Ff7 Racism & Ethnicity: if the effects of unintentional racial nuances or diversity appreciation offends you, dont read this
- Thread starter Noble0ne
- Start date
Theozilla
Kaiju Member
IIRC the artist/fanartist Crimson Sun is one of the more well known FFVII fans who’s a fan of the “Vincent is Sephiroth’s biological father” headcanon/AU interpretation. They are also big fans of Hojo in general too.
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
The game is out... the world is burning... and despite the game being great ...
the ff7r Cetra speculation sure didn't end up being little dark skin bearded ppl with pointy hats... nope, and not even diversified.
(great timing to comment I know)
anyhoo, I noted The Cetra looked to be all beautiful fine white people in Aztec'ish old civilization vibe clothing that may or may not be from Spira. In my opinion, this was not the best choice, among other ethnicity choices like making the school teacher end up being a nighttime honeybee dancer as a side story bonus
I'm glad Square Enix decided at this time to stand with the black lives matter movement. However in this historical day in age, I'm sure some who read this can honestly grasp why white only product elements from a diversely staffed company, can stand out or seem like over intentionally catering the status quo for some demographics (whether they intended it to or not. Japanese game or not.) I don't think there is any way square Enix could have missed considering what them peoples skin tone looked like as a collective... just no way
On earth, the world's first civilizations were all predominantly Black. vastly all dark skin people first out of Africa and then well after they spread to other areas outside of Africa. evolution due to weather or vitamin intake does not change this. (google is your friend fact check on your own)
The argument that Gaia is not earth so creators can fantasize their art how they choose without perceived consequence doesn't necessarily fly. not being earth does not circumvent the fact that this game and most square games have a vast amount of game design inspired by the earth and cultures of humanity. Therefore, picking, and choosing what to show or who to cater to results in statements being made about how the company desires to see the world. And all Asian people are not even all light-skinned today!? the margin over time has definitely shifted and many cultures have definitely developed separate but rep all your own people if that's that approach... because all your people matter. art creations can tell a tale of the world in how you want to see it.
I get, art does not have to be based on reality, nor does it have to look how I want it. but It baffles me how offended people become if I were to say all humanity has the same pigment in our skin and we all evolved from 1 overall original darker skin tone, so representing our shared history should not be offensive nor distasteful... unless of course, you don't want that shared history, in that case, I can see how a hard rejection of all of us all being tied together in imagery would be the desired taste.
the ff7r Cetra speculation sure didn't end up being little dark skin bearded ppl with pointy hats... nope, and not even diversified.
(great timing to comment I know)
anyhoo, I noted The Cetra looked to be all beautiful fine white people in Aztec'ish old civilization vibe clothing that may or may not be from Spira. In my opinion, this was not the best choice, among other ethnicity choices like making the school teacher end up being a nighttime honeybee dancer as a side story bonus
I'm glad Square Enix decided at this time to stand with the black lives matter movement. However in this historical day in age, I'm sure some who read this can honestly grasp why white only product elements from a diversely staffed company, can stand out or seem like over intentionally catering the status quo for some demographics (whether they intended it to or not. Japanese game or not.) I don't think there is any way square Enix could have missed considering what them peoples skin tone looked like as a collective... just no way
On earth, the world's first civilizations were all predominantly Black. vastly all dark skin people first out of Africa and then well after they spread to other areas outside of Africa. evolution due to weather or vitamin intake does not change this. (google is your friend fact check on your own)
The argument that Gaia is not earth so creators can fantasize their art how they choose without perceived consequence doesn't necessarily fly. not being earth does not circumvent the fact that this game and most square games have a vast amount of game design inspired by the earth and cultures of humanity. Therefore, picking, and choosing what to show or who to cater to results in statements being made about how the company desires to see the world. And all Asian people are not even all light-skinned today!? the margin over time has definitely shifted and many cultures have definitely developed separate but rep all your own people if that's that approach... because all your people matter. art creations can tell a tale of the world in how you want to see it.
I get, art does not have to be based on reality, nor does it have to look how I want it. but It baffles me how offended people become if I were to say all humanity has the same pigment in our skin and we all evolved from 1 overall original darker skin tone, so representing our shared history should not be offensive nor distasteful... unless of course, you don't want that shared history, in that case, I can see how a hard rejection of all of us all being tied together in imagery would be the desired taste.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
....Why are you fixated on the Cetra and not the actual people and characters demonstrated in the entire game, who impact the actual story?
Why are you looking at a Shinra Corporation Propaganda piece for some sort of accurate, historic look of the demographic consistency and make up of a long dead civilization that has no direct observational reference, save for it's last descendant, in the actual story?
Nevermind the diversity of the cast, present population of the world/Midgar, etc etc.. You're worried about the damn Cetra in a hologram movie, who don't even exist anymore?
Why are you looking at a Shinra Corporation Propaganda piece for some sort of accurate, historic look of the demographic consistency and make up of a long dead civilization that has no direct observational reference, save for it's last descendant, in the actual story?
Nevermind the diversity of the cast, present population of the world/Midgar, etc etc.. You're worried about the damn Cetra in a hologram movie, who don't even exist anymore?
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
It's less of fixation and more so a thing that I was predisposed to have cross my mind that I refrained from saying in other threads. also, I currently got neir automata and other square games on my mind, & ff7r in its entirety is a different look compared to most square games so, me thinking about square as a whole doesn't help to well when addressing ff7r specifically.*
If you are simply asking why I am ignoring the lager parts of the game where they deserve credit for the quality improvement, then note that a no, I'm not discrediting the entire game, but rather this single encapsulated element was something I was looking for before the game launched and have long since had on my mind. I had excitement in this very thread in anticipation of how they would handle the ancients. I posted my comment here because I discussed the Cetra here prior to the game release.
it's possible that my way of looking for origin stories in everything as needing to be important, is not a fair standard. & it's possible my view is just wrong. I can concede that none of my preferences are by force the only way to see things. Also, I will say that the world of NPC's was amazingly better this go around in ff7r overall. I tend to criticize separate from giving praise. some people want Tifa to have bigger boobs some people want greater historical nuance and cultural depiction. xD
Maybe it is just as you say, & just Shinra having bad PR and I can still speculate that there will be something different and more diverse in the temple of the ancients!.
If you are simply asking why I am ignoring the lager parts of the game where they deserve credit for the quality improvement, then note that a no, I'm not discrediting the entire game, but rather this single encapsulated element was something I was looking for before the game launched and have long since had on my mind. I had excitement in this very thread in anticipation of how they would handle the ancients. I posted my comment here because I discussed the Cetra here prior to the game release.
it's possible that my way of looking for origin stories in everything as needing to be important, is not a fair standard. & it's possible my view is just wrong. I can concede that none of my preferences are by force the only way to see things. Also, I will say that the world of NPC's was amazingly better this go around in ff7r overall. I tend to criticize separate from giving praise. some people want Tifa to have bigger boobs some people want greater historical nuance and cultural depiction. xD
Maybe it is just as you say, & just Shinra having bad PR and I can still speculate that there will be something different and more diverse in the temple of the ancients!.
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- AKA
- Rishi
I always thought of the Cetra being more... coded as American-Indigenous, and kinda head-canon'ed them to possibly looking more along the lines of that? Which Cosmo Canyon kinda leant to that too. I doubt that Japanese creators/writers would have that kind of cultural nuance for this to be their first thought in the portrayal of the Cetra. Especially for the sake Western fans looking at it with a Western lens - I don't really expect them to.
Of course there's also the point of how accurately we can trust a ShinRa hologram. It would have been cool to see a more brown-skinned Cetra peoples, so as to set them apart from the largely lighter-toned world of Gaia. Who knows, maybe it's an intentional diagetic portrayal of whitewashing? Like the way Christianity even now holds onto the whitewashed image of Jesus. I'm not sure if that is something they really thought about, but there's enough room to consider that possibility.
Or maybe it's Japan just being Japan. I am not knowledgeable enough of Indigenous Japanese cultures to say how this might inform the design/world building choices. I know they exist - but how they interact with modern Japanese society... I don't have the lived context to say what might be going on there.
Of course there's also the point of how accurately we can trust a ShinRa hologram. It would have been cool to see a more brown-skinned Cetra peoples, so as to set them apart from the largely lighter-toned world of Gaia. Who knows, maybe it's an intentional diagetic portrayal of whitewashing? Like the way Christianity even now holds onto the whitewashed image of Jesus. I'm not sure if that is something they really thought about, but there's enough room to consider that possibility.
Or maybe it's Japan just being Japan. I am not knowledgeable enough of Indigenous Japanese cultures to say how this might inform the design/world building choices. I know they exist - but how they interact with modern Japanese society... I don't have the lived context to say what might be going on there.
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Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
I like the idea of them being portrayed with inspirational ties as the indigenous Americans. despite noticing the clothes, that's not where my mind went to first but I dig it.
honestly, I did figure it could be more of an insinuation of possibly the Cetra being spirans of some sort and that the spirans that came to Gaia just looked that way possibly devoiding any reason for diversity if the original spirans that traveled were all of one ethnicity. still, I think it would have been cool if those guys had more variation too even if not needed... just my preference.
honestly, I did figure it could be more of an insinuation of possibly the Cetra being spirans of some sort and that the spirans that came to Gaia just looked that way possibly devoiding any reason for diversity if the original spirans that traveled were all of one ethnicity. still, I think it would have been cool if those guys had more variation too even if not needed... just my preference.
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Pizzachu
SOLDIER Fan
I thought of the Cetra to lean more towards Native Americans/indigenous Americans too (even though I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but who knows). The idea of the Ancients assimilating with the humans on the planet to the point where only a few "full-blooded" Ancients remain kind of reminds me of what has happened to a lot of Native tribes. That's why Aerith was always so interesting to me because she reminded me of that in a way.
Seeing Life Masks of Native Americans in a museum where that was supposed to be the proof of the existence of a dying race is scary. Downright terrifying.
Seeing Life Masks of Native Americans in a museum where that was supposed to be the proof of the existence of a dying race is scary. Downright terrifying.
Sometimes what you see is not what the creators put into the game, but what you're looking for. Whose codes are you really reading: theirs, or your own? I've said it before and I'll say it again: America's problems are not the world's problems, and to demand that everbody all around the world produce art and cinema, literature and video games, that address American issues is a cultural imperialism as bad in its own way as racism.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
.... Dunno if I'd say it's as bad as racism, but yeah I get your point 
Agreed. It isn't anything like as bad when you consider the lives lost and the potential squandered by racism; it isn't even in the same ball park. But it's as bad when you consider the denial of other people's identities.
Noble0ne
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Noble
"Sometimes what you see is what you're looking for" ill agree with that. I also think it's okay to sometimes take a step back and receive input about things you may not have considered.
My concern here is that I don't consider a normalized standard in any country to mean that everything is truly the best it can be and problem-free or the best bais. I'm constantly warry of how the current system or portrayal might not be the best way because of the experiences I have yes. but last time I was in some other parts of the world, corruption seemed real all over. also, I may be more on edge and warry to consider racial implications due to my American background. but I really don't think unintended impacts or any negative conduct for that matter is exclusive to America or even race. Whether its the clothing & weight portrayal from models & fashion standards, or tactful ethnicity considerations due to race expectations, I think people can judge for themselves if there is a large enough level of threat in a critique. then if the issue in the eyes of a larger group gets to be considered something worth working on. great. or maybe leaving the issue alone is best. or maybe doubling down on it.
I do assume different shades of the same thing exist around the world and people can apply what truth is valid or disregard what is not valid from shared opinions. I also would assume that there are much darker to lighter variations of people in most nations and that some would feel left out if their own community never considered them with representing media as a normalized standard. for example, Bollywood films of India from my understanding had an issue with casting there lightest skinned countrymen only and even deeper governance issues with systematic social classes. my point being when I personally refer to issues my mind isn't always in an American perspective but rather are these issues also a world issue perspective. if any of my critiques are not applicable in any way then the story ends there. but if it is applicable in the slightest then people of the concerning society can take advice that's useable and dump what's not. furthermore, square Enix to me also has gotten much bigger than a typical Japan studio but how I feel and what I assume does not carry much weight unless other people closer to the heart of the issue see the same thing. (if a square game developer came out tomorrow and said your post is something I decided to consider, instantly my logic would look less like a stretch)all in all one thing for sure I'm pro for discussion and pro getting informed.
My concern here is that I don't consider a normalized standard in any country to mean that everything is truly the best it can be and problem-free or the best bais. I'm constantly warry of how the current system or portrayal might not be the best way because of the experiences I have yes. but last time I was in some other parts of the world, corruption seemed real all over. also, I may be more on edge and warry to consider racial implications due to my American background. but I really don't think unintended impacts or any negative conduct for that matter is exclusive to America or even race. Whether its the clothing & weight portrayal from models & fashion standards, or tactful ethnicity considerations due to race expectations, I think people can judge for themselves if there is a large enough level of threat in a critique. then if the issue in the eyes of a larger group gets to be considered something worth working on. great. or maybe leaving the issue alone is best. or maybe doubling down on it.
I do assume different shades of the same thing exist around the world and people can apply what truth is valid or disregard what is not valid from shared opinions. I also would assume that there are much darker to lighter variations of people in most nations and that some would feel left out if their own community never considered them with representing media as a normalized standard. for example, Bollywood films of India from my understanding had an issue with casting there lightest skinned countrymen only and even deeper governance issues with systematic social classes. my point being when I personally refer to issues my mind isn't always in an American perspective but rather are these issues also a world issue perspective. if any of my critiques are not applicable in any way then the story ends there. but if it is applicable in the slightest then people of the concerning society can take advice that's useable and dump what's not. furthermore, square Enix to me also has gotten much bigger than a typical Japan studio but how I feel and what I assume does not carry much weight unless other people closer to the heart of the issue see the same thing. (if a square game developer came out tomorrow and said your post is something I decided to consider, instantly my logic would look less like a stretch)all in all one thing for sure I'm pro for discussion and pro getting informed.
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Oh yes, I agree. The world is full of problems all over the place. What I mean is that when a country that is not the USA looks at its problems through a lens designed by and for the USA, it won't be able to solve its problems, because it's bringing an American analysis and approach to a problem that is not the same either, in its causes or its manifestations, in a society that is not the same.
It irks me, for example, that Canadian kids are up and marching for BLM when they won't stir their butts off the sofa for First Nations issues. Of course we have significant race issues in Canada, no one could deny that, and in that sense a BLM movement is very much needed. But a lot of these kids are just jumping on the bandwagon because it's exciting and dynamic right now and they want to look like Good People. Even that is not necessarily a bad thing if it means they start getting educated about activism and the many issues plaguing the world. But if they think retweeting a few tweets and going on a march is all it takes, then we're not moving forward.
It's just that I have a long history of trying to get Canadian kids to learn about and care about First Nations issues, and trying to persuade the schools I work for to explore service partnerships with First Nation schools, but the kids and the admin would rather go on "service project" trips to Africa, where it's sunny and they can see elephants.
It irks me, for example, that Canadian kids are up and marching for BLM when they won't stir their butts off the sofa for First Nations issues. Of course we have significant race issues in Canada, no one could deny that, and in that sense a BLM movement is very much needed. But a lot of these kids are just jumping on the bandwagon because it's exciting and dynamic right now and they want to look like Good People. Even that is not necessarily a bad thing if it means they start getting educated about activism and the many issues plaguing the world. But if they think retweeting a few tweets and going on a march is all it takes, then we're not moving forward.
It's just that I have a long history of trying to get Canadian kids to learn about and care about First Nations issues, and trying to persuade the schools I work for to explore service partnerships with First Nation schools, but the kids and the admin would rather go on "service project" trips to Africa, where it's sunny and they can see elephants.
Pizzachu
SOLDIER Fan
I don't necessarily think that it's incorrect to view a product with through your own cultural lens as long as one isn't demanding about things (though I have some offensive products come through that had to be changed by localization). I agree with what Lic had said there. At the same time, I don't think that wishing that main Final Fantasy characters having a non-light skin-tone is demanding at all.
When a product is sold by a Japanese company (or any country's company) to the people of the United States, the product is going to most likely be looked at through a U.S. lens by the customers there. People in the United States are going to judge that product by a U.S. perspective, and there will be feedback from a U.S. point of view. If the developer of the product wants to succeed in the U.S., then it is a good thing to review the opinions of the U.S. customer and make adjustments to the U.S. version if there needs to be (yay, localization).
I don't know if I've been misreading, but I haven't seen Noble demand anything. It sounds like he/she/they are discussing what they would like to see in the Remake, whether it is obtainable or not. And quite frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a more diverse looking cast in video games in general.
When a product is sold by a Japanese company (or any country's company) to the people of the United States, the product is going to most likely be looked at through a U.S. lens by the customers there. People in the United States are going to judge that product by a U.S. perspective, and there will be feedback from a U.S. point of view. If the developer of the product wants to succeed in the U.S., then it is a good thing to review the opinions of the U.S. customer and make adjustments to the U.S. version if there needs to be (yay, localization).
I don't know if I've been misreading, but I haven't seen Noble demand anything. It sounds like he/she/they are discussing what they would like to see in the Remake, whether it is obtainable or not. And quite frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a more diverse looking cast in video games in general.
Ooh good thought.
I don't think SE are ... profound storytellers enough to have gone for such a thing, but I'm into the whole 'victors writing the history books' thing. It's done pretty well in Valkyria Chronicles.
I'm sick of USA's cultural imperialism. So, so, sick of it. I get it, you're a big country, a powerful one, with a huge population and a complex relationship with race and culture.
But I'm done doing like your country's POV sould dictate mine, or my country's POV about those issues.
When GOT producers came to Spain to film, they looked for extras. I saw the ads, and I'll tell you something. Those ads were the most fucking stereotyped idea of a Spaniard I've seen in this century. It was dowright racist.
They ONLY wanted dark mediterranean complexion extras. Dark skin, hair and eyes was why they wanted Spanish extras.
I was so, so pissed.
I wasn't pissed because I couldn't go and audit for a role (I'm one of those Spanish people with Celtic roots since I'm from the Northwest of Spain so I'm kinda pale), I was pissed because THAT was the idea they had of us: a race, and a homogeneous one at that. Like we weren't the product of countless invasions, countless cultures and blood and culture mixes, rarely peaceful and mutually beneficial, and oftentimes violent.
The utter disregard for our history pissed me off. I'm still pissed, if you can't tell.
So while I get you, I just wish FFVII to be like it is: race,specially in USA terms, doesn't exist in their world.
I've argued many many times that diversity is mandatory in fantasy because it enriches worldbuilding, and yes, elves could have any skin tone. Just not Tolkien's elves, because Tolkien was clear about it. You can't change Legolas skin tone and treat it as canon.
And this idiotic example, because I don't even like LOTR, is what some people are aganist SJWs doing, because they pull shit like this non-ironically, and I agree they're nuts. I you don't like something as it is, just leave it and go find something that suits your tastes.
What do you think of this?
Is this progressive? Is this a racist caricature? Is it representation or a gross generalization/stereotyping? Also lol, Aerith of all the charaters being a devout and demure muslim girl.
I don't even know anymore.
But I'm done doing like your country's POV sould dictate mine, or my country's POV about those issues.
When GOT producers came to Spain to film, they looked for extras. I saw the ads, and I'll tell you something. Those ads were the most fucking stereotyped idea of a Spaniard I've seen in this century. It was dowright racist.
They ONLY wanted dark mediterranean complexion extras. Dark skin, hair and eyes was why they wanted Spanish extras.
I was so, so pissed.
I wasn't pissed because I couldn't go and audit for a role (I'm one of those Spanish people with Celtic roots since I'm from the Northwest of Spain so I'm kinda pale), I was pissed because THAT was the idea they had of us: a race, and a homogeneous one at that. Like we weren't the product of countless invasions, countless cultures and blood and culture mixes, rarely peaceful and mutually beneficial, and oftentimes violent.
The utter disregard for our history pissed me off. I'm still pissed, if you can't tell.
So while I get you, I just wish FFVII to be like it is: race,specially in USA terms, doesn't exist in their world.
I've argued many many times that diversity is mandatory in fantasy because it enriches worldbuilding, and yes, elves could have any skin tone. Just not Tolkien's elves, because Tolkien was clear about it. You can't change Legolas skin tone and treat it as canon.
And this idiotic example, because I don't even like LOTR, is what some people are aganist SJWs doing, because they pull shit like this non-ironically, and I agree they're nuts. I you don't like something as it is, just leave it and go find something that suits your tastes.
What do you think of this?
Is this progressive? Is this a racist caricature? Is it representation or a gross generalization/stereotyping? Also lol, Aerith of all the charaters being a devout and demure muslim girl.
I don't even know anymore.
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Whether Square actually goes for that narrative or not, I didn't get any impression that we were supposed to accept that hologram as fact about anything anyway. Like Tetsujin observed, it depicts Midgar being constructed in the middle of the desert/wasteland when we know that Midgar CREATED the wasteland. If it was a barren landscape, it wouldn't have been a good place to build Mako reactors. But obviously Shinra wouldn't want to advertise that fact.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
@Cat on Mars: Honestly, that looks fucking cool.
Why would the Cetra be coded as any one thing? Aren't they the entire population of the Planet, with a nomadic way of life? The idea that they must have any specific one culture is in itself odd to me. Different tribes would obviously be very different in looks and outlook.
Indigenous Americans or Africans are not all the same thing, so there's no real way to 'code' them without oversimplifying the complexities and potentially lumping people in with, for instance, their bitter enemies in the neighbouring tribe.
A snapshot of an individual tribe likely would involve similar looking people, (traveling by foot long distance? Not so easy), but that doesn't mean that all representatives of all the Cetra would be the same, or even similar.
I find that in fanfic a lot, when people see the vaguely Japanese architecture in Wutai and conclude that it's a beat for beat analogue for Imperial Japan.
GOT's worldbuilding was very funny to me when I first read the books. The bluff straight talking northerners with their wall across the top to keep out theScots wildlings, with the decadent southern court on a port town with its bitter enemies across the sea...even the map is just the uk with ireland glued to the bottom.
Why would the Cetra be coded as any one thing? Aren't they the entire population of the Planet, with a nomadic way of life? The idea that they must have any specific one culture is in itself odd to me. Different tribes would obviously be very different in looks and outlook.
Indigenous Americans or Africans are not all the same thing, so there's no real way to 'code' them without oversimplifying the complexities and potentially lumping people in with, for instance, their bitter enemies in the neighbouring tribe.
A snapshot of an individual tribe likely would involve similar looking people, (traveling by foot long distance? Not so easy), but that doesn't mean that all representatives of all the Cetra would be the same, or even similar.
I find that in fanfic a lot, when people see the vaguely Japanese architecture in Wutai and conclude that it's a beat for beat analogue for Imperial Japan.
GOT's worldbuilding was very funny to me when I first read the books. The bluff straight talking northerners with their wall across the top to keep out the
Pizzachu
SOLDIER Fan
I don’t keep up with GOT, so I’m sorry that the show creators were ignorant when trying to attract extras. I also don’t know much about LOTR either. I’ve only watched the movies a long time ago and can’t remember much.
As for race in FFVII’s world, it does exist. Fantasy pulls from reality and there are characters that do seem to be coded a different way than generic, ambiguous anime characters. Barret would generally be coded as black. Red XIII/Nanaki would be coded as indigenous American. Yuffie and Wutai are based on Asian culture. Hojo is a Japanese name.
The characters there don’t judge each other or identify as certain races which is one of the things I like about Final Fantasy VII. But at the same time, certain representation is there in the game even if it is loosely based off races in the real world.
Video games make statements. Every choice the developers put in is a statement, whether they intend to make one or not. The way the characters look is a statement. That statement can be interpreted differently based on the individual.
As for the Aerith drawing, I also think it looks cool. Would that be representation of a character based off Muslims? Sure. Whether that would be good representation or not is not something I can personally attest to since I’m not well-versed with Muslim culture. Ideally, I would say “yes” because Aerith is a great character IMO. However, I don’t know what other people would think.
As for race in FFVII’s world, it does exist. Fantasy pulls from reality and there are characters that do seem to be coded a different way than generic, ambiguous anime characters. Barret would generally be coded as black. Red XIII/Nanaki would be coded as indigenous American. Yuffie and Wutai are based on Asian culture. Hojo is a Japanese name.
The characters there don’t judge each other or identify as certain races which is one of the things I like about Final Fantasy VII. But at the same time, certain representation is there in the game even if it is loosely based off races in the real world.
Video games make statements. Every choice the developers put in is a statement, whether they intend to make one or not. The way the characters look is a statement. That statement can be interpreted differently based on the individual.
As for the Aerith drawing, I also think it looks cool. Would that be representation of a character based off Muslims? Sure. Whether that would be good representation or not is not something I can personally attest to since I’m not well-versed with Muslim culture. Ideally, I would say “yes” because Aerith is a great character IMO. However, I don’t know what other people would think.
Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
I only have one observation: You americans, whatever you read, watch or play at, every single thing ends up gravitating around your country and its history. Know that the japanese use the Far West aesthetic because they think of it as exotic, not to make a statement about native americans and their opression, and in VII it very well have been used at Cosmo Canyon to signify their proximity to nature and a more primitive way of life (which I don't know if today's sensibilities would consider it racist. I don't really want to know).
Not everything is a political statement, especially things not made in the USA, and the western media, with its exquisite policital correctness (towards some things) is slowly turning into propaganda and cutting every creative flaw that we could have. Sometimes a certain aesthetic is chosen because it's cool and no, there's no investigation about YOUR cultural nuances in many cases because that's what real life is for. You want to get informed? Get out of your home , read, meet foreign people and grow as a person instead of relying on a virtual simulation, and demand that said virtual simulation conforms to every single one of your personal preferences.
And... sorry for what I'm about to say, american fellows, but the rest of the world will be sensitive to every single one of your societal nuances, enthic conflicts and what have you when your media starts caring and properly researching about other countries. I swear I still want to slap the director form Mission Impossible 2, for mixing up two religious festivities which are always held in two separate dates, and the dialogue treating the whole affair as if it was a primitive ritual held by cavemen.
Not everything is a political statement, especially things not made in the USA, and the western media, with its exquisite policital correctness (towards some things) is slowly turning into propaganda and cutting every creative flaw that we could have. Sometimes a certain aesthetic is chosen because it's cool and no, there's no investigation about YOUR cultural nuances in many cases because that's what real life is for. You want to get informed? Get out of your home , read, meet foreign people and grow as a person instead of relying on a virtual simulation, and demand that said virtual simulation conforms to every single one of your personal preferences.
And... sorry for what I'm about to say, american fellows, but the rest of the world will be sensitive to every single one of your societal nuances, enthic conflicts and what have you when your media starts caring and properly researching about other countries. I swear I still want to slap the director form Mission Impossible 2, for mixing up two religious festivities which are always held in two separate dates, and the dialogue treating the whole affair as if it was a primitive ritual held by cavemen.
Race is a social construct. If your society hasn't constructed it, it doesn't exist. You're applying American codes to a fantasy society designed by Japanese people. You're also implying that only people who are thoroughly familiar with those codes can fully understand and appreciate FFVII; that people who aren't familiar with First Nations culture can never really "get" the character of Red XIII.
Final Fantasy games can't have Muslim girls or Christian nuns or Buddhist monks in them because they're not set in our world. If SE created a culture within one of their worlds where the women went veiled, we couldn't start claiming that this was Muslim representation. You can't have Muslims in a world where there is no Islam. Even though sector 5 has a church that's heavily coded Christian, I think we all know it's not meant to be a Christian church or Christian representation, becaus you can't have a Christian church in a world where there is no Christianity. It's merely a generic place of worship.
What these games have, or should have, is representation of the full diversity of human beings, so that we can all, as individuals, see ourselves protrayed there. If you identify as a woman and that's important to you, then it's great to see that women play so many important roles in FF games. If you have darker skin and that's important to you, then it's important to see people who look like you playing key roles.
Personally, I was pleased to see some fat NPCs, particularly the girl down in Wall Market who was on a hot date.
That said, if fan artists want to imagine a Muslim Aerith, they have every right to do so.
Final Fantasy games can't have Muslim girls or Christian nuns or Buddhist monks in them because they're not set in our world. If SE created a culture within one of their worlds where the women went veiled, we couldn't start claiming that this was Muslim representation. You can't have Muslims in a world where there is no Islam. Even though sector 5 has a church that's heavily coded Christian, I think we all know it's not meant to be a Christian church or Christian representation, becaus you can't have a Christian church in a world where there is no Christianity. It's merely a generic place of worship.
What these games have, or should have, is representation of the full diversity of human beings, so that we can all, as individuals, see ourselves protrayed there. If you identify as a woman and that's important to you, then it's great to see that women play so many important roles in FF games. If you have darker skin and that's important to you, then it's important to see people who look like you playing key roles.
Personally, I was pleased to see some fat NPCs, particularly the girl down in Wall Market who was on a hot date.
That said, if fan artists want to imagine a Muslim Aerith, they have every right to do so.
Something I want to point out about Americans, as an American - we are not just geographically, but very culturally isolated, to the point where most people don’t even realize that our culture and race relations don’t really apply outside the US. Many of us have never travelled outside the country, myself included, and an American can spend their whole life never watching a single movie not from Hollywood. There is also the fallacious thinking that because America has had so many immigrants, it automatically represents the world. I think it’s important for Americans to do what we can to escape this intellectual bubble.
- AKA
- Rishi
I was about to thank this post, but when I got to this part I admittedly went kinda "what the fuck" at this
I... don't find anything cringe or whatever about this at all, anymore than stuff like making a character have same-sex attraction for shipping purposes. Isn't interacting with fictional works on one's own terms a lot of the point of engaging with a fandom? I don't see how this was necessary when it seemed like you were talking about American cultural imperialism at first, it detracts from your overall point imo.On the actual point - a fantasy setting doesn't exist in a vaccuum. Any depiction of race, fictional or not, is informed by real-world understanding of racial issues. FF7 is no different. The problem is analyzing it with a Western slant, as that can lean into American Cultural Imperialism. I get that fully - being so close to the US border. But at the same time, it's not like racism and politics don't exist in Japan. I am but a mere weeb, so I can't really say much more than that
What I can add is that, not speaking about Japan specifically, from my experience being Asian and growing up around other Asians, the predisposition towards colourism is a lot more overt and vicious than what I see typically from the Western tendency towards "political correctness" so to speak.
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