Elden Ring

Erotic Materia

[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Today at the local gas station, I was wearing my "New game / Continue?" FF7 shirt. The clerk clearly saw me for the nerd that I am, and proceeded to tell me he's beaten Elden Ring 5 times, on hard mode. He said something about an ice mage intelligence build? I legit don't know enough about the game to confirm or refute any part of this, but I thought it worth mentioning.
 

Prism

Pro Adventurer
AKA
pikpixelart
Aha, there is no hard mode, so that is hilarious. Well..how hard or easy the game is entirely depends on the build one creates, but the impression I get from "ice mage intelligence" isn't one of difficulty (no hate here, I love those builds) Some of the best weapons in the game are INT based and ice can do major damage because of frost buildup!

Though the fifth New Game cycle might as well be considered a hard mode, perhaps. It only goes up to seven, and I hear it does get pretty difficult, so that's actually probably what he meant by that.
Glad he felt passionate enough to tell you.
 
D

Deleted member 13557

Guest
Game is kicking. my. ass.

Legit the most trouble I’ve had with any FromSoft game. These fuckin’ boss wind-ups, man! Just do the move.
 
D

Deleted member 13557

Guest
I beat Malenia with two co-operators.

I FEEL ZERO SHAME.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I eventually managed to get through all of Dark Souls 3 (including all the DLC). Between Sister Freide and Darkeater Midir, my tenacity with FromSoft games has been whittled completely down :monster:

But also, I'm assuming that there will be some DLC for Elden Ring that you will be able to access sometime before the endgame. So I'm just waiting for that before I get a start on this :P
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X

As someone who's dropped... well over 1500 hours into this game between both the release version as well as the exclusive-to-on-disc-PS5 1.0 version of the game, it would be an understatement to say that I am QUITE looking forward to this.

Given that I am the kind of person who's been buried neck deep into Elden Ring design, I figured I'd just go off on miscellaneous interesting things that I noticed from the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer that I haven't heard mentioned yet by Vaati, Zullie, or any of the others who do that sort of thing. I sometimes forget that I have a rather exhaustively deep knowledge of details on the game and frequently am surprised that even people who spend a lot of time on the game don't necessarily pick up on the same things that I do.

So, first important thing outside of the trailer is the "Fall From Grace" summary on the official page:

The Land of Shadow. A place obscured by the Erdtree.
Where the goddess Marika first set foot.

A land purged in an unsung battle.
Set ablaze by Messmer’s flame.

It was to this land that Miquella departed.
Divesting himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage.
Of all things Golden.

And now Miquella awaits the return of his promised Lord.

Additionally, there are some more details in the Eurogamer interview, as well as a few others in Japanese which for me the only important detail is that both Mohg (who guards Miquella's coccoon through which you access the Realm of Shadow), as well as Radahn need to be defeated in order to enter the Realm of Shadow.


So, diving right in on all that in my classic tl;dr way:

From the outset, this charred Erdtree behind Messemer doesn't appear to be THE Erdtree, as it lists to one side in a way that the tree in The Lands Between doesn't. If I had to venture a guess, I'd speculate that this is located on the still unvisited gigantic landmass to the North of Miquella's Haligtree. In the starting area there are Kaiden Sellswords whose armor states, "These hulking, fearless mercenaries, said to hail from the mountaintops of the wintry north, are adept at fighting on horseback. Kaiden is the name of their home settlement." yet nowhere in the Forbidden Lands of the north is named Kaiden, and there is visible land still further north. Nothing can be seen upon it, so perhaps it's covered in a massive veil like that used by the Black Knife Assassins to prevent anything on that entire continent from being visible. I'd also expect that something about what happened here is why the Mountaintops of the Giants are the "Forbidden Land" and the Guidance of Grace when you exit Leyndell is suddenly intersected by a slightly warped and reddened version in the air, as well as why all the trees & animals in the frozen region appear as incorporeal spirits. This whole realm and the Fell God of the Fire Giants are split off from everything else.

Given that the whole of Ordina Liturgical Town is obscured within an Evergaol and one of the Black Knife Assassins wandering through there can be seen but not touched until you're within the massive Evergaol itself, it would stand to reason that the Realm of Shadow is essentially the origin of this type of magic. This would also explain why Blaidd as Ranni's Shadow is able to escape his imprisonment in the Forlorn Hound's Evergaol regardless of whether or not you choose to free him, as the Wolves are the form of the Empyrean's Shadows. This would also be why that same magic is used in order to facilitate the Night of the Black Knives, and the slaying of Godwyn the Golden that happened, "An Age ago, on a night of wintry fog" as recounted by Ranni showing the two mightiest remaining – Radahn & Malenia fighting with no victor, events which occur LONG before the opening narration when the Tarnished awakens.

Speaking of Ranni, when she first greets you, she's been entrusted by Torrent's former master to gift you (the one who Torrent chose) the Spirit Calling Bell and the Spirit Ash to summon three wolves, and it functions to summon them "with Ash unreturned to the Erdtree" and given the iconography of this tree as well as Messemer's Flame, it's likely that those who are able to return as Spirit Ashes are directly connected to the Realm of Shadow. Further emphasizing those themes are the fact that in Farum Azula at Malekith the Black Blade, there is a statue of a woman surrounded by three wolves, seated in front of AN Elden Ring – but not the same as the one used in Leyndell. The one on the game's primary logo has 3 concentric circles around the Anchor Ring, whereas the one in Farum Azula has FOUR RINGS around its anchor.

The Great Runes from the Shattering make up all the broken pieces of the 3 ring version used as the game's logo: Queen Marika's Scarseal Great Rune (Soreseal Rune) is the arc at the peak & Lord Radagon's Great Rune (Soreseal Rune) is the crosshatched pattern behind the ring (soreseal), Godrick's Anchor Ring is the centerpiece, Morgott & Mohg at the top, Rykard & Radahn at the bottom right, Malenia & the Great Rune of the Unborn at the bottom left. Given that all of the twin rings are possessed by the sibling pairs, it stands to reason that the Great Rune of the Unborn belongs to the Empyrean unable to reach maturity: Miquella, and as a larger version of the Great Rune of the Unborn with a cross in it is seen in the trailer at 0:50, this seems likely to be confirmed. Additionally, the Three Ringed version of the Golden Order is the one that is formed within Ragadon's body, as well as the one formed in the sky by the Elden Beast during its encircling attacks.


What this doesn't answer is what occurred to the missing Ring shown in the ORIGINAL form of the Elden Ring that was used in antiquity during the time of Farum Azula?


While Farum Azula has been lost since time immemorial, there are context clues in its history. The Dragon Temple from the early Dragon Cult in the capital city is still there and is overrun by Godwyn's Deathroot, making it the only area in the game that has Those Who Live In Death. All the other semi-skeletal Beastmen are merely worn down since Beast Blood contains flecks of gold prevents rot & decay, so they're just worn away until they can no longer survive, at which point they're chained up and then entombed in stone like we see all throughout Farum Azula as well as at the Beastial Sanctum in Caelid. Additionally, the body of Godwyn the Golden continues to live and grow despite his spirit being dead. This entangles with the Erdtree forming the Deathroot and this caused the bond between him Fortissax to become corrupted, "After Godwyn the Golden became the Prince of Death, the ancient dragon fought long and hard against the Death within its companion. Alas, victory was never achieved and its only reward was corruption." becoming the Lichdragon whose body is penetrated by Deathroot thorns, and which even pollute his once Golden Lightning turning it to Death Lightning.

Fortissax can only be accessed through entering Godwyn's dream through Fia, the Deathbed Companion. This then spread into the burial grounds at Farum Azula at the Dragon Temple, where Fortissax's sister Lansseax served as the priestess, and where she would eventually form her own bond to Vyke, "Lansseax was the sister of Fortissax. It is said that she took the form of a human to commune with the knights as a priestess of the ancient dragon cult." giving him unique protection of the Ancient Dragon's crimson Lightning since, "Of all the knights, Vyke the Dragonspear was the one Lansseax loved the most." who would go on to ALMOST become Elden Lord, making him the key figure shown on the cover of the game, as his Fingerprint Set details, "No other Tarnished was closer to the throne of the Elden Lord than Vyke. But without announcement, Vyke traveled far below the capital, and was scorched by the flame of frenzy. Did he make his choice for his maiden, or did some other force lure him with suggestion?"

Both Madness of the Frenzied Flame & Deathblight are Status effects that exclusively ONLY affected Tarnished, indicating that they have some core connection to the deeper history of those banished from the Guidance of Grace like the player character. Even if you have a Sacrificial Twig, it remains untouched by Deathblight – and you still lose your Runes as it only affects Tarnished. Not only that, but once you are possessed by the Frenzied Flame, after retrieving Miquella's Needle from Malenia, it can ONLY be used within the center of the storm in Farum Azula where the Dragonlord Placidusax resides outside of space & time. Placidusax was Elden Lord in the Time before the Erdtree – which connects directly to Shadow of the Erdtree as this was the realm where Marika FIRST set foot.

For even more context on Placidusax, he's not even truly a dragon as he's even older than that (the game's weapons that are effective against dragons do not do any extra damage against him). Additionally, his attack Placidusax's Ruin doesn't require the power of blood in Arcane to wield as it is a Faith-only Incantation, differentiating it from the heart-consuming physical powers of all other Dragon Communion incantations. Even the trailer at 2:05 shows this form of Arcane incantation summoning a red-haired Bear with omen horns (and the Rune Bears used to drop Dragon Hearts when killed to explain their supernatural power and slitted eyes). The game's visual iconography of Red as Arcane & Gold as Faith permeate throughout the Great Runes, the hair of Radagon & Marika and their children, and even the dung found in game as it is either stagnating on a throne that rejects him like Morgott Golden, "Gold-tinged excrement is a highly stable substance; it doesn't dry out, nor does it lose its customary warmth or scent. For better or for worse, it remains as it is." or Blood-Tainted like his brother Mohg who embraces his accursed Omen blood, "The bloody excrement of a carnivorous beast. ... Found in the land of the new dynasty. Mixed inside with half-digested flesh are dense colonies of tiny eggs of unknown but assuredly revolting origin."

Those two core draconic elements are notable as the Elden Beast is JUST golden, and the ancient husk of Placidusax is as well. The Rune of Death held by Malekith is a deep crimson, as is ALL of the iconography of Messemer the Impaler's Flame and his crimson serpent with two heads and no tail, as well as and draconic wings sprouting out of its body. But every half has its companion, and Messemer's single working eye makes that clear, just as much as the crimson Destined Death held in the Black Knife used by the Assassins who slew Godwyn, there is the Blade of Gold in the Blade of Calling wielded by Melina, both of which utilize the identical attack animations and form, and Melina has only one open eye – a trait also shared by Ranni as both of them were divested of their flesh. This is something that we know is also true of Miquella whose husk sits empty of blood as well as being divested of Strength, Lineage, and ALL THINGS GOLDEN.

Beyond just this, should the Tarnished abandon Melina for the Frenzied Flame, Melina recovers Torrent's whistle from the ashes, and upon vowing to hunt you down and deliver you to Destined Death, she opens her left eye, and it is a pale violet – the same color as the stone eye with clawmarks that Malekith grants you to locate Deathroot, which has largely been attributed as evidence that Melina was once an Empyrean known as the Gloam-Eyed Queen, though if Messemer is her Brother, it would make sense why she is a key element to this story as well as the Empyreans are explicitly the offspring of a SINGLE Demigod. Rykard & Radahn are the offspring of Rennala & Radagon and thus are Demigod step-children and not Empyreans. Morgott & Mohg are Omen Children and thus not accepted under the current Golden Order, Malenia & Miquella are the children of the singular Marika/Radagon and are Empyreans, but Ranni is as well and we don't know of her lineage explicitly but she is also an Empyrean unlike her brothers.

What is NOW likely is that Messemer & Melina are once again, twins who were cut off and hidden away by Marika. In the trailer, the pregnant woman in the portrait at 1:03 who looks like a Deathbed Companion, and the man beside her who is later shown impaled at 2:21 with a solid rune-like mass piercing his body similar to the suspension of Queen Marika on the Rune Arc and the insides of Lord Radagon in the final battle. The base game has several details that make it clear that these two were a part of the core design:

On the Weeping Peninsula at the Church of Pilgrimage Melina shares Queen Marika's words: "Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey." while outside there is a spirit who says, "The Mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child." and in that region to the east is a location called the Impaler's Catacombs. Messemer the Impaler is his full title, and the Evergaol on that southernmost continent is the Weeping Evergaol which contains the Anceint Hero of Zamor – a being of ice and a mortal enemy of the Fire Giants interred far from their lands, and using the dancing fighting style seen throughout the trailer. Messemer's connection to Marika also holds through in a different way.

What's noteworthy is the iconography of the Mending Runes that can be used to restore Queen Marika:

• First is Goldmask's Rune of Perfect Order utilizes the Triple Halo Rings of Light iconography of Miquella's Unalloyed Gold of the Haligtree, this represents Miquella & Malenia the children of the Haligtree. It is examining and accepting the inherent contradictions of the beliefs.
• Second is the Loathsome Dung-Eater's Mending Rune of the Fell Curse, spreading Omen Horns to everyone so that none may ever be seen as unworthy, representing Morgott & Mohg and a world where they cannot ever be persecuted because all are cursed forever.
• Third is Fia's Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, which she gives birth to by laying with Godwyn's corpse – but only AFTER she has been able to recover one half of the Cursemark of Death from D who found it in Summonwater Village where you first meet him, and the other half of the Cursemark of Death you acquire from Ranni's corpse in the Divine Tower. Both halves were split from one another and they represent Destined Death, capable of killing the gods and even the Erdtree itself with their flames – just like the Black Knife & the Blade of Calling, they would be Messemer & Melina.

Those remaining details explain why Messemer sits on a throne in front of a statue of Marika holding only a single child. This would have been during an age, perhaps before she met Horah Loux who became Lord Godfrey, First Elden Lord of the Erdtree at a time when the Golden Order accepted the Omens. The trailer is full of Leonine iconography sprouting horns like the Crucible Knights who were accepted once but then became banished as they represented something uncontrollable and chaotic. This also points to the origins of Godfrey's own Shadow, "Serosh, aged counselor who guides the golden lineage." as the beast's task was to suppress Horah Loux's bloodlust to make him a royal ruler as an Icon, "Godfrey was a ferocious warrior. When he vowed to become a lord, he took the Beast Regent Serosh upon on his back to suppress the ceaseless lust for battle that raged within." That trait was necessary when the Erdtree was but one of many gods and as the Elden Lord set describes, "The age of the Erdtree began amongst conflict, when Godfrey was lord of the battlefield. He led the War against the Giants. Faced the Storm Lord, alone. And then, there came a moment. When his last worthy enemy fell. And it was then, as the story is told, that the hue of Lord Godfrey's eyes faded." He no longer had on opponent to drive his bloodlust to balance that suppression, and so he grew disconnected – thus why Marika banished him and the Tarnished to roam until they were drawn back in order to break the Golden Order and build something new that is neither the extremes that the Golden stagnation or Crimson wanton destruction would bring about if either were given control. The same stalemate between Malenia & Radahn.

At this point I'll take a moment to poke at some locked and cut content just to cover existing information and give context to it:

Melina's lineage is a complex one as the item she holds when you summon her in the battle against Morgott is never able to be obtained by the player, but allows you to use the Miranda Flower attack and it's called Miranda's Prayer, "This statuette depicts a flower that preys on humans, posed in prayer. Uses FP to call down a deluge of light. Miranda, maiden of the Flower Crucible is said to have been the very first of this breed." This interplay on parasitism is interesting as the game shows that increasing Healing also produces vulnerability to flames. Malenia's Great Rune allows healing through stealing life from others at the cost of reducing the effectiveness of your Crimson Flask, whereas the rare Full Bloom Erdtree Guardian Garb does the opposite, "Engraved golden garb. Worn by the guardians of the Minor Erdtrees. Raises the HP recovery effects of the Flask of Crimson Tears, but greatly lowers fire damage negation. It is said that the blood-red flowers blooming on their backs mark the senescence of their ancient pact. Perhaps the guardians are part tree already." This ancient pact between the Miranda flowers & the Erdtree follows an enormous overarching theme of Parasitism (which I'll gladly delve into if anyone has interest, but which I'll just mention in passing for the moment). Suffice to say that this and game files have pointed to her being linked to Marika but also connected to the Miranda Flowers, but the concept of the Flower Crucible was never used in the game and it's not clear if it ever will be.

This is why cut or inaccessible content is important to understand design content, but it isn't useful in a lore sense. As some other examples to how different things are in the on-disc PS5 1.0 version of the game, Farum Azula is a realm known as the Storm Aerie which can only be reached by the Dragons, and the winds of the storm bring about the corrupting thorns of Deathblight that the Banished Knights & Exiles protect themselves from by wrapping their bodies in red cloth and engraving thorn iconography into their armor, but they also practice Dragon Communion as a means to reach that place. Even all of Leyndell is populated with completely different enemies as the Banished Knights are there worshipping Gransax's massive body, just like how the dragon-eyed Rune Bears used to drop Dragon Hearts when killed. The Draconic elements of the game used to be much more prominent as a throughline for the story, and there are numerous named NPCs associated with that version of the story that aren't used. Frenzied Flame used to be identical to the Crimson Eyed aggression and the afflicted Trolls would cry red Lightning rather than Frenzied Flame. Even beyond that, the Nox's armor was called "Descendant of Marika" making it explicit that she & Radagon are the same because she's a Silver Tear sharing his soul – just like D & his brother. While the Mimic's Veil, Marika's Mischief still alludes to this link in the full game, the other direct associations to her role with the previous dynasty in Nokron & Nokstella aren't there anymore, so understanding that context that doesn't exist in the release version can help understand ideas but they're not definitive and can easily be changed – just like how the Mimic questline was almost completely as it's thematically in line with the elements of that type of duality & parasitism, but that's not how they wanted to examine those concepts in the larger story that they chose to pull back on and explore in DLC.

So knowing that and moving back into the details we have in the released version of the game:

The trailer also showcases an ancient building disintegrating upwards at 1:09, while there is a LOT of architecture to address, it's worth beginning with the link to the ancient version of the Elden Ring, so it's worth looking at the details of what we know of that Farum Azula first. Just past the Beastial Sanctum in Caelid is a bridge called the Farum Greatbridge which connects to the draconic burial grounds known as Greyoll's Dragonbarrow. As the lands of Farum Azula have Ancient Dragons buried within the chunks of earth, and remaining architecture nearby, the designs indicate that, once upon a time, Farum Azula was a part of Caelid. Additionally, the Bestial Sanctum, Dragon Churches, and Farum Azula all retain Leonine iconography in their reliefs not present elsewhere. Further to this point is that in the Dragon Temple are the continually resurrecting Godskin Duo and in the depths of the Divine Tower of Caelid are home to the Godskin Apostle and the Godslayer Greatsword – weapon using the Black Flame of the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

This is the weapon wielded by Vargam the Raging Wolf who was, "...one of the first Tarnished to visit the Roundtable Hold. According to the old legends, wolves are the shadows of the Empyrean. Vargram aspired to such a state himself." which thematically explains why his Raging Wolf armor set is predominantly used for the character showcased in this trailer. However, this also connects another piece of the puzzle as he is allied with Errant Sorcerer Willhelm, who uses the Sorcerer Assassination magics of Sellia, Town of Sorcery in Caelid – but who was also teaching the Beastmen in the Hermit Village of Mt. Gelmir where Boc's mother lived how to use sorcery as his Hierodas Glintstone Crown is located there.

This is where another detail of the structure at 1:09 as well as behind the armored knight at 0:54 – the spiral columns. They're so that Serpents can ascend and descend on them like stairs, so previously these are designs specific to the Temple of Eiglay inside Mt. Gelmir as well as the worship chamber you can reach going from there into Volcano Manor, behind which is the warp directly to the Serpent-God/Praetor Rykard. That room specifically has a throne like the one Messemer sits upon and behind it is a banner that has the twin red serpents wrapping around the Erdtree. This symbolism ONLY appears in a different form on the Depraved Perfumer Robe, "The embroidery on the apron is itself a curse upon the Erdtree." making Messemer's role with the twin snakes as its source QUITE clear.

Additionally, at 1:05 in the trailer in a magma-glowing passageway, the Corinthian leafed design of the columns seen where the Jars are suspended by chains are also used within Volcano manor's architecture futher reinforcing this link. The Temple of Eiglay not only is designed in a layout with the Snakeskin head placed so that it mirrors the Dragon Temple chamber in Farum Azula where you fight the Godskin Duo, but the Godskin Noble is inside and the steps are guarded by a Blackflame Monk. This Blackflame Monk guardian at the entrance is exactly what is present before the Godskin Apostle in the depths of the Divine Tower of Caelid. This is important as, "Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." Like the primordial Erdtree they assimilated everything, which is why the Crucible Knight (once a named NPC) defects to Volcano Manor and guards Lady Tanith. These are ALL design details shared directly by Messemer.

Reinforcing this further is the fact that the Recusant Bernahl is sent to slay both Vargram & Wilhelm of them within the physical Roundtable Hold building in Leyndell. The fact that the disconnected Roundtable Hold exists just like the Evergaols in a removed space again echoes these same themes, as does the fact that Bernahl not only carries the Devourer's Scepter showing a vision of the Snake God consuming the whole world, and received the Blasphemous Claw that Ranni gave to Rykard as a last resort in case they came up against Malekith directly after her brother became consumed by the Snake-God, but he wears the Beast Champion Set which states, "The beasts, their eyes and ears covered, represent an oath: "See nothing, hear nothing, doubt nothing, and carry on, along the path set in stone." Beasts are drawn to champions, and to lords. And this armor befits a champion worthy of becoming a lord. And that is what Bernahl was. Until his maiden threw herself into the fire." showing why he is the one to meet you in Farum Azula as he alone seems to have experienced the same series of events that you did with Melina in order to reach Farum Azula, and which Vyke failed to do and succumbed to the Frenzied Flame.

From the game lore around the Godskins we know that the Rune of Death was taken from an Empyrean known as the Gloam-Eyed Queen who was also the leader of the Godskin Nobles / Apostles. Queen Marika's Shadow, the beast Malekith was the one who defeated her and sealed that power away, which Ranni later stole in cooperation with Marika's former people the Numen during the Night of the Black Knives when her body & Godwyn's soul were slain – the act that ultimately lead to the Shattering, and this pulls in to all of those details, but there are still even more, and those involve Ranni.

The structure at 1:09 has reliefs on its exterior which is architecture only used in the Grand Cloister at the Lake of Rot.

(Note that this is another area that was vastly different in 1.0 and featured rotten Ancestral Worshippers tied to the themes of Rennala's Rebirth & the Ancenstral Spirits, but in the release version feature the Pests instead worshipping the scorpion tail of the former God of Rot and lead to the resting place of Astel Naturalborn of the Void). To understand the link, it's important to go back to before you can reach this location.

During the course of the game, we learn that Ranni's mother Rennala is in a state of slumber protecting the Great Rune of the Unborn, and it is the only Great Rune that does not require one to visit a controlling Two Fingers at the peak of a Divine Tower in order to utilize. This points to a connection to a dream world and the Realm of Shadow, as do Sir Gideon's comments about Miquella still slumbering. During Ranni's questline, you have to descend into Nokron at which point, she & Rogier both simultaneously fall into a deep slumber at the same time – from which Rogier never awakens. His lasts words to you mention how you're kind & terrifying which are the same adjectives used to describe Miquella.

TO DO THIS – YOU NEED TO DEFEAT RADAHN, thus why the DLC necessitates not ONLY defeating Mohg, but him as well, as this likely intertwines into both of their storylines and requires the dream itself to take hold – thus setting the stars in motion again as a flag for that, and opening the path to the Fingerslayer Blade – the key item to Ranni's path.

The Fingerslayer Blade has the exact same physical form as the Sacred Relic Sword formed of Marika/Radagon's body, "Sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal. Thoughts on what the weapon portends are many and varied. Some consider it the mark of a great sin, or a sign of great devastation. Some think of it as the end of an age, while others; the beginning." This is a key detail on bringing about death to the gods, and allowing them to rest being core to Miquella's wishes for his brother Godwyn demonstrated not only in the Golden Epitaph, "A sword made to commemorate the death of Godwyn the Golden, first of the demigods to die. Infused with the humble prayer of a young boy; "O brother, lord brother, please die a true death." " but also in the symbolism of the Eclipse at Castle Sol – Ranni's Dark Moon in front of the sun forming a halo – Miquella's holy symbol. The spirit at in the church at Castle Sol says, "Ohh great sun! Frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!" while the one by the second half of the Haligtree medallion faces that direction saying, "Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree..."

The Eclipse Shotel inflicts Deathblight, and the Eclipse Heater Shield states, "The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber." calling back to the spirit in the Weeping Peninsula, while the Eclipse Crest Greatshield states, "The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay." All status effects but ONE in Elden Ring have a paired companion with which they share a status symbol. Poison & Rot are bubbles, Frostbite & Hemhorrage are a slashed wound, Sleep & Madness are an eye... and then there's Deathblight which is essentially a star – thus why the Eclipse holds it at bay. Additionally, this is how one would cast a shadow over a region, making it a rather clear piece of iconography.

The Legendary Spirit Ash Lhutel the Headless is acquired at the Tombsward Catacombs on the Weeping Peninsula, "Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial."
the Mausoluem Knight Armor she wears also mentions Deathbirds who only appear at night, "The wing-shaped ornaments on its back evoke the Deathbird. A self-inflicted curse that ties the spirits of these loyal knights to the land, having willingly beheaded themselves so that they may serve their masters in death." This brings us to the Ravenmount Assassins & Ghostflame.

Ravenmount Assassins have few items, and the only one of these enemies is ever seen – they're an invader attacking Yura during his questline before his dead body is later possessed by Shabriri of the Frenzied Flame. In the 1.0 version of the game the Bandit Garb was just the Altered version of the Raptor's Black Cloak., but the ability to change between them was removed in the release version. The cloak indicates that they come from Ravenmount – a location not present in the Lands Between, but in the trailer at 1:01, the figure riding through a new type of swamp (likely Deathblight) is approaching a building in front of which are a row of black birds.

The Ghostflame Torch mentions its flame's cold origins, "Metal torch that burns with cold ghostflame. Tool of the Fallen Hawks who prowl the underground rivers. When the band's last embers were used up in their long search, they began to burn the bones of their fellows, acquiring the cold ghostflame, but sealing their fate as dwellers of the underground for all eternity." burning their companions' bones, as the opening of the trailer narration mentions at 0:52 "In that forsake place, blood must spill. The blood of your fellows." showing this as similar and different from the Recusant's blasphemy at Volcano Manor.

The Deathbirds' sorceries and weapons list more on this old system, Explosive Ghostflame, "In the time when there was no Erdtree, death was burned in ghostflame. Deathbirds were the keepers of that fire." Death's Poker, "The birds are graveyard fire keepers; it is said they rake out the ashen remains of the dead from their kilns." Twinbird Kite Shield, "The twinbird is said to be the envoy of an outer god, and mother of the Deathbirds." These give us beings and systems that would have existed in this place, and the Twinbird Iconography can be seen throughout Farum Azula's architecture. Additionally, the physical details of the Realm of Shadow are detailed in Helphen's Steeple, "Greatsword patterned after the black steeple of the Helphen, the lampwood which guides the dead of the spirit world. The lamplight is similar to grace in appearance, only it is said that it can only be seen by those who met their death in battle."

This is where it's worth mentioning that in 1.0, not only were the Death Rite Birds' pokers glowing as if heated, but the Ghostflame was not what it is currently. These weapons used to be identical to the Black Flame wielded by the Monks, which is to say that they wielded the version of Destined Death that had been stripped of its power. This is why the Frostbite status was inconsistent for these weapons, but it's also why they're intelligence-scaling, whereas the enemies are extremely weak to holy. They represent a significant point of design change, which is also likely why Enia's line about the Black Flame burning the Erdtree was removed, as this sort of iconography was being teased into a greater level of nuance the same way that red-eyed Berserk Rage & yellow-eyed Frenzied Flame were eventually differentiated. This is likely why most of these elements are less fully fleshed out, but also how they're tied to themes with the Day/Night Cycle – something that I expect that the Shadow of the Erdtree will especially emphasize with both the Ravenmout & Black Knife Assassins playing a key part. On this note, there is a detail that is now FAR more apparent in the existing game design.

As the Deathbirds focus on how warriors face their death, the forms of this are seen in the Red-Feathered Branchsword, "The heart sings when one draws close to death, and a glorious end awaits those who cling so tenaciously to life." the Blue-Feathered Branchsword, "The heart sings when one draws close to death, and thus does one cling so tenaciously to life - to render up a death worth offering." as well as the Death Rite Spear wielded by the corpses held throughout in the Death Rite Bird's Body & Wings, "Ritual spear used by priests of old who were permitted to come among the Deathbirds. The priests became guardians of the birds through the rite of Death, which also serves as an oath sworn to their distant resurrection." not only depict death as glorious, but represent it as something to be embraced by warriors, like the Radahn Festival celebrates. However, these three Branchsword designs all have something in common, which is connected to why it's been placed under a veil like the one in Queen Marika's chambers:

This charred tree seen under the veil in the Realm of Shadow here is likely the Lampwood, and would also give reason to why the iconography of the Candltree was forbidden, as the Candletree Wooden Shield states, "Thought to represent a surreptitious prophecy of cardinal sin, the lit candle-tree design was forbidden." This is the reason that in Leyndell there are no open flames built into the city, and all the interior lighting are made from glowing leaves, whereas ALL of the lamps within Miquella's Haligtree have the Candletree form. This form is seen outside of the Haligtree at miscellaneous points where wandering spirits can be found in the game that stumblingly lead you to various caves and other obscure locations. This meandering gait is explained with the figure of Rosus whose stooped appearance and clawed feet can be found in statues that, when lit, will gaze at the entrance to catacombs. Likewise these dead are trying to guide you. This nature of the dead not returned to the Erdtree is detailed on Rosus' Axe, "Usher of Death, Rosus, who shows the path to the catacombs throughout the Lands Between, is depicted on this ritual axe. The dead easily lose their way, and have always been in sore need of a guiding hand." and in Tibia's Summons, "The dead have long been left to wander; what they need is leadership." Without the lampwood to guide them, with Destined Death removed, and the whole realm hidden under a veil of Shadow – the ashes of the dead are exceptionally lost since this was not the way things always were. To further emphasize this burning branched design is key here, in the trailer at 1:47 the two enemies are wielding Candletree objects and using them to breathe flame.

This brings us back to Ranni again,

She awakens from the dream once you obtain the Fingerslayer Blade. The Sellian Sorcerers who specialize in invisibility and assassination of Sorcerers followed this same lineage of giants with the skeletal Crypt Chair being secretly contained in their city. Like the Realm of Shadow and the Dark Moon that the Nox worship that Ranni represents, these are parts of a hidden legacy, and like the Ravenmount and Black Knife they are assassins, but up at the peak in a cage in a tower above Sellia, guarded by a Bloodhound Knight is Sellia's Forbidden Sorcery, Eternal Darkness, "Forbidden sorcery of Sellia, Town of Sorcery. Creates a space of darkness that draws in sorceries & incantations. Originally a lost sorcery of the Eternal City; the despair that brought about its ruin made manifest." This refers to the destruction of the Eternal City where Astel arrived and its sky was taken.

The other two sorceries that are capable of drawing in spells like this are Rennala's Full Moon & Ranni's Dark Moon. This is where there are a few other not-quite finished elements that may be expanded upon directly connected to Sellia & Radahn. The Starcallers are found gathered around fallen meteors throughout the Lands Between where there are gravitational rifts opening to let through cosmic beings. While they have a unique weapon, weapon ash, and two variant armor sets – none of these are dropped or obtainable in the base game. Below ground in Siofra they gather around the pale, juvenile shadows of Astel, whereas above they can be found in two specific locations. They are being forced to mine just outside of Leyndell, where a Juveniles Fallingstar Beast emerges from a crater. These are important because ALL OF THE DIVINE TOWERS contains countless meteors glowing gold embedded all throughout their construction. The other location where they gather on the surface is in the Weeping Peninsula, where they appear just north of "Beside The Crater-Pocked Glade" and an Alabaster Lord emerges, directly above THE IMPALER'S CATACOMBS.

The Meteorite Sorcery states, "One of the glintstone sorceries that manipulates gravitational forces. Summons a void that emits a rain of small meteorites. The sorcery originates from the Onyx Lords, who had skin of stone, and were called lords in reverential fear of their destructive power." Not only this, but Radahn learned to laster Gravity Sorceries from the Alabaster & Onyx Lords in Sellia, and in the trailer at 2:12 there is a boar-riding knight whose weapons crackle with purple gravitational lightning, but also the boar's tusks are liken unto Radahn's helm, which also celebrated both his red-haired lineage and also lion iconography of the older dynasty that many rejected. Additionally, the skeletal orb-headed orb-headed figure at 2:19 has a head much like the sorcerers whose bodies were turned to Glinstone by the Primeval Current. This bring us to the elements of the Old Dynasty which the Claymen followed and being like the Crystalians and Stonedigger Trolls that are cosmic aren't made of living matter. Like the Ancient Dragons they're more like stone.

The Claymen in particular utilize Bubble Sorceries and in 1.0, the hooded Oracle Envoys were only at Miquella's Haligtree and didn't have golden bubbles, but rather ones that were Glintstone magic blue. The Claymen served a role in this ancient version of the world as the their bubble Sorceries state, "Sorcery of the claymen who served as priests in the ancient dynasty. ... The claymen search for lost oracles within their bubbles." They, along with the Deathbirds and Ancestral Worshippers practice a form of Rebirth that where they are not brought into the Erdtree like those taken into an everlasting Kingdom of Heaven upon death. Both of these elements as well as designs like that of a malformed Deathbirth come through in Astel's designs, while his scorpion-like tail is more akin to Rot. However, even while the Gravity Sorceries of Sellia were said to have brought him, the whole of his impact isn't clear both literally and figuratively without some digging with Ranni.

This sleep that is affecting not only Rogier but also the Empyrean Ranni is especially notable as both of them as well as Rennala are powerful Sorcerers. While many of the status effects in The Lands Between are alleviated through Faith-based incantations Poison & Rot – "Flame ,Cleanse Me", Hemorrhage & Frostbite – "Beastial Constitution", and Deathblight – "Order Healing" however the only two cured by Sorcery are Sleep & Madness – "Lucidity" Even more interesting is that this Sorcery is found within the Carian Study Hall ONLY by using the Carian Inverted Statue gifted to you by Ranni AFTER retrieving the Fingerslayer Blade , "The hidden treasure of the Eternal City of Nokron; a blade said to have been born of a corpse. This blood-drenched fetish is proof of the high treason committed by the Eternal City and symbolizes its downfall. Cannot be wielded by those without a fate, but is said to be able to harm the Greater Will and its vassals." This is likely a key component to the story in Shadow of the Erdtree.

Once she awakens from that dream, Rogier also dies, but given that he was stricken with Deathblight whist examining Godwyn's corpse below Stormvale castle, whether or not he'll meet you there remains to be seen. As only the Tarnished can die to Deathblight after all, and Fia's magic specifically causes that affliction to kill D. The Inverted Statue that Ranni gives you not only allows you to pass through the inverted version of that location in order to reach the Divine Tower it is attached to – where instead of a Two Fingers, you find her deceased physical body and the second Cursemark of Death for Fia – Even more interestingly, the figure on that statue is the same individual as shown at 0:59 in the Shadow of the Erdtree Trailer. Lightly related is that the field of blue flowers with the dancer fighting are flowers that exclusively grow near areas of Glintstone Magic, just as different Golden blooms only grow near the Erdtrees or areas touched by that power. This link between Sellian's connection to the Crypt Chairs and Old Dynasty are important and also touch on the Madness of the Frenzied Flame as they relate to their Gravity Sorcery.

Astel Naturalborn of the Void's Remembrance states, "A malformed star born in the lightless void far away. Once destroyed an Eternal City and took away their sky. A falling star of ill omen." and it doesn't specify either Nokron or Nokstella – both of which have false skies of eternal night. Instead, one must look to the mining efforts in the Forbidden Lands far to the north at the Yellough Annex Ruins where Frenzied Flame afflicted Trolls, men, rats wander above. The caverns below are full of rifts with Alabaster & Onyx Lords, and in the depths of this mine is where Astel, Stars of Darkness resides. Unlike the version that washed downstream below the Lake of Rot, this version sits atop an ENORMOUS meteor frozen in the ice. The Sorcery from his defeat is Meteorite of Astel, "A manifestation of the power with which Astel leveled the Eternal City."

This version of Astel is vastly more powerful and can also execute a grab attack where multiple versions of him drop down from above, with only the real one grabbing you. Beyond just the Frenzied Flame madness all around this area, the impact location actually sits above Deeproot Depths – where the Nameless Eternal City lies in decimated ruins and it has no sky. That sky is instead in the cavern far, far below where Astel Naturalborn of the Void is. This region of Deeproot Depths is also where the source of the Frenzied Flame & Lord of Chaos in the Three Fingers is contained, and below that is Godwyn's Corpse, the source of the Deathblight and the brother stuck between life & death that Miquella prayed would be able to have a true death.

Lastly, this brings everything back to Miquella.

Miquella has long been known as the most powerful Empyrean, but he has given up everything that was once his. We know Miquella was unable to reach maturity in juxtaposition to his sister Malenia who was always rotting away. This is why he grew the Haligtree on his own blood to attempt to save her, but the cure never functioned as the tree couldn't reach maturity, nor would his path of Unalloyed Gold. Even as Mohg sought to ascend him to Godhood for the Mohgwyn Dynasty, that too would never come to pass.

This brings us to the youthful St. Trina who according to their sword, "St. Trina is an enigmatic figure. Some say she is a comely young girl, others are sure he is a boy. The only certainty is that their appearance was as sudden as their disappearance." and whose arrows state, "Priests of St. Trina use these arrows to spread their teachings. The sweet oblivion of sleep can become quite the habit." The Lily symbolizing their faith, "Dulls the senses, preventing agitation." even as Miquella's Lily begins to fade & wilt, St. Tina's Lily can be seen all around at 0:55 in the trailer. This iconography is interesting connected to sleep, but it gets ESPECIALLY critical when it is combined with FLAME.

St. Trina's Torch states, "Candlestand torch that burns with a light-purple flame. The carvings depict St. Trina, but in adult form, somewhat unnervingly." which is critically important for multiple reasons, but especially in the visuals that depict this form. Not only is Miquella not supposed to be capable of reaching maturity, but in his mature form he has only a single eye. This is true of those divested of their bodies like Ranni & Melina, and is true of Miquella now in the Realm of Shadow... which we also see in Messemer – but which appears even earlier as the cyclopean eye is the symbol of the Fell God of the Fire Giants.

The One-Eyed Shield states, "Once worshipped by the giants, this evil deity is believed to have been slain by Queen Marika." However, this belief was a part of a secret that was kept from those in the Lands Between as the Flame of the Fell God incantation states, "Arghanthy, the chief guardian of the Flame, had kept this incantation a well-kept secret until it was stolen by Adan. The fell god still lurks within the Fire Giants." This is why the Fire Giant's Second phase awakens the Fell God within its own body – it is an outer god that is NOT DEAD. This living outer god then ALSO exists within its descendants – which include Radagon's children as the Giant's Red Braid states, "Every giant is red of hair, and Radagon was said to have despised his own red locks. Perhaps that was a curse of their kind." Messemer's red hair, single slitted draconic eye, and wielding flame is more than indication that this is a power that lurks within him just as the God of Rot defeated by Malenia's Mentor came to live within her.

This brings us to Miquella's most terrifying ability, detailed in the Bewitching Branch made with his own blood, "The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection." Dolores the Sleeping Arrow is a puppet that matches his characteristics as well, "Spirit of a handsome archer who dressed in the style of a man. Called the Silent Hunter by some, she fires St. Trina's arrows from her shortbow. Dolores once belonged to the Roundtable Hold, where she was both a critic and a friend of Gideon the All-Knowing. It was because of her that he and Seluvis went their separate ways." This split Seluvis away from where he would have access to take control others as puppets by manipulating their stars with Dew – something he attempts to do with Ranni using a shard of Amber Starlight found at a statue of Miquella & Malenia, and is why the puppets at Caria Manor kill him when Ranni is able to cut herself free from the Two Fingers' strings with the Fingerslaying Blade. Sleeping or not, Miquella had a VAST influence on events that transpired.

His sister Malenia's set states clearly, "Malenia awaited Miquella at the foot of the husk. “My brother will keep his promise. He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god – he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.”" This brings us to Miquella's Golden Needle, "One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods." Miquella is capable of CONTROLLING not just men, but one of the Outer Gods, which is why Malenia is the Goddess of Rot, rather than it possessing her body like the Fell God does to the Fire Giant. This is also why it is able to prevent the Lord of Chaos from fusing itself into the Tarnished.


"Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying."


The Twinbird is an Envoy of the Outer God of the Deathbirds and it's highly likely whatever it serves is involved, and there is something that they have in common with the Fell God that Marika couldn't kill, and which concerns Miquella specifically with regard to what became of his sister. There is one way to keep the Scarlet Rot at bay, which is what Radahn's loyal Redmane troops learned in Caelid after it was plagued by Malenia's attack. Redmane Knight Armor, "When they were driven to defeat by Malenia's scarlet rot, the Redmane Knights burned the crest on the left breast of their armor to indicate their resolve. "Alas, dear home, I shan't see you again! For our duty is to remain here, a bulwark against the blight." " Redmane Fire Pot, "Even today, the survivors of Radahn's battalion employ fire to stave off the scarlet rot." As with the Miranda Flowers, the Rot caused by the Scarlet Aeonia's bloom is extremely vulnerable to FIRE.


This is where the visual design of the Adult St. Trina takes form as a cyclopean figure with long hair swirling about their face in eddies. This design is used for the beard in the One-Eyed Shield, but it is also the design of the design of the Troll's Hammer, "Mining tool of stonedigger trolls used to crack bedrock. Trolls are descended from the giants, and these were supposedly once used as ceremonial smithing tools. In the distant past, smithing was considered divine." Radagon was a smith reforging the shattered Elden Ring with that same lineage's power. Even moreso, the Wicker Giant full of corpses in the trailer at 1:11 has this exact same iconography, and uses the same corpse sacrificing Blood Magic as the Staff of the Guilty, "A heretical staff fashioned from a smoldering, withered sapling that turns the blood of sacrifices pierced by it into glintstone. Similar to hex magic." The Hex Magic is detailed across the Magma Sorceries, "After discovering the ancient hexes of Gelmir, Rykard, son of Queen Rennala, brought them back into practical use as new forms of sorcery." but Rykard didn't have the same power yet as Gelmir's Fury specifies another critical component, "One of the sorceries developed from the magma of Mt. Gelmir. Conjures a surge of magma from the earth, covering the area. Charging extends the surge of magma. This sorcery is held to represent the fury of the volcano, but the arrogance of attempting to harness it is solely that of men and serpents." There is an arrogance to Men & Serpents, and Messemer seems to be both of those things...

Thus the hex magic here is tied to the inextinguishable Giant's Flame that ultimately burns the Erdtree. It is the very power they depend upon even as they shun it. The Runes themselves reside in the eyes, and as they grow in power so does its intensity, but even the Numen Runes don't show this change despite the fact that, "The Numen are said to have come from outside the Lands Between, and are in fact of the same stock as Queen Marika herself." It is only upon the Hero's Rune [4] "There were once heroes who walked the battlefields, abundantly blessed by the Erdtree itself, who upon earning their honor simply died." and the Lord's Rune, "Runes of one who was destined to become a Lord, but when the Elden Ring was shattered, all that remained was a distant duty." where it clearly becomes an eye that can SEE.

The Elden Runes engraved into Marika & Radagon's eyes are scars, "These seals represent the lifelong duty of those chosen by the gods." but without the ability to die those scars slowly tear and bleed into open sores, "Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance." and an eternal kingdom also means eternal suffering. Destined Death cannot be erased, which is why it must be accepted and you must allow Melina to burn as kindling for you to ascend to become Elden Lord. However, consuming the Erdtree in that inextinguishable Fire is not all. This swirling symbolism of St.Trina's Adult Form mirrors the multi-vortex Cyclopean Eye of the Fell God of Flame itself – but even more telling is what befell the others of the Giant's race when they lost the war.

All of the other living giants in the Forbidden Lands are frozen solid... and IMPALED.

Miquella is divested of his, "his flesh, his strength, his lineage, of all things Golden." so in the absence of Gold... what color would his hair become given his father's lineage? The absence of Gold is also the absence of the eternal power that prevents him from aging to maturity, as Malenia's Remembrance states, "Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within." St. Trina is only mature when depicted upon a vessel of FLAME. If Messemer were a Soulless Demigod from the Weeping Peninsula who Marika obscured evidence of, would Miquella's Soul divested of its flesh then find a body fully without that Gold where he can mature and even die?

How much power would that give him, and what exactly Miquella's connection to, or influence over Messemer The Impaler be in that case remains unclear. The wandering Mausoleums with headless corpses of Soulless Demigods in them allow the duplication of the Remembrance of ANY other being. Messemer could simultaneously be the adult Miquella whose tracks you're following through the Realm of Shadow as well as Marika's former child given life again. Given Miquella's ability to shift gender, the soulless demigod of the Impaler could even have JUST been Melina before Malekith was able to cleave her from her body – thus why Miquella entrusted her with Torrent and finding you.

There are a myriad of permutations that could be taken there that all match the details we know, but suffice to say, this is likely to be an explanation of the other Great Rune from the previous Elden Ring that was removed and what became of it. Given that it survives the flames of you becoming the Lord of Chaos, that piece of the previous form of the Elden Ring could even be the Spectral Steed Whistle that Melina gives you at the start of the game, which is how Ranni identifies you to give you the Spirit-Calling Bell. There're any number of possibilities to exactly how that's been crafted into the story here involving Miquella.

But why?

Malenia harbors zero doubts that Miquella will keep his promise to her, and that no one is more powerful & terrifying than her brother is. Malenia even refers to herself, an undefeated champion and the most difficult boss in the base game, merely as the "Blade of Miquella." She is a tool that follows his will, which is true as Miquella's Golden Needle in her body is what allows her to retain some semblance of herself. The undefeated Malenia was in a dream so that she would ONLY die in battle, yet even while she dreamt of endless battleno one could defeat her except you.

Deathbirds used to collect the spirits of those who died in battle and bring them into flames. The closing line of the trailer is that, "Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death in the EMBRACE of Messemer's Flame" where that wording isn't nearly as violent as his nature. If this is a god-slaying fire that could purge her from the Goddess of Rot forever, he'd use it. Miquella's only wish for Godwyn was that he die a true death. I assume that his foray into this place is the machination which contains the mechanism by which he will keep his promise to his sister, and likely to Godwyn as well.

And to get a true sense of that power Miquella commands, It's worth remembering where the Tarnished begins at the Chapel of Anticipation with a dead Maiden & nothing but a message at her body to become Elden Lord.

You cannot die at the Chapel of Anticipation of your own accord. You must face the Grafted Scion and then you'll be able to die IN BATTLE. Should you NOT die in battle, you'll receive the Ornamental Straight Sword which states, "After falling from grace, the dregs of the golden lineage sought power and purpose in the past." Beyond the arena, there is one final item in that region that you can go to grasp and which you've seen before – a Nascent Butterfly, "An arcane butterfly with translucent wings. Exceedingly rare to find. This butterfly appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life." the symbolic representation of Miquella's spirit... and when you go to take it –

– the ground breaks below you and you fall to your death... at which point the Golden Guidance of Grace brings you back and Torrent finds and recognizes you as the person he and Melina are looking for. To put it plainly, it's almost certain that Miquella has been leading you EVERY step of the way since the start of the game. Even the Hero catacombs you emerge from in the Stranded Graveyard has the same structure as the Hero's Graves – a Headless figure carrying a tiny whithered being reaching upwards... exactly how you find Miquella's hand reaching up from his Coccoon before you defeat Mohg, where it descends to allow you into the Realm of Shadow.


I cannot WAIT to see how they depict him as the most terrifying of all the Empyreans.





(In all honesty, I could probably keep going on a myriad of other details like the new Aspects of the Crucible showing a human deformed into different draconic shapes with spines thrusting upwards, the ghostly town literally being covered in physical shrouds, the crazy leech-like snake people, the ghost worms in the promo images, the new butterfly-based Incantations, the Beast symbolism intertwined into the Chinese Dragon puppet to marry those themes together, or how the box art uses the triple snake motif found exclusively on Rykard's Taker's Cameo and at the base of the Dragonkin Halberd, or just... Yeah.)

:monster:


At any rate – needed to just get all of that out of my head, so that I can bury myself face-first into all of the excruciatingly minute details of Rebirth in a couple days, but should anyone actually wade through all that tl;dr and want more – as usual I'm an exhaustive repository of odd information that I'm happy to exchange should I have the means to do so.





X :neo:
 
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Deleted member 13557

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As someone who's dropped... well over 1500 hours into this game between both the release version as well as the exclusive-to-on-disc-PS5 1.0 version of the game
Good god, man! I don’t think I’ve ever put that many hours into anything that wasn’t mandatory.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Here I'm, with 250h on my first playthrough, still discovering new areas and bosses, yet to finish the game but having a blast all the way. Absolute masterpiece.

I'm amazed by this game's quality and volume.

Also fought Rykard some time ago, the presentation alone is off the charts. I think ER overall has the best art direction and voice acting From ever had, holy shit. I felt on the edge of my seat on what I can only best describe as fighting the apocalypse lol.

Gotta read that X's essay after beating the main story!
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Good god, man! I don’t think I’ve ever put that many hours into anything that wasn’t mandatory.

February 3rd last year is when my primary playthrough capped out at 1000 hours :awesomonster:


Elden Ring just happened to drop at a particular time that REALLY grabbed my brain especially on top of what I was working on at the time. I've been doing a bunch of related research on the design language of Japanese adaptations of Western Fantasy settings and just loved the hell out of this game, so it was kinda the best of both worlds. It's a big component of my project where it feels SLIGHTLY more mandatory as there's just a wealth of design theme and understanding tucked away that also lets me recognize sources of inspiration that help my understanding of the subject in general, and I was pointing to shared storytelling language back when it was only just announced. (All my focus on media these days is primarily focused in the context of my big FFVII Remake Project analysis of how & why themes and details evolved over the 30 years since FFVII to retain the same core message as the original story).

For some examples of that kinda thing, obviously BERSERK is a design staple, and given that Kentaro Miura passed away in 2021 the whole narrative with Blaidd really stuck with me when I played through the first time. The manga Pygmalio was a key inspiration for BERSERK, and its story near the end with Kurt's dragon companion really defines how the Dragons work in Elden Ring and touches on themes and ideas used for the Primordial Crucible, as well as shedding some light on design themes around Dragons in most of Miyazaki's Souls series (although those retain a lot of lore from the King's Field games). Fire Punch has themes that are really core to the Frenzied Flame and its iconography as well as why those were initially intertwined to the same sort of PTSD suffering Guts deals with in BERSERK but it was eventually differentiated and intertwined into Yura's storyline with a lot more connections to Japanese history with civil war & murder explored in Sekiro. More significantly, a lot of the spiritual mythology comes from the stories in the manga Mushishi, but another key element are the stories in the 1904 book Kwaidan (which I'm currently working my way through) as it's considered essentially THE first true introduction of Japanese culture into the West. The use of Butterflies & Ants in Elden Ring as well as Mosquitoes in Bloodborne are done in ways that parallel the themes in the analysis portion at the end of the book, which is how it initially caught my attention.



My channel has a few miscellaneous videos from my first & second playthough, and currently I'm at the end of Journey 3. I get a lot more out of the game just by having access to go around & freely explore things anywhere I want easily so that I can look at details & other things, so I'm less incentivized to go about playing through it a bunch of times (though after clearing Shadow of the Erdtree, I'll probably start another playthough as I expect that there're some really interesting options for what certain characters do if they're still around and you do that content BEFORE beating the final boss).

The Black Knife Armor & Beast-Repellant Torch are probably my 2 favourite items in the game because they silence your movement and keep a number of types of animal enemies from attacking you, so it's easier to go around uninhibited. That being said, I was also maxing out a bunch of builds and other things for a while as I found a lot of the builds and buff mechanics really interesting, so currently I'm level 644 (which means that my Arcane is at 28 and all my other stats are 99). Given that one of the newer interviews explains that Shadow of the Erdtree has its own difficulty progression system similar to Sekiro I'll probably just end up ACTUALLY committing to maxing out before that comes out, since that won't really matter as much

Since I have no technical skills for data-mining or any way to examine design elements aside from doing so manually that eventually compelled me to check out the 1.0 version myself. In order to play the 1.0 version you have to have a disc-reading PS5 that's always kept fully offline, so it's a task all on its own, but I just... happened to have a setup for that. I haven't checked my other playthrough on the 1.0 version recently, but as I needed to go back through & get access to everything in the game, and go through all the Catacombs and other places to see which items existed in this version, which were different, etc. it's a few hundred hours and I've played at least as much on my main save since then, which is how I know I've got over 1500 hours in the game... but won't really EVER know when it's past that or by how much. It could be WAY more, but I'd have no idea at all unless they expand the cap on the timer in an update (and if the game is keeping track of data beyond what it displays or something).

Related fun fact: If you've ever excitedly picked up a purple item only to discover that it was an Arteria Leaf – there's a reason for that.

In the 1.0 version a significant chunk of the items in chests aren't yet placed, and this is also true for items on the map. However the LOCATION of where an item of interest will be placed gets marked by having SOMETHING there... and a significant amount of the time – it's an Arteria Leaf. This makes it easy for devs to scan through the item tables and then replace that with the relevant item for that area. So, not all of those were going to get replaced in the long run as not all of those spots ended up being used or they were parts of things that got cut. Thus you'll have some "important" looking items give you an Arteria Leaf which is comically unsatisfying to the point that it became a meme.

Here I'm, with 250h on my first playthrough, still discovering new areas and bosses, yet to finish the game but having a blast all the way. Absolute masterpiece.

I'm amazed by this game's quality and volume.

Also fought Rykard some time ago, the presentation alone is off the charts. I think ER overall has the best art direction and voice acting From ever had, holy shit. I felt on the edge of my seat on what I can only best describe as fighting the apocalypse lol.

Gotta read that X's essay after beating the main story!

Yeah, every square inch of the world is just SATURATED with amazing design, and there's always something interesting to do wherever you look. Rykard's fight is phenomenal and part of his second phase ACTUALLY has a sort of apocalyptic vision when he summons the massive vortex of rancorous souls and then strikes down at you.

The Serpent-God is actually one of my favourite entities in the game. Since you beat that recently, I'll share a couple bits of lore info with you on it. At one point in the Lands Between death had been a critical part of the overall lifecycle, and the Snake-God was a critical part of that.

In Liurnia, you can meet Rya (whose story is my favourite in the game, but I'm not sure if you've done any of that, so I'll skip over her bits that connect to this). If you get her necklace back, she'll tell you that there is a secret passageway that scales cliffs up to the Altus Plateau. As you go up to the Ruin-Strew Precipice, you'll encounter 2 different types of beings gathered up there just below the final passageway: Land Octopus (both the large mothers & little children) as well as the Bats (The magic user, the singing Crones, and the normal bats). The Crones are singing a song in Latin called the "Song of Lament" and there's another by the egg-carrying Crayfish in Liurnia and one off the cliffs in the Weeping Peninsula, so you've likely heard them before. The lyrics to their lament are as follows:

Alas, that land, once blessed now has diminished.
We (betrothed) destined to be mothers now become tarnished.
We have lamented and we have shed tears...
but no one consoles us.
Golden one, at whom were you angry?


One of the things here is also a key detail in the Lady Octopus Ovary, "Land octopuses eat humans in order to bear young, and theirs is the blood that runs through these ovaries." They require humans to die in order for their lifecycle to continue and with the Rune of Death taken, both of these inhuman mothers can no longer have children. On the ground underneath the Land Octopus at the Ruin-Strew Precipice is the Serpent-God's Curved Sword, "Curved sword fashioned in the image of an ancient serpent deity and tool of a forgotten religion practiced on Mt. Gelmir. Formerly used to offer up sacrifices, this sword restores HP upon slaying an enemy." It bears the image of the Serpent-God and also recovers HP on killing an enemy as a means to convey that same theme through the gameplay mechancis.

The same is done for the weapon that you can acquire from defeating Rykard which is the Blasphemous Blade, "Sacred sword of Rykard, Lord of Blasphemy. Remains of the countless heroes he has devoured writhe upon the surface of this blade.Now they share the same blood, bound together as family. Some HP is restored upon defeating an enemy." This has the same details of sharing blood and becoming a shared family with the non-human creatures of the world as the storytelling in that place. Not only is the HP it recovers on kill more than the Serpent-God's Curved Sword, but its ability is even stronger, "Raise the sacred sword aloft to set it ablaze with blasphemous flames, then bring it down to fire off a forward blast. The flames steal HP from those they touch."

Essentially this is a juxtaposition showing that when the Golden Order sealed away Destined Death, it only redirected pain and suffering elsewhere onto others. This is why the Recusants of Volcano Manor turned against the Erdtree and have the unsavoury duty of fighting and killing noble protectors who follow the Erdtree. However, this practice easily slips into just becoming wanton murderers of the righteous, which is why the ghost of the Gelmir Knight inside Volcano Manor tells you where the spear is to kill Rykard and begs you to destroy the monster that he became when the Serpent consumed him as all it knows now is the insatiable hunger from that pain and it won't stop until it consumes everything – which would make it just as monstrous as the destruction that following the Erdtree had caused.

This flew under the radar, the expansion won't be included on disc, it will be a code voucher instead :/


I think that what might have prompted this is that it's likely big enough in size that they'd need a second disc, this runs the risk of people ONLY buying the $40 DLC being unable to play it. The alternative is that you include both of them together, but then that's a $100 game that's gonna feel overpriced and look bad from a marketing perspective. Both of those are things you don't want. The number of people buying it and being annoyed about a download code will be smaller overall.

That being said – it's SUPER annoying when it comes to long-term preservation efforts for the game, and you'd hope that the more expensive collector's edition or something would at least prompt them to make some version of it all on physical media. This also makes me INCREDIBLY curious whether it'll be the same on-disc version for PS5 as it's always been (which has the unique older 1.0 version of the game) or if it'll be updated to match all of the other launch versions of the game, OR if it'll be updated for the current build of the game.



X :neo:
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
@X-SOLDIER

SPOILERS BELOW

That's damn interesting. I've recently wrapped up Deathroot Depths and I found the story relating to Destined Death, Fia and Godwyn carcass fascinating.

Not only the Blasphemous Blade and Serpent Sword has the effect of granting HP on each kill, but also Rykard's own Great Rune (I think its per attack though). :monster:

Rya is my most beloved NPC, the most pure character in the land, when she begged me to kill her because she found out the truth, that was extremely painful to watch. From all the NPCs, I wanted a happy ending for her the most, the bond between her and the player is one based on trust and kindness, a high contrast to all the treason and interests running around with other NPCs, which made her feel like a sprinkle of light in the darkness.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So, randomly within about a day of when I was mentioning it, there's someone who I saw get RTd on Twitter who just compiled a MASSIVE list of differences between the 1.00 and release builds of Elden Ring. It doesn't include almost any of the differences in the lore descriptions, but it's an EXTREMELY thorough dive into that build of the game if anyone ends up being properly curious. (It mentioned ways to get some items I thought were unobtainable, so I'll likely end up diving back into my 1.00 save and going into an NG+ (and I'll have to go back through a big chunk of the game again to get to some of them).


@X-SOLDIER

SPOILERS BELOW

That's damn interesting. I've recently wrapped up Deathroot Depths and I found the story relating to Destined Death, Fia and Godwyn carcass fascinating.

Not only the Blasphemous Blade and Serpent Sword has the effect of granting HP on each kill, but also Rykard's own Great Rune (I think its per attack though). :monster:

Rya is my most beloved NPC, the most pure character in the land, when she begged me to kill her because she found out the truth, that was extremely painful to watch. From all the NPCs, I wanted a happy ending for her the most, the bond between her and the player is one based on trust and kindness, a high contrast to all the treason and interests running around with other NPCs, which made her feel like a sprinkle of light in the darkness.

Yeah, they put a ton of lore justification into the nuances of the game design of the items, which I've always really liked. Rykard's Great Rune does, and that's also an extension of that same thing, so good call. I forget about that one as I've never used anyone's Rune aside from Radahn's. :monster:

Rya is also my most beloved NPC. I never found her hiding away in my first playthrough, as after returning her locket, I simply entered and went off to kill Rykard as I had no interest in the manor – but in every subsequent playthrough I always make sure that I go through her questline and then visit her again after defeating Rykard, because I think that the letter she writes you when she departs if you force her to survive with a knowledge of her circumstances is one of the most heartfelt & sweet messages in the whole game.
Farewell letter written in an inexpert hand.
"I wish to set out on a journey.
So that one day, I can carry on Mother's work.
Be the proud daughter of Tanith of Volcano Manor.
Farewell.
You've always been so kind. So uncompromising.
My champion."
All the details are so striking.

It's called "Zorayas' Letter" showing that she's no longer hiding her identity. She writes you despite her clear inexperience doing so, showing that she is taking steps she knows are necessary and is operating on her own clarity of confidence rather than knowing what she's truly capable of, she knows what she WANTS to have. She wants to carry on what her mother Tanith was doing, and she leaves the pain of her birth mother Daedicar behind her. She wants to be proud of Tanith's work because she understands it, whereas before she was just doing as she was asked – as Rya, she even invites you to the manor purely on the assumption that when you returned with her stolen necklace that Blackguard took from her, it was because you'd killed him. She doesn't ask if that's actually the case, because before meeting you she'd never understood that someone would ever do anything else, but she understood a purpose in you addressing the pain of someone helpless that no one else considered and others who were hardened by the world.

Blackguard who stole it from her did it because she was an easy mark and he didn't have to even try, and he's used to just operating in a place where everyone was always using other people for whatever you could get from the. He'd been imprisoned with one of the more horrifying murderers ever, and should you follow his questline you'll see he's rapidly amicable once you crack through that exterior and offers you food that protects you against harm from boiled prawn/crab – the exact type of shell that Zorayas doesn't possess, but rather is the antithesis of. This is why her final lines, "You've always been so kind. So uncompromising. My champion." are so impactful. Kindness isn't always pleasant, and being uncompromising about that is what makes it a kindness rather than a cruelty because it's predicated upon understanding how to ensure that it is an act of kindness. The term "Champion" carries some further connotations of exceptional praise that other items later on in the game will expand upon, (Bernahl's armor set in particular carrying the threads of that theme from Volcano Manor).

I love that it's Rya's plight that makes it so that deep down Tanith recognizes her own protection is the exact same type of hierarchal control that the Erdtree represents that they're fighting against. She accepts that inherent hypocrisy as something that she's willing to accept so long as it keeps Rya safe – because she recognizes that Rya has never done anything to deserve the circumstances that she's been born into and she is undeserving of persecution coming from either side. This is why she made efforts to ensure Rya kept her identity hidden, because she knew more than ANYONE the type of people that Rya was surrounded by on their side, and was also intimately familiar with their enemy. No one would have understood that danger the way she did. Tanith's infatuation to have that familial belonging with Rykard herself became how she ended up holding everything together on her own for his cause, while slowly losing her sense of clarity once he was consumed and that purpose became twisted by its hunger until you were able to slay the Serpent-God... although if you return to his arena, you'll find how well she's coping with that.

I love how messy the circumstances that the world of the Lands Between presents are, because it forces you to recognize that the decisions being made aren't moral ones, they're contextual. There is no good or evil to them – as identical actions wind up being both – and which they are will change with the most subtle shift in the systemic pressure that exists to justify or catalyze those actions. Rya's inherent tragedy and existential crisis is that she comes to recognize is the reality that her very conception was generated from a ritual that's SO far debased that – no matter which side should come into power – both would condemn her if they knew the reality of what she truly was. Not ONLY does she have no safe haven on either side, but even the Serpent's Amnion mentions that she was an unwanted result of her mother simply seeking every wicked pleasure imaginable. It's that systemic rejection that drives Tanith to both spurn the Erdtree's rule, as well as protect Rya from any form of that in her life – prior to encountering you.

The Talisman Rya gives you at the end of her questline does nothing but doubles the amount of damage that you take, because it's representative of the burden that she lived with – where she's something that cannot be accepted by man nor by serpent, so she's exceptionally vulnerable solely because of the happenstance of her parentage (who that talisman represents). It's intentionally similar visually & in design to Shabriri's Woe, which constantly attracts the aggression of others – as Shabriri was accused of slander and then having been ostracized for his actions for so long that experience of hatred & exclusion defined him and brought him pleasure. Like Daedicar thrived on the physical pain, Shabriri thrived on the incessant earned aggression as justification for lashing out at others (which is why the Frenzied Flame incantations all increase your own vulnerability in order to amplify the damage you deal when using them, as they're inherently embracing a self-destructive feedback loop). Shabriri has no eyes, but empty sockets where the flames of Frenzy reside, and this is exactly the same as what occurs as the Great Runes in the eyes of Marika & Radagon start to decay into festering sores – increasing power at the expense of taking more damage.

In the case of Marika & Radagon, it is a necessity of the burden of lordship where what is just for the lord as a figurehead over their governed does not always protect what they love most as a person. (There's a reason that Marie Antoinette in the manga Rose of Versailles is such a pivotal expression of that inner conflict). This is the reason that it's Godwyn's murder that finally brought about The Shattering, where Marika was using her hammer to destroy the Elden Ring just as much as Radagon was using the same to attempt to repair and reforge it. It's a feedback loop that can't escape from itself, and all the different places you encounter find themselves in these sorts of vortices where there is a catalyst necessitated in order to break that cycle of stagnation continuing to amplify. Rya would never have managed to find kindness from anyone but you, and those are the core lessons that are always laid out when you're someone who's seeking the title to become Elden Lord, because you need to understand what that truly represents for yourself.

This is why these themes with Radagon/Marika, Shabriri, & Daedicar are all similar but different expressions of that type of existential suffering. While Radagon/Marika attempted to retain and stabilize the Golden Order to be eternal at any cost, Shabriri came to feed upon that pain in order to amplify any interaction into conflict as a means to spread that Frenzy. Meanwhile, Daedicar delighted in the pain as an indulgent behaviour without regard for what that meant for her children, whilst Rykard fed himself to it in order to give everyone a place together as one united family – especially given that Radagon had divorced his mother Queen Rennala to wed Marika, but as his children, they were still brought in as Demigod step-children before everything fell apart, which is when Rykard fed himself to the Great Serpent.

Rykard's flames that steal life and bring it into itself, as they all exist united together in one enormous monstrous mass that's no longer what any of the component parts once were. It feeds off of that life and offers sanctuary by consuming it. By contrast, the Frenzied Flame becomes all-consuming because it intends to communicate its pain directly into others, and rather than provide relief, it forces them to feel the full magnitude of that loathing until it turns the crying pain of that hatred into a burning destructive purpose – which is why all the Frenzied Flame incantations are screaming, crying, or embracing someone else as a means to transmit your pain and harm rather than to seek help or comfort from another. The Frenzied Flame is a fire that merely ensures to burn everyone until there is no distinguishable difference, and the whole world is ash, whereas the Great Serpent would consume the whole of the Erdtree and the very world into itself if it grew. Both are apocalyptic ends, as are the eternal undying of the Lands Between frozen in Marika & Radagon's stalemate. It's important to recognize that they're not equivalent, because not all of those deserve pity. Some expect and rely on your pity as a means to exploit that as a weakness, and while Blackguard and others may have some compassion & humanity underneath that shell... many do not.

That's why it's so wonderfully messy – because the reasons for what the Recusants are doing are truly just. However, like Bernahl says if you go to join them that you have to recognize that what you're doing isn't good but simply necessary & the only thing it will earn you is a terrible death. That's justice for killing people who didn't deserve it all because they were serving on the wrong side of a power that needed to be destroyed, and he preserves aspects of those fallen in death in his own ways even before you see him in Volcano Manor:


You're not a hero for following him, and a Champion has to be able to rise above that and ensure that it is for something more. That's a type of kindness that looks like cruelty, and he forces you to acknowledge that you understand before accepting you. This is why he plainly states, "But know that the path you walk is blasphemy, and leads only to a miserable death." Many who do that work of killing those undeserving who are their own people for too long like the Recusants will easily fall into cruelty when they become so desensitized and forget other options exist because, like Blackguard after escaping prison and getting into the Lands Between, they went for so long never knowing anything else. (There is a specific lore detail in why he doesn't wear a helmet in Limgrave but does in Volcano Manor which is detailed in his armor set and is thematically connected to this, but occurs later on). There is, however a piece of information that you get on this exact conflict very VERY early in the game.

The dagger Misericorde that you can get all the way early on in Stormveil Castle has the highest critical attack in the game and states, "Dagger favored by military physicians in white. The pointed blade is hard and sharp, making critical hits especially potent. Medicine is mercy, and mercy upon the battlefield is ruthless. Beware the killers clothed as men of compassion." as the White Masks like Varré who you first meet and who attempts to befriend you were, "Worn by war surgeons who were effectively mercy killers." When you have extensive medical knowledge, allowing someone to have a wretched and needlessly painful death when they're beyond saving is not kindness, but offering them a swift end is. However, when their daggers are employed just as often if not more to instead effectively kill their enemies it makes their perspective different. If all the foes they ever see are all dying swift & painless deaths, but their own suffer horrid wounds and anguish – it's not long until their talents of death seem to be a kindness regardless of who they are directed at. That's why it becomes a simple solution killing is saving THEM the trouble of something more difficult rather than prioritizing what the victim actually needs. Again, this is why Rya's situation and her seeing it as a kindness is SO impactful.

Kindness & cruelty are TERRIFYINGLY difficult to distinguish from one another, and outright impossible without a thorough understanding. Rya only had that path to understanding because she trusted you completely, to show her what her mother was hiding even though you saw what it was, and even though you knew what she would have to go through. Anyone else would have had their own self-protection, but Rya only has double vulnerability. She was able to gain understanding to find a path forward BECAUSE she was naïve innocence & inexperienced but she trusted you, she understood you forcing her to continue both aware and alive through an existence with no relief offered on either side was done as a kindness because you saw a path forward neither side did.


Ultimately what's being addressed is how you deal with systemic intolerance, because there's a paradox of tolerance. You cannot tolerate intolerance, otherwise it will have nothing to prevent it from growing and turning the whole of reality cruel. While that seems like a moral position, it isn't. Tolerance is a social contract where that tolerance only exists for those who show tolerance to one another. Rya accepts you & you accept her there is no room for mistrust or intolerance, so your actions towards her are not cruelty. However, if that social contract is broken, the one who breaks it is no longer protected by that social contract. Tanith asks you to erase her memory & Rya asks you to kill her – both are an extension of external intolerance dictating the decisions they are allowed to consider – which is why your outright rejection of that is a kindness.

By contrast, Rykard & the Recusants were circumstantially forced to use the power of the Erdtree power to defeat the Golden Order. The had to ignore their own transgressions in order to achieve a power to rival the Erdtree, and there is no salvation by taking that path. The most poignant monologue I can think of that encapsulates their situation is Luthen Rael's monologue from Andor which perfectly reflects Bernahl amongst all the other Recusants as he's the one who truly recognizes what's being done, and hasn't yet been consumed by the Serpent (similar to how Luthen's silhouette is that of Vader, but he's not QUITE that yet, but he's knowingly walking that knife's edge).


This is why the ghost of one of the last Gelmir Knights bids you to kill Rykard to stop him from becoming a monster just as terrible if not worse than the thing he's fighting against. It is monumentally difficult to be forced into experiencing and responding to a certain type of abuse without succumbing to it. This is why in Shabriri's case, his slander was a willful act of intolerance that got him justly ostracized – but that logical justice no longer holds sway to penetrate the sheer intensity of the raw emotional anguish once it reaches a breaking point. There's a lot of cut content that still partically-present lore about the wandering Merchants and why the other merchants are often prickly & untrusting and keep their interactions with you to just to brief & necessary interactions in conversation. They have to always be prepared to be abused, and try to remove themselves from opportunities for that to occur, whilst also interacting enough to keep themselves alive by trading which necessitates dealing with unknown individuals constantly.

This is because they were initially the ones who harbored the Frenzied Flame and it could spread rapidly from them into the Tarnished like a pandemic. Thus, like lepers they were cut off and shunned from others out of a necessary measure of safety... but just like that, this treatment rapidly became horrible & inhumane as they were seen as the threat rather than the victims of their circumstances. The pain of the Frenzied Flame linked them all, and that's why Kalé still warns you that he'll know if ANY of his brothers are attacked, because they were all interconnected by it. As the influence of the pain of persecution to any of them grew, their collective sense of individuality from one another would gradually erode to just be consumed by that singular burning hatred from the Frenzied Flame to rid themselves of the other who was keeping them divided from everyone else... which is exactly the reason that it became important to take such extreme measures to contain them at all costs.

(One of CLAMP's earliest manga is based around an adaptation of the Hindu text the Rigveda, and their manga RG Veda centers around this theme and influenced a lot of how those situations are framed thematically and in terms of fantasy, but especially when it comes to the deep complexities around the weight of rule, trust, social bonds, and impossible choices. It's a less-talked about contemporary with BERSERK that also followed & influenced a lot of the same design themes, and I expect that they'll be ESPECIALLY prominent in Shadow of the Erdtree given Miquella's frequent gender ambiguity and the fact that Ashura in RG Veda is intentionally not gender specified and has a number of other similar qualities).

A few fun facts regarding information from 1.00 / CBT release lore:

• The Daedicar's Woe talisman that Rya gives you was originally going to be a representation of Rykard's male paramous who he had along with Tanith in earlier version of the game. Despite the details being changed along with the quest, the portrait of the male Daedicar still exists in the game and it's the masked man in robes that's hanging over the fireplace in the dining hall of Volcano Manor above where Tanith sits where you get invaded by Ghiza. (Rykard only has portraits of people directly related to him: Tanish, himself, Radahn, and this figure doesn't have any items in the game which quite match that mask, and the Ruler's Robe is what they're wearing, which is how we logically pinned it down to that individual likely still just meant to represent Daedicar and hiding their flayed face).

• While most people know that General Radahn used his Gravity Magic so that he wouldn't ever have to leave his exceptionally loyal, yet extremely scrawny horse Leonard behind, 1.0 actually mentions another animal he looked after in the description of the Longtail Cat Talisman that negates fall damage, found in the Academy of Raya Lucaria: "A brooch depicting a long-tailed cat, known to be the beloved pet of General Radahn. This black cat was known to have enjoyed jumping down from great heights; it would leap from the great bell-tower of Raya Lucaria as a kitten, and once fully grown, from the great heavenward roots that twisted through the Erdtree Capital skies." While that's no longer mentioned at all in the release version of the talisman's descriptive lore, it's an indirect bit of canon that I really like because it's still representative of the same core design that was maintained with Radahn & Leonard, especially with his meteoric Phase 2 attack. This thematic element also makes it very unsurprising that Praetor Rykard had a close relationship with the Great Serpent, but in an inversion as while Radahn devoted a portion of his magic to protect them, Rykard gave up his Great Rune to be consumed by the Serpent and fall under its protection, which also follow the same initial theme about the lifecycle before the Rune of Death was sealed away.

• Lastly is a 1.00 detail that I just learned from the first linked video: As I mentioned, there is a way to get Recusant Bernahl's armor later in the game and it's got some interesting lore attached to it. However, in 1.00 it is not obtainable there. The only way to procure it is if you kill Bernahl when you first meet him in Limgrave when he's still not wearing his helmet. As I haven't done that, and thus haven't checked the lore to be certain of how this was being conceived initially, Elden Ring does something where many characters have a paired character (D: Hunter of the Dead & D: Beholder of Death, Godrick & Godefroy, Commanders Niall & O'Neil, Morgott & Mohg, Miquella & Malenia, Rykard & Radahn, etc). In Bernahl's final dialogue in Volcano Manor, he specifically mentions being the inheritor of his brother's will while swearing his oath against the Erdtree & Greater Will. I'm curious whether earlier versions of the story had the initial intent of Recusant Bernahl having had to kill his brother Knight Bernahl and taken his armor, donning the helmet to mask his identity, rather than always being presented as a single duplicitous recusant testing you openly when you initially meet.


It's gonna be one of the first things that I do once I get through my initial playthrough Rebirth (which has currently taken up just over 50 hours of my life at this point, so I figured I'd take a little breather to drop in some misc goodness on the forums here before diving back to that, as I've been almost completely offline until I get that completed).



X :neo:
 

Ghost X

Moderator
Sounds like a huge game. I watch lore videos of it, and despite the game clearly being rich in detail, right down to the design level, I guess the presentation of the videos had me feeling it was maybe a 50 hour game max, but you folks are saying 250 hours, 1000 hours? I'm considering buying it, but I think it is a bit too rage quit inducing for me, if it's a Dark Souls-like game :mon:.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
Sounds like a huge game. I watch lore videos of it, and despite the game clearly being rich in detail, right down to the design level, I guess the presentation of the videos had me feeling it was maybe a 50 hour game max, but you folks are saying 250 hours, 1000 hours? I'm considering buying it, but I think it is a bit too rage quit inducing for me, if it's a Dark Souls-like game :mon:.

I'd say you can finish it in about 40-60 hours, and 100+ if you try and find every dungeon etc. It's a big game though.

As for rage quit, I'd argue it's probably the most accessible Souls game; like Dark Souls games, you get the choice of playstyle (...warrior, thief or wizard, I suppose :monster:, but there's a bunch of things you can do and you're never locked down to one style ), the mandatory tutorial area and boss is pretty straightforward (both Dark Souls and Bloodborne had a mandatory boss early on that was a difficulty cliff / skill check), and after that you can go pretty much anywhere you want, there's only a few areas locked behind quest / story progression (IIRC: ||Mountaintops of the Giants, some bits of Ranni's questline, Mohg's area|| ), but there's probably non-quest ways to get to one of them as well.

On the one side, it's a hard game. On the other, you get used to it, the pacing, what to look out for; people have said Souls games are in essence rhythm games, :monster:. TL;DR, if you ever get hold of a copy, try it out, go explore, try something else or go somewhere else if you're stuck at a boss, and take your time :monster:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
ELDEN RING™_20240306164529.jpg

HOLY FUCKING SHIT! hours and hours spent learning this fight (my soul was broken and humiliated, along with my stamina), but I finally made it!

No rune arc or summon, Lvl 99, just pain and sweat and a bit of luck. Hardest boss, with Maliketh and Radahn coming in close. Very well designed fight but honestly that triple flurry slashes are bullshit. :monster:

Just need to beat more two optional bosses and I'm ready to finally clear this mastodon of a game.
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
So I finally beat this beast of a game (since my character did all the hard work, I chose the default ending).

I'm still grinning in disbelief at the vast amount of hours I spent in just 1 playthrough, 326 hours, and not a single one felt like a slog. This was the biggest single-player title I've ever played (and I think I'm still missing some equipment, dungeon, or a mini-boss here and there).

The level design is superb and filled with layers, making exploring rewarding, requiring creativity on the player's side.

Art direction, voice acting and enemy design is From at its best. Overall, Elden Ring ends up being my second favorite title from the company. Bloodborne is just slightly superior in my eyes.

Each major boss fight is a spectacle. The presentation and sound is top-notch. (highlights: Lichdragon Fortissax, Dragonlord Placidusax, Godskin Apostles, Radahn (especially the choir at 2nd phase), Rennala, Maliketh, Character Creation theme, the Main Theme, Final Battle, Leyndell, the immersive ambiance tracks of all regions).

All the epic struggles, the moments of awe while discovering fantastic and hidden optional areas by accident, the lore, getting attached to tragic NPCs, regretting your choices in a quest based on the outcome (Nepheli and Boc, I failed you), realizing the scope of the world (that feeling of getting outside Midgar for the first time, or realizing you can explore Kanto in Pokemon Silver), finding creative ways to defeat a group of enemies and so much more, the hardship, the mistery...

utterly amazing experience

10

(Im so glad there's DLC coming because I feel empty now).
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Sounds like a huge game. I watch lore videos of it, and despite the game clearly being rich in detail, right down to the design level, I guess the presentation of the videos had me feeling it was maybe a 50 hour game max, but you folks are saying 250 hours, 1000 hours? I'm considering buying it, but I think it is a bit too rage quit inducing for me, if it's a Dark Souls-like game :mon:.

Like Yop said, Elden Ring is FAR AND AWAY the most accessible Souls style game. The Legacy Dungeon sections all let you meander in and out of them at your own pace, there are summons & magic and you can really get a build going pretty quickly that will make it so that you don't feel overly rage-quit about it. There's no point where you'll ever feel trapped with nothing to do but bash your head in against a boss until you win. I'd been playing a bit of Bloodborne prior to Rebirth releasing and it is FAR less forgiving and doesn't have that level of freedom of progression. I'd easily say that this is well beyond worth the price of admission even if the Souls games aren't generally your jam.

The presentation of the world itself is something that's just REALLY easy to fall in love with and want to devote a ton of time to enjoying it, and there is a LOT of game to enjoy.

So I finally beat this beast of a game (since my character did all the hard work, I chose the default ending).

I'm still grinning in disbelief at the vast amount of hours I spent in just 1 playthrough, 326 hours, and not a single one felt like a slog. This was the biggest single-player title I've ever played (and I think I'm still missing some equipment, dungeon, or a mini-boss here and there).

The level design is superb and filled with layers, making exploring rewarding, requiring creativity on the player's side.

Art direction, voice acting and enemy design is From at its best. Overall, Elden Ring ends up being my second favorite title from the company. Bloodborne is just slightly superior in my eyes.

Each major boss fight is a spectacle. The presentation and sound is top-notch. (highlights: Lichdragon Fortissax, Dragonlord Placidusax, Godskin Apostles, Radahn (especially the choir at 2nd phase), Rennala, Maliketh, Character Creation theme, the Main Theme, Final Battle, Leyndell, the immersive ambiance tracks of all regions).

All the epic struggles, the moments of awe while discovering fantastic and hidden optional areas by accident, the lore, getting attached to tragic NPCs, regretting your choices in a quest based on the outcome (Nepheli and Boc, I failed you), realizing the scope of the world (that feeling of getting outside Midgar for the first time, or realizing you can explore Kanto in Pokemon Silver), finding creative ways to defeat a group of enemies and so much more, the hardship, the mistery...

utterly amazing experience

10

(Im so glad there's DLC coming because I feel empty now).

Huzzah!!! Radahn, Malenia, & Radagon were my favourite three boss fights in the game, so I'm REALLY stoked that you've gotten to experience all of them now! Elden Ring is AMAZING at how much all the time you spend in it feels like it's capturing things that you feel satisfied with having done. It'll be a blast to have a few more folk from 'round here in on delving into Shadow of the Erdtree when that drops.

Also, if there're any particular things still fresh in your brain that you're curious about in the world now that you've been through it all, feel free to mention whatever you like, and I'll be happy ta share some misc facts or places to go look at things, etc.



X :neo:
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Huzzah!!! Radahn, Malenia, & Radagon were my favourite three boss fights in the game, so I'm REALLY stoked that you've gotten to experience all of them now! Elden Ring is AMAZING at how much all the time you spend in it feels like it's capturing things that you feel satisfied with having done. It'll be a blast to have a few more folk from 'round here in on delving into Shadow of the Erdtree when that drops.

Also, if there're any particular things still fresh in your brain that you're curious about in the world now that you've been through it all, feel free to mention whatever you like, and I'll be happy ta share some misc facts or places to go look at things, etc.



X :neo:
Yes, I loved the Final Boss fight!
First phase, fast and intense, next one, slower and ethereal but still dangerous (cant really describe how much I was in awe at the whole thing, From are truly masterful artists, I stopped multiple times to admire the beast flying up and casting the runes). A similar feeling to fighting the colossus in SotC.

I would add
Godfrey
and Mogh, Lord of Blood next as truly fun and horrifying fights. Placidusax was particularly easier apart for the Ghidorah laser at the end (insta-death if caught).

I have a few questions, watched a bunch of lore videos (including cut content related) and read your essays and they align pretty well. Its incredible how much deeper the story is if you really work hard to link the fragmented pieces.

  • How Morgott, despite being Omen, is the lord of Leyndell?
  • Why Melina is considered to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen?
  • What was exactly the plan of Marika? Make the Tarnished stronger to beat the Golden Will`s vassal?
  • Was Radagon always Marika? If not, at what point did Marika decide to share her soul with another body and why exactly?
  • Why Ranni managed to kill herself only in body, and Godfrey died in soul only.
  • I`ve been reading about Miquella, and some item descriptions imply ambiguous intention (using love as a weapon). The opening line at the DLC`s trailer says it all, calling it "terrifying". What do you think, could Miquella be evil?
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Yes, I loved the Final Boss fight!
First phase, fast and intense, next one, slower and ethereal but still dangerous (cant really describe how much I was in awe at the whole thing, From are truly masterful artists, I stopped multiple times to admire the beast flying up and casting the runes). A similar feeling to fighting the colossus in SotC.

I would add
Godfrey
and Mogh, Lord of Blood next as truly fun and horrifying fights. Placidusax was particularly easier apart for the Ghidorah laser at the end (insta-death if caught).

I have a few questions, watched a bunch of lore videos (including cut content related) and read your essays and they align pretty well. Its incredible how much deeper the story is if you really work hard to link the fragmented pieces.

  • How Morgott, despite being Omen, is the lord of Leyndell?
  • Why Melina is considered to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen?
  • What was exactly the plan of Marika? Make the Tarnished stronger to beat the Golden Will`s vassal?
  • Was Radagon always Marika? If not, at what point did Marika decide to share her soul with another body and why exactly?
  • Why Ranni managed to kill herself only in body, and Godfrey died in soul only.
  • I`ve been reading about Miquella, and some item descriptions imply ambiguous intention (using love as a weapon). The opening line at the DLC`s trailer says it all, calling it "terrifying". What do you think, could Miquella be evil?
Yeah, the final battles really have a particular sense of wonder about them, but especially the first time that the battle music kicks in for both of them. Placidusax is another one of those ones that really struck me with a particular sense of awe because you can just look around the arena at everything before they drop down to initiate combat, but especially as he was the Elden Lord in the time before the Elden Lords, there are a lot of interesting parallels to the psuedo draconic nature of the Elden Beast.

I particularly like the juxtaposition between Lord Godfrey & Horah Loux showing the real division between the King Conan & Barbarian nature of the conquerer king and how their strength and charisma makes them a natural leader on the field of battle, the lack of the strife against which to clearly test oneself against a clear enemy has them struggle as a ruler. Mohg in particular has just layers of horror and embracing the unjustly shunned parts of himself whilst delving into wanton depravity in a way that's always terrifying, because all his actions are clearly self-serving and exploitive in a way that's unsettling in a different way from anything else in the game.

So into the bigger list of things:
  • How Morgott, despite being Omen, is the lord of Leyndell?
After the Shattering, both Queen Marika & Lord Radagon were sealed within the Erdtree. All of the heirs to the Golden Throne were at war with one another in an attempt to become Elden Lord, and the two who rose above everyone else were Malenia & Radahn – whose battle ended in a stalemate & the contamination of Caelid. Praetor Rykard was at war with the Capital, Miquella was at the Haligtree attempting to heal his sister, Ranni forsook her Great Rune and her body died when Godwyn's soul was slain. Despite his Omen nature, Morgott & Mohg are royal by blood, and he adopts the name Margit as a means to exist under a pseudonym and maintain control of Leyndell. The Fell Omen Cloak states, "Having slaughtered countless champions during the Shattering, the Fell Omen has become a horror to those who harbor ambitions for the Erdtree, or for Lordship." whilst the Nights Cavalry set states that, "The Night's Cavalry, who now wander the dim roads at night, were once led by the Fell Omen and were deliverers of death for great warriors, knights, and champions." detailing how he largely operated in protection of the capital city, with his Remebrance giving the rest of the context, "Though born one of the graceless Omen, Morgott took it upon himself to become the Erdtree's protector. He loved not in return, for he was never loved, but nevertheless, love it he did."

His Remembrance is traded for his Cursed Sword which is made of, "The accused blood that Morgott recanted and sealed away reformed into this blade." or for the fetish of the Regal Omen Bairn, "Doll of a curseborn bairn from the Erdtree's royal line. ... Omen babies born of royalty do not have their horns excised, but instead are kept underground, unbeknownst to anyone, imprisoned for eternity." which builds off of the context of the regular Omen Bairn, "Omen babies have all their horns excised, causing most to perish. "Please, don't hate me, or curse me. Please."" This presents some more context around how Morgott genuinely hated his own accursed blood, and the Phase 2 of his boss fight is him coughing up that blood and lamenting how the thrones are now stained by his curse. He seeks to safeguard the Golden Order despite the fact that he is condemned as unworthy by it. Nonetheless he still takes to holding the throne. When Lord Godfrey arrives, he gently lifts his fallen child at the start of the battle, because the Golden Order of his time didn't condemn the Omen Born.

The Horns were a sign of the Crucible which is why they're prominent on the Crucible Knights that were Godfrey's personal elites, and who utilize the Aspects of the Crucible Incantations, showing the Tail that Morgott possesses and growing the Wings like Mohg does in his second phase (which will finally be a player Incantation in Shadow of the Erdtree). Shadow of the Erdtree also shows Omen Horns growing prominently from Leonine figures all over to further emphasize this Primordial red-gold nature mentiond in the weapon for Siluria's Tree & Ordovis' Greatsword., but also lingering in Godrick's knights in the Gilded Greatshield, "The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree. The color of homeward yearning." which is a juxtaposition of how the Golden Order is a different gold where the red of Destined Death has been excised from it, rather than being intertwined with it. This is why Morgott has a slightly more brown gold hue to his blood in the Phase 2 arena, whereas his brother Mohg has seemingly lost all traces of Gold and instead is attempting to bond his blood into Miquella's Unalloyed Gold to make the Godwyn Dynasty as a way to overthrow the Golden Order as his lineage and rights to the throne are liken unto that of his brother, but with Miquella ascended as a god he would be the defacto inheritor.

Technically, The Fell Omen King is closer to being a King Regent rather than a true ruler, but with Lord Radagon in permanent limbo and the Erdtree rejecting all others, and himself as the last of the Golden Lineage who seeks to preserve and protect the ruins of the Golden Order, him having the title of King Morgott, Last of All Kings is as fitting as any.
  • Why Melina is considered to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen?
There are a number of reasons. First and foremost is that you can summon her into battle against Morgott, and the blade the wields is the Blade of Calling, "Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." explicitly as she promises to guide you to meet with Destined Death, and this is the style of blade that's formed into the blade which actually wields that power, the Black Knife "Dagger once belonging to one of the assassins who murdered Godwyn the Golden on the Night of the Black Knives. A ritual performed on the oddly misshapen blade imbued it with the power of the stolen Rune of Death." This places an associatiation between Melina & Destined Death even prior to her unique ending with The Frenzied Flame, where she promises to kill the Tarnished who's become the Lord of Chaos and opens her permanently closed eye to reveal it's a deep purple color – much like the hue of twilight which is the source of the name for the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

In addition to this, we know that her body was destroyed but not why, and the only other Empyrean that's known of is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, whom Marika defeated in the past and took Destined Death away from, and Melina starts by telling the Tarnished that her purpose was taken from her. As she guides the Tarnished to use the flames to burn the Erdtree and restore Destined Death, those are things that, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen, she would have known. Additionally, Enia's line about the Erdtree burning with Black Flame was edited out. In the game it appears as, "The Rune of Death is unbound. and the Lands Between are shrouded by Death's dark fate. But the flames will also burn the impenetrable thorns. Farewell it is, then. You’ll be Elden Lord, yet." One thing you'll notice that the "and" isn't properly capitalized at the start of the second sentence. This is because the full line was originally, "The Rune of Death is unbound. Black flames have devoured the Erdtree, and the Lands Between are shrouded by Death’s dark fate." but that part of the line is just cut out (apologies as I couldn't hunt down the datamined clip where someone restored that).

As this occurs when Melina sacrifices herself as the Kindling Maiden to burn down the Erdtree, and the Black Flames are the power of the Gloam-Eyed Queen as the incantations detail in Ritual Black Flame "The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers." Black Flame's Protection, "The Apostles were all embraced by the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the black flame was their armor within." and most importantly Scouring Black Flame, "The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost." – which shows that this flame once held the power of Destined Death as while it drains HP, it have the fell power to cap HP the way that the Black Blade attacks of the Black Knife or Gurranq's Black Blade do. There's strong enough lingering contextual evidence for that being taken from her, especially as the Beast Eye that Gurranq gives you to locate Deathroot is the same color as the one Melina always keeps closed.

The other details are that Ranni, Miquella, & Melina are all seemingly involved in assisting the Tarnished and also to some degree likely being involved with the Night of the Black Knives – which involves stealing back the Rune of Death and slaying gods with it – which is ultimately the path that Melina is leading you down and ensuring that you wield that power in service of just rule rather than wanton destruction. Her guidance being focused so specifically around those things adds in all the rest of the context that makes most people highly suspect that she is or once was the Empyrean known as the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

  • What was exactly the plan of Marika? Make the Tarnished stronger to beat the Golden Will`s vassal?
Marika's plan is built upon the issue of Lord Godfrey's eyes losing their lustre when he became Elden Lord and no longer had conflict to drive him to lead. That's why he's banished with the Tarnished, so that one day they'll be guided back to retake their home. Additionally, she's got a bit of an existential crisis going on about her role in things after that happens and everything for the modern Golden Order are formed with Lord Radagon. At some point, she tasks Master Hewg with crafting a weapon capable of killing a god. It's not entirely clear if she just wants the Tarnished to be capable of overcoming the emissary of the Greater Will in the Elden Beast, or if she is also looking for the release of death as soon as she experiences the pain of Godwyn's assassination that leads her to shattering the Elden Ring. Exactly how much autonomy Marika has in her role and how much she's just the vessel through which the Greater Will is allowed to exert its authority over the Lands Between isn't entirely clear.
  • Was Radagon always Marika? If not, at what point did Marika decide to share her soul with another body and why exactly?
It's not entirely clear how long they were always one, but the best point of reference is the intertwined relationship between "D, Hunter of the Dead" (Darian) and "D, Beholder of Death" (Devin) as their nature is very much the same. Their Twinned Armor states that, "The two known as D are inseparable twins. They are of two bodies and two minds, but one single soul. Not once do they stand together; not one word do they speak to one another." weapon the Inseparable Sword, "The inseparable twins found solace in the Golden Order, the only institution not to revile them as accursed beings." Additionally when Darian is killed by Fia returning the Weathered Dagger so that she can reclaim one half of the Rune of Death, his Deathroot-laced body is left behind, while when Devin kills Fia and then dies he leaves no corpse behind at all. This seems to suggest that Darian has the normal physical body (gold on their armor), whereas Devin was a Silver Tear (the silver body intertwined with it) and they shared a single soul between their two forms.

Initially the cut questline with Asimi the Mimic Tear and the nature of that as a larval parasitic relationship which she was attempting to ascend to the Elden Throne by making you powerful enough are a core part of that. The Mimic Tear Ashes still describe that motive, "Mimic tears are the result of an attempt by the Eternal City to forge a lord." The subtance suffused with the stars that Asimi requests the Tarnished to drink is likely identical to Seluvis' Potion which will turn someone into a living puppet – as the Starlight Shard states, "A prized item that was once used in the Eternal City as an ingredient in intoxicating draughts." (This is why he attempts to use the Amber Starlight to make a special potion capable of turning Ranni into a puppet at his own control). Asimi would have shed her physical form to fuse directly and inseparably with the Tarnished while also allowing her to maintain it while they were apart. This theme is further reinforced as the Night Maiden & Sword Mistress puppets state, "These sisters, members of a cold-blooded race who wield flowing weapons, became puppets of their own volition." and the Mimic Veil that allows you to transform to mimic nearby objects also bears her name, "When Godrick was hounded from Leyndell, the Royal Capital, this was one of a multitude of treasures he took with him. Also known as "Marika's Mischief"." All of this heavily insinuating that she is and has ALWAYS been a Silver Tear from the Eternal City, especially given that all the Nok inhabitants armor in 1.00 are simply called, "Descendant of Marika"

While it's not entirely clear when & how she became intertwined with Lord Radagon, this does at least give some of the underlying thematic nature to their interwoven shared host/parasite relationship where they are one another also in opposition to one another at the same time, as well as why their motif in the Sacred Relic Sword has their two bodies wrapped around it. I expect that this questline was cut as a part of a number of things that was because they wanted to rework the lore to be more in-line with what the rest of the game had shifted to, which is happening in Shadow of the Erdtree. I expect that we'll get more clarification here as it may even be something like Marika giving birth to a lord by being a Deathbed Companion meaning that the soul she shares may have always been the one of the Lord she bound herself to, or it may have happened later on. That's definitely something that's still got a lot of flexibility in what's been detailed and what's open still.
  • Why Ranni managed to kill herself only in body, and Godfrey died in soul only.
So, this happened because they both died at the exact same time, which meant that Destined Death killed her body & his soul, which is also what fractured the Rune of Death into two pieces – one of which you found with her body, and the other of which D had recovered from Summonwater Village when you first meet him. While the Cursemark of Death describes the event, what's key here is that it has another name, "Cursemark carved into the discarded flesh of Ranni the Witch. Also known as the half-wheel wound of the centipede. This cursemark was carved at the moment of Death of the first demigod, and should have taken the shape of a circle. However, two demigods perished at the same time, breaking the cursemark into two half-wheels. Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone." We know that the Golden Centipedes are "Kept as a fetish by Golden Order fundamentalists, especially the hunters of Those Who Live in Death. As such, they are found near churches and similar." Referring to it as the "Half-wheel wound of the Centipede" explains why both parts have to be rejoined to make the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, but there's also some important Japanese symbolism & spiritual themes at play here that take a lot of cultural context to unpack.

There's a Japanese idiom about Centipedes (mukade) coming in pairs which is, "If you kill one, the other will definitely appear." exactly the way we see with D & his brother then coming to murder Fia. Centipedes are also the symbol for the army that refused to retreat during the Warring States period, which is why that symbolism was previously used in Sekiro as a second life emerging from the bodies of being that are immortal; the Immortal Monks, the True Monk, Headless Apes, & Hanbei the Undying, who must be slain with the Mortal Blade, "An odachi capable of slaying the undying. Its crimson blade will take the life of any who dares draw it. Without the power of Resurrection, one could not hope to wield this weapon, which allows one to defeat even infested beings. Long concealed within Senpou Temple, the blade is inscribed with its true name: "Gracious Gift of Tears"." This grew from Bloodborne's parasite inside the Headless Bloodletting Beast. Essentially there is a longstanding theme intertwined to both parasitism and also the inherent nature of the Centipede as a form of keeping a body immortal. (This was at the core of a lot of the initial mythology with the Mimic Tear Asimi we just covered).

The other element is about Hun souls & Po souls from Chinese Onmyodo: Hun souls are an ethereal Yang element which is able to depart the body after death, whereas Po souls are a Yin element and inextricably linked to the corpse of the physical body. As such Ranni is a Yang Hun Soul while Godwyn is a Yin Po Soul. Hiroshi Aramata – the person who first translated huge amounts of Western Fantasy into Japanese (the works of H.P. Lovecraft, Conan the Barbarian, The Lord of the Rings, The Ship of Ishtar, etc.) and basically single-handedly made the lexicon for fantasy terminology of Western Magic that's still used today wrote his first original novel after doing that in the 80s – Teito Monogatari which you may recornize from the 1991 anime adaptation Doomed Megalopolis. This novel was not ONLY massively successful and established the themes about the undead spirits of the Taira Clan still being oppressed by the ruling Minamoto Clan (which Elden Ring uses heavily in the depiction of Those Who Live In Death & the Golden Order), but it also set off the boom of Onmyodo as Yin & Yang-based spiritual magic in tandem with Chinese Geomancy systems, which tied into all following depictions of Western Magic in Japanese fantasy adaptations (which is why those are what you see all throughout the very first Final Fantasy continuing all the way into why the White & Black Materia are tied to Aerith & Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII where both of them are in different states of death during the course of the game – Aerith no longer attached to her body and being ethereally returned to the Lifestream whilst Sephiroth is triggering Reunion and causing his body to reform. It's also a central element in basically EVERYTHING in Kingdom Hearts).

This Yin/Yang balance is a longstanding and culturally VERY well known juxtaposition of the two versions of immortality of when only one of the two souls remains because there is a disruption in the balance of the natural flow of life & death. You'll likely now instantly recognize Ranni attaching herself to a number of proxy dolls whilst Godwyn's body continues to mutate and grow intertwined into the Erdtree spreading death as being very much expected, since you're likely familiar with those things but just didn't know how to recognize them as something that you knew about indirectly. This core concept is why Miyazaki's games have started using the Centipede symbolism for how the two of them are instantly intertwined like Yin & Yang in a balanced immortality, and as soon as the one of the two Centipedes is fractured away from the other, they are drawn together – but ESPECIALLY when only half of them are killed. This also ties back into how the only way to prevent the other coming is to trap it and destroy it with fire. This is why Destined Death being linked to Centipedes & Flame is a key design element.

(This is one of many things that I only really know thanks to all the research I've been doing on the history of these design themes over the last several years, but also what I find most interesting is that there are a LOT of concepts & themes that Western audiences find IMMEDIATELY recognizable – but don't have any direct foothold to understand the symbolism because it doesn't exist Western culture. Instead they're becoming things that are implicitly understood in the West by people who just play these games come to recognize the design language building up those themes through game mythology without knowing the underlying context to them unless someone like me ambles along and decides to tl;dr some of the other elements of MOUNTAINS of cultural background lore that exists behind things, rather than just sticking to the in-game stuff – which I try to do as often as I can outside of my own research project that focuses explicitly on that – but this is one where there's really no other way to approach it).
  • I`ve been reading about Miquella, and some item descriptions imply ambiguous intention (using love as a weapon). The opening line at the DLC`s trailer says it all, calling it "terrifying". What do you think, could Miquella be evil?
I don't think that there's ever a definitive moral position that's capable of being assigned to that, and whether or not what Miquella is doing is "evil" will only be within the context of the greater picture of what it is that he's attempting to accomplish. I think that his power is inherently building off of the parasitism theme – because if you GENUINELY love something parasitic, you won't even care that you're sacrificing yourself and your own will over your body to do whatever it wants. The fact that Miquella possesses the power to compel the affections of others essentially means that he has the capability of wielding ANYONE'S power to his own ends – which is rightly the single most terrifying power of all as the trailer lays out directly in the opening. Even thinking about the Bewitching Branches in the game that use his power to make an enemy into your ally – you're having someone willingly turn around and murder their friends to protect you.

There's a reason that Obi-Wan first using The Force in Star Wars being used to trick Stormtroopers has a purposeful similarity to Paul & Lady Jessica using the Voice on the Harkonnen soldiers in Dune and the way in which Saruman is able to control Theoden in the Lord of the Rings simply through Wormtongue's influence of speech. It is a representations of the ultimate expression of power, because it is a tool that will allow someone to utilize another towards their own ends – even a king. I think that "The Riddle of Steel" from Conan the Barbarian is probably the perfect example especially because it involves that as the power linked to Thulsa Doom whose symbol is that of a two-headed serpent before a flaming sun – identical to the serpent who's intertwined over Messemer's flame-wreathed body in the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer.


After Lord Godfrey is banished from the Lands Between, he's referred to in the game's intro by his barbarian name, "Horah Loux, Cheiften of the Badlands" and shown before a tree with his arms bound up in the same position as when Conan is cruficied onto the Tree of Woe immediately after learning the answer to "the Riddle of Steel" which is what sets him up to eventually become a king, and is why this is the necessary image to represent Horah Loux returning as Lord Godfrey to reclaim his former title as Elden Lord. Notably the rescue scene in Conan involves the Japanese actor Mako tattooing Conan's body in ways that mirror the look of Hoichi the Earless in Kwaidan, so it should go without saying that this is a DEEPLY influential piece of media for the design of those fantasy elements, once again thanks to Hiroshi Aramata for translating those works and building the foundation for that. Hopefully this will give a bit more insight into why those sorts of themes are focused on in the ways that they are where it's a power that's terrifying, but what that power is in service of may be necessary to overcome something evil or a means to suppress something good.

It's worth remembering that even someone like Malenia who had no equal with the blade employed those skills exclusively with a title demonstrating how wholly devoted she was to her brother Miquella. There really isn't a way to quantify what that danger presents, because it's the sort of thing that requires willpower to overcome, and Miquella can even compel the Outer Gods so whether it's even possible to oppose something like that is questionable.

As one last rather interesting detail, the Unalloyed Gold Needle eventually leading to Miquella's Needle is what allows his power to transfer and suppress the will of anything else that's attempting to control to, essentially as he's forcing it to obey what you want. What's fascinating is that the Golden Needle exists in the Final Fantasy series as a cure to petrification. While there's a theory by EN & JP audiences that the Final Fantasy item is linked to acupuncture alleviating stiffness to explain the condition cure, I haven't actually been able to hunt down a definitive answer on that. I find it VERY surprising that this symbolism is popping up in Elden Ring in a way that restores a body in a different way around what's become such a pivotally influential character. It's made me curious if there is another obscure bit of folklore or mythos that may play into both of these things and their usage that I'm as of yet unaware of – but this is why I go down a billion different rabbit holes on research into just a staggering amount of things to get a perspective on how they're being represented before speaking from a position of more definitive certainty about the ideas or symbolism.

But hopefully my openness about when there's a seemingly critically influential thematic parallel that I actually DON'T know about and currently haven't got ANY real clue makes it a bit more believable to be able to know how much I know about the things I do sort of just go off about more off-the cuff.

Anyhow, thanks much for that list. It was a bunch of fun to get ta dive in on all of that stuff, and it's always a pleasure! :awesomonster:



X :neo:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Yeah, the final battles really have a particular sense of wonder about them, but especially the first time that the battle music kicks in for both of them. Placidusax is another one of those ones that really struck me with a particular sense of awe because you can just look around the arena at everything before they drop down to initiate combat, but especially as he was the Elden Lord in the time before the Elden Lords, there are a lot of interesting parallels to the psuedo draconic nature of the Elden Beast.

I particularly like the juxtaposition between Lord Godfrey & Horah Loux showing the real division between the King Conan & Barbarian nature of the conquerer king and how their strength and charisma makes them a natural leader on the field of battle, the lack of the strife against which to clearly test oneself against a clear enemy has them struggle as a ruler. Mohg in particular has just layers of horror and embracing the unjustly shunned parts of himself whilst delving into wanton depravity in a way that's always terrifying, because all his actions are clearly self-serving and exploitive in a way that's unsettling in a different way from anything else in the game.

So into the bigger list of things:
  • How Morgott, despite being Omen, is the lord of Leyndell?
After the Shattering, both Queen Marika & Lord Radagon were sealed within the Erdtree. All of the heirs to the Golden Throne were at war with one another in an attempt to become Elden Lord, and the two who rose above everyone else were Malenia & Radahn – whose battle ended in a stalemate & the contamination of Caelid. Praetor Rykard was at war with the Capital, Miquella was at the Haligtree attempting to heal his sister, Ranni forsook her Great Rune and her body died when Godwyn's soul was slain. Despite his Omen nature, Morgott & Mohg are royal by blood, and he adopts the name Margit as a means to exist under a pseudonym and maintain control of Leyndell. The Fell Omen Cloak states, "Having slaughtered countless champions during the Shattering, the Fell Omen has become a horror to those who harbor ambitions for the Erdtree, or for Lordship." whilst the Nights Cavalry set states that, "The Night's Cavalry, who now wander the dim roads at night, were once led by the Fell Omen and were deliverers of death for great warriors, knights, and champions." detailing how he largely operated in protection of the capital city, with his Remebrance giving the rest of the context, "Though born one of the graceless Omen, Morgott took it upon himself to become the Erdtree's protector. He loved not in return, for he was never loved, but nevertheless, love it he did."

His Remembrance is traded for his Cursed Sword which is made of, "The accused blood that Morgott recanted and sealed away reformed into this blade." or for the fetish of the Regal Omen Bairn, "Doll of a curseborn bairn from the Erdtree's royal line. ... Omen babies born of royalty do not have their horns excised, but instead are kept underground, unbeknownst to anyone, imprisoned for eternity." which builds off of the context of the regular Omen Bairn, "Omen babies have all their horns excised, causing most to perish. "Please, don't hate me, or curse me. Please."" This presents some more context around how Morgott genuinely hated his own accursed blood, and the Phase 2 of his boss fight is him coughing up that blood and lamenting how the thrones are now stained by his curse. He seeks to safeguard the Golden Order despite the fact that he is condemned as unworthy by it. Nonetheless he still takes to holding the throne. When Lord Godfrey arrives, he gently lifts his fallen child at the start of the battle, because the Golden Order of his time didn't condemn the Omen Born.

The Horns were a sign of the Crucible which is why they're prominent on the Crucible Knights that were Godfrey's personal elites, and who utilize the Aspects of the Crucible Incantations, showing the Tail that Morgott possesses and growing the Wings like Mohg does in his second phase (which will finally be a player Incantation in Shadow of the Erdtree). Shadow of the Erdtree also shows Omen Horns growing prominently from Leonine figures all over to further emphasize this Primordial red-gold nature mentiond in the weapon for Siluria's Tree & Ordovis' Greatsword., but also lingering in Godrick's knights in the Gilded Greatshield, "The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree. The color of homeward yearning." which is a juxtaposition of how the Golden Order is a different gold where the red of Destined Death has been excised from it, rather than being intertwined with it. This is why Morgott has a slightly more brown gold hue to his blood in the Phase 2 arena, whereas his brother Mohg has seemingly lost all traces of Gold and instead is attempting to bond his blood into Miquella's Unalloyed Gold to make the Godwyn Dynasty as a way to overthrow the Golden Order as his lineage and rights to the throne are liken unto that of his brother, but with Miquella ascended as a god he would be the defacto inheritor.

Technically, The Fell Omen King is closer to being a King Regent rather than a true ruler, but with Lord Radagon in permanent limbo and the Erdtree rejecting all others, and himself as the last of the Golden Lineage who seeks to preserve and protect the ruins of the Golden Order, him having the title of King Morgott, Last of All Kings is as fitting as any.
  • Why Melina is considered to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen?
There are a number of reasons. First and foremost is that you can summon her into battle against Morgott, and the blade the wields is the Blade of Calling, "Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." explicitly as she promises to guide you to meet with Destined Death, and this is the style of blade that's formed into the blade which actually wields that power, the Black Knife "Dagger once belonging to one of the assassins who murdered Godwyn the Golden on the Night of the Black Knives. A ritual performed on the oddly misshapen blade imbued it with the power of the stolen Rune of Death." This places an associatiation between Melina & Destined Death even prior to her unique ending with The Frenzied Flame, where she promises to kill the Tarnished who's become the Lord of Chaos and opens her permanently closed eye to reveal it's a deep purple color – much like the hue of twilight which is the source of the name for the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

In addition to this, we know that her body was destroyed but not why, and the only other Empyrean that's known of is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, whom Marika defeated in the past and took Destined Death away from, and Melina starts by telling the Tarnished that her purpose was taken from her. As she guides the Tarnished to use the flames to burn the Erdtree and restore Destined Death, those are things that, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen, she would have known. Additionally, Enia's line about the Erdtree burning with Black Flame was edited out. In the game it appears as, "The Rune of Death is unbound. and the Lands Between are shrouded by Death's dark fate. But the flames will also burn the impenetrable thorns. Farewell it is, then. You’ll be Elden Lord, yet." One thing you'll notice that the "and" isn't properly capitalized at the start of the second sentence. This is because the full line was originally, "The Rune of Death is unbound. Black flames have devoured the Erdtree, and the Lands Between are shrouded by Death’s dark fate." but that part of the line is just cut out (apologies as I couldn't hunt down the datamined clip where someone restored that).

As this occurs when Melina sacrifices herself as the Kindling Maiden to burn down the Erdtree, and the Black Flames are the power of the Gloam-Eyed Queen as the incantations detail in Ritual Black Flame "The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers." Black Flame's Protection, "The Apostles were all embraced by the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the black flame was their armor within." and most importantly Scouring Black Flame, "The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost." – which shows that this flame once held the power of Destined Death as while it drains HP, it have the fell power to cap HP the way that the Black Blade attacks of the Black Knife or Gurranq's Black Blade do. There's strong enough lingering contextual evidence for that being taken from her, especially as the Beast Eye that Gurranq gives you to locate Deathroot is the same color as the one Melina always keeps closed.

The other details are that Ranni, Miquella, & Melina are all seemingly involved in assisting the Tarnished and also to some degree likely being involved with the Night of the Black Knives – which involves stealing back the Rune of Death and slaying gods with it – which is ultimately the path that Melina is leading you down and ensuring that you wield that power in service of just rule rather than wanton destruction. Her guidance being focused so specifically around those things adds in all the rest of the context that makes most people highly suspect that she is or once was the Empyrean known as the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

  • What was exactly the plan of Marika? Make the Tarnished stronger to beat the Golden Will`s vassal?
Marika's plan is built upon the issue of Lord Godfrey's eyes losing their lustre when he became Elden Lord and no longer had conflict to drive him to lead. That's why he's banished with the Tarnished, so that one day they'll be guided back to retake their home. Additionally, she's got a bit of an existential crisis going on about her role in things after that happens and everything for the modern Golden Order are formed with Lord Radagon. At some point, she tasks Master Hewg with crafting a weapon capable of killing a god. It's not entirely clear if she just wants the Tarnished to be capable of overcoming the emissary of the Greater Will in the Elden Beast, or if she is also looking for the release of death as soon as she experiences the pain of Godwyn's assassination that leads her to shattering the Elden Ring. Exactly how much autonomy Marika has in her role and how much she's just the vessel through which the Greater Will is allowed to exert its authority over the Lands Between isn't entirely clear.
  • Was Radagon always Marika? If not, at what point did Marika decide to share her soul with another body and why exactly?
It's not entirely clear how long they were always one, but the best point of reference is the intertwined relationship between "D, Hunter of the Dead" (Darian) and "D, Beholder of Death" (Devin) as their nature is very much the same. Their Twinned Armor states that, "The two known as D are inseparable twins. They are of two bodies and two minds, but one single soul. Not once do they stand together; not one word do they speak to one another." weapon the Inseparable Sword, "The inseparable twins found solace in the Golden Order, the only institution not to revile them as accursed beings." Additionally when Darian is killed by Fia returning the Weathered Dagger so that she can reclaim one half of the Rune of Death, his Deathroot-laced body is left behind, while when Devin kills Fia and then dies he leaves no corpse behind at all. This seems to suggest that Darian has the normal physical body (gold on their armor), whereas Devin was a Silver Tear (the silver body intertwined with it) and they shared a single soul between their two forms.

Initially the cut questline with Asimi the Mimic Tear and the nature of that as a larval parasitic relationship which she was attempting to ascend to the Elden Throne by making you powerful enough are a core part of that. The Mimic Tear Ashes still describe that motive, "Mimic tears are the result of an attempt by the Eternal City to forge a lord." The subtance suffused with the stars that Asimi requests the Tarnished to drink is likely identical to Seluvis' Potion which will turn someone into a living puppet – as the Starlight Shard states, "A prized item that was once used in the Eternal City as an ingredient in intoxicating draughts." (This is why he attempts to use the Amber Starlight to make a special potion capable of turning Ranni into a puppet at his own control). Asimi would have shed her physical form to fuse directly and inseparably with the Tarnished while also allowing her to maintain it while they were apart. This theme is further reinforced as the Night Maiden & Sword Mistress puppets state, "These sisters, members of a cold-blooded race who wield flowing weapons, became puppets of their own volition." and the Mimic Veil that allows you to transform to mimic nearby objects also bears her name, "When Godrick was hounded from Leyndell, the Royal Capital, this was one of a multitude of treasures he took with him. Also known as "Marika's Mischief"." All of this heavily insinuating that she is and has ALWAYS been a Silver Tear from the Eternal City, especially given that all the Nok inhabitants armor in 1.00 are simply called, "Descendant of Marika"

While it's not entirely clear when & how she became intertwined with Lord Radagon, this does at least give some of the underlying thematic nature to their interwoven shared host/parasite relationship where they are one another also in opposition to one another at the same time, as well as why their motif in the Sacred Relic Sword has their two bodies wrapped around it. I expect that this questline was cut as a part of a number of things that was because they wanted to rework the lore to be more in-line with what the rest of the game had shifted to, which is happening in Shadow of the Erdtree. I expect that we'll get more clarification here as it may even be something like Marika giving birth to a lord by being a Deathbed Companion meaning that the soul she shares may have always been the one of the Lord she bound herself to, or it may have happened later on. That's definitely something that's still got a lot of flexibility in what's been detailed and what's open still.
  • Why Ranni managed to kill herself only in body, and Godfrey died in soul only.
So, this happened because they both died at the exact same time, which meant that Destined Death killed her body & his soul, which is also what fractured the Rune of Death into two pieces – one of which you found with her body, and the other of which D had recovered from Summonwater Village when you first meet him. While the Cursemark of Death describes the event, what's key here is that it has another name, "Cursemark carved into the discarded flesh of Ranni the Witch. Also known as the half-wheel wound of the centipede. This cursemark was carved at the moment of Death of the first demigod, and should have taken the shape of a circle. However, two demigods perished at the same time, breaking the cursemark into two half-wheels. Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone." We know that the Golden Centipedes are "Kept as a fetish by Golden Order fundamentalists, especially the hunters of Those Who Live in Death. As such, they are found near churches and similar." Referring to it as the "Half-wheel wound of the Centipede" explains why both parts have to be rejoined to make the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, but there's also some important Japanese symbolism & spiritual themes at play here that take a lot of cultural context to unpack.

There's a Japanese idiom about Centipedes (mukade) coming in pairs which is, "If you kill one, the other will definitely appear." exactly the way we see with D & his brother then coming to murder Fia. Centipedes are also the symbol for the army that refused to retreat during the Warring States period, which is why that symbolism was previously used in Sekiro as a second life emerging from the bodies of being that are immortal; the Immortal Monks, the True Monk, Headless Apes, & Hanbei the Undying, who must be slain with the Mortal Blade, "An odachi capable of slaying the undying. Its crimson blade will take the life of any who dares draw it. Without the power of Resurrection, one could not hope to wield this weapon, which allows one to defeat even infested beings. Long concealed within Senpou Temple, the blade is inscribed with its true name: "Gracious Gift of Tears"." This grew from Bloodborne's parasite inside the Headless Bloodletting Beast. Essentially there is a longstanding theme intertwined to both parasitism and also the inherent nature of the Centipede as a form of keeping a body immortal. (This was at the core of a lot of the initial mythology with the Mimic Tear Asimi we just covered).

The other element is about Hun souls & Po souls from Chinese Onmyodo: Hun souls are an ethereal Yang element which is able to depart the body after death, whereas Po souls are a Yin element and inextricably linked to the corpse of the physical body. As such Ranni is a Yang Hun Soul while Godwyn is a Yin Po Soul. Hiroshi Aramata – the person who first translated huge amounts of Western Fantasy into Japanese (the works of H.P. Lovecraft, Conan the Barbarian, The Lord of the Rings, The Ship of Ishtar, etc.) and basically single-handedly made the lexicon for fantasy terminology of Western Magic that's still used today wrote his first original novel after doing that in the 80s – Teito Monogatari which you may recornize from the 1991 anime adaptation Doomed Megalopolis. This novel was not ONLY massively successful and established the themes about the undead spirits of the Taira Clan still being oppressed by the ruling Minamoto Clan (which Elden Ring uses heavily in the depiction of Those Who Live In Death & the Golden Order), but it also set off the boom of Onmyodo as Yin & Yang-based spiritual magic in tandem with Chinese Geomancy systems, which tied into all following depictions of Western Magic in Japanese fantasy adaptations (which is why those are what you see all throughout the very first Final Fantasy continuing all the way into why the White & Black Materia are tied to Aerith & Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII where both of them are in different states of death during the course of the game – Aerith no longer attached to her body and being ethereally returned to the Lifestream whilst Sephiroth is triggering Reunion and causing his body to reform. It's also a central element in basically EVERYTHING in Kingdom Hearts).

This Yin/Yang balance is a longstanding and culturally VERY well known juxtaposition of the two versions of immortality of when only one of the two souls remains because there is a disruption in the balance of the natural flow of life & death. You'll likely now instantly recognize Ranni attaching herself to a number of proxy dolls whilst Godwyn's body continues to mutate and grow intertwined into the Erdtree spreading death as being very much expected, since you're likely familiar with those things but just didn't know how to recognize them as something that you knew about indirectly. This core concept is why Miyazaki's games have started using the Centipede symbolism for how the two of them are instantly intertwined like Yin & Yang in a balanced immortality, and as soon as the one of the two Centipedes is fractured away from the other, they are drawn together – but ESPECIALLY when only half of them are killed. This also ties back into how the only way to prevent the other coming is to trap it and destroy it with fire. This is why Destined Death being linked to Centipedes & Flame is a key design element.

(This is one of many things that I only really know thanks to all the research I've been doing on the history of these design themes over the last several years, but also what I find most interesting is that there are a LOT of concepts & themes that Western audiences find IMMEDIATELY recognizable – but don't have any direct foothold to understand the symbolism because it doesn't exist Western culture. Instead they're becoming things that are implicitly understood in the West by people who just play these games come to recognize the design language building up those themes through game mythology without knowing the underlying context to them unless someone like me ambles along and decides to tl;dr some of the other elements of MOUNTAINS of cultural background lore that exists behind things, rather than just sticking to the in-game stuff – which I try to do as often as I can outside of my own research project that focuses explicitly on that – but this is one where there's really no other way to approach it).
  • I`ve been reading about Miquella, and some item descriptions imply ambiguous intention (using love as a weapon). The opening line at the DLC`s trailer says it all, calling it "terrifying". What do you think, could Miquella be evil?
I don't think that there's ever a definitive moral position that's capable of being assigned to that, and whether or not what Miquella is doing is "evil" will only be within the context of the greater picture of what it is that he's attempting to accomplish. I think that his power is inherently building off of the parasitism theme – because if you GENUINELY love something parasitic, you won't even care that you're sacrificing yourself and your own will over your body to do whatever it wants. The fact that Miquella possesses the power to compel the affections of others essentially means that he has the capability of wielding ANYONE'S power to his own ends – which is rightly the single most terrifying power of all as the trailer lays out directly in the opening. Even thinking about the Bewitching Branches in the game that use his power to make an enemy into your ally – you're having someone willingly turn around and murder their friends to protect you.

There's a reason that Obi-Wan first using The Force in Star Wars being used to trick Stormtroopers has a purposeful similarity to Paul & Lady Jessica using the Voice on the Harkonnen soldiers in Dune and the way in which Saruman is able to control Theoden in the Lord of the Rings simply through Wormtongue's influence of speech. It is a representations of the ultimate expression of power, because it is a tool that will allow someone to utilize another towards their own ends – even a king. I think that "The Riddle of Steel" from Conan the Barbarian is probably the perfect example especially because it involves that as the power linked to Thulsa Doom whose symbol is that of a two-headed serpent before a flaming sun – identical to the serpent who's intertwined over Messemer's flame-wreathed body in the Shadow of the Erdtree trailer.


After Lord Godfrey is banished from the Lands Between, he's referred to in the game's intro by his barbarian name, "Horah Loux, Cheiften of the Badlands" and shown before a tree with his arms bound up in the same position as when Conan is cruficied onto the Tree of Woe immediately after learning the answer to "the Riddle of Steel" which is what sets him up to eventually become a king, and is why this is the necessary image to represent Horah Loux returning as Lord Godfrey to reclaim his former title as Elden Lord. Notably the rescue scene in Conan involves the Japanese actor Mako tattooing Conan's body in ways that mirror the look of Hoichi the Earless in Kwaidan, so it should go without saying that this is a DEEPLY influential piece of media for the design of those fantasy elements, once again thanks to Hiroshi Aramata for translating those works and building the foundation for that. Hopefully this will give a bit more insight into why those sorts of themes are focused on in the ways that they are where it's a power that's terrifying, but what that power is in service of may be necessary to overcome something evil or a means to suppress something good.

It's worth remembering that even someone like Malenia who had no equal with the blade employed those skills exclusively with a title demonstrating how wholly devoted she was to her brother Miquella. There really isn't a way to quantify what that danger presents, because it's the sort of thing that requires willpower to overcome, and Miquella can even compel the Outer Gods so whether it's even possible to oppose something like that is questionable.

As one last rather interesting detail, the Unalloyed Gold Needle eventually leading to Miquella's Needle is what allows his power to transfer and suppress the will of anything else that's attempting to control to, essentially as he's forcing it to obey what you want. What's fascinating is that the Golden Needle exists in the Final Fantasy series as a cure to petrification. While there's a theory by EN & JP audiences that the Final Fantasy item is linked to acupuncture alleviating stiffness to explain the condition cure, I haven't actually been able to hunt down a definitive answer on that. I find it VERY surprising that this symbolism is popping up in Elden Ring in a way that restores a body in a different way around what's become such a pivotally influential character. It's made me curious if there is another obscure bit of folklore or mythos that may play into both of these things and their usage that I'm as of yet unaware of – but this is why I go down a billion different rabbit holes on research into just a staggering amount of things to get a perspective on how they're being represented before speaking from a position of more definitive certainty about the ideas or symbolism.

But hopefully my openness about when there's a seemingly critically influential thematic parallel that I actually DON'T know about and currently haven't got ANY real clue makes it a bit more believable to be able to know how much I know about the things I do sort of just go off about more off-the cuff.

Anyhow, thanks much for that list. It was a bunch of fun to get ta dive in on all of that stuff, and it's always a pleasure! :awesomonster:



X :neo:
Really appreciate the detailed explanation.

About Melina

Wasnt expecting that amount of evidence to support the Melina - Gloam-Eyed Queen connection. I remember someone linking her with the Twinbird because of the sign in her closed eye. As far as I know, the mother of Deathbirds doesn't have an implied relation with the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but I might be wrong on that.

About Morgott,

I was more confused on how people accepted an Omen ruling their city, but if he turned ruler after the Shattering, or at a point of crisis when everyone lost their minds, then it becomes a non issue. Definitely a candidate for most tragic Elden Ring character, anyway. He was faithful until the end, gaining nothing in return.

About Ranni and Godwyn,

Wait I had no idea D stole a fragment of Death. (I didnt meet him first in Limgrave, he simply appeared on the Roundtable Hound after I gained access to Bestial Sanctum). Also I was completely blown away that Maliketh is Gurranq, so the sin he was talking about was his failure for having a fragment of Death stolen. I cant even fathom the amount of pain and guilt he was carrying during all this time (his theme song is very melancholic). From doesnt fuck around at making you feel miserable.

Back to the Half-mark of the centipede, is it ever explained how Ranni knew she would be able to keep her soul and Godwyn his body, is there even a mechanism for that?

---------

For a fun trivia, I just found out who voices Mogh.


Pretty easy to spot :monster:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Really appreciate the detailed explanation.

About Melina

Wasnt expecting that amount of evidence to support the Melina - Gloam-Eyed Queen connection. I remember someone linking her with the Twinbird because of the sign in her closed eye. As far as I know, the mother of Deathbirds doesn't have an implied relation with the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but I might be wrong on that.
Glad to provide!

There's VERY little on the Deathbirds and they underwent a LOT of changes between, 1.00 & release with the Ghostflame originally not being Frostbite and also being the same as the Black Flame. About the only iconography of the mother of the Deathbirds is on the shield and also on the architecture throughout Farum Azula which presents contextual overlap, but is also in a state where the design has undergone enough alteration late enough in development (with Helphen's Steelple's Weapon Ash originally not even dealing Frostbite damage when alight), where it's likely that there HAD been some link or connection but far from enough to link them definitively any more.

About Morgott,

I was more confused on how people accepted an Omen ruling their city, but if he turned ruler after the Shattering, or at a point of crisis when everyone lost their minds, then it becomes a non issue. Definitely a candidate for most tragic Elden Ring character, anyway. He was faithful until the end, gaining nothing in return.
Yeah, his initial appearance to the Tarnished at Stormvale as well as the resigned hopelessness in his voice after his defeat really emphasizes that, and it's why I'm glad that Godfrey is so gentle with him when he returns, seemingly as the last thing Morgott experiences before passing on.
About Ranni and Godwyn,

Wait I had no idea D stole a fragment of Death. (I didnt meet him first in Limgrave, he simply appeared on the Roundtable Hound after I gained access to Bestial Sanctum). Also I was completely blown away that Maliketh is Gurranq, so the sin he was talking about was his failure for having a fragment of Death stolen. I cant even fathom the amount of pain and guilt he was carrying during all this time (his theme song is very melancholic). From doesnt fuck around at making you feel miserable.

Back to the Half-mark of the centipede, is it ever explained how Ranni knew she would be able to keep her soul and Godwyn his body, is there even a mechanism for that?

---------

For a fun trivia, I just found out who voices Mogh.


Pretty easy to spot :monster:
Ah, yeah – he's initially just outside of Summonwater Village and will mention finding a Cursemark of the Centipede there if you meet him before the Roundtable Hold. Additionally, Gurranq has completely different dialogue in the opening and ending of his boss fight depending on whether or not you've completed his questline. The sin he feels is not ONLY that, but also the fact that it lead to Godwyn's body becoming the source of the Deathroot and no matter what he does, it's impossible for him to undo that damage.

This is one where I'm not sure she has expected that to happen at all. In the text for Shadow of the Erdtree, Miquella has divested himself of is power, flesh, and everything golden, and it seems like Ranni & Godwyn may have been doing something similar but it went sideways. The motives behind the Night of the Black Knives aren't explicitly clear about whether this was intentional or if it was an attempt to just die in order to escape the power of the Two Finger's control that then had to go into even more complexity given what occurred.

Given that the Shattering itself was the result of Marika's attempt to break something that was countered by a foil, I expect that something similarly circumstantial lead to those events, especially as the Epitaph Sword have Miquella's wish for Godwyn to die a true death – and his circumstances remain anything but that.

Related just as Malekith is Queen Marika's Shadow while Blaidd is Ranni's and the shadow version of him we have to fight in Nokstella is an entity of Destined Death created as a method of control by the Two Fingers, I am rather curious whether Messemer is the "Shadow of the Erdtree" in a similar manner, or if that title may refer to something else.


Also, I wouldn't ever have guessed that without the context, but now it's so obvious! :monster:



X :neo:
 
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wander

‪‫‬‭ ‮
Ranni's quest was the high point of the game.

It also made the game completely hollow for me once the quest was over.

Elden Ring was a very cool game but I haven't felt the desire to play it again after completing it when it came out. I'll drop back in for the DLC.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
I did two playthroughs after it came out, first one trying to go in blind and not following any guides - fission mailed, ended up with the
LET CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD!11
ending, second one a fuck it, I'll cheese it doing magic because Comet Azure is OP and hillarious, but with that one went down Ranni's rabbithole and it was a great experience, :monster:.

Love how they were able to craft a "choose your own adventure" type of game without the choices being obvious choices like e.g. modern day interactive novel video games, and for the most part avoiding points of no return / you can no longer achieve this ending. The downside there is that you either need a video explaining things or a lot of red yarn to connect all the dots though, and there's A Lot of dots to connect.

Anyway I'll probably do a Faith build when the DLC lands, it seems faith builds get the more interesting and diverse spells, whereas glintstone magic mainly has a dozen variations of simple projectile spells, :monster:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
The Carian Sword Sorceries have some neat non-projectile options, but they feel rather same-y in a similar way. I am hoping that Glintstone magic gets a few more interesting types of spells beyond the bulk being swords & magic projectiles. A lot of the more interesting Incantations & Sorceries both require some overlap between Int & Faith. Case in point, Discus of Light became the most OBSCENELY overpowered spell post-1.07, which requires 13 Faith & 13 Int, has a ridiculously long range, hits when you throw it AND on return, you can PARRY the return hit to activate Carian/Golden Retaliation on a shield, and it costs ridiculously tiny 3 FP to cast – which means ANY "restores FP on kill" equipment will make it cost nothing if you can kill in a single two-hit cast.

Even upon mostly maxing out most of the stats, I've found that (aside from that one Incantation) I've mostly stuck with Sorceries, because they seem to deal a lot better with single targets, whereas the Incantations very often have a wider attack area. Incantations also get most of the buffs, which I usually don't pay too much attention to, since that's really just augmenting normal combat and isn't really its own thing.

My primary spell lineup:
Carian Piercer: Can be charged for Godfrey's Icon boost & will knock over humanoid opponents even up to ones as big as the Omens
• Ancient Death Rancor: Can be charged for Godfrey's Icon boost, and has ridiculous tracking, range, & flinch.
• Shard Spiral: Can be charged for Godfrey's Icon boost, and persists so that it will multi-hit large hitbox enemies.
• Night Comet: Can be charged for Godfrey's Icon boost, and NPC-type enemies won't dodge it as it's invisible.
• Great Oracular Bubble: Can be charged for Godfrey's Icon boost, and works as a unique spacing tool with a huge detonation radius
• Rock Sling: Can be extended by the Arrow's Reach Talisman, & does Great stagger damage.
• Ambush Shard: Can be extended by the Arrow's Reach Talisman, and can circumvent line-of sight barriers so long as you can lock-on.
• Discus of Light: Just... so insanely cost effective it's what I use to attack most anything where I don't want to actually spend FP.
• Ranni's Dark Moon: Makes everything take more magic damage & deals frostbite.

Essentially, I'll keep the Godfrey Icon on most of the time, but if I'm out in the field or want to be able to snipe something at a significant range rather than deal with it directly, the Arrow's Reach Talisman makes an easy swap that never had to happen under duress.

Some other combinations that I've toyed around with are things like using the "Aspects of the Crucible: Tail incantation" as a way to stagger and push-back in a big AoE, especially after the Fallingstar Beast Jaw weapon ash "Gravity Bolt" didn't keep its stagger capability. Overall though, having the ash "Glintblade Phalanx" on a Cold aspected Halberd/Spear ends up being a better stagger & defense tool.

For a while I was using the incantation "Magma Breath" as a way to deploy a burning field effect, and then use the Death's Poker ash Ghostflame Ignition to drop a Ghostflame line inside the magma, as the fire will instantly reset the Frostbite after it triggers and you can re-proc the damage burst multiple times against bigger opponents. While it's fun, it's also pretty niche in how often it's an effective strategy against enemies, whereas "Cairan Piercer" ends up being an easier way to push them down and lay down a line of Ghostflame.

As such, I've almost always kept to having the Staff/Seal in my offhand, so that I can always cast in tandem with a Weapon Ash. The only exception being when I was using both the Commander's Standard & Jellyfish Shield as a way to boost the damage output of spells as high as I could earlier on in the game. As soon as I got more weapon Ashes for things like improved evasion from the Bloodhound's Step that made it easier to run a build where more armor wasn't yet an option, and then more things for simultaneous damage & healing as I got endurance to have a bit more Poise to tank through some longer casts, I've alway stuck to offhand casting.

Insofar as weapons: A Glintblade Phalanx'd Halberd & the Death's Poker are ALWAYS my primary weapons. Those two Ashes are SO ridiculously versatile, AND both have modifications that you can trigger, that I essentially never have a situation where it's not excellent to have both of them at my disposal, and being able to trigger Frostbite just ends up always feeling like the most useful status in combat for keeping the opponent in check.

I have a few different options for what I like aside from those. The Death Ritual Spear having the ash "Spearcall Ritual" ended up being a better stagger/flinch damage tool than the Fallingstar Beast Jaw after the stagger nerfs, and it's also great as an area-denial at a medium range, as well as wrecking through large hitbox enemies. On top of that, because it's a spear you can use a Greatshield with assigned with Ash "No Skill" to be defensive against anything that hits like a truck to open them up easily and then just use the weapon ash without putting the shield away. I've been running around with that most recently.

The other things I'll swap to depending on tactics are the Commander's Standard because casting with the ash "Rallying Standard" providing a huge buff to attack & defense is fantastic. A cold aspected Great Stars with Hoarfrost Stomp is great for stopping groups as well as procing frostbite and also recovering a bit of health all at once, while having a quality aspect Golem's Halberd with Prayerful Strike gives you really good range to be able to recover a massive chunk of health, but especially if you have a really light shield with the ash "Holy Ground" to swap over to as a boost to defense & damage regen.

Armor-wise: The Fingerprint Helm, Black Knife Armor, Fire Prelate Gauntlets, & Fire Prelate Greaves
It lets me move around completely silently so that any attacks I make from range can happen when I want, and it lets me avoid combat when I want to as well, while it also maintains almost the exact Black Knife Assassin look but maintains a Poise of 64 to not get easily knocked around when I do cast. This also gets the fashion souls advantage of being able to have the mantle's hood up, since the only other helms that allow you to have that are the Black Knife Hood, Nox Monk Hood (Altered), Nox Swordstress Crown (Altered), & Eccentric's Hood (Altered).

The one thing that I miss most from the Fallingstar Beast Jaw is having something that felt like a really central Gravity Sorcery to my build. Ideally, I'd like Shadow of the Erdtree to have a Gravity Sorcery that does a charged hard knockdown the way Carian Piercer does or as an Ash of War that's capable of a better stagger than Glintblade Phalanx, as both of those feel like they OUGHT to be things that are more in line with the school of magic where a majority of the damage and impact they deal is directly physical damage rather than magic damage. It makes it harder for their Sorcerers to augment the damage directly, and focuses more on opening up windows that they don't specialize in as much with direct weapon combat.

Really though, I'm also stoked that there are 8 new CATEGORIES of weapon, because that's just... SUCH a ridiculously large array of things that I think even that alone means that I'll inevitably end up having some new things that can shake up the parts of my build that feel like staples at this point – which I'm really looking forward to. Even running on a near-maxed out character, I'm glad that they're using the Sekiro-like progression, so that I don't have to start off a brand new character and can just roll in while the overall difficulty threshold has scaling where (especially given all of the staggering soft caps built in to the game's stats) I expect that it'll still be a really fun time.




X :neo:
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I like Faith incantations better than Sorceries (the Crucible ones are amazing, I can't wait for the wings). Like Cluthu said, they are mostly blue projectiles and the casting sound is repetitive to me.

Anyway, I've been wrapping up the game to get the remaining items I missed and PVPing while doing so and having a blast. Turns out I had two mini-dungeons yet to discover, a lot of weapons, some Death Birds and Sentinels, and some relevant talismans. Farming the Iron Greatsword, Great Envoy Horn and Noble's Estoc was painful though...

Invading is absolute bliss, there's nothing like firing Jar Cannons on players near places where falling leads to death and sending their bodies flying away quite literally. :monster:

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Having completed the game for a while now, I realized this is the best game I played on the last 10 years at least and the last truly outstanding one was Bloodborne; From Software is slowly cementing itself as my favorite company. The Shadow of the Erdtree hype is through the roof.

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Also, I was meaning to ask @X-SOLDIER...

Whom is the Scarlet Blossom right at the entrance of the Site of Grace leading to Malenia? The one where you find the Traveler's set?
 
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