SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[dunkindonato]

If what Mako has said is true, then yeah. Sephiroth wanted to bait them to change fate, they didnt. Its weird bc....well they pretty much resolved everything right? It came and went in the first game, with little explaining. Maybe as a meta-interpretation of that could mean for the whole Project? Or maybe there is going to be more of it in the nexts installments.

It might just be Sephiroth trying to see how far he could influence them to change fate. It might also be a foretaste of what he'll try to do in later installments: give them glimpses of a future to further tempt them into changing it. Like, show a future where they fail to dissuade them to do what they were destined to do.

 

[pollenainne]

I also saw people saying that Tifa might die in Aeriths place, not sure how serious they were being though. Is that a possibility?

The possibility of this happening is.... tada! 0.00001% Story-wise it's just suicide. Might as well kill Yuffie. lol

What would it even do to the story? Aerith's death makes sense because she's demi god, Tifa is a barmaid. Sure.. Jenova totally does not like alcohol.

Might as well kill Reeve while we're at it because nobody likes Cait Sith.

Love your humor. But I do like Cait Sith

 

[Darudius]

The possibility of this happening is.... tada! 0.00001% Story-wise it's just suicide.

In what way. I could see SE doing it to make it impactful. The majority of the fanbase knows that Aerith dies. They might go: "fuck it let's kill tifa this time around" I'm not saying it's a good idea at all mind you, but it's something I could see them doing. Also I read somewhere that Aerith originally wasnt supposed to die right? Maybe they're correcting that with this alternate timeline stuff idk. Not saying I'd like any of this but I could see Square doing it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That form of impact is similar to the impact one makes by bashing someone's head in with a sledgehammer.

Not all "impacts" are positive impacts.

And no, you read dead wrong. They wanted Aerith to die. That was what they agreed on and believed wholeheartedly.

Believing Aerith to not be killed is makes zero sense when looking at the outside context and narrative context of FFVII.

 

[Darudius]

That form of impact is similar to the impact one makes by bashing someone's head in with a sledgehammer.

Not all "impacts" are positive impacts.

And no, you read dead wrong. They wanted Aerith to die. That was what they agreed on and believed wholeheartedly.

Believing Aerith to not be killed is makes zero sense when looking at the outside context and narrative context of FFVII.

Ah gotcha. Thanks for the info!

 

[pollenainne]

lol! that sledgehammer comment got me.

As for Aerith, they really decided early on that she was going to die. From what I remember, it was between her and Barret, and they thought Barret's death would be too cliche. Tifa was never meant to die. In fact, she was created after they decided to kill off Aerith, I believe.

I'm racking my brains for a scenario that would make a better story for Tifa dying instead of Aerith and I really just don't see the possibility. I love Aerith, and I stopped playing the OG for 3 months after she died. I was thinking of throwing it away actually. And I would love for her to live, but for the sake of the story, she needs to die. I'm sorry Aerith.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I would also keep in mind that, Aerith's story doesn't necessarily end the moment she dies. There's a lot that she gains through this experience and learns about herself. Whether it's through the ending of FF7, the ambiguously canonical Maiden, Lifestream: White, or AC/AC:C, she doesn't just disappear from the story in death—it's kind of important for her character, honestly. As opposed to taking it away, I would imagine them finding ways to optimize her storytelling there.

 

[Theozilla]

Regarding information on the early development of OG, this is what I said in a couple of days ago in another thread:

In early development of FFVII, like so early that Aerith and Tifa were basically one character, it was considered that either Barret or the female protagonist would be killed in the game’s story. It’s not that Barret was ever “supposed” to be killed, it was just a potential idea tossed around during development. Same with Sephiroth and Aerith being siblings or Sephiroth having been Aerith’s ex-boyfriend, etc.

 

[Wol]

So another detail that leads to Seph and the watchers being pals is that they didnt stop him to stab Barret like they did with Cloud when he was about to stab Reno.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...They just revived the stabee and allowed him to live his best life.

That's not really indicative of them being connected or on the same side at all.

 

[Wol]

...They just revived the stabee and allowed him to live his best life.

That's not really indicative of them being connected or on the same side at all.

It is because they were passive this time, they didnt go against Seph directly like they did in literally every other scenario where there was a risk of the future being changed.

 

[pollenainne]

So another detail that leads to Seph and the watchers being pals is that they didnt stop him to stab Barret like they did with Cloud when he was about to stab Reno.

Maybe they were late, lol. Which is why they just healed Barret instead.

 

[rkss]

So another detail that leads to Seph and the watchers being pals is that they didnt stop him to stab Barret like they did with Cloud when he was about to stab Reno.

I think there're two Sephiroths. The one that stabbed Shinra President and Barret is Jenova's Sephiroth (same as OG)
The one that our group fight at the roadway are "time ghosts" Sephiroth.

 

[Pizzachu]

I'm messing around when I say this, but imagine if they healed Aerith. lol

 

[pollenainne]

I'm messing around when I say this, but imagine if they healed Aerith. lol

Can they heal the dead though?

 

[Pizzachu]

I was looking at the FFVIIRemake subreddit and someone had mentioned this:
"The three watchers that you fight at the end of the game have the following text in their Assess descriptions:
It fights with a sword to protect the future that gave it shape.
It fights bare handed to protect the future that gave it shape.
It fights with guns to protect the future that gave it shape.
You can tell from their character models, they are clearly Cloud, Tifa, and Barret."

Since I don't have the game, I can't verify if the models of the Whispers resemble Cloud, Tifa, and Barret. I've only seen screenshots and the Whispers look like blurs or hooded ghosts to me.

 

[oty]

Oh damnnnnn

Now that's some new interesting piece of information.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

To add to that, in the leaks, those three Whispers are all named after colors in Latin. One's red and one's green. I forget the other one off the top of my head. It did make me wonder if we were going to get more color-themed Whispers in later games. Even when we didn't know what the Whispers were at the time.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I like the kitty and the hooman too. Also I think they might create a new character or something that has similar skills/specials and limits to Aerith. Or she lives but as has been mentioned everything goes back to the way it's meant to be at the end.

 

[Pizzachu]

To add to that, in the leaks, those three Whispers are all named after colors in Latin. One's red and one's green. I forget the other one off the top of my head. It did make me wonder if we were going to get more color-themed Whispers in later games. Even when we didn't know what the Whispers were at the time.

Was it croceo (yellow)?

If I'm not getting this straight, then please correct me:

Rubrum (Red) - Sword (Cloud?)
Viridi (Green) - Bare handed (Tifa?)
Croceo (Yellow) - Gun (Barret?)

 

[dunkindonato]

I was looking at the FFVIIRemake subreddit and someone had mentioned this:
"The three watchers that you fight at the end of the game have the following text in their Assess descriptions:
It fights with a sword to protect the future that gave it shape.
It fights bare handed to protect the future that gave it shape.
It fights with guns to protect the future that gave it shape.
You can tell from their character models, they are clearly Cloud, Tifa, and Barret."

Since I don't have the game, I can't verify if the models of the Whispers resemble Cloud, Tifa, and Barret. I've only seen screenshots and the Whispers look like blurs or hooded ghosts to me.

Cloud, Tifa and Barret.....

Or Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yes, it was yellow. I remember thinking the names were funny and looking them up on google.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So now that we've begun to wrap our heads around what Seph is possibly up to and a little bit of the possible how(s), I find the most confusing remaining part of the ending sequences for me to be all the attention on Zack. What is the narrative objective there?

Going back to look at it more closely and compare it to the depictions of his death from "Crisis Core" and the original game, I do think something was changed in the past with Zack after all (beyond the obvious, with that dome thing exploding). I don't think it necessarily means Zack lived much longer than before, but he definitely did survive longer than in either of the prior depictions.

In both the original game and CC, he had been fatally shot and left on the cliff edge just before it started raining. The rain begins to fall while Cloud is crawling towards Zack.

In the final scene of FFVIIR, we can see Zack carrying Cloud towards Midgar after the rain has already begun.

It also strikes me as noteworthy that CC's depiction of Zack's final moments on his feet begin with the camera focusing on a helicopter flying over him at the cliff edge when the remaining three soldiers are about to bring him down. This is noteworthy because when FFVIIR cuts back to Zack after this game's final boss, the first thing we're shown is a wrecked helicopter -- as if to clue us in that this is different.

Then we get the "Original" Stamp's Champs ad blowing away and the (healing?) gold snow falling on Zack.

(I suspect it may have healing properties because when one of these gold "snowflakes" lands on Biggs, he awakens.)

So another detail that leads to Seph and the watchers being pals is that they didnt stop him to stab Barret like they did with Cloud when he was about to stab Reno.

They tried to, though. They tried getting between them and pulling Barret away. Seph then went for the skewer and swatted away the Whispers who promptly swarmed him while another Whisper immediately went to work reviving Barret.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So now that we've begun to wrap our heads around what Seph is possibly up to and a little bit of the possible how(s), I find the most confusing remaining part of the ending sequences for me to be all the attention on Zack. What is the narrative objective there?

Zack's the 10th most popular FF character. There's the narrative intention

It was their way of including him and since he's one of the core pieces that makes Cloud and the entire plot of FFVII come together, he'd be a natural point to attack if your goal is to upend the threat that will inevitably lead to your downfall.

Going back to look at it more closely and compare it to the depictions of his death from "Crisis Core" and the original game, I do think something was changed in the past with Zack after all (beyond the obvious, with that dome thing exploding). I don't think it necessarily means Zack lived much longer than before, but he definitely did survive longer than in either of the prior depictions.

In both the original game and CC, he had been fatally shot and left on the cliff edge just before it started raining. The rain begins to fall while Cloud is crawling towards Zack.

In the final scene of FFVIIR, we can see Zack carrying Cloud towards Midgar after the rain has already begun.

It also strikes me as noteworthy that CC's depiction of Zack's final moments on his feet begin with the camera focusing on a helicopter flying over him at the cliff edge when the remaining three soldiers are about to bring him down. This is noteworthy because when FFVIIR cuts back to Zack after this game's final boss, the first thing we're shown is a wrecked helicopter -- as if to clue us in that this is different.

Then we get the "Original" Stamp's Champs ad blowing away and the (healing?) gold snow falling on Zack.

(I suspect it may have healing properties because when one of these gold "snowflakes" lands on Biggs, he awakens.)

I think it was a thematic nod that Zack could feel something was made right and he felt hope while ironically marching to his death. He probably could sense/feel Aerith and Cloud and that something was resolved beyond his perception.

Likewise Aerith felt/saw Zack briefly and probably realized something tragic was about to happen.

This is one of those games that I really hope every gaming journo in Japan hounds Nomura, Kitase and Nojima over, to make them speak about. Just like they grilled Nomura over the literal FF Versus XIII that just popped up in KH3.

 

[Wol]

If Zack survived it means not only the future can change by defying fate, but also the past... so I really hope he didnt or else everything can go bonkers as they wish.