Dragon Ball Super
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
I guess there is that ten-year gap after Buu and before the last episodes of DBZ to work with there.
Interslicery
.....
Interested, but waiting for an actual product before I get excited. They can fuck it up easily.
Cthulhu
Administrator
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- Yop
Wait, the protagonist and his babbies are all VA'd by the same VA'd, and it's a she? TIL
Anyway, IDK, I liked DBZ back when, but it had too much filler (Kai is better, but still) and inane ramblings and shit. Didn't particularly like the previous movie either, so if that's the direction they'll keep going (with lame slapstick and shit), then I'll pass
Ghost X
Moderator
チャラ　ヘッチャラ! (etc)
I look forward to it. Hopefully they improve on the formula. Faster plot progression definitely should happen. Less focus on fights (make them less long and more impressive when they happen
), and more focus on mundane and humorous aspects of the characters interactions.
I look forward to it. Hopefully they improve on the formula. Faster plot progression definitely should happen. Less focus on fights (make them less long and more impressive when they happen
), and more focus on mundane and humorous aspects of the characters interactions.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
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- Caius Ballad
I am super excited for this. Dragonball has always been my favorite anime/manga series, and I can't foresee a day where I wont want more of it.
That being said, I do feel slightly concerned. If this series is meant to take place in the same continuity as the new movies, then I worry that the power gap between Goku/Vegeta and the rest of the characters might be to big.
With the god power up both Goku and Vegeta are at a truly insane power level, while the rest of the characters have either remained more or less the same, like Piccolo, or have actually lost power, like Gohan. The way things stand now any villain strong enough to represent even the slightest threat to Goku and Vegeta would be capable of one-shotting anyone else.
Still, its Dragonball, so its possible something will happen to elevate the other characters to a level where they can still contribute in the big battles.
I will maintain a cautious optimism for now.
That being said, I do feel slightly concerned. If this series is meant to take place in the same continuity as the new movies, then I worry that the power gap between Goku/Vegeta and the rest of the characters might be to big.
With the god power up both Goku and Vegeta are at a truly insane power level, while the rest of the characters have either remained more or less the same, like Piccolo, or have actually lost power, like Gohan. The way things stand now any villain strong enough to represent even the slightest threat to Goku and Vegeta would be capable of one-shotting anyone else.
Still, its Dragonball, so its possible something will happen to elevate the other characters to a level where they can still contribute in the big battles.
I will maintain a cautious optimism for now.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
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- X
It brought this article to mind: http://animation.io9.com/shonen-animes-strongest-characters-are-its-biggest-weak-1567356201
X
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Roger
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- Minato
It brought this article to mind: http://animation.io9.com/shonen-animes-strongest-characters-are-its-biggest-weak-1567356201
X
The article certainly has a point but I heavily disagree with them presenting Bleach as the supposedly worst one. Ichigo gets depowered all the time depending on what his Hollow and Zanpaktou is feeling like or how confident he is. I WISH Naruto and Goku kept things as close as he does.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
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- X
I have to totally and vehemently disagree.
I followed both Bleach & Naruto from just about as soon as they started, and Naruto's power curve along with the surrounding cast and the power curves of the story itself have generally flowed smoothly from low to incredibly high power. The level of power isn't the issue (see Asura's Wrath for another excellent example of how to do this correctly), but it's the introduction of new powers and threats and people around the main character keeping up or being totally useless.
Bleach is an unmitigated disaster with the introduction of new, powerful enemies and having TERRIBLE power curves for its pacing for all the reasons stated in the article.
the Quincy army and Yhwach have staggeringly ridiculous godlike power -- ostensibly just because they were introduced later on in the series, just because with anything less powerful isn't a threat anymore. If the same task force of his had been introduced earlier in the series, they'd have been a more believable set of enemies with less insane powers -- which would match how the Quincies had been shown to be like in every incarnation before now.
I could tl;dr about that, but that'd be better suited for the actual Bleach thread.
X
Roger
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- Minato
I have to totally and vehemently disagree.
I followed both Bleach & Naruto from just about as soon as they started, and Naruto's power curve along with the surrounding cast and the power curves of the story itself have generally flowed smoothly from low to incredibly high power. The level of power isn't the issue (see Asura's Wrath for another excellent example of how to do this correctly), but it's the introduction of new powers and threats and people around the main character keeping up or being totally useless.
Bleach is an unmitigated disaster with the introduction of new, powerful enemies and having TERRIBLE power curves for its pacing for all the reasons stated in the article.the Quincy army and Yhwach have staggeringly ridiculous godlike power -- ostensibly just because they were introduced later on in the series, just because with anything less powerful isn't a threat anymore. If the same task force of his had been introduced earlier in the series, they'd have been a more believable set of enemies with less insane powers -- which would match how the Quincies had been shown to be like in every incarnation before now.
I could tl;dr about that, but that'd be better suited for the actual Bleach thread.
X
Yeah everyone has insane powers in Bleach. In Naruto, the main character was so powerful it was outright stated the whole village had no place on the battlefield with him anymore when he unlocked Sage Techniques. Then he got even more powered up and every Shadow clone on it's own is Kage level fighter, capable of Kyuubi Mode and Sage Mode and more shadow clones. And he can and has dispatch thousands of shadow clones like that. In no way does Ichigo make his supporting cast that logically useless.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
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- X
The main character attaining - and even sustaining - an insanely high level of power isn't what's in question here, because it's the staple of Shonen Manga. Your main character(s) is/are going to get continually more powerful, but managing that power in sync with the story is what's important.
It's the power progression of the character moving smoothly with the progression of the story, and matching up with what's expected. Yes, Naruto grew into a point where he was dealing with huge god level threats through a progression that worked up to that level, and his rival character kept pace with that, as did the penultimate threat that they eventually faced whereas the tertiary threats were things that the other characters tackles, and even Sakura & Kakashi pitched in in the final battle against Kaguya.
This is just like Asura & Yasha in Asura's Wrath, where he starts as someone who's easily defeated, but through the course of the story gets to a point where he's punching through celestial objects being thrown at him through the vastness of space and literally fighting the being who created everything. Hell, a main character who STARTS with mind-wreckingly insanely insurmountable power is the very core of the entire manga One-Punch Man but it still manages its progression and power curve that matches the story.
The supporting cast doesn't have to match the main character in terms of their power, because they have other capabilities that make them important, and ways that they can use that power that the main character (typically) can't. One-Punch Man is the shining example of this.
Go back to the article and check the "Balancing Act" section, because that is the most important part, and the part that Bleach absolutely shatteringly fails at, and what makes it so continually frustrating to read and what earns it the position of being the worst offender in the article.
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Roger
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- Minato
The main character attaining - and even sustaining - an insanely high level of power isn't what's in question here, because it's the staple of Shonen Manga. Your main character(s) is/are going to get continually more powerful, but managing that power in sync with the story is what's important.
It's the power progression of the character moving smoothly with the progression of the story, and matching up with what's expected. Yes, Naruto grew into a point where he was dealing with huge god level threats through a progression that worked up to that level, and his rival character kept pace with that, as did the penultimate threat that they eventually faced whereas the tertiary threats were things that the other characters tackles, and even Sakura & Kakashi pitched in in the final battle against Kaguya.
This is just like Asura & Yasha in Asura's Wrath, where he starts as someone who's easily defeated, but through the course of the story gets to a point where he's punching through celestial objects being thrown at him through the vastness of space and literally fighting the being who created everything. Hell, a main character who STARTS with mind-wreckingly insanely insurmountable power is the very core of the entire manga One-Punch Man but it still manages its progression and power curve that matches the story.
The supporting cast doesn't have to match the main character in terms of their power, because they have other capabilities that make them important, and ways that they can use that power that the main character (typically) can't. One-Punch Man is the shining example of this.
Go back to the article and check the "Balancing Act" section, because that is the most important part, and the part that Bleach absolutely shatteringly fails at, and what makes it so continually frustrating to read and what earns it the position of being the worst offender in the article.
X
Ichigo still needs Urahara and the Shinigami for all kinds of things. More importantly, the setting helps keep him away at times. The Shinigami at times want to be the ones to protect the Soul Society, other characters refuse to get involved with the Hollows, Ichigo should concern himself wit the world of the living ect ect. Naruto does not have this. Everyone's a ninja and Naruto's the best at everything, and he can make enough of himself to do everyone else's job for them. At the same time. And Kakashi and Sasuke sheer BS powerups to even pretend to keep up with him are as frustrating BS as anything in Bleach.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
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- X
...Again, you're focusing on the amount of power that X character receives as being the issue -- which it's not. The growth and balance of power in conjunction with the progression of the storyline is what that article is about, and is also why Bleach is unquestionably the worst offender of managing it poorly. Go reread the "Balancing Act" section of the article that I mentioned before, because you still seem to be missing the primary point that it was making about managing the story and power progression of a Shonen Manga effectively -- i.e. what we're hoping that Dragon Ball Chou manages to pull off successfully.
If you wanna discuss the specifics of the other series' progression of power and how you feel that they were/weren't handled well -- we've got individual threads for them that I or someone else'd be more than happy to tl;dr those details out for you.
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Roger
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- Minato
While I certainly disagree that the amount of power can never the issue, irrespective of how much that is, Naruto unquestionably failed to do in progression with the storyline too.
Again, it was made clear that Sage Mode was powerful enough to make the combined strength of the entire leaf village useless. And indeed useless they actively decided to be outside of Hinata. Until the end of that arc in which everyone changed their minds and joined a war to protect and shelter the Jinchuuriki.
Sasuke meanwhile had to catch up with Naruto. He can't. He's blind and devoid of his MS powers when they face off. We can't let the story end there so Naruto says that they'd undoubtably kill each other in face at the moment. Which he is completely cool with, but he still doesn't feel like going into it now. So he let's the enemies walk.
First of all, in Bleach there weren't "all these episodes" of training. The technique of incomprehensible power was taught off screen and the article even whines about not getting to see Ichigo increase the timelimit of his mask in excruciating detail.
Which, yes, Bleach cut corners on. But increasing how long he could use his mask WAS something he was working toward. We knew he suppose to get there eventually. And I dunno what it meant by new powers in the Heuco Mundo arc beyond the mask thing. He spammed Getsuga Tensou. His Hollow regenerates and uses Cero. This is stuff we already knew.
This cannot be said of many BS powerups in Naruto. And while it pans the idea of depowering, I don't see it bring up any ideas what you SHOULD do when you have disappointedly got to that point where your single character can end a galactic empire with a shrug, which is exactly where Goku is right now. Naruto's likewise gotten to the point where he's not logically capable of having in universe competition. And Bleach likewise was at there at the time too before they tried to work it out.
There is only way from there and that's down. You can either provide a reason (Gohan hates training and fighting though still likes too fight crime because criminals are weak was one of the poorer ones) or you're stuck with a Hokage that makes Sasuke go on endless missions for no reason and only uses one shadow clone for no reason.
Bleach has plenty of problems. Aizen and Yhwach's ridiculous power which make half their plans unneeded chief among them. But those are villains. I find it much worse when the main character is so powerful that everyone around him and everything done is pointless in the face of it. Preferably you don't get to that point. But if you have, depowering isn't a cardinal sin.
And what you said about the Quincy army applies to Androids too. Gero could've sent 16 at any time and Goku would undoubtably be dead. Instead he sent himself who is tragically weaker because reasons.
The Akatsuki are even worse. The sheer ridiculous power Deidara, Konan and God Realm command dwarf any individual Jinchuuriki and combined is probably sufficient for the purpose they want the damn Jinchuuriki for in the frst place.
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
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- X
Naruto's Sage Mode was a a focused power amplification used to counter the widely destructive power that Pain wielded (Jiraiya employed the same power & tactic). It didn't make the village obsolete and was NEVER suggested to do so. The village held off because the concentration that Naruto required meant that other people in the area meant that he'd need to avoid casualties while fighting rather than just focus on besting his opponent. You're vastly misrepresenting that bit of the story, especially because the war arc after that expands to a wide international conflict -- but like I said before, I'll discuss those sorts of specifics in that thread if you want, because I don't want to tl;dr derail this thread on specifics of other manga when we have other places to do that.
Asura's Wrath & One-Punch Man are examples of the fact that just the extremities of one's power aren't an issue:
• With Asura's Wrath, you go from fighting basic military troops and dying to building up to the ability to knock aside planets and stars to fight against the being that created the universe.
• With One-Punch Man, Saitama starts the manga with the power to be able to kill ANYTHING in a single hit.
Both manage to have a smooth progression of power that matches with their stories (although OPM is still ongoing vs. Asura's Wrath being concluded), and that is despite the fact that one involves starting with a god-level powered individual and a bunch of other impressively powered individuals far from that level, and the other one builds up to a single god-level powered individual competing alongside his rival.
That being said, the levels of power have to match what's established within the universe, and the build up and progression of that power is the balance that makes or breaks the Shonen Manga story arc.
• Naruto starts with things like Orochimaru & Gaara, building up to Akatsuki & Biju, and eventually concluding with the Sage of Six Paths & Kaguya - each representing a level of power Naruto comes to match connected to a deeper aspect of the core of the system of the Shinobi world that generated the core conflict amongst the nations that fueled the Shinobi World itself.
• Asura's Wrath starts off with the Gohma & one of Vlitra's tendrils, building up to the Seven Deities, Vlitra Core, and eventually Chakravartin itself - each presenting a deeper part of the system that's causing the pain suffered by the being of the Earth and driving Asura's rage.
• One-Punch Man starts off with various monsters from the House of Evolution, the Alien Invasion, & the Monster Association - all of which present wider scale or more destructively directed threats that mean that Saitama has to work along with the other heroes to be ultimately victorious with the smallest amount of collateral damage while attempting to find a challenge for himself and enjoy being a hero.
Even with planet-destroying Super Saiyan God-level heroes, that doesn't mean that they can't find a way to effectively use them and their supporting cast and build a strong narrative from it.
Lastly, the point about depowering your cast/main hero is a fault is because it's pretty much an admission that the powers introduced in the latest conflict have stepped beyond the scope of what the story's narrative was built to be able to handle. Ichigo & Aizen is one of the most clear examples of that peak level of power getting out of hand and beyond what the rest of the story was built to manage, so they reset the Ichigo to being powerless, and then almost immediately undo that depowering and present them with an even more powerful villain than Aizen with Yhwach. This why Aizen & Yhwach's powers still feel so out of place in the current arc especially because most of those powers are presented suddenly and explained after the fact like they were an afterthought rather than a planned event.
I hold that of the presented Shonen Manga, Bleach is the worst example of balance because both the narrative and power level of the main character suddenly peak too high, drop too low in an attempt to compensate, and then backpedal and reset back to where it was and push with some of the primary cast to an even higher level than before to attempt to put them on a level with a villain that 1ups the last one. That itself is showing that it breaks the smooth curve of progression of power that keeps it from beating out the others' more well-paced WSJ power-fueled narrative arcs.
tl;dr - This is really just all a long way of saying that there're plenty of shown effective ways to tell a new story with DBZ without superpowering everyone else, or depowering Goku & Vegeta, so I have high hopes for it.
X
Asura's Wrath & One-Punch Man are examples of the fact that just the extremities of one's power aren't an issue:
• With Asura's Wrath, you go from fighting basic military troops and dying to building up to the ability to knock aside planets and stars to fight against the being that created the universe.
• With One-Punch Man, Saitama starts the manga with the power to be able to kill ANYTHING in a single hit.
Both manage to have a smooth progression of power that matches with their stories (although OPM is still ongoing vs. Asura's Wrath being concluded), and that is despite the fact that one involves starting with a god-level powered individual and a bunch of other impressively powered individuals far from that level, and the other one builds up to a single god-level powered individual competing alongside his rival.
That being said, the levels of power have to match what's established within the universe, and the build up and progression of that power is the balance that makes or breaks the Shonen Manga story arc.
• Naruto starts with things like Orochimaru & Gaara, building up to Akatsuki & Biju, and eventually concluding with the Sage of Six Paths & Kaguya - each representing a level of power Naruto comes to match connected to a deeper aspect of the core of the system of the Shinobi world that generated the core conflict amongst the nations that fueled the Shinobi World itself.
• Asura's Wrath starts off with the Gohma & one of Vlitra's tendrils, building up to the Seven Deities, Vlitra Core, and eventually Chakravartin itself - each presenting a deeper part of the system that's causing the pain suffered by the being of the Earth and driving Asura's rage.
• One-Punch Man starts off with various monsters from the House of Evolution, the Alien Invasion, & the Monster Association - all of which present wider scale or more destructively directed threats that mean that Saitama has to work along with the other heroes to be ultimately victorious with the smallest amount of collateral damage while attempting to find a challenge for himself and enjoy being a hero.
Even with planet-destroying Super Saiyan God-level heroes, that doesn't mean that they can't find a way to effectively use them and their supporting cast and build a strong narrative from it.
Lastly, the point about depowering your cast/main hero is a fault is because it's pretty much an admission that the powers introduced in the latest conflict have stepped beyond the scope of what the story's narrative was built to be able to handle. Ichigo & Aizen is one of the most clear examples of that peak level of power getting out of hand and beyond what the rest of the story was built to manage, so they reset the Ichigo to being powerless, and then almost immediately undo that depowering and present them with an even more powerful villain than Aizen with Yhwach. This why Aizen & Yhwach's powers still feel so out of place in the current arc especially because most of those powers are presented suddenly and explained after the fact like they were an afterthought rather than a planned event.
I hold that of the presented Shonen Manga, Bleach is the worst example of balance because both the narrative and power level of the main character suddenly peak too high, drop too low in an attempt to compensate, and then backpedal and reset back to where it was and push with some of the primary cast to an even higher level than before to attempt to put them on a level with a villain that 1ups the last one. That itself is showing that it breaks the smooth curve of progression of power that keeps it from beating out the others' more well-paced WSJ power-fueled narrative arcs.
tl;dr - This is really just all a long way of saying that there're plenty of shown effective ways to tell a new story with DBZ without superpowering everyone else, or depowering Goku & Vegeta, so I have high hopes for it.
X
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
Well admittedly the War Arc certainly backed that up in the casualty counts resulting from the ninja populace forgetting they aren't capable of taking part in these kinds of battles, even if Kishi did nothing to reflect or explore the implications of these massive casualties in the aftermath.
And, they do not match up at all. The Bijuu were the nuclear deterrents, peace was made between countries upon the gifting of these and the creation of Jinchuurikis, the possession of Jinchuurikis is a big part of how the Kages viewed their rivals strength. But when push came to shove, the Jounin Senseis were presented as equal combatants to the collected Jinchuuriki, breaking the setting and the established facts of the Shinobiworld utterly for the sake of cheap fan service of popular characters.
This where Bleach and Dragonball have one up on Naruto. Vegeta, Goku and the Captains are the nuclear deterrents and heavyhitters and all that and are the popular characters too.
It did for a great part of the supporting cast in the Buu Saga. It already did for a fair share in the Android Saga. Why would things be fundamentally different in the Dragonball Z world when the power gap has become sooo much bigger?
Yes. It is. It's an admission that there is a problem. Because there IS a problem. And not addressing it at all is not better. It's the bigger "cardinal sin" as the article would put it if you ask me.
tl;dr - This is really just all a long way of saying that there're plenty of shown effective ways to tell a new story with DBZ without superpowering everyone else, or depowering Goku & Vegeta, so I have high hopes for it.
X
Well, I'm much more sceptical. Comparing Gohan and Vegeta in recent movies make me ask where Toriyama wants the others to be useful compared to big two in the first place.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
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- Caius Ballad
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
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- Caius Ballad
Seems like we might have a poster now.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
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- Caius Ballad
So there is going to be a manga version of this show releasing soon in Japan. It seems some spoilers from chapter 1 got leaked, and the folks over at kanzenshuu went ahead and translated those spoilers.
Based on the above translations it seems like Super is going to start before BoG takes place. Possibly leading into a retelling? I've heard that Toriyama had a lot of stuff he wanted to do with BoG, but it was to much to fit into one movie. So maybe he's taking this chance to tell that story the way he wanted to?
Guess we'll be finding out pretty soon.
Based on the above translations it seems like Super is going to start before BoG takes place. Possibly leading into a retelling? I've heard that Toriyama had a lot of stuff he wanted to do with BoG, but it was to much to fit into one movie. So maybe he's taking this chance to tell that story the way he wanted to?
Guess we'll be finding out pretty soon.