FFVII CHARACTER SMACKDOWN - The Neutrals Championship

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana




So if you'd like to learn a little bit about how I came to the conclusion I did, I go into a little detail in my previous vote post which you can find here. I used mostly the same formula but additionally allocated some minor points here and there for the posts that made me laugh the most. There were a lot.

- After 48 posts had been made in the argument it found its way to a total draw according to points. Some compelling points and arguments had forced it either way a great deal and yet equilibrium was reached after a great deal of back and forth.
- The deciding point was given for the stupidest reason.
- You people talk a lot of shit


TIME GUARDIAN

It honestly came all the way to the wire on this one. I started at 0 on my phone calculator and started going off the points for the argument (adding to the total for points in favour of Cloud's Mom and subtracting in favour of TG). After 48 posts in the argument had been made, the score was back to 0.

I then went and added some small points for creativity, out-of-the-box thinking and humour. Since both teams had been pretty great and this, for the most part it was still balancing out. Until the final page.

In a humorous screencap from Discord, BforB brought an argument to the table that Ergo had changed sides, allured by Cloud's Mum's arse.
In a STUNNING counterattack, Ergo fired back with a comment from B declaring Time Guardian HER PERFECT MAN.
B scored a single point for her funny screencap that was relevant to the battle, but Ergo's counter was perfect. He fought fire with fire.



Now this is not to say this was what actually won the argument, just the final points to be added. :P Both teams were responsible for some excellent posts that hit the full 5 points I award for a great argument. I can say for sure that Team Chocobo (And Cloud's Mum) earned the most amount of max point posts.

As before I aimed to give an additional 5 points to what I considered the best post of the argument. For me it was this one by none other than Fancy. She cleverly argued against points that Team Chocobo had been relying on a lot beforehand and turned the tables on them.

It was really hard to choose an MVP this time. There were a whole bunch of team members who saw the argument through from start to finish. Everybody stayed consistent with the nature of their arguments. The only way in which anybody stood out more than the others was in terms of comedy and for that reason.

BforB

earns my MVP award this round. ^_^

Great work to everybody involved once again. I thoroughly enjoyed this fight and am actually bummed I can't choose both these characters in the next Smash game. :huh:
 
AKA
Fancy
Remember! This is a matter of spectators AS WELL as audience members voting. And they have spoken.





VICTORY GOES TO TEAM MOOGLE


✧・゚: *✧・゚:*BforB*:・゚✧*:・゚✧


  1. BforB
  2. Channy
  3. ChipNoir - spectating
  4. Clement Rage
  5. Elessar
  6. Ergo Proxy
  7. Fancy - spectates when necessary
  8. Joe - spectating
  9. LicoriceAllsorts
  10. Minato
  11. solo player sab - spectating

Let me know if anyone has a problem with this list and look forward to the next post (whenever I have time for it tehe).
 
AKA
Fancy
Battle Post - ROUND 1-3

Round 1-3

Your Teams...



Ergo Proxy
LicoriceAllsorts
Minato




Channy
BforB
Clement Rage


Your Champions...

VS



The Location...


Fish Room (Forgotten Capital)

Doctor - A considerate physician who runs a clinic down in Mideel and has experience with cases involving mako poisoning...
Are you ready Team Chocobo?


Elder Hargo - A wise man of Cosmo Canyon who doesn’t believe in the Promised Land, but also doesn’t believe that such an idea is merely a fairytale...
Are you ready Team Moogle?


___________________

The countdown begins when the first team player posts!
 
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Elder Hargo has a clear terrain advantage here. He's one of the foremost experts on the Cetra, and they're in the City of the Ancients. Meanwhile, the Doctor, a man of science has little understanding of mystical things, he could do nothing to help Cloud with a spiritual ailment, and outsourced his care to his loved ones, how negligent is that? He takes every opportunity to leave the room and get away from his patient, that's not a man with the determination or will to win a fight. I mean, the nurse is the one that can actually restore HP and MP, the Doc takes every opportunity to do nothing at all.

Elder Hargo is also old enough to have proper combat experience against the Gi, and has familiarity with Cetra lore. If anyone can weaponise that fish, it's Hargo.
 
AKA
Fancy

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww SHIT!

Let the record show that the battle phase of Round 1-3 was initiated by Team Moogle on 12th May, 23:03 GMT.

All players have until...
14th May, 23:03 GMT
...to make their cases.

Here's a link to a time zone converter in case anyone needs it.

Will this be Team Moogle's 3rd victory in a row?? Will Team Chocobo deliver a counterargument that will blow the socks off spectators?? Oooh, I can scarcely contain my excitement!!

Best of luck to both teams!



 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
I’m gonna wait for a counter argument because Clement made a fantastic opening statement there, but...

Hey B, hows it feel being on the winning team for once? :monster:
 
AKA
Minato
Elder Hargo is a fan of the Ancients, not an expert. Being in the Forgotten City is more likely to distract Hargo from the fight more then anything else. Which he can ill afford given that he is up against a much younger man, Doc is by no means young, yet Hargo probably has about 50 years on him.

As for combat experience, let's try to remember that hippy central is actually much much more connected to the outside world and urbanised then Mideel. Mideel is an harsh place, with no easily accessible shores, Mako energy in a monster infested forest that their town have no natural defenses against. It's plagued by earthquakes and the Lifestream sometimes gushes out there. Powerful monsters like the green dragon that called for SOLDIER intervention after leaks at the Mako Reactor in Nibelheim are likely produced there all the time.

When the Meteor comes to destroy the Planet this is a place where it's greeted with quiet resignation of those who feel this generally falls in line with their lot in life thus far. I'd wager the contents of it's weapon shop as rather more used by it's citizens then the Tiger Lily Arms Shop. Mideel doesn't offer franchised stores that ship food in and pilgrims that come and spend their money. Food has to be gathered in the jungle in Mideel.

As for the Doctor's will and determination. Yes; He steps outside to give Cloud and Tifa some room, he doesn't go alone, he candidly tells the others to go with him, when the enormous man with a gun for an arm that just barged into his clinic mumbles his misgivings about his new patient under his breath, the doc doesn't hesitate to tell him speak up. He's not intimidated by a group of armed strangers. A lone geriatric old man isn't either.
 
We see one earthquake, which flattens the town. That's not how a place that is used to earthquakes reacts, they'd build their buildings to take the hits if it was a regular occurrence. Tifa has to suggest they move Cloud before the it occurs to the doctor. He doesn't seem experienced with this kind of thing.

Elder Hargo says his job is to gather the wisdom of the Ancients, and Cosmo Canyon is the foremost authority on the Cetra and the Planet. Bugenhagen is able to figure out how to work their machinery almost immediately. If there's any kind of security system, Hargo will be able to turn it on.

Talk of dragons is supposition, they seem native to the Nibel mountains anyway. Isn't it the Genesis copies that were the problem and the Makonoids? You can't fit dragons in those Mako tanks.

Mideel is described as a 'sleepy resort town' by one of its residents, not some harsh unrelenting battle for survival. It's also extremely fertile and lush, making gathering food far more easy than in the barren stone wastes of Cosmo Canyon, which is required to be fortified against threats.

Cosmo Canyon is in the middle of a barren maze of Canyons where there is an active threat to the town in living memory through the Gi. Elder Hargo most likely fought in that war, the same one that killed Red XIII's parents and drove his species to the brink of extinction. There's no sense of an active, organised threat to the town of Mideel, they rely on AVALANCHE to fend off the only threat that arrives.

Are we sure the old man isn't intimidated? No matter what answer the party gives, he allows them to take the (valuable) elixir with no further argument. That's a man saving face after being blatantly robbed.
 
AKA
Minato
You visit Mideel because you are told that the Lifestream gushes out there sometimes, not always but in bursts, we go on to see how this goes about: Earthquakes. This is a big one as the doctor himself says but that doesn't mean it's first and only. In Kalm you are told to go Mideel specifically to meet a doctor who has experience with the Lifestream.

As for Nibelheim, when the truck is attacked Sephiroth says that this must be the monster, when they arrive in Nibelheim the team remarks that you can smell the Mako in the air, as such the populace has retreated into their houses and there is no one around. The Makonoids are safely in their tanks. In Nibelheim, this is a special circumstance brought about by malfunction in the reactor that they hope is resolved by outside intervention, in Mideel locale, this is just how it is. The Lifestream naturally plagues the land here and the doctor has made a business of dealing with it.

As for the claim that Cosmo Canyon is in some barren waste.



It's like 10 minutes away from the main highway.

Also Buganhagen he is mentioned by Red XIII as being a former Shin-Ra employee, it is far more likely that his aptidute for understanding machinery stems from a unnaturally long lifetime of operating them, Hargo is by no means the next best thing to him.
 
Perhaps Elder Hargo did have the honour of fighting the Gi. Perhaps if Elder Hargo (and the other two-legged inhabitants of Cosmo Canyon) had been half-way decent fighters, Seto would not have needed to give his life in their defence. The truth is, Cosmo Canyoners are pacifists; they don't need to fight, and they don't know how to fight, because for long generations Nanaki's ancestors have protected them.

Elder Hargo's long life is not his claim to fame, it's a badge of his shame, his inability to fight even to protect the thing that mattered to him the most. If he can't fight to defend Cosmo Canyon, how can he hope to triumph in a meaninglessly smack-down against a stranger who means nothing to him?

Let's not forget what the shopkeeper told Cloud: 'The people of this canyon hate to compete.'

Oh, welcome.
The people of this canyon hate to compete. So almost everything here are replicas.
But that's all right. Some of them you can really use.
You can't train for battle without competing.

As well as lacking any kind of martial arts training, Elder Hargo's mental faculties don't seem to be as sharp as they used to be. He struggles to remember where he put things:

Elder Hargo
Where did I put it...? I know it's around here...
And he constantly contradicts himself. One minute he's telling you it's his job to collect legends, the next he's rebuking you, "I'd appreciate it if you don't talk to me about such foolish things as legends and old wives tales." Does he even know what he's doing any more? Can he be trusted to remember he's in an actual fight? Or will he go, "Oh, look, a goldfish! Shiny!" and toddle off to stare into the water, having forgotten where he is and why he came there? I think we all know the answer.

The kindest thing would be for Bugenhagen to respectfully decline, on Hargo's behalf, the invitation to partake in this tournament, allowing the good Doctor to advance unopposed to the next stage. Hargo probably hasn't got many years left; we wouldn't want to hasten him into his grave.
 
NPC Dialogue in Mideel indicates that the Lifestream has only truly started becoming disturbed recently.

I'd lke to correct the record in one regard, in fact its described as a 'quiet hot springs town', as opposed to resort town. 'Quiet' indicates few disturbances or violence.

As for Nibelheim, when the truck is attacked Sephiroth says that this must be the monster
And he's wrong. Dragons are naturally occurring monsters you can encounter in other places around the globe in cave ridden areas, whether there's a reactor nearby or not. There's no facility in the Nibelheim reactor for making dragons. And Mideel has no reactor anyway. It has easily accessible beaches just fine. But no Dragons we ever see. Meanwhile, there are still Dragons in the mountains years later after the reactor is fixed.

Your own photo shows nothing to indicate that Cosmo Canyon isn't a barren wasteland. There's no greenery there. Further, the roadsign indicates that it's 80 units of measurement away. Whatever they measure distance with in that world, that ain't ten minutes even as the crow flies, never mind navigating twisting canyons that can damage even durable craft that can traverse river and desert. We do however know that the Highwind can only land some distance away as the terrain is too inhospitable closer to the town. Cosmo Canyon is one of the only towns on the Planet that maintains a guard on the front gate.

Bugenhagen is brought to the City of the Ancients because of his knowledge of Cetra lore, and it's a Cetra machine I'm referring to, not a Shinra design. And Elder Hargo is acknowledged to collect Cetra lore as well.

Seto gave his life because he was in the secret cave, while everyone else was battling the rest of the Gi at the front. They don't need to buy weapons, because the veterans maintain their own. They don't compete, because there are enough battles with Desert Sahagin just collecting the post.

In Mideel, the owner of the Weapons store complains about how dead sales are, she has to frantically solicit business even after that panicked shopper buys up everything pre Meteorfall. And the doctor will have to fight unarmed, because Chocobo lady bought up any available weapons already.

A historian will tell you you need to be discerning in your sources when gathering lore. He doesn't want to listen to Cloud's stories because he won't get anything from Cloud he doesn't already know.

So we have hardened veteran Hargo from a town that has known battle in the past, vs a Doctor with no weapons (because Chocobo lady bought them all) and no help (because he doesn't have any loved ones to press gang into working for him or the nurse that actually does all the work for him), in an unfamiliar location. This is a man whose medical advice is always 'wait and see', who is so ignorant of his surroundings that he doesn't think anyone was seriously hurt in the quake despite the weapon shop owner screaming for her disappeared husband thirty feet away. A man so disposed towards doing nothing that he's likely to just surrender to spare himself the effort of acting.
 
Seto gave his life because he was in the secret cave, while everyone else was battling the rest of the Gi at the front.
What front? There is no mention of any front in the OG. However, it is repeatedly stated that Seto fought the Gi alone.

Bugenhagen
This warrior went through the cave all alone.
Fighting attackers one after another...

Bugenhagen
...The warrior who fought against the Gi.
He kept them from taking even one step into Cosmo Canyon.
But he was never able to return to town...
Look, Nanaki. Look at your father, at the warrior, Seto.

Bugenhagen
You thought that he was a coward and ran away. But he, alone risked his life to protect Cosmo Canyon.
That is your father, Seto. [my italics]

Everything in the OG implies that the people of Cosmo Canyon devote their lives to peaceful pursuits, and are protected by the beings of Nanaki's tribe. Nanaki and his people fight; Hargo and his people don't fight.
 
AKA
Ergo, V
So on one hand we have a medical professional who is the sole doctor on an entire island. This would imply said doctor has a full range of qualifications from minor ailments all the way to full blown surgery. What we can accurately determine from this is that this man has a wealth of knowledge regarding the human body. He also has a full set of medical tools, regardless of his town having all its weapons bought out (whoever heard of conducting surgery with a sword)

Then on the other hand we have an old age historian with a love of all things hemp.

What this means is that our doctor is not only equipped enough to kill his counterpart but he has the medical knowledge of how to do it the most efficiently. One slice of a particular artery with a surgical scalpel and it's bye bye elder hargo.

Not happy enough with a single blade to an artery? Ok let's talk pharmaceuticals. A little can help bring back someone from the brink of death, a lot however can kill. Say our doctor leaves a tank of anaesthetic in the house our trepid historian is offline over. How long until he falls asleep totally incapacitated until eventually his body stops breathing altogether?

Still not happy?
Ok let's talk mental prowess, a doctor has to train for several years before they become qualified. This requires dedication and intellect. On the contrast however we have elder hargo who holds no notable degree but has a keen passion for the past and maybe a slight fetish for hemp.
Elder hargo may in fact be more.knowledgeable regarding the terrain in the city of the ancients but it's far more like being thrown into that situation would be more of a hindrance to him as he would be far too busy paying attention to every little detail around him to pick on the true danger creeping up on him from the shadows.

You have often talked about the concept that he is some battle hardened warrior. Let's face it however there is no proof of that whatsoever. The only warriors of Cosmo canyon are nanakis parents, even the guy at the top of the stairs waits till your pretty much in the village before he bats an eyelid and even then his spear is about as much use as a.chocolate fireguard compared to a gun arm.or giant sword.

It's more likely that hargo much like the others in Cosmo canyon is a hippie who wanted to learn about the planet. At least one the doctor faces death with his profession,what's hargo going to do except read about how the ancients may or may not have to thrown rocks at their enemies?
 
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