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Deleted member 13557
Guest
There's something I forgot to mention.
Yeah, one moment he's seemingly Shinra's biggest advocate, and the next he's on about vengeance.
Yeah, one moment he's seemingly Shinra's biggest advocate, and the next he's on about vengeance.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Well, Lazard's emails hold the key. The following emphasis is mine.
Given the recurring themes and curious word choice he uses, it becomes quite clear that Lazard is in reality... A bastard son of President Shinra.
In fact, he's one of many.
Email 1 said:
Email 2 said:
Email 3 said:
Given the recurring themes and curious word choice he uses, it becomes quite clear that Lazard is in reality... A bastard son of President Shinra.
In fact, he's one of many.
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Deleted member 13557
Guest
Yeah, I definitely remember his choice of words sticking out. Paticularly the use of "distortions"
The Japanese version of "Email 2" that Mako posted hints even more blatantly on the topic of illegitimate children. The row in bold was not translated for the English game.
English mail again but now with the discarded JP row translated and inserted:
ソルジャーの皆さん、日々の任務ご苦労さまです。
空中に浮かぶ都市、ミッドガルのプレートの陰に
スラムという地上の集落が存在します。
これもまた、神羅の『ゆがみ』を象徴しています。
特に、スラムでは多数の子供がギャング化して
過酷な生活を強いられていると聞きます。
出生に関する社長のウワサも耳にします。
この『ゆがみ』を放置することは今後の神羅の
発展に大きく影を落とすことになるでしょう。
せめて、我々ソルジャーだけでも、このような
『ゆがみ』に対処していきたいと考えます。
English mail again but now with the discarded JP row translated and inserted:
SOLDIER members, I thank you for your daily hard work.
On the ground, beneath our aerial city of Midgar
and in the shadow of its plates, lie the slums.
They also symbolize one of Shinra’s "distortions."
There are reports of children forming gangs in the
harsh environment they call home.
You may also have heard of a rumor regarding a birth connected with the President.
To look away from this will surely cast a
large shadow on Shinra’s future growth.
It is my hope that we members of SOLDIER
can rise up to address this "distortion."
On the same topic, you might also be interested in checking out the Crisis Core Version Guide to see how the experience changed between regions. For example the scene where Aerith receives the pink ribbon is voiced in the English versions but goes unvoiced in the JP release.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
There's a lot of optional and intrigue in Crisis Core, and it's surprisingly hidden over the course of the game. It's one of those RPGs where multiple playthroughs and tracking NPCs dialogue further elucidates and reveals interesting tidbits of information about the story and world as a whole.
Like, the Wutai spy infiltration of Midgar, the researcher who was acquainted with Ifalna, and the Investigative Journalist with a bone to pick with Shinra. Little things like that which show how interesting things were at the time leading up to the OG.
...Even that asshole Joe and his Invincible Teioh fucking gets a mention.
Like, the Wutai spy infiltration of Midgar, the researcher who was acquainted with Ifalna, and the Investigative Journalist with a bone to pick with Shinra. Little things like that which show how interesting things were at the time leading up to the OG.
...Even that asshole Joe and his Invincible Teioh fucking gets a mention.
- AKA
- The Engineer
It's really interesting what different people see in different characters.
Cloud to me is... just another semi-anti-hero with mental issues... which are... really common in 90's anime/manga. And Cloud himself is very... sparse... as a character. Once you strip away the "layers" of his fake persona, you don't get to find out too much about the "real" Cloud. He was a kid from a country town who tried out for the military and failed to get in where he wanted too. We know he cares a ton about the girl he fancied as kid, but neither of them made any real connection until they were adults and had been through a bunch of shared trauma. And most of the real "meat" of that relationship happens off-screen after the OG.
I think the most revealing speech Cloud ever gives about how he himself really thinks is his last one on the Highwind where he flat out admits no one in AVALANCHe *actually* wants to "save the world" for the sake of "saving the world". What they really want to save are the people they care about and that is okay. It's how and why he defeats Sephiroth in the end. And that's... heh... that's selfish anime hero logic 101.
That isn't to say Cloud isn't a well-written character by any means, he's fantastic. It does mean he doesn't stand out all that much when compared with... a lot of other media of the same era as FF7.
Zack is a lot more interesting because he's not an anti-hero. Or rather that he's a hero that is played completely straight in a setting that bleeds 90's anime tropes. And non-anti-heroes in that kind of stetting don't stay "non-anti" for very long. And yet Zack does. Even more amazing, Zack inspires other people to try to reach for what he has in an otherwise very bleak setting. And I'm... a lot more impressed that he manages to hold onto his ideals than I have ever been impressed with what Cloud does.
Defeating that one guy who killed people you cared about (and save the world along the way) is... pretty normal. Causing a bunch of people who never thought they could be heroes (or are doubting that they were heroes) to realize that they can be heroes is... a lot more difficult. And Zack managed to do that throughout various Shinra departments...
Cloud to me is... just another semi-anti-hero with mental issues... which are... really common in 90's anime/manga. And Cloud himself is very... sparse... as a character. Once you strip away the "layers" of his fake persona, you don't get to find out too much about the "real" Cloud. He was a kid from a country town who tried out for the military and failed to get in where he wanted too. We know he cares a ton about the girl he fancied as kid, but neither of them made any real connection until they were adults and had been through a bunch of shared trauma. And most of the real "meat" of that relationship happens off-screen after the OG.
I think the most revealing speech Cloud ever gives about how he himself really thinks is his last one on the Highwind where he flat out admits no one in AVALANCHe *actually* wants to "save the world" for the sake of "saving the world". What they really want to save are the people they care about and that is okay. It's how and why he defeats Sephiroth in the end. And that's... heh... that's selfish anime hero logic 101.
That isn't to say Cloud isn't a well-written character by any means, he's fantastic. It does mean he doesn't stand out all that much when compared with... a lot of other media of the same era as FF7.
Zack is a lot more interesting because he's not an anti-hero. Or rather that he's a hero that is played completely straight in a setting that bleeds 90's anime tropes. And non-anti-heroes in that kind of stetting don't stay "non-anti" for very long. And yet Zack does. Even more amazing, Zack inspires other people to try to reach for what he has in an otherwise very bleak setting. And I'm... a lot more impressed that he manages to hold onto his ideals than I have ever been impressed with what Cloud does.
Defeating that one guy who killed people you cared about (and save the world along the way) is... pretty normal. Causing a bunch of people who never thought they could be heroes (or are doubting that they were heroes) to realize that they can be heroes is... a lot more difficult. And Zack managed to do that throughout various Shinra departments...
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Cloud, Sephiroth and numerous other FFVII characters may not stand out as much contemporarily in media, but what they all carry is the distinction of being at the top of their archetypes, thanks to being one of the firsts. So while they may not be unique by any means and may even seem like "just another of X" (like Cloud, a spiky haired anime protag with a huge sword) that's really thanks to them setting up the path of their distinctive genres.
I know for myself, if I didn't grow up in the 90s playing FFVII as my first FF and also getting into anime at around the same time, I probably wouldn't be as attached to the game at large. However, it worked out that way and it all sort of branches out that way.
Zack is uniquely interesting to me because he is an interesting and well-done traditional hero in an amoral and non-traditional world/story. Zack's heroism, good nature and kindness is ironically, punished and the root of most of his suffering. He's like a happy JRPG hero (like Sora) trapped in a cruel, gritty fictional world. The subversion creates numerous tragic outcomes.
Zack's pride and loyalty to SOLDIER and Shinra leads him to eventually getting experimented on for four years and then killed.
Zack's heroism and kindness leads to him diverting from his true mission of getting away from Shinra, choosing to try and save Genesis. He succeeds but that was vital time he lost. He carries Cloud around the globe, protecting him. His loyalty to his best friend and adherence to heroic ideals leads to him going down in a hail of gunfire. He protects Cloud and allows him to pick up the sword to be a hero at the cost of his life.
Zack's hopes and dreams are given to Cloud, and in a sick twist of fate, Cloud forgets him due to the experiments done to him. Thankfully he remembers, but for awhile, Zack is lost to those close to him. No one knows what happened to him and where he is. His parents don't even know his fate, to this day.
Zack is ultimately a dream. A dream of a hero which only exists now in the past because the world of FFVII fucking destroyed him. He couldn't live and fulfill his dream but it passed on and inspired those who could carry it out, like Cloud. He passed that legacy on and that's the only proof of existence that remains. Which speaks to how the world of FFVII is, it's cruel, harsh and unforgiving. But at the very least, Zack didn't remain forgotten.
I know for myself, if I didn't grow up in the 90s playing FFVII as my first FF and also getting into anime at around the same time, I probably wouldn't be as attached to the game at large. However, it worked out that way and it all sort of branches out that way.
Zack is uniquely interesting to me because he is an interesting and well-done traditional hero in an amoral and non-traditional world/story. Zack's heroism, good nature and kindness is ironically, punished and the root of most of his suffering. He's like a happy JRPG hero (like Sora) trapped in a cruel, gritty fictional world. The subversion creates numerous tragic outcomes.
Zack's pride and loyalty to SOLDIER and Shinra leads him to eventually getting experimented on for four years and then killed.
Zack's heroism and kindness leads to him diverting from his true mission of getting away from Shinra, choosing to try and save Genesis. He succeeds but that was vital time he lost. He carries Cloud around the globe, protecting him. His loyalty to his best friend and adherence to heroic ideals leads to him going down in a hail of gunfire. He protects Cloud and allows him to pick up the sword to be a hero at the cost of his life.
Zack's hopes and dreams are given to Cloud, and in a sick twist of fate, Cloud forgets him due to the experiments done to him. Thankfully he remembers, but for awhile, Zack is lost to those close to him. No one knows what happened to him and where he is. His parents don't even know his fate, to this day.
Zack is ultimately a dream. A dream of a hero which only exists now in the past because the world of FFVII fucking destroyed him. He couldn't live and fulfill his dream but it passed on and inspired those who could carry it out, like Cloud. He passed that legacy on and that's the only proof of existence that remains. Which speaks to how the world of FFVII is, it's cruel, harsh and unforgiving. But at the very least, Zack didn't remain forgotten.
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D
Deleted member 13557
Guest
I just thought, the scenes with Genesis made me realise why Cid would've slept through Loveless
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Well what you discover in Crisis Core (I forgot what NPC explained it) is that the play Cid sees in Midgar in FFVII, is a unique spin-off production that tells the story of Loveless from the perspective of the woman character, and it focuses on the personal love with one of the heroes and how she deals with the conflict between the two. It's modernized instead of just a traditional epic poem.
Which goes to show Genesis was quite the stuffy literature buff along with being obsessive.
Which goes to show Genesis was quite the stuffy literature buff along with being obsessive.
I was impressed, however, that the verses, when you lose the flowery prose, actually do follow the story Cid describes on the Highwind. Which is kinda cool. It would have been extremely easy to just make something new, only nerds like us would have noticed.
Genesis said:
Cid said:
- AKA
- TresDias
How does that laugh come out? "Gya haa ha" or a more traditional "fufufu"?
- AKA
- The Engineer
Except... they didn't set-up their genre... at least... not in general Japanese manga/anime. In Western Gaming, for sure... But in Japan??? The early 90's were filled with characters like Cloud and Sephrioth...
Particularly Guts and Griffith from Berserk. If they aren't the arch-typical characters that Cloud and Sephrioth are based off of... heh... They pre-date FFVII by seven years. And if Cloud and Sephiroth's dynamic isn't a variation of Guts and Griffith's dynamic... well... that's one hell of a coincidence... Look down a list of early 90's manga/anime (even as far back as the late 80's with Akira) and you just see all the groundwork being made for FFVII to even be a thing as a setting.
FFVII just brought a bunch of anime tropes into Western Gaming for the first time. And got the Western Audience to really like them and want more games with those tropes.
- AKA
- TresDias
I feel like the spirit of Mako's point holds up, though. The context of your familiarity with the tropes the game taps is such that Cloud and Sephiroth made less of an impression on you, but for a great many people, FFVII was their introduction to those tropes -- e.g. they found their way to "Berserk" from FFVII rather than the other way round.
- AKA
- The Engineer
This is a good observation.
I only got into FF after reading/watching a bunch of manga/anime... and then I went looking for games in the same kind of genres I like reading. And FF as a series is kinda at the top of the pack. It definetly wasn't my introduction to anime/manga...
- AKA
- Ody
The reason I read stuff like Berserk and Akira, and also Gunnm was because I wanted to see more stuff similar to FF7. FF7 wasn't the progenitor of the tropes it uses, but it certainly is a gateway to the media that influenced it since in many countries it reached a wider audience than those movies and manga ever did.
It's a little bit insane to think that Berserk started seven years before FF7 came out, and continued publication to the point where FF7 was remade. It'll probably still be going after the remake series ends, too. Poor Miura
It's a little bit insane to think that Berserk started seven years before FF7 came out, and continued publication to the point where FF7 was remade. It'll probably still be going after the remake series ends, too. Poor Miura
To me, intellectually I sort of know why Cloud is the better protagonist, I understand that he's more complicated, but in my heart I just love Zack more.
It might have something to do with not seeing the real Cloud for 90% of FFVII. For most of FFVII, Clouds a bit of a douche, sure, we know it's not his fault (and honestly, it's not even as bad as me and many others imagine it), but it's still what I'm stuck with.
And even knowing this, I am still stuck playing as "a puppet" to some extent, while I sympathize on an emotional level with boyhood Cloud and his guilt, fear of failure, etc. None of that is something he seems to be actively going through in the original game.
He has those issues yeah, but the point is that he's repressing those issues underneath a Soldier persona, while that's great storytelling, it does mean I don't actively see him struggle with those issues. The issues aren't revealed until the lifestream sequence, but that's also the point where those issues are mostly resolved (if we don't count AC for a second).
The thing we actually see Cloud struggling with is his identity crisis, which is interesting, but is experienced by us as mostly an actual tangible issue, not an internal issue. We don't really see Cloud struggling internally with actual character flaws, those underlie the fake identity, yes, but he's repressed them, he's unaware of them, or at least pretending to be. So it's presented as an actual external thread, something Sephiroth is doing to him, rather than an internal one, which is where characters get their humanity from.
So I, like Aerith, don't really know Cloud, which is why I find it hard to love him, because I don't see him for the first part, and by the times we get him back there is no longer any time, or need, to really watch him work through it.
I think I WOULD have liked Cloud more than Zack, if I had had an entire game of him during, and post, lifestream, where I actually see him grow the way I saw Zack grow.
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Deleted member 13557
Guest
It's really weird, but I've pinned it down as "Gya Kya Fu"