldn't still be obsessing over the same game from 1997 after all this time.
Was it really?? I never thought that, even playing the original game. The art for the characters looks manga-ish, but the game itself just looks like a game with the best graphics it could have at the time, polygons.
doesn't look at all like it was supposed to have an anime feel, to me anyway. If that was their intent, I didn't see it.
The only FF game that didn't look as realistic as it could've been when it was made was FFIX, due to the character proportions.
Was it really?? I never thought that, even playing the original game. The art for the characters looks manga-ish, but the game itself just looks like a game with the best graphics it could have at the time, polygons.
doesn't look at all like it was supposed to have an anime feel, to me anyway. If that was their intent, I didn't see it.
I'd say Barret, Heidegger, Palmer, President Shinra and Tifa all had cartoonish character proportions. And Cloud and Sephiroth certainly had anime hairstyles.
Was it really?? I never thought that, even playing the original game. The art for the characters looks manga-ish, but the game itself just looks like a game with the best graphics it could have at the time, polygons.
doesn't look at all like it was supposed to have an anime feel, to me anyway. If that was their intent, I didn't see it.
The only FF game that didn't look as realistic as it could've been when it was made was FFIX, due to the character proportions.
Perhaps you didn't see it because you didn't have the knowledge necessary to draw that parallel at the time?
This was their intent when they had Nomura draw the characters the way he did instead of having him draw them with a less classical anime look, or going with a difference character designer all together.
I would also say you're looking at it the wrong way - It's not anime design is the closest they could get to realism due to hardware limitations etc.
The graphical design is the closest they could get to an anime look on the characters with the graphics of the time.
Before anyone goes there though - pointing the environments is a moot point - since going for hand-drawn or more cartoonish backgrounds when you're forced to use simple 3D graphics for the characters that could not at that point in time accurately replicate the anime/manga look of the characters (like we can now with cell-shading for instance) would never be opted for considering how jarring it would look.
The fact here though is that the FMV's obviously show facial designs consistent with the character portraits, as does the battle models - which would be in anime style.
Anyone who can't see that either aren't looking, don't know what to look for, or are just trying very very hard to rationalize away that fact.
Point in case, each of the pictures you picked conveniently have characters facing away from the shot obscuring their obvious anime facial features - a design choice that has nothing to do with graphical limitations at all, since A.) the field and battle models faces are textures drawn on the models, and therefore not subject to any graphical limitation that would prohibit the use of more realistic facial designs, and B.) the FMV models have no such restrictions what so ever. (point in case, dated 2D graphics with chibi characters in older FF games, didn't prevent Squaresoft/SE from adding FMVs using realistic proportions and designs attempting to be true to Amano's art-style.
I'm not saying you did this on purpose - but it's telling that you ended up doing it anyways. Perhaps it's time to reconsider your position on this matter?
That being said, everyone's entitled to their preferences, and I don't have a problem with people preferring to the art-direction of the franchise.
Seriously though, people need to stop pretend the new art style is somehow an extension of the old, or that there hasn't been a major shift aesthetically speaking AKA FF7 wasn't anime styled.
It absolutely was, and that is not open to debate -
That "debate" end in 1997 with (warning : large picture)
combined with the fact that every battle model in game, and every FMV reflects this art-style directly as is, despite the fact that there was no inherent need to have this be the case.
RE1 was released a year before FF7. If they wanted "realistic" for FF7, they could have easily reduced the eye-sizes, changed the jaw-lines, fixed the tiny anime noses, and ridiculous anime hair on the majority of this cast, and have that be reflected with the battle models and in FMVs, while still using abstract chibi models in the field.
In fact, they didn't even need to use chibi models in the field - they chose to do so specifically as a homage to the design of the earlier titles to make the game feel close to the other titles of the series.
There literally is not a single reason why FF7 would look the way it
did if not for a conscious commitment to a traditional
Japanese anime design that was very common and popular in Japan
at the time.
There really is nothing more to be said than that.
^When I first played the game it was about 6 years ago, I knew of anime when I was a little kid, so it wasn't me not being aware of anime.
It could also have to do with me having seen Advent Children first, and thus the game just looked like a cartoony/limited graphics version of those realistic characters.
I do agree that that concept art is in a manga style, like I said in my previous post. Also, I'd like to add that I do see definite 'anime styles' throughout the character designs in the game (like FF IX, where the character's had a definite manga-esque look to their faces). But playing the whole game, it doesn't constantly strike me as "This is supposed to look like an anime", which I guess was my point earlier. The FMV parts were 3D, they weren't anime scenes (like the Tales games, who's FMV's are always played like an anime).
Here's some pics without them conveniently faced away from the camera:
Like major Zero said too, some of the hairstyles are definitely anime-esque. Also, the facial features have that anime look too. But I did think this also had to do with graphical limitations at the time, and wasn't all based on wanting the game to look like an anime.
I thought they used the chibi field models to save on space on the game discs (sort of how in Kingdom Hearts 3D they used the Sora model from the first KH game when fighting and during gameplay, but beefed him up to his KH2 look during the cutscenes).
You make a lot of good points hian, I just still don't look at the entire og and think it's supposed to look like an anime.
Which means I think the realistic style suits them well.
^When I first played the game it was about 6 years ago, I knew of anime when I was a little kid, so it wasn't me not being aware of anime. It could also have to do with me having seen Advent Children first, and thus the game just looked like a cartoony/limited graphics version of those realistic characters. .
I think that probably has a lot to do with it. Almost every single person I've ever talked to who got into FF7 through AC have a completely different conception and idea of pretty much everything to do with FF7.
I'm not going to into how I feel about that, but suffice it to say, I think there is something to be said about interpreting FF7 in light of something that was made nearly a decade later without the creative producer of the original involved.
This is because, at the time, not only was this an entirely ordinary and accepted aesthetic that had an appeal in and of itself amongst gamers of the era, it was actually cheaper a lot of the time to create, what for the times, would be considered "high fidelity FMVs" compared to creating high-quality hand-drawn anime cut-scenes.
The tales of games from that era featured relatively few anime cut-scenes and had more of a budget to spend on that because they spent less on everything else compared to FF games.
The question you should be asking is - when they wouldn't be able to make good cartoony 3D characters that would blend well, why would they make hand-drawn backgrounds?
They wouldn't.
The next question you should ask after that is, if they wouldn't make hand-drawn backgrounds, why would they make hand-drawn cutscenes, when the creators themselves said that large part of the reason for transitioning to the new visual style was to allow for cinematic transitions between game-play and cut-scenes, which would necessitate 3D environments and 3D FMVs?
It literally would make no sense for FF7 to use animated cut-scenes and that's true regardless of the art-direction of the game.
This isn't just true for FF7, you see it reflected in a lot of games -
Grandia has 3D cut-scenes, despite using sprites and having obvious anime design.
Suikoden 2 has a 3D FMV intro, despite using 2D graphics and sprites.
Xenogears blends animated characters with 3D graphics in it's FMVs (I suspect FF7 might have done the same if it had been delayed until 1998, the year where many RPGs doing this started to came out).
I could keep on going, but this should suffice I think, for making this point.
Like major Zero said too, some of the hairstyles are definitely anime-esque. Also, the facial features have that anime look too. But I did think this also had to do with graphical limitations at the time, and wasn't all based on wanting the game to look like an anime.
And as I said - that is wrong.
Several interviews with the developers have them going on about how they were completely overwhelmed by the dev tools they were provided by Sony, and that they literally felt like they could do anything.
FF7 was created almost entirely organically, through constant brain-storming and pushing of limits.
It looks like graphical limitations in hind-sight because of the improvements of FF8 and FF9, but this is literally simply because of gains in experience, and a change in vision.
If they had more time and money, FF7 would look better sure - but it would still look, aesthetically speaking, the same.
We can say this for certain, because since the developers say they did not feel limited by the hardware and software of the time, rather the exact opposite (because it was revolutionary for the time), that they made what they wanted to make, not what they felt forced to make by limitations.
Furthermore, concept art and character design proceeds actual 3D modelling, and we have concept art of Chibi characters and the anime characters from the very get-go.
If they made those design choices due to limitations, they'd first have to now those limitations to be able to design around them.
They did not however, since this was their first game using the new development kit, and the characters where designed before they'd used the kit enough to know whether or not it would allow for more complex designs.
And again - games like Resident Evil 1, with more complex and realistic designs using the exact same philosophy of using 3D characters on pre-rendered back-grounds came out a year before FF7.
I thought they used the chibi field models to save on space on the game discs (sort of how in Kingdom Hearts 3D they used the Sora model from the first KH game when fighting and during gameplay, but beefed him up to his KH2 look during the cutscenes).
Looking apart from the fact that the field models have been described (I think by Sakaguchi) as being chosen for their stylistic similarities to the SNES era FF games, and the fact that Chibi character concept art (such as of Bigs) art exists, there is this -
The data size difference between the FF7 battle models and field models is negligible, and the fact is that if they had wanted full-sized models in the game from the get-go, they could have gone that route without much problems what so ever.
But, just to really drive the point home - look at all of this -
Now, look at this -
So you see, the original FF7 looks exactly like it was intended to look like - what it was envisioned to look like, and what it evolved to look like through the creative process of its making with a team of people working with a larger budget and a more extensive and advanced development kit than any other console game (perhaps even PC) game for the times.
It uses 3D for the FMVs and the pre-rendered backgrounds to allow for high-quality imagery and advanced cinematography, but retains the classical 90's anime look because that's what they wanted to go for.
It's also worth noticing that the 3D tech-demo for FF6 released prior to transition to Sony, also featured Chibi Character renditions, which should further tune you in to the fact that Squaresoft were definitely working with that kind of set-up as an integral part of their stylistic design approach.
Notice that realistically proportioned characters came into play in FF8 once Sakaguchi for the first
time took a more hands-off approach to the creation of a FF game, and then once he came back in force for FF9 disproportionate characters came back again, despite FF8 having proven that such
characters were not necessary from a technical perspective.
You make a lot of good points hian, I just still don't look at the entire og and think it's supposed to look like an anime.
Which means I think the realistic style suits them well.
That's an entirely different argument altogether. You are perfectly entitled to that opinion, and on the matter of that there really isn't no opinion worth more than the other.
My point though - is that whether you prefer the one style over the other - there is a clear and distinct stylistic and visionary difference between the original game and everything else in the compilation - and intentionally so.
Furthermore, it's a change that happened only after Sakaguchi lost his final creative authority over the FF franchise, especially of 7.
And, the new style is inconsistent with the original.
It might very well be the kind of style you prefer FF7's stories to be told in - but it's de facto, not the style the original story was told in - and that's not because they couldn't tell it in any other way,
and they just happened to land on that then fix it in later projects.
No, it has to do with the fact that people, the times, and the industry change, and FF7 was brought back into an environment that has very little in common with the environment in which the game was first conceived.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing - I am saying that it's different, and that needs to be acknowledged.
Personally, I think it's more logical to think of FF7 OG as a completely different beast, and entity, entirely from the rest of the compilation. In fact, I think the term "compilation" is misleading in the extreme when talking about FF7, because this is a game-series overseen and guided by share-holders and business executives that passes hands like a car in a factory - it's not like a book-series written by one author with full creative authority over his or her work.
FF7's world was never envision or perceived as it was presented Advent Children. That's just a fact. AC is a revision of the entire franchise done by people no longer working under the direction of Sakaguchi, shaped by several years and years of new projects and industry developments.
Yeah, sure, had FF7 never been made, and then envisioned today, it would probably look more like Advent Children - but then again, had the Mona Lisa never been painted, and envision today, it wouldn't look like Mona Lisa either - it's a moot point to make.
FF7 is a product of its time - and it's a product that was made with direction and intent. SE threw that direction and intent under the bus completely when they made AC, regardless of whether or not it was a good movie.
Love it or hate it - they started over. But please, let's stop pretending it's an actual logical transition from A to B, that embraces and respects the source material and the original vision.
It really isn't, nor is anything else in the compilation.
I was just really impressed that someone out there (Nintendo) still remember and appreciate the style of the original, and chose to go with that for their HD rendition of Cloud, rather than trying to morph him into this semi-realistic looking thing.
I think that probably has a lot to do with it. Almost every single person I've ever talked to who got into FF7 through AC have a completely different conception and idea of pretty much everything to do with FF7.
Since watching AC, I've done a lot of research and played every other installment of the compilation I could, learning a lot about the series as a whole. I do have some different viewpoints on the compilation than many who got to play the original game when it came out, since I saw the movie first; it's like how someone will have a different view on the original Star Trek tv series if they've watched the recent 'reboot/remake' movies with the same characters first.
But, just to really drive the point home - look at all of this -
Now, look at this -
So you see, the original FF7 looks exactly like it was intended to look like - what it was envisioned to look like, and what it evolved to look like through the creative process of its making with a team of people working with a larger budget and a more extensive and advanced development kit than any other console game (perhaps even PC) game for the times.
You've collected a ton of artwork there. I love the more proportioned manga looks to the characters.
I knew the chibi art existed, I suppose my thinking behind the manga concept art was that it was a Japanese game, and manga is such a huge part of their culture that why wouldn't they draw the art to look that way? I used to draw manga growing up; every character I drew was in that style for years, so I assumed in a way that's what this art was for.
I didn't think of it being intentional to affect the look of the entire game.
It's also hard for me to associate anime with something 3D; when I think of anime, Bleach or Fullmetal Alchemist, ect, comes to mind, not something with 3D character models and backgrounds.
That's an entirely different argument altogether. You are perfectly entitled to that opinion, and on the matter of that there really isn't no opinion worth more than the other.
Well, I was basing a lot of what I was saying on personal opinion--that's why a lot of times I said it as "I didn't think it looked that way to me".
You've definitely proved that the creators of FFVII wanted to show an anime-esque style to the game.
My point though - is that whether you prefer the one style over the other - there is a clear and distinct stylistic and visionary difference between the original game and everything else in the compilation - and intentionally so.
There certainly is. It goes from the blocky original game with anime-esque characters to a full-blown realistic movie made from CG graphics. Quite a drastic change! And no wonder some of the fans from the original game, having played it first, think the designs look stupid or terrible. I can fully admit that for all the realism of AC, there's a few things that still don't mesh with it, such as some character designs like Sephiroth's bangs.
I'm not going to into how I feel about that, but suffice it to say, I think there is something to be said about interpreting FF7 in light of something that was made nearly a decade later without the creative producer of the original involved.
No, it has to do with the fact that people, the times, and the industry change, and FF7 was brought back into an environment that has very little in common with the environment in which the game was first conceived.
I know Sakaguchi didn't work on Advent Children or any of the games in the compilation, but everyone else that's well-known (Nomura, Kitase, Nojima, Naora, that I know of) who worked on VII, also worked on AC. That's the art directors and character designers, and the director of the og, and the scenario writer of the og. Advent Children might not have the same anime-esque appeal because of it's super realistic graphics, but it's made by almost the same people who made the OG.
I'm guessing you're probably talking about the visuals of the og compared to AC, but except for the producer of the og not being there, the rest of the main team created AC.
Now the industry for games always seems to be changing; making things realistic is what gets the most attention right now, so there's a marketing choice in that aspect, I would think. That coincides with the times too.
What would be interesting to see though, is would the creators of AC have made the movie look more anime-esque like the original game if the industry had nothing to do with it? Or when the idea was first thought of, did they already intend to make the movie realistic, pout of their own personal wish or intent? I don't know if they've ever said anything on that fact.
Personally, I think it's more logical to think of FF7 OG as a completely different beast, and entity, entirely from the rest of the compilation. In fact, I think the term "compilation" is misleading in the extreme when talking about FF7, because this is a game-series overseen and guided by share-holders and business executives that passes hands like a car in a factory - it's not like a book-series written by one author with full creative authority over his or her work.
It's not entirely constantly passed around to different people either, as I mentioned above. Most of the main team from the original have continued to be involved in the compilation since. Kitase is still the director, Nomura is still the art designer and also helped direct now, and Nojima has written the scenarios for each installment except for DoC (which out of the compilation is the game with the biggest difference from everything. It feels different from the rest of the games), meaning that actually the 'author' of the series is still creating most of the series (Nomura helped write some aspects of VII as well, so maybe 'authors' is more appropiate?)
FF7's world was never envision or perceived as it was presented Advent Children. That's just a fact. AC is a revision of the entire franchise done by people no longer working under the direction of Sakaguchi, shaped by several years and years of new projects and industry developments.
FF7 is a product of its time - and it's a product that was made with direction and intent. SE threw that direction and intent under the bus completely when they made AC, regardless of whether or not it was a good movie.
I'm guessing you don't care for any of the compilation of VII, and feel that AC was the sequel that shouldn't have ever been made. Which is fine, because that's your opinion and like you told me, we're all entitled to our own opinions. At least I think you said that.
But like I said above, most of the main team that created the og worked on AC. The story at least is written by the same people who wrote VII's story. It's character designs are from the same guys who did the art for VII.
Now I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that those same creators that worked on AC enjoyed creating it and liked the outcome. Sure, creators can change. Art styles can change, writer's can change... but they're the same ones that made the og.
I realize this has changed from a conversation about the anime look of the og to contemplating the difference between the og and AC... but I think it still fits the thread. Besides, you make a lot of good observations, so I'm curious as to what your reply to this will be.
I'm guessing you don't care for any of the compilation of VII, and feel that AC was the sequel that shouldn't have ever been made. Which is fine, because that's your opinion and like you told me, we're all entitled to our own opinions. At least I think you said that.
But like I said above, most of the main team that created the og worked on AC. The story at least is written by the same people who wrote VII's story. It's character designs are from the same guys who did the art for VII.
Now I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that those same creators that worked on AC enjoyed creating it and liked the outcome. Sure, creators can change. Art styles can change, writer's can change... but they're the same ones that made the og.
I realize this has changed from a conversation about the anime look of the og to contemplating the difference between the og and AC... but I think it still fits the thread. Besides, you make a lot of good observations, so I'm curious as to what your reply to this will be.
I'm with you one this one, and plus, I like FFVII characters in their AC renders more than the original game and anime looks, because to me, it suits them better in 3D renders than 2D renders.
I'm just waiting what the characters will fully look like in the remake and hope that nothing changed much at all. I'd hate to see Cloud, Reno, Tifa and pretty much everyone else I knew since AC change a lot.
Since watching AC, I've done a lot of research and played every other installment of the compilation I could, learning a lot about the series as a whole. I do have some different viewpoints on the compilation than many who got to play the original game when it came out, since I saw the movie first; it's like how someone will have a different view on the original Star Trek tv series if they've watched the recent 'reboot/remake' movies with the same characters first.
Yeah, I wasn't implying otherwise. However, just like how many people's favorite FF game is the first one they play, I think that the first FF7 product you consume shape a lot of a person's expectations of what FF7 should be, or what suits it.
To be fair, I too prefer the proportionate mange look of the characters, and probably would prefer the original even more if it had retained a consistent look between the battles and the field, relying on the same models.
I knew the chibi art existed, I suppose my thinking behind the manga concept art was that it was a Japanese game, and manga is such a huge part of their culture that why wouldn't they draw the art to look that way? I used to draw manga growing up; every character I drew was in that style for years, so I assumed in a way that's what this art was for.
I didn't think of it being intentional to affect the look of the entire game.
This is certainly sometimes the case, but it's a poor inference to rely on in the case of the FF7 concept art for several reasons -
Chibi characters and proportional characters are both used - and many of the chibi characters are given detail as opposed to being simple skeletons for scale measurement etc.
If the chibi characters were only there for ease of drawing, or cultural reasons, you'd expect less emphasis on them in the late concept phase, and you certainly wouldn't see them retained in actual game-play.
Secondly, FF had a rich history of Amano's art-work which was decidedly non-anime. Amano is not alone among video-game artists in Japan to not favor the kind of anime style you see chosen in by Nomura for FF7 (MGS concept art is another good example of realistic non-anime art-style).
If they had wanted a more down-to-earth realistic look, it's perfectly reasonable to expect that to have been expressed in concept art, especially on the early concept stages, because at that time they certainly wouldn't have known if system limitations would demand a simpler design, if as you first argued, that was the case.
When you have about a decade of non-anime character art, and traditional fantasy in in FF, only to go "modern-punk" full-anime during the beginning of Japan's great anime boom, I really don't see how that can be seen as accidental or non-intentional.
It's also hard for me to associate anime with something 3D; when I think of anime, Bleach or Fullmetal Alchemist, ect, comes to mind, not something with 3D character models and backgrounds.
This is reasonable way of thinking I guess - but I think it misses the point that what I'm describing here is an aesthetic, a style of design, not whether it's actual drawn or not.
Japan has since also made several completely 3D anime, like Knights of Sidonia.
I know Sakaguchi didn't work on Advent Children or any of the games in the compilation, but everyone else that's well-known (Nomura, Kitase, Nojima, Naora, that I know of) who worked on VII, also worked on AC. That's the art directors and character designers, and the director of the og, and the scenario writer of the og. Advent Children might not have the same anime-esque appeal because of it's super realistic graphics, but it's made by almost the same people who made the OG.
Here's the thing though - A lot of (if not most - or even close to all) video-games, especially FF in that era, were not made like you might have the impression of here by simply judging the roles of the people on their titles in the credits.
A writer in the context of many video games, is not like an author of a book, where the writer has full creative control over how everything plays out.
Instead, they are like temp-writes in TV shows that are called in to write specific things under the direction of the creative producer/producer. The same thing goes for directors and designers etc.
They all answer to the producer and work under the guidelines/wishes/parameters set by him or her.
This is even more true by Japanese company standards with their extremely strict power hierarchies.
There really is a huge difference between Nojima writing off of Sakaguchi's concepts, and having to report back to him continuously for feed-back and consideration before the good-to-go for implementation is given, and Nojima writing for some else, or simply with the power to decide himself what to write or where it is to go without constraints.
The same is true for Nomura and his designs, and everyone else on the team.
Nothing these people did for FF7 happened without Sakaguchi's concepts, or without passing Sakaguchi's censor, making the game decidedly Sakaguchi's production.
That's why AC, despite being made by the same people looks completely different, feels completely different, tells a story that is completely different in style and substance - because now the people who earlier had to pass Sakaguchi's censor, now had free reins to do their own thing.
I'm guessing you're probably talking about the visuals of the og compared to AC, but except for the producer of the og not being there, the rest of the main team created AC.
Now the industry for games always seems to be changing; making things realistic is what gets the most attention right now, so there's a marketing choice in that aspect, I would think. That coincides with the times too.
I think the largest contributor to FF7 AC's change was movie successes like The Matrix. Matrix changes the face of pretty much everything, both in games and movies, and people got so caught up by the trilogy that the action/fantasy medium took ages to even partially recover from copying its direction, distinct visual style, choreography etc.
What would be interesting to see though, is would the creators of AC have made the movie look more anime-esque like the original game if the industry had nothing to do with it? Or when the idea was first thought of, did they already intend to make the movie realistic, pout of their own personal wish or intent? I don't know if they've ever said anything on that fact.
I think they would have had if Sakaguchi had been the head of the production. Sakaguchi definitely has a preference for designs that favor artistic flair over strict realism, and that's reflected in pretty much every single game he has ever directed.
If anything I think Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase all have artistic tastes that are closer to what you see reflected in AC, CC, or other titles like FF13 and FF15.
I think the odd one out there is Sakaguchi. I just happen to prefer his style over theirs.
]It's not entirely constantly passed around to different people either, as I mentioned above. Most of the main team from the original have continued to be involved in the compilation since. Kitase is still the director, Nomura is still the art designer and also helped direct now, and Nojima has written the scenarios for each installment except for DoC (which out of the compilation is the game with the biggest difference from everything. It feels different from the rest of the games), meaning that actually the 'author' of the series is still creating most of the series (Nomura helped write some aspects of VII as well, so maybe 'authors' is more appropiate?)
It's been passed off from Sakaguchi's creative control, is what I was saying primarily, and the company structure is now completely different from what it was when it was Squaresoft, meaning that FF7 has been passed around in the sense that it is no longer the passion products of a smaller company, but a cog in the much larger SE, and as such, subject to the scrutiny and whims of a completely different set of people above and beyond Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase.
They initially answered only to Sakaguchi who had largely creative freedom to make what he wanted.
Now, every FF product belongs to SE which is a much larger company, with many many more company heads and share-holder to answer to.
Many of the same people might be making it, but they are working under completely different circumstances, where the final authority over what gets made and what is acceptable changes routinely.
Then you'd be guessing wrong. I've seen AC well over two dozen times or so, and loved every minute of CC.
I love them for what they are though, and I never considered them as an extension of FF7. To me they're "official fan-fiction" - or a better way of saying it I guess - is that I approached them like a new season of Fargo or True Detective, or other FF games for that matter - like stories set in alternative universes.
As for whether or not AC should have been made - that's a difficult question for me to answer, because it depends on what you mean by it.
For one, AC has provided many people an entry into the series, and given people countless hours of solid entertainment. That's worth a lot in my opinion.
However, I still consider it redundant.
"Nobody" (well some probably did) asked for something like AC to be made. The film itself didn't actually address anything of value, or provide anything of substance to narrative, and instead it triggered a bad trend of, relative to FF7, bad spin-off products and fan-exploitative business strategies.
If there is a choice between AC, and no compilation (remake included), then I'd say I'd want AC.
If however it was a choice between AC being made, and say, FF7R having been released on PS2 with Sakaguchi still in creative control, then I'd pick the latter.
Which is fine, because that's your opinion and like you told me, we're all entitled to our own opinions. At least I think you said that.
But like I said above, most of the main team that created the og worked on AC. The story at least is written by the same people who wrote VII's story. It's character designs are from the same guys who did the art for VII.
Story being written and designs being made in the context of games, as I said are different from how you use the terms here.
Nojima did not write FF7 from scratch - he was given concepts, directions and plot-outline to work from, while being under direct supervision - and that was all provided by Sakaguchi.
The same is true for Nomura.
Now I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that those same creators that worked on AC enjoyed creating it and liked the outcome. Sure, creators can change. Art styles can change, writer's can change... but they're the same ones that made the og.
Again, "making" in the way you use the term here, and "making" in the way it actually applies to most game development processes and certainly to FF7, are completely different.
These people made FF7 in the same way a chef makes food - he follows a recipe and the instructions of the head-chef. He does not invent the entire dish, nor does the dish necessarily reflect that person's personal taste.
If anything, looking at Nomura's later designs, Nojima's later writing, etc. I think it's patently obvious that these people didn't change - they're just doing what they've always being doing/wanted to do - but that's not what Sakaguchi would have wanted to do, nor allowed for in one of his productions.
I'm with you one this one, and plus, I like FFVII characters in their AC renders more than the original game and anime looks, because to me, it suits them better in 3D renders than 2D renders.
I'm just waiting what the characters will fully look like in the remake and hope that nothing changed much at all. I'd hate to see Cloud, Reno, Tifa and pretty much everyone else I knew since AC change a lot.
Like the above poster said - Saying what you did, I hope you can appreciate how fans of the original feels about AC completely changing the core aesthetic of the game for the movie, and then letting the new style dominate almost every spin-off product ever since.
To us, Smash Brothers Cloud is truly a breath of fresh air.
Like the above poster said - Saying what you did, I hope you can appreciate how fans of the original feels about AC completely changing the core aesthetic of the game for the movie, and then letting the new style dominate almost every spin-off product ever since.
To us, Smash Brothers Cloud is truly a breath of fresh air.
Maybe. Me, I've been waiting more on the sequel set after Dirge of Cerberus secret ending rather than the remake of the original game, and also been waiting for the remake of Before Crisis too.
If Nintendo and Square Enix were partnered up, like they just did slightly by making Cloud a DLC for Smash Bros, I'd rather have them make a Final Fantasy and Pokemon crossover, similiar to Final Fantasy and Disney pairing up in a crossover and created Kingdom Hearts.
And FF7 was rendered in 2D. Watch Last Order and Episode of Denzel. Both those short movies are rendered in 2D animation.
Neither of those are FF7. They are Last Order and Episode of Denzel.
FF7 is FF7. I get what you mean now, but the structure of your original sentence was kinda messy.
That being said - I think Last Order is the compilation piece that aesthetically speaking does the original the most justice. Too bad it retconned the defeat of Sephiroth and a couple of other things that made no sense what so ever.
Personally, I've always been more sensitive to the art style of the OG regarding the environments, rather than the characters. The way they were drawn/shaded/rendered was quite different from anime/cartoon style, I believe that a fair degree of realism was aimed at, and that's where technological limitations come in (they could only do so much with the tools they had back then). Of course, you can always find exceptions, but I think that's because many people had to pitch in given the sheer scale of the task of environment design (I'm still shocked at the thought that they made 600 environments in 3 years). The vast majority of the environments have been designed with realism in mind, IMO, and back then that's what had really impressed me - it really conveyed the idea of blending fantasy with realism.
Regarding character design: I personally believe that chibi models in the OG (and related concept arts) had been largely made because that's how FF characters used to be drawn in the 2D era. It seems to be that it's more a matter of legacy than anything else. Other than that, battle models and FMV models were distinctively made with an anime style, there's no contesting that.
If you take character art style as your reference for defining the OG art style as a whole, I appreciate that you find there is a discontinuity between the OG and the other items from the compilation.
Personally, I feel like the environments described in AC (and others) are a more "logical evolution" of those from the OG, there is much less discontinuity. In my opinion, making environments with cell shading (or similar technique) would not be in the continuity of the art style they had in the OG.
Now, obviously if the remake blends cell-shaded anime characters with ultra-realistic environments with nowadays techniques, it's going to be jarring. You desire something more in line with Super Smash bros, which to me is aligning environment art on the original character art of the OG. I view AC style as matching character design with how environments have been upgraded.
On a last note, I'm not so sure that Sakagushi's impact on FF VII art style was so massive. You seem to imply that he ended up having more influence on the results than the art directors themselves. I don't think that Yusuke Naora's part was small, either on the OG or AC.
Personally, I've always been more sensitive to the art style of the OG regarding the environments, rather than the characters. The way they were drawn/shaded/rendered was quite different from anime/cartoon style, I believe that a fair degree of realism was aimed at, and that's where technological limitations come in (they could only do so much with the tools they had back then). Of course, you can always find exceptions, but I think that's because many people had to pitch in given the sheer scale of the task of environment design (I'm still shocked at the thought that they made 600 environments in 3 years). The vast majority of the environments have been designed with realism in mind, IMO, and back then that's what had really impressed me - it really conveyed the idea of blending fantasy with realism.
I have split feelings about this - since a fair amount of the environments are purposefully designed with disproportionate and impossible features.
Add that to the fact that most Seinen anime too, is designed with environments leaning towards realism, I don't necessarily think this says much of substance about the overall vision of the art-style.
Or, to phrase it differently - realistic environments are translatable into an anime/manga style, whilst character art not so much.
So, if I were to try to peg down the art-style for a HD remake, focusing on the character art first would seem more appropriate to me.
Smash Bros illustrates this pretty well with Cloud and the Midgar stage. I don't think these two elements are jarring to any meaningful degree. I do think that the AC style however, would be jarring without making large changes to several of the original environments, and as such, to use that style as opposed to the Smash Bros style for the remake seems sub-optimal -
and that's now even going into the direction of the original - the slap-stick moments etc. that pretty much rely on the silly graphics to work (such as Nanaki in a sailor uniform etc).
Regarding character design: I personally believe that chibi models in the OG (and related concept arts) had been largely made because that's how FF characters used to be drawn in the 2D era. It seems to be that it's more a matter of legacy than anything else. Other than that, battle models and FMV models were distinctively made with an anime style, there's no contesting that.
If you take character art style as your reference for defining the OG art style as a whole, I appreciate that you find there is a discontinuity between the OG and the other items from the compilation.
Personally, I feel like the environments described in AC (and others) are a more "logical evolution" of those from the OG, there is much less discontinuity. In my opinion, making environments with cell shading (or similar technique) would not be in the continuity of the art style they had in the OG.
Well, I think you can argue both ways here.
The AC environments lacked the distinct design and color-scheme of the original IMO quite clearly.
Looking at Wallmarket for instance, I think that area would lend itself much better to a more stylistic non-realistic render all things considered.
Now, obviously if the remake blends cell-shaded anime characters with ultra-realistic environments with nowadays techniques, it's going to be jarring. You desire something more in line with Super Smash bros, which to me is aligning environment art on the original character art of the OG. I view AC style as matching character design with how environments have been upgraded..
Yeah, the Super Smash Bros rendition of FF7's art-style to me, is perfect, and pretty much I imagined a remake to look like since I first started thinking about it around the release of PS2.
I have sometimes played with the though of a highly stylized cell-shaded, sin-city-esque artsy re-telling of FF7 though, which I think would be awesome for all kinds of reasons, but I would of course never consider that to be faithful to the original.
On a last note, I'm not so sure that Sakagushi's impact on FF VII art style was so massive. You seem to imply that he ended up having more influence on the results than the art directors themselves. I don't think that Yusuke Naora's part was small, either on the OG or AC.
I don't know how you could argue that it wasn't when
A,) the entire original concept for FF7 was pitched by Sakaguchi
B.) we know that certain significant scenarios which were in the final game such as the death of Aerith, were thought up by him, suggest major creative control even without general knowledge of the industry as a basis.
C.) We know that he had primary creative control as producer, and that he took hands-on approach to development of 7 based on interviews and documentaries about the production of the game.
Also, as I tried to clarify in my last post, this really boils down to how you view game-develpment and what you know about the industry -
On my current project for instance, to save me time for scenario writing/scripting, we've outsourced the soundtrack which I would usually have composed and produced myself.
Here's the thing though - I am the one picking the tracks.
Now, it is right to say that the composer is a major part of the music - because my choices are limited to what he provides me, and what he provides me is shaped by his preferences.
However, if he provides me 3 tracks, and I prefer the first, and he prefers the third, it's still the first that's going to make the cut - because I am the final authority as producer on the project.
Furthermore, before the composer pitches his ideas, he will be provided with ghost tracks so he knows what we're looking for in each scene etc.
If you think game development of any game, much less FF7 went like this, with Sakaguchi just saying "Hey, Nojima write me a story" and "Hey, Nomura draw me a main-character", and then he took whatever they handed him, you'd be out of your mind. Seriously. Not saying you are - but you would be if that's how you imagine game development to work out - especially in Japan.
This is how it actually works (most of the time), broken down silly -
First, Sakaguchi has an idea
(sometimes shaped in meetings with other designers), and he takes that to the higher-ups of the company for approval and funding.
After the project is green-lit and the actual design process begins
this is generally how things are shaped :
Sakaguchi takes his idea and starts working on a DD (design document) with the people on his team closest to him in terms
of seniority - here, as producer, he will be the primary determiner for
the overall shape of the project.
As work begins, he will have ideas, and he will run them by his peers in the office - although it will primarily be a small team of primary designers - not the entire dev team of course.
They'll brain-storm for a while, puts words and some (probably crude) drawings to the concept, then people like Nojima/Nomura etc. sits down and starts working.
They'll provide several drafts along the process, which they run by Sakaguchi for approval and feed-back, and they rinse/repeat that process until he's satisfies with the end-result, and only then is it presented to the rest of the team for processing/implementation - and even after that it's still subject to change for quite some time.
Some times, or often, all depending on the working environment and the megalomania factor of the producer, people will bring stuff to Sakaguchi's desk on their own initiative - those things will still go through the same process though as any idea Sakaguchi would have had himself.
Everything that gets decided on is put into the DD which evolves organically throughout the development under direct oversight and creative control of the producer, and is always updated and made available to the rest of the team to guide the work-flow.
In light of that, thinking of FF7 as anyone other than Sakaguchi's brain-child is patently absurd, and I'm saying that as a person in the industry.
I don't know how you could argue that it wasn't when
A,) the entire original concept for FF7 was pitched by Sakaguchi
B.) we know that certain significant scenarios which were in the final game such as the death of Aerith, were thought up by him, suggest major creative control even without general knowledge of the industry as a basis.
C.) We know that he had primary creative control as producer, and that he took hands-on approach to development of 7 based on interviews and documentaries about the production of the game.
First, I have a quick question since you probably know the answer to this; What's the difference between a producer and a director?
And then, on to what you've mentioned here (I'm not quoting the entire thing to make this shorter lol). I agree that Sakaguchi, being the producer, for sure had a big impact on the way VII turned out and was created. However, he wasn't the man who thought of Aerith's death. Nomura was. Here's the source: http://thelifestream.net/weekly-famitsu-issue-no-1224-tetsuya-nomura-interview/
—When it was decided that you would draw the illustrations, was the world and characters’s details already pinned down to a degree?
Nomura: There was a plot for the story, and I drew them based on that. But during the course of it Mr. Sakaguchi put Mr. Kitase (*3) in charge of production, and at that point in time the plot went back to square one. From there, I was also included in coming up with the original idea for the story, and began drawing while thinking up character and story details. At first Mr. Nojima (*4) was still on the “Bahamut Lagoon” team, so Kitase and myself refined the plot. —Was the Aerith’s shocking death scene also confirmed at that time?
Nomura: I suggested to Kitase about having either Aerith or Tifa die, and it was decided that we’d go in that direction.
So, Nomura came up with the idea, and he pitched it to Kitase, and it was decided they'd go in that direction. So these two were the ones who initiated Aerith's death. He doesn't mention going to Sakaguchi to pitch the idea first, interestingly enough, and if it was all entirely ran by Sakaguchi, I feel he would have. Perhaps Kitase did and it's just not mentioned.
But reading that interview, it comes across as, instead of this all being thought of by Sakaguchi, that it was more of a team effort and creation. Perhaps Sakaguchi did oversee everything and green-light everything, but not all the stuff in the game was thought of by him and just everyone else worked on it, if that's what you were implying.
I completely appreciate that you would feel the directors' influence on the game, and that the game ends up as a combination of creative processes which had gone through multiple feedback loops. That being said, for something like environment design, I wouldn't assume much micro-management: by the way given the size of the task I'm under the impression that a few details have eluded a reviewing process (example: inconsistencies between interior and exterior of the same building, like the Church). Last bit on environment design: the relative lack of color in AC is actually the result of post-processing technique (I guess it simply went through a desaturation pass), a bit like when a movie director applies color-grading to a footage. This step is done after modelling and rendering. I don't remember the details, but I would believe ACC to have made a better use of post-processing methods than AC did.
Back to the role of Sakagushi: what I'm wondering, like Flare, is about what was the extent of his influence on FF7 because he was not the director, Kitase was. Then I would think that the large role you have described would have been fulfilled by Kitase, not Sakagushi.
I completely appreciate that you would feel the directors' influence on the game, and that the game ends up as a combination of creative processes which had gone through multiple feedback loops. That being said, for something like environment design, I wouldn't assume much micro-management: by the way given the size of the task I'm under the impression that a few details have eluded a reviewing process (example: inconsistencies between interior and exterior of the same building, like the Church). Last bit on environment design: the relative lack of color in AC is actually the result of post-processing technique (I guess it simply went through a desaturation pass), a bit like when a movie director applies color-grading to a footage. This step is done after modelling and rendering.
A desaturation pass isn't the reason AVALANCHE/The Turks/bad guys no longer equip multicolored materia onto their weapons and equipment or why Yuffie and Tifa are wearing black instead of brighter clothing.
I love the more proportioned manga looks to the characters. 