Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this

[Noble0ne]

Original FF7 game Spoilers are in post!!!!

This post in regards to race and diversity is Intending for a positive or negative critique of the Final fantasy 7 related works. As well as speculative appreciation or dismay on the future handling of Final Fantasy 7 & related works in the now 2020 atmosphere. (In Short... Remake speculation!!!)

That includes for example, the FF7 Original game, to the AC movie, to books, to CC with zack, DC, to now FF7R. Plus, Square-Enix development speculation as a whole with FF7

I am posting for constructive dialogue, not to troll, or bait, or condemn any group nor entity. I don't mind comments that disagree with me or those that agree. I don't mind personal opinions or speculation. I Don't mind being corrected or checked or told my opinion is just opinion. I think polite tactful informed talk about race is not offensive, irrelevant, inflammatory, disruptive, or antagonizing for anyone. I think it may possibly be controversial or bothersome if you got insecurity, but race exists, they all awesome, it's just skin tone. so I feel no shame talking about it. Very often people like myself are proud to cheer for strong story protagonists or antagonist that look like themselves. For example, I consider myself to be Blackity black black Africa black and feel happy Barrets Character design in the FF7 series is present at all... Partially because the developers did not have to make him the dark skin bad ass of an overall design they did.

That all said, I'm going to jump into my personal opinion honest 'critique' & 'speculation'. Feel free to check me or share your own thoughts.

Ehem*...

I'd like to see comments on the absence of black folk in the original ff7; with the chance for the remake to do things differently. (I know they don't have too)

Did Shinra Co. Kill them all???.. (z°~°)7...uhh
Kidding! but they did drop a city plate on the sector 7 slums... Don't take my shots at Shinra personally.

Anyhoo... Except for Barret, the Buff-Gym-Wig guy, and a Green/Yellow hat wearing NorthCorel-Tent Girl... I did not find any others as dark as Barret. This made Barret stick out like a sore thumb as 1 of the 3 approachable black people on a planet Gaia. & No, I'm not including the three black men in the cut scene for the honey bee inn where they mob you then you black out, since you can't speak to them or find them later. And No I'm not including the many Tan Npc's all over that are not as dark as Barret, because they strike me more as darker italianios, islanders, Hispanics, middle eastern ppl or such; Or at least they do far more than they would strike me as clearly black. Opinion base as it may be, I am not the only person that got these feels. A large enough diaspora of people sees things that I do and do not need to be silenced when pointing it out.

Rant Continuing, The OG felt *to me* like for social marketing and acceptance, a call was made for Barret's overall home town and adopted daughter to be lighter in complexion. I legit felt dude straight got treated as the single token black friend with no real hometown; this further made me wonder if Marlene was deemed less lovable & marketable if she was a black adopted daughter running around Tifa's bar. This point heightened precisely to me with the added fact I have not forgotten Barret script design, abandons Marlene in Advent Children.

...and while I'm fair opinion ranting... Honestly if this game was my idea and I made the original game (which I did not), I think it would have been dope if Aeris, her original Mama, & other Cetra were black; Just to relate to "Ancient" civilization in the real world coming out of Africa, and to give black-girl-fans a champion on the squad to root for. ( I get that a fantasy game on Gaia does not have to relate to the real world. And it's a Japanese 90's fantasy game made with western apeal lacking polical tact of today's world).

Yeah, I still can feel burning angry eyes while typing this:

*SJWs ruin all the fun they say...* (well, the remake writers seem to be considering a lot tho. And the is a difference between war rampaging just to war and constructive convo.)

*It's a Japanese fantasy world, so there no Africa & they didn't want Melanin origins, deal with it they say...* (\*black tears\*)

*Tifa is Cloud's childhood friend, a motive to join solder, & life-stream poison mental-bust caretaker, so she more plot-important they say...*

*Aeris is the last Cetra & needed for holy so even in death, she is more plot-important they say...*

*Barret and the rest of the side chars outside the love triangle do not push the plot forward after Midgar they say...*

(Well, how/why the Avalance leader & first teammate, w/ a vendetta to stop the planetwritersnging, fade hard in writters plot significance, he legit losses his lead then gets passed over for leader even when Cloud is not in the party by Tifa the nd then Cid. Maybe that was equal sharing lead approach, but it felt a bit like shading Barrets story arch to me)

(ff7R writers now have a chance to explore all shallow chars; Yuffie=wutian all ninja homeland, Cid=curse happy pilot, Vicent=backstory extra, RedX=backstory pet)

(Realy though, Barret is introduced with more significance than the rest shallow throw-away cast. So why he gets such poor story love later is beyond me)

okay, relax... chill them Sephiroth sword wilding eyes; don't hold on to your hatred... No shade to the original game its a masterpiece beginning to end, my favorite game in fact. I admit I am wishing for too much, nobody changing the beloved wifu's complexion. just maybe a little shade is fun for me to think about.

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I appreciate you all taking time to comment

I do not think the game was racist?

 

[Theozilla]

I’m a little confused, are you asking what the Doylistic reasons are regarding the lack of racial diversity, particularly in regards to black characters, in the OG FFVII? Because the explanation for that is basically the same answer for most JRPGs (i.e. Japan has just as much an issue as the West does with the “light skinned as default” mentality in fantasy/sci-fi, etc.).

Or are you already aware of the reasons, and are just putting your thoughts out for discussion?

 

[LNK]

I'm about to leave work, so I don't have time to comment on everything you said, but I agree with you about the lack of black characters.
Also your idea of the missed opportunity for the Cetra. Even if they kept Aerith with the same skin tone, if they show scenes of her ancestors in the remake, they could make them black. Someone's skin color has never mattered to me, but I'm also apart of the majority in the US. I can see why others would want more representation. Especially some that doesn't put them into a specific box all the time.

 

[Noble0ne]

I’m a little confused, are you asking what the Doylistic reasons are regarding the lack of racial diversity, particularly in regards to black characters, in the OG FFVII? Because the explanation for that is basically the same answer for most JRPGs (i.e. Japan has just as much an issue as the West does with the “light skinned as default” mentality in fantasy/sci-fi, etc.).

Or are you already aware of the reasons, and are just putting your thoughts out for discussion?

Putting thoughts out for discussion... I'm perfectly okay with the original game. And think the was no intentional shade directed at any other community. I'm focusing more on the speculation that the remake might take into consideration like do you think barrels home town of Corel will be more diverse. Or nee diversity ideas in general like do you think wutia will have a whole new feel when it's presented more than just a ninja town

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You raise a lot of interesting points.

I am guessing you're American. Americans have a tendency to interpret all products from other cultures through the lens of their own culture and then wonder why those products aren't addressing American cultural issues.

The number of black people in FFVII is probably a fair representation of the overall percentage of black people in the Japanese population.

The other thing is this. None of the people in FFVII represent "races" from our earth. They have different skin tones, yes, but absolutely nothing in the game suggests that people from different parts of their planet look physically different from each other or even speak different languages. Cloud, Tifa, Cid, Reno, etc... aren't white Americans. They're not Caucasian. If they're anything, they're Japanese. Westerners only think they are meant to represent white people because white westerners interpret any generic human being as being white, just as Japanese people interpret any generic human being as Japanese.

None of the characters in FFVII are racist or have problems with race. I don't know if they're going to change this in the Remake, but in the OG nobody ever addresses an even remotely race-based comment towards another member of the cast. Wutai is different, yes, but possibly different in the way that China was different to Japan, or France to Germany, in WWII. In other words, not a different race, but a different state and a different culture.

I mean if you want to introduce a discourse on race into an analysis of FFVII, it's possible I guess, but it wasn't designed by Americans or for Americans and it isn't about Americans, so ultimately it seems a bit like complaining that Shakespeare didn't make Romeo or Juliet black. I mean, he did give us Othello. The fact that the game gives us any black characters at all, let alone Barret (a main protagonist and a very well developed character) and Rude (a boss), is, I think, pretty admirable for a Japanese game created in the previous century.

In short, I would argue that race as a concept just doesn't exist in their world, and I like that. It's not as if they don't have enough problems already.

That said, I expect we will see much more diversity of skin tone in the Remake. This game is a global phenomenon now.

 

[Noble0ne]

I'm about to leave work, so I don't have time to comment on everything you said, but I agree with you about the lack of black characters.
Also your idea of the missed opportunity for the Cetra. Even if they kept Aerith with the same skin tone, if they show scenes of her ancestors in the remake, they could make them black. Someone's skin color has never mattered to me, but I'm also apart of the majority in the US. I can see why others would want more representation. Especially some that doesn't put them into a specific box all the time.

Really appreciate your comment... Felt so much hate nerves writing that one... Since fantasy worlds Dont need to relate to real world and all... People love Aries and rightful so. Her design as is is awesome as is. Nice idea of even if they just showed some of her ancestors.

 

[Theozilla]

Well, since the world, especially entertainment/media markets/industries including video game development has gotten more international in make up and awareness, I can only hope that the FFVII Remake will be more racially diverse, even if it’s just for background/supporting characters.
I suppose FFXV and FFXIV would be the best indicators for what to expect the various populaces and minor/supporting characters in the Remake to resemble.

 

[Rydeen]

I don't think the Cetra thing could work since Black people still exist in FFVII. Although they already drew an obvious analogy between American corporate imperialism (Shinra) vs Eastern or Indigenous cultures (Wutai), Corel itself, with its high concentration of Black people and desert terrain, could be a parallel to Africa and how it has been ruthlessly exploited by Europe/America. Also, since Barret is black, people could mistakenly draw the conclusion that he is a Cetra. Thirdly, in Japan, mystical types are usually depicted as Indian-looking, so that may be a better option. Then again, that's kind of a stereotype. As a last point, American race relations are very different from the rest of the world, especially as it pertains to Black people. Every country has its own set of complex relations, many of them more heavily based on culture than race (America is obsessed with skin color by comparison), so I don't think we should dig too deep into race beyond aesthetic representation. Culture is more pertinent here. Shinra imposing on local cultures is obvious.

A black Marlene would be interesting. In the original, we knew that there had to be a story behind Marlene since she didn't look like Barret, provoking curiosity. Making her black would eliminate that curiousity, but it would increase the surprise factor of Barret's backstory for new players.

Edit: Damn, I got ninja'd by so many people.

 

[Noble0ne]

You raise a lot of interesting points.

I am guessing you're American.


--------------

I really appreciate your constructive educative response.

To be fair, I think I've seen a lot of video's & articles that claim square soft intentionally added more western appeal to this game to try brand RPG's to a wider audience outside of Japan. Since before this game other markets didn't buy into jrpg's... and it worked for the major with the PlayStation deal they broke away from Nintendo with... Cuasing a rift with Nintendo for years. (Could be wrong... The internet has all kinds of false info)

But, Yep I'm American but also I'm Nigerian too. lived in Nigeria years and lived in Pierto Rico years and lived in England and have traveled all over... So in my defense everywhere gots it's bais issues and I'm really the typical nationalist stereo type.

 

[Noble0ne]

Didn't meant to add my commmet to you quote

 

[Noble0ne]

Well, since the world, especially entertainment/media markets/industries including video game development has gotten more international in make up and awareness, I can only hope that the FFVII Remake will be more racially diverse, even if it’s just for background/supporting characters.
I suppose FFXV and FFXIV would be the best indicators for what to expect the various populaces and minor/supporting characters in the Remake to resemble.

Thank you for you reply. I'm sitting right Looking forward to what they do

 

[Theozilla]

I don’t think the Cetra are/were meant to be analogous to any specific real world racial/ethnic group, they can be represented just as diversely as the rest of the world population I believe.
But that’s largely irrelevant anyways, as any depiction of the Cetra (besides Aerith) would have to relegated to flashbacks/books/ruins, etc.

 

[Noble0ne]

I don't think the Cetra thing could work since Black people still exist in FFVII. Although they already drew an obvious analogy between American corporate imperialism (Shinra) vs Eastern or Indigenous cultures (Wutai), Corel itself, with its high concentration of Black people and desert terrain, could be a parallel to Africa and how it has been ruthlessly exploited by Europe/America. Also, since Barret is black, people could mistakenly draw the conclusion that he is a Cetra. Thirdly, in Japan, mystical types are usually depicted as Indian-looking, so that may be a better option. Then again, that's kind of a stereotype. As a last point, American race relations are very different from the rest of the world, especially as it pertains to Black people. Every country has its own set of complex relations, many of them more heavily based on culture than race (America is obsessed with skin color by comparison), so I don't think we should dig too deep into race beyond aesthetic representation. Culture is more pertinent here. Shinra imposing on local cultures is obvious.

A black Marlene would be interesting. In the original, we knew that there had to be a story behind Marlene since she didn't look like Barret, provoking curiosity. Making her black would eliminate that curiousity, but it would increase the surprise factor of Barret's backstory for new players.

Edit: Damn, I got ninja'd by so many people.

Very constructive post. I'm liking this forum. I'll take your word for it. I by no means am a absolute authority on thought process. Your ways mentioned here could very well be a more proper approach. Thank you for sharing

 

[Rydeen]

I don’t think the Cetra are/were meant to be analogous to any specific real world racial/ethnic group, they can be represented just as diversely as the rest of the world population I believe.
But that’s largely irrelevant anyways, as any depiction of the Cetra (besides Aerith) would have to relegated to flashbacks/books/ruins, etc.

As I think about it... Perhaps it would be better to allow players to continue to visualize the Cetra. Flashbacks would dissolve the mystique. I hope they don't feel that they should elucidate everything about the world/characters.

 

[Noble0ne]

I don’t think the Cetra are/were meant to be analogous to any specific real world racial/ethnic group, they can be represented just as diversely as the rest of the world population I believe.
But that’s largely irrelevant anyways, as any depiction of the Cetra (besides Aerith) would have to relegated to flashbacks/books/ruins, etc.

Thanks for your comment.
Honestly, got that vibe too ... It's probably why it won't change either...


{T-T ) I still like my idea tho... *sigh* some dreams stay dreams.

 

[Theozilla]

That reminds me, I wonder how the Remake will depict the spiritual remnants of the Cetra that inhabit the Temple of the Ancients. Will they still be these little bearded dudes?

 

[Noble0ne]

As I think about it... Perhaps it would be better to allow players to continue to visualize the Cetra. Flashbacks would dissolve the mystique. I hope they don't feel that they should elucidate everything about the world/characters.

Good points. A lot goes into making a masterpiece... Including leaving some things to the imagination at time.... Heck I couldn't speculate the way I am if the had everything to the T set in stone. ?

 

[Theozilla]

Thanks for your comment.
Honestly, got that vibe too ... It's probably why it won't change either...


{T-T ) I still like my idea tho... *sigh* some dreams stay dreams.

I mean, just because the Cetra have no specific race doesn’t mean black Cetra can’t appear in any hypothetical flashbacks/in-game art. Same with Cetra of any other analogies race like south Asian or indigenous American, etc.

 

[Noble0ne]

That reminds me, I wonder how the Remake will depict the spiritual remnants of the Cetra that inhabit the Temple of the Ancients. Will they still be these little bearded dudes?
View attachment 4916View attachment 4917View attachment 4918

Wow them guys really skipped my mind as well... Forgot about them... Oooooo really looking forward to that too

 

[Noble0ne]

I mean, just because the Cetra have no specific race doesn’t mean black Cetra can’t appear in any hypothetical flashbacks/in-game art. Same with Cetra of any other analogies race like south Asian or indigenous American, etc.

The dream is back alive ?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, what would be really cool is if the Cetra were shown to have all skin tones. They're not meant to be a different race, after all, or (or, god forbid, a different species); regular humans and Cetra all had the same ancestors, but then the Cetra carried on wandering like Abel while regular humans settled down in one place like Cain.

What I'd personally like to see is all different skin tones and faces all mixed up with no suggestion that this has any significant in their culture. But then I'm the person who really likes films and plays where a black mum and a chinese dad have an indian kid and nobody acts like this is anything but normal.

 

[looneymoon]

I mean, Japan doesn't exactly have the greatest track record with representing black people in their media. Especially in the 90s, a lot of it comes directly from American pop culture stereotypes. FF7's representation of Barret seems to be a deliberate way of mimicking 80s actions movies. He's a caricature of a caricature in a sense.

I am guessing when they made the original game, they had an asset editor where you could create a variety of NPCs. Barret was created with intention, but the NPCs were probably a bit more haphazard.

Not to be TOO presumptuous, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if a bunch of Japanese developers in the early 90s thought the darker toned NPCs just looked weird? and therefore just didn't really think to make more, or notice that there weren't that many in the final product.

 

[Noble0ne]

Yes, what would be really cool is if the Cetra were shown to have all skin tones. They're not meant to be a different race, after all, or (or, god forbid, a different species); regular humans and Cetra all had the same ancestors, but then the Cetra carried on wandering like Abel while regular humans settled down in one place like Cain.

What I'd personally like to see is all different skin tones and faces all mixed up with no suggestion that this has any significant in their culture. But then I'm the person who really likes films and plays where a black mum and a chinese dad have an indian kid and nobody acts like this is anything but normal.

I appreciate your outlook. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Noble0ne]

I mean, Japan doesn't exactly have the greatest track record with representing black people in their media. Especially in the 90s, a lot of it comes directly from American pop culture stereotypes. FF7's representation of Barret seems to be a deliberate way of mimicking 80s actions movies. He's a caricature of a caricature in a sense.

I am guessing when they made the original game, they had an asset editor where you could create a variety of NPCs. Barret was created with intention, but the NPCs were probably a bit more haphazard.

Not to be TOO presumptuous, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if a bunch of Japanese developers in the early 90s thought the darker toned NPCs just looked weird? and therefore just didn't really think to make more, or notice that there weren't that many in the final product.

I tend to look at barred as a parody of mr. T myself. Yet to many people surprise I dont find that offensive. If you think about every culture has really cool people that get parodied and copied. Brue lee gots more fire characters madeafter him than anyone lol. I see in a way as respect when I look at it that way

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm sure it was intended as respect.