FFVII and canon article updated

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#26
First – G-Bike doesn't have a date listed with it, whereas all the other games do.

On to the main bits:

Insofar as Tactics & Dissidia are concerned, I like to think of them as being the Expanded Universe-equivalent of FFVII's canon continuity. Anything like that that's an officially-produced "soft touch" to the game such that it doesn't in any way add or detract from the actual storyline.

Essentially I would argue that "Final Fantasy VII's canon" doesn't include them, because they literally don't make any change - either with their presence or lack thereof – so they're essentially non-factors. They're invisible to the continuity and content in FFVII's canon, so it makes sense to categorize them differently from the Compilation. Hell, even if MotP's content was canon, it would add in minor details to FFVII, whereas if it's not it's still invisible which still makes it in a different category.

However!

Those characters' appearances in the games they're a part of are canon appearances, so FFVII would be a part of "Dissidia's canon" or "Final Fantasy Tactics' canon" because FFVII's story affects how they interact in those world's story and continuity. They're literally official AU stories.



Essentially, for Star Wars-type references:

• FFVII Universe canon: Compilation canon-only
• FFVII Expanded Universe canon: FFVII U + Tactics, Dissidia, & other "invisible" or AU-based canon.
• FFVII Legends canon: FFVII EXU + Maiden of the Planet


I think that given the references you make in explaining canon, it'd make sense to categorize canon events like this to wrap things up.




X :neo:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#27
Well, I was trying to avoid notions of alternate timelines. That's more complicated than I really want to go. It's more simple to say it either does or doesn't apply. Though I don't dislike what you've constructed (I am a tad unclear on the reasoning for what you've placed where, though). I'll give it some thought.

Also, thanks for catching the G-Bike thing. :monster:

Starling said:
The problem with Tactics is that Cloud seems to have washed up in Mideel roughly a day after falling into the Lifestream and got mako poisoning out of it.
I don't believe we were given a date for when he washed up there. We know Tifa woke up a week after Meteor's casting and that Cloud washed up at Mideel "about a week ago," but it's not specified how long after the escape from Junon that they find Cloud in Mideel. The doctor who diagnosed Cloud also only says that Cloud had been exposed to mako for "a protracted period of time," so I'd hesitate to try pinning anything down too close.

We also can't be too sure how long Cloud would have been in Ivalice or whether the length of time that passed there is directly 1:1 with Cloud's world.
Starling said:
I haven't played tactics but I don't recall him being shown in the state he was in at the whirlwind maze from what I know of his role in the game.
He's pretty messed up in Tactics.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#28
Well, I was trying to avoid notions of alternate timelines. That's more complicated than I really want to go. It's more simple to say it either does or doesn't apply. Though I don't dislike what you've constructed (I am a tad unclear on the reasoning for what you've placed where, though). I'll give it some thought.

Also, thanks for catching the G-Bike thing. :monster:
They are all one timeline though (MotP sort of notwithstanding because of all of Page 3 and I threw in as a last one because of all the effort you went through to detail it, and that it feels like Legends for the Star Wars connection). :awesomonster:


I'm just talking about it in terms of "canon that touches FFVII's content" and "canon that is only touched BY FFVII's content" and their differences. The Compilation Titles & FFX's connections clearly fall into the former, whereas Dissidia & Tactics fall into the latter. It's worth making the distinction, specifically because they're very different TYPES of content when looking at it because of them being two-way relationships in regards to one another vs. one-way relationships in regards to one another.

Additionally, the "FFVII Universe" and "FFVII Expanded Universe" really also captures the fact that Dissidia & Tactics are part of a universe that's wholly contained outside of FFVII's.


Either way, glad to help. :monster:




X :neo:
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
#29
Starling said:
The problem with Tactics is that Cloud seems to have washed up in Mideel roughly a day after falling into the Lifestream and got mako poisoning out of it.
I don't believe we were given a date for when he washed up there. We know Tifa woke up a week after Meteor's casting and that Cloud washed up at Mideel "about a week ago," but it's not specified how long after the escape from Junon that they find Cloud in Mideel. The doctor who diagnosed Cloud also only says that Cloud had been exposed to mako for "a protracted period of time," so I'd hesitate to try pinning anything down too close.

We also can't be too sure how long Cloud would have been in Ivalice or whether the length of time that passed there is directly 1:1 with Cloud's world.
Starling said:
I haven't played tactics but I don't recall him being shown in the state he was in at the whirlwind maze from what I know of his role in the game.
He's pretty messed up in Tactics.
How messed up is he exactly? I mean, he can fight just fine, is willing to fight and I don't think he mentioned anything about thinking everything about him is a fabrication from his memories to his appearance and very name, which is where his mental state was when he fell into the Lifetream.

Since Nanaki suggested looking in Mideel when in the Highwind and since it can get from the North Crater to Midgar in very little time, it would seem that they got to Mideel the day after Tifa woke up. For what the doctor said, several hours would probably be enough to be a protracted period of time, especially if he isn't aware of Cloud's prior mako exposure when he says that. I mean, the townspeople Tifa overhears don't seem to mistake Cloud for a SOLDIER and simply find his glowing eyes strange.

Tactics and Dissidia aren't actually part of the compilation so I don't think they should be considered canon, even if Cloud's presence is part of those games' canon. It's easier to just treat them like official AUs as is standard for crossovers.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#30
Starling said:
How messed up is he exactly?
When he shows up, he's still getting debilitating headaches (he nearly dies in battle to some baseline human thugs because of it), says the last thing he remembers is falling into the Lifestream, and goes from confidently claiming that he's an ex-SOLDIER to -- during one of those headaches -- insisting (to no one in particular) that he's real rather than a fabrication ("I'm a member of SOLDIER! I was not...made!").
 
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Starling

Pro Adventurer
#31
OK but I don't think Cloud would just go back to thinking he's a SOLDIER after the whirlwind maze. That should've been thoroughly taken apart. What's he like by the end? While they definitely reference the plot at the point in time they decided to take him from, I wouldn't call it entirely consistent with FF7. I mean, you'd think the mako poisoning would've set in before he ended up n Ivalice and that his time there would've helped avoid or at least lessen the state he's in when he's in Mideel.
 

JechtShotMK9

The Sublimely Magnificent One
AKA
Kamiccolo9
#32
But with the way Dissidia references things, it kind of implies that everything happens AFTER the characters' respective games. And that gets especially strange with FF7 given that it's had sequels and shit.

Whereas with Tactics, I'm saying that either it could have easily happened from Ivalice's perspective and Cloud would never remember it separate from whatever other crazy visions he was having. Or from Cloud's perspective and you could argue that literally all of FFTactics was his imaginations, if you were so inclined.

Dissidia's amnesia thing makes it easy to say everyone could have been anywhere, anytime, for everyone. Tactics just seems more gracefully done :monster:
Well, in several of the cases, the characters couldn't have been taken from after the events of their games because, well, a lot of them are dead. Cloud and Tifa, for example, could have been taken from sometime between the OG and the novellas, but I don't believe anything prevents them from having been taken at any point after Cloud yanks himself out of the Lifestream.

Or maybe they are all taken at some point after their original games, and Shinryu just recreates the destroyed villains or something. Because divine dragon god powers. I mean, he's able to recreate all the dead warriors each cycle, anyway.

I seem to recall the end of the 13th cycle having characters saying something to the effect of "we may not ever remember each other, but that doesn't change the sacrifices we've made," or something like that. I mean, the game itself offers a perfectly acceptable, if overused, JRPG-trope of amnesia to explain away contradictions, as well as establishing that Shinryu has some form of control over time, as he managed to create an alternate timeline to torture Cid with.

So we have a ready-made explanation that fixes any and all problems of making Dissidia "fit," in that characters are yanked out of their worlds, and inserted back in at the same point with no memory of what happened. Regardless of the character arcs that the individuals go through, it must be remembered that the setting of the game is essentially a cosmic bet. The characters are meant to be pawns used to prove a point, not as individuals with their own lives and experiences. Shinryu doesn't care if they retain the stuff they learn or not.

I think that Gabranth and Shantotto would be more interesting questions than Cloud and co., honestly, given that their situations are different, since they escaped the cycle themselves.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#33
Pretty much all of them would rather explicitly be taken after their respective games with a few obvious exceptions (Warrior of Light and 27-year-old Laguna). Golbez and Cecil know their relation to one another, Kuja is a good guy even though he's on Team Chaos (and Zidane is happy to see him), Cloud feels that his battle with Sephiroth is already over, Yuna has already lost Tidus, etc.

Starling said:
OK but I don't think Cloud would just go back to thinking he's a SOLDIER after the whirlwind maze. That should've been thoroughly taken apart. What's he like by the end? While they definitely reference the plot at the point in time they decided to take him from, I wouldn't call it entirely consistent with FF7. I mean, you'd think the mako poisoning would've set in before he ended up n Ivalice and that his time there would've helped avoid or at least lessen the state he's in when he's in Mideel.
There's not really enough information to go off. Only a few main characters get a proper resolution to their arcs. Cloud's time in the spotlight is rather brief, and you're left to assume the Zodiac Stones sent him home at the end, the same as they did
Ramza and Alma
.
 
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Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
#34
I don't think Dissidia or Tatics(or whatever it's called) are canon to FFVII as much as the Compilation is very much is(at least to some people like me).

Personally, I think the closest to canon with other Final Fantasy titles is FFX because the Farplane is similiar to the Lifestream. What if at some point in the future, like say, thousands of years after FFX-2, that someone who might be the rebirth of Yunalasca(or possibly is Yunalasca) hunted people down to the point of the descended of the Shinra kid takes everyone from Spira to Gaia and that's when the entire thing with Cetra becoming extinct due to Yunalasca following them and, after destroying Spira and seeing how the Lifestream is much, much better, grows hateful even further and tries to destroy it.

I know this is very fanfic like, and I try to make it somewhat canon sense, but if there were a FFX-3, I think Yunalasca would be the next antagonist, considering how she's way too comfortable to sacrifice Summoners and have Sin reborn from the final Aeon and how she didn't make much of a difference or didn't even agree with Yuna's resolve to defeat Sin for good. Plus, like how Sephiroth was the cause of Geostigma in Advent Children from within the Lifestream to be reborn through Kadaj, maybe Yunalasca(or Seymour) is the one beckoning the return in the audio drama(though that was a pretty bad move).
 
#35
Pretty much all of them would rather explicitly be taken after their respective games with a few obvious exceptions (Warrior of Light and 27-year-old Laguna). Golbez and Cecil know their relation to one another, Kuja is a good guy even though he's on Team Chaos (and Zidane is happy to see him), Cloud feels that his battle with Sephiroth is already over, Yuna has already lost Tidus, etc.
Yup.

Starling said:
OK but I don't think Cloud would just go back to thinking he's a SOLDIER after the whirlwind maze. That should've been thoroughly taken apart. What's he like by the end? While they definitely reference the plot at the point in time they decided to take him from, I wouldn't call it entirely consistent with FF7. I mean, you'd think the mako poisoning would've set in before he ended up n Ivalice and that his time there would've helped avoid or at least lessen the state he's in when he's in Mideel.
There's not really enough information to go off. Only a few main characters get a proper resolution to their arcs. Cloud's time in the spotlight is rather brief, and you're left to assume the Zodiac Stones sent him home at the end, the same as they did
Ramza and Alma
.
Agreed. As you said above, there's no guarantee that time is flowing at the same rate in both worlds, and there's no guarantee that Cloud was physically there anyway. Though that is of course implied from Ivalice's perspective, it could've all been a Cloud fever dream. Or the Zodiac Stone could have simply made his essence real, rather than actually moving his body. He could have been in Ivalice the whole time he was IN Mideel spouting gibberish.

I guess, in addition to what I said about about the Tactic's cameo seems more elegantly done, it's also a lot more fun to think about play with. As opposed to Dissidia which is just "*shrug* He's there some time."

For the record, I think both Balthier's and Luso's cameos ALSO seem rather canon. Balthier was presumably transported there by the Cache of Glabados, and Luso by the grimoire(? Not very familiar with FFTA2).
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
#36
Or maybe they are all taken at some point after their original games, and Shinryu just recreates the destroyed villains or something. Because divine dragon god powers. I mean, he's able to recreate all the dead warriors each cycle, anyway.
Over-reliance on deus ex machinas to explain stuff would be so boring. I posted a theory in the forum's Dissidia section about the possible metaphysics involved in the conflict, if you're interested.

So we have a ready-made explanation that fixes any and all problems of making Dissidia "fit," in that characters are yanked out of their worlds, and inserted back in at the same point with no memory of what happened. Regardless of the character arcs that the individuals go through, it must be remembered that the setting of the game is essentially a cosmic bet. The characters are meant to be pawns used to prove a point, not as individuals with their own lives and experiences. Shinryu doesn't care if they retain the stuff they learn or not.
Fighting game excuse plots and crossovers aren't worth the trouble of trying to seriously work into FF7's continuity. It's all well and nice to try it for fun but stuff outside the compilation simply shouldn't be considered canon.

I think that Gabranth and Shantotto would be more interesting questions than Cloud and co., honestly, given that their situations are different, since they escaped the cycle themselves.
They may no longer be involved in the cycles but I wouldn't say they truly escaped until they actually managed to leave world B.


Starling said:
OK but I don't think Cloud would just go back to thinking he's a SOLDIER after the whirlwind maze. That should've been thoroughly taken apart. What's he like by the end? While they definitely reference the plot at the point in time they decided to take him from, I wouldn't call it entirely consistent with FF7. I mean, you'd think the mako poisoning would've set in before he ended up in Ivalice and that his time there would've helped avoid or at least lessen the state he's in when he's in Mideel.
There's not really enough information to go off. Only a few main characters get a proper resolution to their arcs. Cloud's time in the spotlight is rather brief, and you're left to assume the Zodiac Stones sent him home at the end, the same as they did
Ramza and Alma
.
That doesn't explain why Tactics Cloud was born January 31 and has Aquarius as his Zodiac sign, or why there's a flower girl named Aerith in Ivalice who is definitely not the same Aerith from FF7.


Personally, I think the closest to canon with other Final Fantasy titles is FFX because the Farplane is similiar to the Lifestream. What if at some point in the future, like say, thousands of years after FFX-2, that someone who might be the rebirth of Yunalasca(or possibly is Yunalasca) hunted people down to the point of the descended of the Shinra kid takes everyone from Spira to Gaia and that's when the entire thing with Cetra becoming extinct due to Yunalasca following them and, after destroying Spira and seeing how the Lifestream is much, much better, grows hateful even further and tries to destroy it.

I know this is very fanfic like, and I try to make it somewhat canon sense, but if there were a FFX-3, I think Yunalasca would be the next antagonist, considering how she's way too comfortable to sacrifice Summoners and have Sin reborn from the final Aeon and how she didn't make much of a difference or didn't even agree with Yuna's resolve to defeat Sin for good. Plus, like how Sephiroth was the cause of Geostigma in Advent Children from within the Lifestream to be reborn through Kadaj, maybe Yunalasca(or Seymour) is the one beckoning the return in the audio drama(though that was a pretty bad move).
I'm pretty sure Yunalesca is gone for good after FFX-2. Bringing back Sin and stuff that was resolved already would be redundant and undo the whole point of what happened in FF10, which was finding a permanent solution to the Sin problem. If that bit about Yunalesca following and trying to destroy the Lifestream is supposed to be an explanation for Jenova, then I don't think fiends and unsent can manage to be anything like what Jenova is and you'd think Ifalna would've known something about that when recounting Jenova's arrival.

There are several things you'd have to reconcile before you could make FF10 and FF7 work in the same universe. For one thing, IIRC the Farplane can be physically visited by living people without ill effects, summons used to be people and don't work the same way, magic doesn't work the same way, all of FF10's knowledge and history would have to be lost despite people usually taking measures to remember that kind of thing over the years and I'm pretty sure FF7's humans originated from the Cetra. Otherwise, their being aliens from another planet would be something worth hinting at and that would be after suspending disbelief that humans and Cetra are from two different planets while being nearly identical save for the Cetra's ability to talk to the planet and such, which there is reason to believe humans could potentially be able to do after a few generations of trying.


Agreed. As you said above, there's no guarantee that time is flowing at the same rate in both worlds, and there's no guarantee that Cloud was physically there anyway. Though that is of course implied from Ivalice's perspective, it could've all been a Cloud fever dream. Or the Zodiac Stone could have simply made his essence real, rather than actually moving his body. He could have been in Ivalice the whole time he was IN Mideel spouting gibberish.

I guess, in addition to what I said about about the Tactic's cameo seems more elegantly done, it's also a lot more fun to think about play with. As opposed to Dissidia which is just "*shrug* He's there some time."

For the record, I think both Balthier's and Luso's cameos ALSO seem rather canon. Balthier was presumably transported there by the Cache of Glabados, and Luso by the grimoire(? Not very familiar with FFTA2).
Is there any reason to expect whatever got him to and from Ivalice can alter time and doesn't physically transport people? I think your explanation is stretching things quite a bit. Also, while Cloud was pretty out of it in Mideel, he did have some awareness, even if he mostly said nonsense besides what he says right before Ultimate Weapon shows up.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#37
That doesn't explain why Tactics Cloud was born January 31 and has Aquarius as his Zodiac sign ...
That's one question, really, rather than two. Aquarius goes with the January 31 thing.

Anyway, no idea why they did that unless it was because of something to do with the gameplay mechanics related to Zodiac compatibility -- or a reference to Aerith.

Really, though, it's a question worth asking whether we're talking canon or cameo.

Starling said:
... or why there's a flower girl named Aerith in Ivalice who is definitely not the same Aerith from FF7.
It's not explained, no, but that's why it's interesting. The oddness of it is highlighted (Cloud notices the resemblance and is disoriented by it).
Starling said:
Bringing back Sin and stuff that was resolved already would be redundant and undo the whole point of what happened in FF10, which was finding a permanent solution to the Sin problem.
Sadly, they did it.
Starling said:
There are several things you'd have to reconcile before you could make FF10 and FF7 work in the same universe. For one thing, IIRC the Farplane can be physically visited by living people without ill effects ...
On both worlds, the spirit energy of the dead goes back inside the planet. On one world, that energy roams together (more or less) as a single swell. On the other, it's less cohesive. Not really a big deal for variation of similar properties to exist on different planets in the same universe.

You need only look at our own universe to see drastic differences in how common elements can manifest.

For that matter, even on Spira, the memories of the dead have been shown to overwhelm the living in at least one location swarming with pyreflies. It's similar enough to mako poisoning to warrant mention.

Starling said:
... summons used to be people and don't work the same way, magic doesn't work the same way ...
There are multiple ways to create summons, even on Spira. And on both worlds, it still comes back to the memories of dead lifeforms.

As for magic, it's provided by spheres -- orbs created from crystalized spirit energy containing the memories of the dead. Sound much like materia?

Hell, Nomura originally wanted to call materia "spheres."
Starling said:
... all of FF10's knowledge and history would have to be lost despite people usually taking measures to remember that kind of thing over the years ...
Lost civilizations aren't new to FF. Especially when you've got an eldritch terror who terrorized the world eldritch-ly a millennium before.
Starling said:
... and I'm pretty sure FF7's humans originated from the Cetra.
All we know is that some Cetra gave up their journey. We don't know when or why (aliens presenting a more convenient lifestyle would be as good a reason as any).

Starling said:
Otherwise, their being aliens from another planet would be something worth hinting at ...
You've seen the -- both in-game and out -- references to the Shera being a relic of a lost civilization, correct? And if that thing's design sensibilities were any closer to the Fahrenheit and Celsius airships, you'd be looking for Yuna to be in one of those rooms on the Shera in Dirge.

Starling said:
... and that would be after suspending disbelief that humans and Cetra are from two different planets while being nearly identical ...
Is that a problem for you with FFIV, V or IX? Or with most science fiction? "Aliens look like us" is a trope that's been there from the beginning.

Also, Jenova itself is an alien -- why would we assume the rest of the universe is empty, especially when both Bugenhagen and Lucrecia provide dissertations about other worlds having Lifestreams?
 
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Odysseus

Potato Cult Leader
AKA
Ody
#38
The reason that Cloud's birthday is January 31st in tactics is because that's the date FF7 was originally released in Japan. Of course, that doesn't explain it in universe at all.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
#40
That doesn't explain why Tactics Cloud was born January 31 and has Aquarius as his Zodiac sign ...
That's one question, really, rather than two. Aquarius goes with the January 31 thing.
I brought them up together for a reason, you know.

Anyway, no idea why they did that unless it was because of something to do with the gameplay mechanics related to Zodiac compatibility -- or a reference to Aerith.

Really, though, it's a question worth asking whether we're talking canon or cameo.
Who says I wouldn't bring it up regardless? With cameos it's just a reference not meant to make that much sense but with canon it kinda has to, like all the other series/franchises that make references that don't necessarily mean they're in the same universe. You're not going to treat Kid Icarus and Metroid as happening in the same universe because they both have metroids or act as though capcom vs plots are canon crossovers for everyone involved and so on. It's just a fun reference and non-canon crossover respectively.


Starling said:
... or why there's a flower girl named Aerith in Ivalice who is definitely not the same Aerith from FF7.
It's not explained, no, but that's why it's interesting. The oddness of it is highlighted (Cloud notices the resemblance and is disoriented by it).
It's not explained because the whole thing is just one big cameo and not meant to be canon from FF7's side of things.

Bringing back Sin and stuff that was resolved already would be redundant and undo the whole point of what happened in FF10, which was finding a permanent solution to the Sin problem.
Sadly, they did it.
I don't remember anything about Sin coming back. Yunalesca sure but so did Seymour within FF10 and it's safe to say she's gone for good after having turned into a fiend and such.


On both worlds, the spirit energy of the dead goes back inside the planet. On one world, that energy roams together (more or less) as a single swell. On the other, it's less cohesive. Not really a big deal for variation of similar properties to exist on different planets in the same universe.

You need only look at our own universe to see drastic differences in how common elements can manifest.
So now real life comparisons are valid instead of literary interpretation? What about how people fade back into the Lifestream to reincarnate? People in the Farplane seem to just hang around with relative ease.

For that matter, even on Spira, the memories of the dead have been shown to overwhelm the living in at least one location swarming with pyreflies. It's similar enough to mako poisoning to warrant mention.


There are multiple ways to create summons, even on Spira. And on both worlds, it still comes back to the memories of dead lifeforms.

As for magic, it's provided by spheres -- orbs created from crystalized spirit energy containing the memories of the dead. Sound much like materia?

Hell, Nomura originally wanted to call materia "spheres."

Lost civilizations aren't new to FF. Especially when you've got an eldritch terror who terrorized the world eldritch-ly a millennium before.

All we know is that some Cetra gave up their journey. We don't know when or why (aliens presenting a more convenient lifestyle would be as good a reason as any).
That's like saying the recurring FF elements like Chocobos, spells, classes etc mean all the FF games happen in the same universe. Can you name some of these other methods of creating summons in FF10? I don't recall any besides the fayth.

Starling said:
Otherwise, their being aliens from another planet would be something worth hinting at ...
You've seen the -- both in-game and out -- references to the Shera being a relic of a lost civilization, correct? And if that thing's design sensibilities were any closer to the Fahrenheit and Celsius airships, you'd be looking for Yuna to be in one of those rooms on the Shera in Dirge.
Who says that lost civilization isn't the Cetra? Really, the whole idea of finding an airship buried in the ground and actually being able to use it is ridiculous, let alone technology from some never before mentioned lost civilization is suddenly found right in the middle of everyone trying to pick themselves up in the wake of FF7's ending. Even if Cid had to dig the damn thing up only the very basics of it should still be salvageable, the rest getting heavily overhauled with FF7's technology to be functional, defeating the whole point of it being lost technology from long ago.

The Highwind's bridge looks a lot like the Shera's and it's not like they've had the technology for over 2000 years. Any airship's bridge is going to want to be open, with workstations or whatever to the side, the piloting space with an unobstructed view of where the ship's going and so on. You'll notice that the FF10 airships aren't piloted the same way as the FF7 ones, which is a pretty big difference. Really, you're just saying they're similar because of the holo-projector thing, which is technology that already exists in FF7, as shown with Bugenhagen's observatory.

As for the outside,




I dislike the design of the Shera's exterior, Bahamut SHIN and the Shadow creepers from ACC but the Shera definitely looks more like the
than any other airship.


Starling said:
... and that would be after suspending disbelief that humans and Cetra are from two different planets while being nearly identical ...
Is that a problem for you with FFIV, V or IX? Or with most science fiction? "Aliens look like us" is a trope that's been there from the beginning.

Also, Jenova itself is an alien -- why would we assume the rest of the universe is empty, especially when both Bugenhagen and Lucrecia provide dissertations about other worlds having Lifestreams?
I mean 1:1 no difference, not even stuff like differing phenotypes or some particular ability. Dimensional travel is a whole other thing where you can end up with alternate reality counterparts of the same species with little to no trouble and is more a multiverse thing than different planets existing in a single universe.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#41
Starling said:
The problem with Tactics is that Cloud seems to have washed up in Mideel roughly a day after falling into the Lifestream and got mako poisoning out of it.
I don't believe we were given a date for when he washed up there. We know Tifa woke up a week after Meteor's casting and that Cloud washed up at Mideel "about a week ago," but it's not specified how long after the escape from Junon that they find Cloud in Mideel. The doctor who diagnosed Cloud also only says that Cloud had been exposed to mako for "a protracted period of time," so I'd hesitate to try pinning anything down too close.
Well, since Hojo apparently dies before the new year according to the timeline, not long at all. Even if we assume that's just being imprecise, I doubt more than a week passes between her waking up and them finding him, since the whole game occurs over less than two months.

As for being in Ivalice while babbling in Mideel? Nah, he was playing Xenogears. He said as much. (Also, the powers of the Zodiac stones are deliberately strange. He may have been taken and replaced literally simultaneously, or never taken, merely copied). What IS canon is that- even Dissidia aside- the worlds are linked multiversally thanks to Gilgamesh.


Oh, also RE: the Shera/ Sierra, Cid at least partially rebuilt the thing, as he is doing so in Barret's novella. The engine is definitely the old technology, as it is mentioned in Dirge as being largely black box technology that they don't yet fully understand.
 
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Starling

Pro Adventurer
#42
Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh though; rules don't apply to him. Gilgamesh can be anything and have as many arms as he wants and no one bats an eye.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#43
Since we know at this point that Cloud's "birthday" in Tactics is a tongue-in-cheek reference to FFVII's release date, I'm going to skip on ahead.
I don't remember anything about Sin coming back.
It happened in FFX -Will-, the audio drama included with Final Fantasy X|X-2 HD Remaster. It's the latest chronological installment in that sub-series.

An entry which should have never happened, and will hopefully be declared outside canon at some point. You should be able to find it on YouTube if you want to torture yourself.
Starling said:
Yunalesca sure but so did Seymour within FF10 and it's safe to say she's gone for good after having turned into a fiend and such.
Agreed.
Starling said:
So now real life comparisons are valid instead of literary interpretation?
Nice shot at snark, but suspension of disbelief is a thing applied to fiction to maintain a sense that it is happening in reality. Something that happens in reality popping up in a fictional narrative shouldn't require suspension of disbelief -- the sky being blue, for instance.

Also, this a completely different topic from whether something from reality has to happen the same way in a work of fiction that it does in reality when plot mechanics specific to that fictional setting are explained to be the cause instead. I brought up reality as an illustration of what was taking place with the (meta)physics. I didn't say that what happens in reality is precisely what occurred within the fiction, nor did I limit my analysis of those fictional circumstances solely to what reality would allow for.

We're discussing a fantasy/sci-fi story, after all.

I'll speak to this more in the thread where we've been discussing it prior to this one, though.

Starling said:
What about how people fade back into the Lifestream to reincarnate? People in the Farplane seem to just hang around with relative ease.
Reincarnation happens in Spira too. Nojima has confirmed it, and it's even mentioned in FFX -- a grieving Spiran visiting the Farplane tells their dead loved one not to come back to live again in a world of such suffering ("I hope you live your next life in a world without Sin. Do not return to Spira").

Starling said:
That's like saying the recurring FF elements like Chocobos, spells, classes etc mean all the FF games happen in the same universe. Can you name some of these other methods of creating summons in FF10? I don't recall any besides the fayth.
Taking it from the top, what we know best as "aeons" is the English localization's name this time around for, as I'm sure you know already, 召喚獣/Shoukan ("summon beasts"). You also know about fayth/Inorigo (祈り子), who are humans who become part of statues and share their power with a summoner. A summoner who has entered into such communion with a fayth can then call forth a majestic entity (usually animal-like) that vaguely resembles the associated fayth statue.

There are also beast cores/Juushin (獣芯), who (as best I understand it anyway) are effectively humans that become summons through some weird-ass process where the intended Juushin either has sex with a summoner or just dies for the expressed purpose of becoming a Juushin. There needs to be a strong bond between them too for these routes to be effective, by the way. A powerful pyrefly construct of the person who became the Juushin can then be summoned. So Juushin seem to differ from normal fayth in that all of them (at least all the ones we've seen) have a summon form that continues to look just as they did before they became aeons, and it's apparently also possible for someone to be a Juushin even while their original body sticks around (sex method).

This stupid Juushin thing is a major plot point in the novel FFX-2.5 ~Cost of Eternity~, which is another case where good taste should have stepped in and stopped Nojima. It's unfathomably bad.

Starling said:
Who says that lost civilization isn't the Cetra?
Common sense. A nomadic, earth-worshipping people -- who didn't even turn trees into shelters, and whose only known city consisted of structures and pathways modified out of abandoned shells -- is not going to have built something like the Shera.

Which looks nothing like any Cetran technology we've seen otherwise, for that matter.

Also to be considered is that around the time the Compilation was early in development, Kitase and Nojima had spoken of "filling in" some gaps in VII's timeline by using the FFX-VII connection. Do you not think it's related that this stuff about the Shera then starts popping up?

Starling said:
Really, the whole idea of finding an airship buried in the ground and actually being able to use it is ridiculous, let alone technology from some never before mentioned lost civilization is suddenly found right in the middle of everyone trying to pick themselves up in the wake of FF7's ending. Even if Cid had to dig the damn thing up only the very basics of it should still be salvageable, the rest getting heavily overhauled with FF7's technology to be functional, defeating the whole point of it being lost technology from long ago.
This is Final Fantasy. Finding a long-abandoned/buried/submerged airship that still works is a common trope.

Starling said:
The Highwind's bridge looks a lot like the Shera's and it's not like they've had the technology for over 2000 years. Any airship's bridge is going to want to be open, with workstations or whatever to the side, the piloting space with an unobstructed view of where the ship's going and so on.
Of course.
Starling said:
You'll notice that the FF10 airships aren't piloted the same way as the FF7 ones, which is a pretty big difference.
True.
Starling said:
Really, you're just saying they're similar because of the holo-projector thing, which is technology that already exists in FF7, as shown with Bugenhagen's observatory.
Not just that. The overall interior designs are very similar.

Starling said:
As for the outside,




I dislike the design of the Shera's exterior, Bahamut SHIN and the Shadow creepers from ACC but the Shera definitely looks more like the
than any other airship.
I don't think I brought up the outside of the ship being similar. It's not. The Fahrenheit and Celsius look nothing like one another from the outside either, though, so this is a moot point.

Will have to agree that those designs from Advent Children are just awful, but if we're looking at exteriors, the Shera is certainly more similar to the Fahrenheit than the Celsius is. Again, not that I'm going off that.

Starling said:
The Twilight Mexican said:
Starling said:
... and that would be after suspending disbelief that humans and Cetra are from two different planets while being nearly identical ...
Is that a problem for you with FFIV, V or IX? Or with most science fiction? "Aliens look like us" is a trope that's been there from the beginning.

Also, Jenova itself is an alien -- why would we assume the rest of the universe is empty, especially when both Bugenhagen and Lucrecia provide dissertations about other worlds having Lifestreams?
I mean 1:1 no difference, not even stuff like differing phenotypes or some particular ability. Dimensional travel is a whole other thing where you can end up with alternate reality counterparts of the same species with little to no trouble and is more a multiverse thing than different planets existing in a single universe.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up alternate dimensions. I'm talking about aliens from different worlds within the same universe who look like one another, and -- in FFIV and V's case -- could and did interbreed. (I'm aware, by the way, that the two worlds in FFV started out as the same planet, but the result of that is nonetheless that their respective lineages had gone their own ways for a thousand years yet remained compatible. FFIV requires no explanation -- the Lunarians were as alien as could be, yet interbreeding was possible. Similarities could be drawn to the Espers and baseline humans in FFVI.)

I really can't imagine how such a common trope (in this franchise, and in sci-fi in general) strikes you as something that can't overcome the suspension of disbelief.
 
Last edited:
#44
or why there's a flower girl named Aerith in Ivalice who is definitely not the same Aerith from FF7.
Well...that kinda supports the "from-FF7's-perspective-Cloud-is-imagining-FFTactics-entirely" idea. But otherwise, I don't see why it needs an explanation. It's a reference, and, as you say, it's definitely not the same Aerith and Cloud is just as confused. So what's the problem?

Is there any reason to expect whatever got him to and from Ivalice can alter time and doesn't physically transport people? I think your explanation is stretching things quite a bit. Also, while Cloud was pretty out of it in Mideel, he did have some awareness, even if he mostly said nonsense besides what he says right before Ultimate Weapon shows up.
There's no reason to expect anything about the Zodiac Stones. They do all sorts of random shit in FFTactics. Primarily they contain Lucavi demons, but they do everything else from powering ancient battle robots and interdimensional transporters, to resurrecting the dead and regular old teleportation. It's not bending over backwards so much as it's basically canon that Zodiac Stones can do whatever the hell they want to.

I dunno what it's stretching, really, moments later, Tifa is standing on a platform in Cloud's subconscious with a giant, writhing Cloud above her. That Cloud also helped save Ivalice in the meantime doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. You seem to be more going out of your way to declare that it didn't happen, and I'm not sure why especially considering that you're willing to grant that:

Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh though; rules don't apply to him. Gilgamesh can be anything and have as many arms as he wants and no one bats an eye.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
#45
Ivalice is absolutely its own reality, and not merely Cloud's imaginings. It has a past and a future past the War of the Lions. And that reality has entities in it that are more than capable of A: Ripping people out of their natural time and space, having them go on a merry adventure over months if not years, and merely return to the time and space they left, unaged and unchanged. To say nothing of B: Doing all that, AND warping reality itself.

(And both of those are merely artifacts, there are stronger beings still lurking beyond)

Yoinking and Replacing Cloud is barely any different than what happened to Luso at the start (and end) of FFTA2.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
#46
Since we know at this point that Cloud's "birthday" in Tactics is a tongue-in-cheek reference to FFVII's release date, I'm going to skip on ahead.
The whole thing's just a reference, not just his birthday.


I don't remember anything about Sin coming back.
It happened in FFX -Will-, the audio drama included with Final Fantasy X|X-2 HD Remaster. It's the latest chronological installment in that sub-series.

An entry which should have never happened, and will hopefully be declared outside canon at some point. You should be able to find it on YouTube if you want to torture yourself.
That thing is such an atrocious violation of everything canon it simply can't exist in the same continuity as FFX. I could've sworn it was considered non-canon the same way as the Zelda CDI games. Do you really want to tie that kind of thing to FFVII? There's no reason to acknowledge such blatant contradictions as canon over FX.


Starling said:
So now real life comparisons are valid instead of literary interpretation?
Nice shot at snark, but suspension of disbelief is a thing applied to fiction to maintain a sense that it is happening in reality. Something that happens in reality popping up in a fictional narrative shouldn't require suspension of disbelief -- the sky being blue, for instance.

Also, this a completely different topic from whether something from reality has to happen the same way in a work of fiction that it does in reality when plot mechanics specific to that fictional setting are explained to be the cause instead. I brought up reality as an illustration of what was taking place with the (meta)physics. I didn't say that what happens in reality is precisely what occurred within the fiction, nor did I limit my analysis of those fictional circumstances solely to what reality would allow for.

We're discussing a fantasy/sci-fi story, after all.

I'll speak to this more in the thread where we've been discussing it prior to this one, though.
I was pointing out a double standard. To argue this and then what you said in the AC/CC Buster Sword thread is what I'd call hypocrisy, especially having read my most recent post. Either both are valid or neither. Otherwise you're trying to have it both ways. They're not different, even if you think they are.


Starling said:
What about how people fade back into the Lifestream to reincarnate? People in the Farplane seem to just hang around with relative ease.
Reincarnation happens in Spira too. Nojima has confirmed it, and it's even mentioned in FFX -- a grieving Spiran visiting the Farplane tells their dead loved one not to come back to live again in a world of such suffering ("I hope you live your next life in a world without Sin. Do not return to Spira").
That doesn't look much like a confirmation so much as a maybe. I'm pretty sure no one in FF7 gets to choose when they reincarnate. They just fade into the Lifestream and then who knows when what used to be them gets used for new life, materia etc.


Starling said:
That's like saying the recurring FF elements like Chocobos, spells, classes etc mean all the FF games happen in the same universe. Can you name some of these other methods of creating summons in FF10? I don't recall any besides the fayth.
Taking it from the top, what we know best as "aeons" is the English localization's name this time around for, as I'm sure you know already, 召喚獣/Shoukan ("summon beasts"). You also know about fayth/Inorigo (祈り子), who are humans who become part of statues and share their power with a summoner. A summoner who has entered into such communion with a fayth can then call forth a majestic entity (usually animal-like) that vaguely resembles the associated fayth statue.

There are also beast cores/Juushin (獣芯), who (as best I understand it anyway) are effectively humans that become summons through some weird-ass process where the intended Juushin either has sex with a summoner or just dies for the expressed purpose of becoming a Juushin. There needs to be a strong bond between them too for these routes to be effective, by the way. A powerful pyrefly construct of the person who became the Juushin can then be summoned. So Juushin seem to differ from normal fayth in that all of them (at least all the ones we've seen) have a summon form that continues to look just as they did before they became aeons, and it's apparently also possible for someone to be a Juushin even while their original body sticks around (sex method).

This stupid Juushin thing is a major plot point in the novel FFX-2.5 ~Cost of Eternity~, which is another case where good taste should have stepped in and stopped Nojima. It's unfathomably bad.
I thought there was only one unimaginably terrible FF10 spinoff that's so bad it's probably not even canon. Seriously, that stuff has to be some trolling otherwise. FF10 seems to keep dying as a consistent requirement for making a summon, whether it's the fayth or the final aeon. The whole sex = summon without dying is inconsistent, especially when final aeons cost the summoner's life as well. There's no consistency to that.


Starling said:
Who says that lost civilization isn't the Cetra?
Common sense. A nomadic, earth-worshipping people -- who didn't even turn trees into shelters, and whose only known city consisted of structures and pathways modified out of abandoned shells -- is not going to have built something like the Shera.

Which looks nothing like any Cetran technology we've seen otherwise, for that matter.

Also to be considered is that around the time the Compilation was early in development, Kitase and Nojima had spoken of "filling in" some gaps in VII's timeline by using the FFX-VII connection. Do you not think it's related that this stuff about the Shera then starts popping up?
The Cetra had that water projector though, so there's that. They'd also have a use for methods of travelling aside from on foot and considering how much of the Shera is blatantly Cid's work, it's hard to tell what isn't. If not the Cetra the lost civilization is far more likely to be human ancestors native to the planet rather than Spira.


Starling said:
Really, the whole idea of finding an airship buried in the ground and actually being able to use it is ridiculous, let alone technology from some never before mentioned lost civilization is suddenly found right in the middle of everyone trying to pick themselves up in the wake of FF7's ending. Even if Cid had to dig the damn thing up only the very basics of it should still be salvageable, the rest getting heavily overhauled with FF7's technology to be functional, defeating the whole point of it being lost technology from long ago.
This is Final Fantasy. Finding a long-abandoned/buried/submerged airship that still works is a common trope.
Doesn't mean it needs to apply here.


Starling said:
Really, you're just saying they're similar because of the holo-projector thing, which is technology that already exists in FF7, as shown with Bugenhagen's observatory.
Not just that. The overall interior designs are very similar.
Similar to the Highwind as well, making it Cid's design preference rather than pre-existing layout. I wouldn't be surprised if the engine was the only part they salvaged. The thing is, even that's a bit odd considering the Shera apparently runs on oil, so Cid would have to understand the engine pretty well to get it to run on that, which would go against the claim it's some blackbox technology.


Starling said:
As for the outside,




I dislike the design of the Shera's exterior, Bahamut SHIN and the Shadow creepers from ACC but the Shera definitely looks more like the
than any other airship.
I don't think I brought up the outside of the ship being similar. It's not. The Fahrenheit and Celsius look nothing like one another from the outside either, though, so this is a moot point.

Will have to agree that those designs from Advent Children are just awful, but if we're looking at exteriors, the Shera is certainly more similar to the Fahrenheit than the Celsius is. Again, not that I'm going off that.
Comparing the outsides is still relevant for the Shera and Highwind, since it shows that the overall design was all Cid.


Starling said:
The Twilight Mexican said:
Is that a problem for you with FFIV, V or IX? Or with most science fiction? "Aliens look like us" is a trope that's been there from the beginning.

Also, Jenova itself is an alien -- why would we assume the rest of the universe is empty, especially when both Bugenhagen and Lucrecia provide dissertations about other worlds having Lifestreams?
I mean 1:1 no difference, not even stuff like differing phenotypes or some particular ability. Dimensional travel is a whole other thing where you can end up with alternate reality counterparts of the same species with little to no trouble and is more a multiverse thing than different planets existing in a single universe.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up alternate dimensions. I'm talking about aliens from different worlds within the same universe who look like one another, and -- in FFIV and V's case -- could and did interbreed. (I'm aware, by the way, that the two worlds in FFV started out as the same planet, but the result of that is nonetheless that their respective lineages had gone their own ways for a thousand years yet remained compatible. FFIV requires no explanation -- the Lunarians were as alien as could be, yet interbreeding was possible. Similarities could be drawn to the Espers and baseline humans in FFVI.)

I really can't imagine how such a common trope (in this franchise, and in sci-fi in general) strikes you as something that can't overcome the suspension of disbelief.
FFIV's Lunarians have traits/abilities that set them apart from humans, such as their light skin tone and hair, innate affinity for magic, apparent weakness to meteor and their longer lifespans. Since humans only differ from Cetra in having lost the ability to communicate with the planet as well as direct the Lifestream and seem to retain the potential to regain that ability, Lunarians and Espers aren't really applicable. Remember that I'm talking about the inhabitants of two different planets existing in the same universe being pretty much the same. Even when mixing two species that shouldn't be compatible, fiction tends to at the very least stick to the inheritance of traits from both sides, which make the individual's status as a hybrid pretty obvious.


FFV has the interdimensional rift, and it actually takes a very, very long time to get the genetic differences that would make them non-compatible after the separation. After all, wolves, dingoes and coyotes can interbreed, lions and tigers can interbreed, cats and servals can interbreed, grizzly bears and polar bears can interbreed and all of those hybrids are fertile. FFIX has two planets fusing together, which wiped out everything on the surface of one. Since they're in the process of merging and one got repopulated after that started, that can account for biological compatibility.

or why there's a flower girl named Aerith in Ivalice who is definitely not the same Aerith from FF7.
Well...that kinda supports the "from-FF7's-perspective-Cloud-is-imagining-FFTactics-entirely" idea. But otherwise, I don't see why it needs an explanation. It's a reference, and, as you say, it's definitely not the same Aerith and Cloud is just as confused. So what's the problem?
The problem is treating references as canon crossovers when we already have enough trouble sorting out the compilation. Tactics is its own reality so the Cloud and Aerith who show up there would simply be AU versions of FF7 Cloud and Aerith.


Is there any reason to expect whatever got him to and from Ivalice can alter time and doesn't physically transport people? I think your explanation is stretching things quite a bit. Also, while Cloud was pretty out of it in Mideel, he did have some awareness, even if he mostly said nonsense besides what he says right before Ultimate Weapon shows up.
There's no reason to expect anything about the Zodiac Stones. They do all sorts of random shit in FFTactics. Primarily they contain Lucavi demons, but they do everything else from powering ancient battle robots and interdimensional transporters, to resurrecting the dead and regular old teleportation. It's not bending over backwards so much as it's basically canon that Zodiac Stones can do whatever the hell they want to.
I think there should be a distinction between powering a device that does something and being able to do it on their own. I believe he showed up through an interdimensional device that made him just show up from wherever and we're supposed to assume he was returned the same way. What do we know about that device's capabilities? As for what can and can't be expected from the Zodiac stones on their own, it'd be best to simply stick to the list of things they've been established to be capable of doing rather than just tack new ones on top of what's already there.


I dunno what it's stretching, really, moments later, Tifa is standing on a platform in Cloud's subconscious with a giant, writhing Cloud above her. That Cloud also helped save Ivalice in the meantime doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. You seem to be more going out of your way to declare that it didn't happen, and I'm not sure why especially considering that you're willing to grant that:

Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh though; rules don't apply to him. Gilgamesh can be anything and have as many arms as he wants and no one bats an eye.
Wandering inside people's minds have weird layouts all the time. Tifa didn't teleport or anything and most of Cloud's mind consists of walking into memories. Honestly, I don't see why anything that references FF7 as an easter egg or just for fun automatically has to be canon. Nintendo let Hyrule Warriors, a game celebrating and referencing content from all over the Legend of Zelda franchise with dimensional travel and such happen but don't consider it canon. Likewise, just because Tactics felt like having a Cloud cameo and Dissidia exists as an anniversary celebration of FF in the form of a fighting game doesn't mean they're canon either. You can toy around with how it could happen but it simply isn't and it's best that they aren't.


Ivalice is absolutely its own reality, and not merely Cloud's imaginings. It has a past and a future past the War of the Lions. And that reality has entities in it that are more than capable of A: Ripping people out of their natural time and space, having them go on a merry adventure over months if not years, and merely return to the time and space they left, unaged and unchanged. To say nothing of B: Doing all that, AND warping reality itself.

(And both of those are merely artifacts, there are stronger beings still lurking beyond)

Yoinking and Replacing Cloud is barely any different than what happened to Luso at the start (and end) of FFTA2.
If they're not in the same Tactics game, then I don't think they're around to deal with Cloud and any other interdimensional cameos when they happen. Didn't one of the Tactics games happen in a fictive version of Ivalice?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#47
That thing is such an atrocious violation of everything canon it simply can't exist in the same continuity as FFX. I could've sworn it was considered non-canon the same way as the Zelda CDI games. Do you really want to tie that kind of thing to FFVII? There's no reason to acknowledge such blatant contradictions as canon over FX.
You're putting me in the very disgusting position of feeling like I'm about to defend FFX -Will- in some way.

Where are the contradictions? There aren't any.

And you're demonstrating that you still don't get what canon is when you ask me if I want that travesty attached. Obviously not. But what I want, what you want, what all of us want means nothing.

Starling said:
I was pointing out a double standard. To argue this and then what you said in the AC/CC Buster Sword thread is what I'd call hypocrisy, especially having read my most recent post. Either both are valid or neither. Otherwise you're trying to have it both ways. They're not different, even if you think they are.
Sorry (I'm not sorry), they're extremely different.

One is you saying "This thing happened in the fictional setting the same way it did in reality. Because that's how it happens in reality."

The other is me saying "This shouldn't be an imposition on your suspension of disbelief, as it's a thing you've witnessed in reality anyway."

So, what's going on here?:

A) I've said you shouldn't have any trouble believing something you see in a game, as it's something you have already seen in reality

B) What you said (that you're now trying to equate to what I said) is that something that happened in a game has to happen the same way it does in reality

THESE STATEMENTS ARE NOT REMOTELY SIMILAR.

You know what would be the same? Suggesting that Cloud having identity issues is stretching your suspension of disbelief.

Now, because I expect you're going to make me do this later if I don't do it now, let me elaborate:

A planet's spirit energy is comparable to the elemental building blocks in our universe. It's "what allows planets to be planets." We're told this.

Well, in reality we have seen that the building blocks of planets can manifest in different ways on different planets. So it's no stretch of suspension of disbelief to see what has been identified as the fundamental building blocks of planets within a fiction manifesting in different ways on different planets.

It's something you've seen. It's something you know happens. There's no twisting of suspension of disbelief required. Not every planet is the same. The end.

The analogy is the same with Cloud's identity issues. You know of that sort of stuff happening to people in reality. It may not involve magic and aliens in reality, but it's a thing that happens in reality -- so you should have no trouble believing that it happens in this fiction, which happens to include magic and aliens.

Let that be the end of this. If you respond to this point, do not continue this "hypocrisy"/"double standard" thing. It's demonstrably not true and you know it at this point if you didn't before.

What I would have had to do for this to be a double standard is to say "Of course things can be different on Spira from on FFVII's world and them still exist in the same universe. Hydrgoen, helium, etc. blah, blah, blah -- and those elements from reality are manifesting differently on Spira, so that's why things are different."

Did I do that? Did I force the mechanics of the real world into the fiction? Am I arguing that the fiction must conform to the mechanics of the real world? Am I insisting -- nay, demanding -- that real-world elements be responsible for any differences between Spira and FFVII's world, then insisting there's a contradiction at work if someone says "spirit energy"?

No, I'm not. I'm not doing any of that.

So, again, do not let your next post be a further accusation about this hypocrisy/double standard crap. I'm not going down a similar road to that "you didn't quote your source" thing with you again.

Starling said:
That doesn't look much like a confirmation so much as a maybe. I'm pretty sure no one in FF7 gets to choose when they reincarnate. They just fade into the Lifestream and then who knows when what used to be them gets used for new life, materia etc.
No one has said anything of the sort happens on Spira.

Starling said:
I thought there was only one unimaginably terrible FF10 spinoff that's so bad it's probably not even canon.
"So bad it's not canon"? Seriously, do you know that's not how canon works?

Starling said:
Seriously, that stuff has to be some trolling otherwise. FF10 seems to keep dying as a consistent requirement for making a summon, whether it's the fayth or the final aeon. The whole sex = summon without dying is inconsistent, especially when final aeons cost the summoner's life as well. There's no consistency to that.
It's previously unknown information, like some SOLDIERs not having blue-green eyes. We didn't call inconsistency on the different (pun incoming) consistencies of milk and water when we were kids and found out that not all fluids are the same, did we?

Starling said:
The Cetra had that water projector though, so there's that.
You mean the magical projector that works by sticking (what looks like) a tree branch in a hole in the ground to lower a stone pillar, releasing a flow of water that runs across a dead-looking tree sticking out of a stone platform? That technology? Not mechanical gadgets and circuitry and big metal birds like the Shera?

Starling said:
The Twilight Mexican said:
Starling said:
Really, the whole idea of finding an airship buried in the ground and actually being able to use it is ridiculous, let alone technology from some never before mentioned lost civilization is suddenly found right in the middle of everyone trying to pick themselves up in the wake of FF7's ending. Even if Cid had to dig the damn thing up only the very basics of it should still be salvageable, the rest getting heavily overhauled with FF7's technology to be functional, defeating the whole point of it being lost technology from long ago.
This is Final Fantasy. Finding a long-abandoned/buried/submerged airship that still works is a common trope.
Doesn't mean it needs to apply here.
What it means is you don't have a leg to stand on implying that it's out of place.

Starling said:
Similar to the Highwind as well, making it Cid's design preference rather than pre-existing layout.
It looks nothing like the Highwind's interior.

Starling said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the engine was the only part they salvaged.
I would since this motherfucker in the engine room says

“While this airship is named after Cid’s wife, construction of the vessel wasn’t performed by the captain at all.
Our team of loyal scientists here at the World Regenesis Organization or those criminals at Shinra weren’t involved, either.
To tell you the truth, the ship is not even from this era. It is a relic from a lost civilization.
Most of the machinery in the engine room is boxed up in black casing, so we don’t even know what half of it does.
There’s no need to worry. Even though we cannot reproduce the technology, we can still put it to good use.
I can almost guarantee there will be no problems.
Almost…”

Starling said:
FFIV's Lunarians have traits/abilities that set them apart from humans, such as their light skin tone and hair, innate affinity for magic, apparent weakness to meteor and their longer lifespans. Since humans only differ from Cetra in having lost the ability to communicate with the planet as well as direct the Lifestream and seem to retain the potential to regain that ability, Lunarians and Espers aren't really applicable. Remember that I'm talking about the inhabitants of two different planets existing in the same universe being pretty much the same. Even when mixing two species that shouldn't be compatible, fiction tends to at the very least stick to the inheritance of traits from both sides, which make the individual's status as a hybrid pretty obvious.
Your claim was that it's a tough pill to swallow for two planets in the same (fictional) universe to have similarly human lifeforms. It was an absurd claim, as any geek could tell you.

It was also absurd because here is where the double standard in this discussion is taking place. You insist that lifeforms on different planets shouldn't be the same even while insisting that the planets themselves should be.

It's almost like you're grasping at straws to attempt undermining an idea you just personally dislike. :monster:

For the record, by the way, there's large differences in human lifeforms even on Spira. Ronso, Guado, Hypello, the Musicians, Peruperu, Yevonites, Al Bhed (these last two bear listing separately, as they do have physiological differences).

While on the topic of the Cetra and humans, by the way, the Guado are extremely similar to them. Living close to the Farplane has made them more attuned to the planet (they know when the Farplane is becoming unstable, for instance), they can detect the unsent, and they can control pyreflies (i.e. free floating spirit energy).

Starling said:
I think there should be a distinction between powering a device that does something and being able to do it on their own. I believe he showed up through an interdimensional device that made him just show up from wherever and we're supposed to assume he was returned the same way. What do we know about that device's capabilities? As for what can and can't be expected from the Zodiac stones on their own, it'd be best to simply stick to the list of things they've been established to be capable of doing rather than just tack new ones on top of what's already there.
Almost everything they do is done on their own, including reviving a dead person and teleporting people.

Starling said:
Honestly, I don't see why anything that references FF7 as an easter egg or just for fun automatically has to be canon.
Who has said it has to be? The article this thread is about kind of says precisely the opposite of that.

All that's happened here is that the things that fit without conflict or have explanations provided have been identified.

Starling said:
Nintendo let Hyrule Warriors, a game celebrating and referencing content from all over the Legend of Zelda franchise with dimensional travel and such happen but don't consider it canon. Likewise, just because Tactics felt like having a Cloud cameo and Dissidia exists as an anniversary celebration of FF in the form of a fighting game doesn't mean they're canon either. You can toy around with how it could happen but it simply isn't and it's best that they aren't.
Let's not push this any further, folks! Someone with the authority to overrule Ultimanias and what developers have said in interviews is here to set the record straight!
 
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#48
Ivalice is absolutely its own reality, and not merely Cloud's imaginings. It has a past and a future past the War of the Lions. And that reality has entities in it that are more than capable of A: Ripping people out of their natural time and space, having them go on a merry adventure over months if not years, and merely return to the time and space they left, unaged and unchanged. To say nothing of B: Doing all that, AND warping reality itself.

(And both of those are merely artifacts, there are stronger beings still lurking beyond)

Yoinking and Replacing Cloud is barely any different than what happened to Luso at the start (and end) of FFTA2.
Yeah, I know. I was just saying that, from the FF7 Universe's point of view. It could very well have been something Cloud dreamed up. What with who knows the nature of other universes and all that meta business :monster:
 

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Tim, Ryu
#49
Ivalice is absolutely its own reality, and not merely Cloud's imaginings. It has a past and a future past the War of the Lions. And that reality has entities in it that are more than capable of A: Ripping people out of their natural time and space, having them go on a merry adventure over months if not years, and merely return to the time and space they left, unaged and unchanged. To say nothing of B: Doing all that, AND warping reality itself.

(And both of those are merely artifacts, there are stronger beings still lurking beyond)

Yoinking and Replacing Cloud is barely any different than what happened to Luso at the start (and end) of FFTA2.
Yeah, I know. I was just saying that, from the FF7 Universe's point of view. It could very well have been something Cloud dreamed up. What with who knows the nature of other universes and all that meta business :monster:
Yeah, if Cloud remembers it at all, that's probably what HE thinks about it.
 
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