SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just think the theory is inconsistent. It hyper focuses on how Sephiroth is different ...

The guy whose actions the plot police time ghosts treat as aberrations in need of correction? Yes, precisely.

They do involve themselves in multiple situations not involving him, though. He just makes for the biggest deviations from the original timeline.

... but other plot changes go unnoticed because it's generally agreed those changes were made to modernize or expand the world. It doesn't add up to me.

To be fair, it was also a poorly conceived and unnecessary "justification" rooted in meta commentary. They should have just ran with whatever they wanted to do without trying to justify it within the plot, as though it were a necessary step.

Out of curiosity, what was the source of Maximilian Dood's "tip" that the Whisper sub-bosses are the Remnants? Was it just a friend pointing out an observation (because that's no different than the theorizing we're doing), or does he actually have some contact/acquaintance who works at SquareEnix?

I mean, he's been to SE's offices and got to meet the developers during development, play a longer demo build then anyone else got to play prior to release, etc. He definitely has contacts.

For him to say he got this tip from "top men" implies something different than if you or I were to say it.

 

[Eerie]

Summary: It's not that I wouldn't like the Whisper Harbingers to be Sephiroth's Remnants, but I can't think of a good explanation as to why the Harbingers would be them. However, a fight with Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo sounds fun.

Well he does make the note that the Whispers have the same moves that Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo have in AC/C. He noticed because he's watched that an ungodly amount of times lol.

 

[ForceStealer]

If they were intended as a visual reference to them, that's fair enough, but I agree that it still doesn't make any sense for manifestations of the planet's Fate would be based on Sephiroth's remnants.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

Finally beat the game on Hard Mode as well! FANTASTIC GAME!!

I believe I do understand the ending much better now, what is going on, what happened and what it means And the ending is not bad, it is actually VERY good imho! If you really do understand it and is not one of those who was expecting the REMAKE to be 1:1 to the Original.

Really looking forward for the next one! Let us appreciate and enjoy the REMAKE, and look at it as a completely new and different game than the Original because that is what it is A whole new experience and I am loving it!

 

[Wol]

 

[Wol]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250933742916468736

So this is what happens when whispers dont do their job

 

[Shademp]

What an excellent speedrun strategy to jump straight into the dark limbo-space of the lifestream so she can save Cloud from his mako poisoning.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I was wondering if that could happen.
Those aerial battles make me a little queasy tbh.

 

[Shademp]

My dream was that the FFVII Remake series would be a masterpiece adaptation of the original game in the same vein as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movie trilogy is an awesome adaptation of the book series: A great retelling for modern audiences, adapted for the medium, enhancing the experience and making it more accessible to newcomers.

For 90% of its runtime/playtime, for me, the FFVII Remake lived up to that dream. Everything was done with such intelligent intent and consistent quality that both the changed and the preserved formed a near-perfect marriage. The impossible dream that I've had in some shape or form for over 20 years actually seemed to come to fruition. It was that transcendental experience I was looking for.

Then it was all taken away. The ending ruins the journey, if only because an essential aspect of THE DREAM was a consistent level of quality through all chapters and for it to be an undeniably awesome entrypoint for newcomers to the Final Fantasy VII universe. What we get instead is a sequel in disguise. The dream of the remake is dead. Twenty years of dreaming, proven once again that it was foolish to fall in love with a franchise. Proving once again that it's better to not be so invested because it is, after all, just a video game. But I am at heart a dreamer. I couldn't help but to dream, even though I know the risk of heartbreak involved.

I pick up the controller to replay segments of FFVIIR, if only to gather screenshots and videos, but every time I do I feel like my arms and hands get cramped. Pushing buttons and moving the sticks is now an act of intentional exertion, comparable to moving on a treadmill while you are hungover. The awesome cutscenes pass by me in a haze and I can't even bring myself to enjoy those anymore. I gathered footage for a video but I can't bring myself to actually edit it together. What is even the point?

What makes me able to so easily research Compilation titles is because I am long past the stage of being invested in their relative quality. Because I love Dirge of Cerberus as a research topic, and that alone, I can't be hurt by its overflowing mediocrity and inconvenient spot in the FFVII canon. For me these are subjects to be studied and dissected, not something to be enjoyed and defended as some supposed examples of high art. That's why I am so conveniently exempt from the sincere emotion of "hating" the Compilation or even being annoyed by its mediocre parts: Because I barely give a shit about the quality of the Compilation.

Will I ever reach that point with FFVIIR? There was after all a time when I did care about the quality of the Compilation and when parts of it truly did anger me. Will the ending-ruins-the-journey disappointment of FFVIIR wear off and I'll be able to play and enjoy the game once more, without it feeling like a chore? Maybe, maybe not. That would be an impressive achievement, since there were so many more years of hope and anticipation for the remake compared to any of the Compilation titles. This is, without a doubt, the biggest gaming disappointment of my entire life. Might remain so for as long as I live.



Voices from my youth revisit me. It is my parents and my siblings telling my childhood self "It's just a video game", "Nothing to be upset about", "Why don't you go outside instead, for once?"

How I wish I didn't have to admit how right they are. But for the sake of my own health I have to admit it. FFVII and indeed FFVIIR are just video games; Nothing more, nothing less. You *can* be upset about it, but is it actually worth it? On top of that, I can't deny the value of some fresh air.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, if it comes to that, Hamlet is just a play. The Lord of the Rings is just a book. Picasso's Guernica is just a painting.

I was thinking today that maybe it's important for me to be reminded that it IS "just" a video game.

Do you think newcomers will realise it's a sequel?

Back in the day before Jackson's films came out, I scorned the Lord of the Rings, refusing ever to read it or even consider it seriously as a work of fiction, despite my then-husband's great love for the series. Then we went to see the first installment of Jackson's series. As we were leaving the cinema, I overheard someone saying, "I can't believe I have to wait two years to find out what happens!" And I thought, bugger that, Imma gonna go home and read the books. And I did.

My ex-husband was about as thrilled with Jackson's trilogy as you are with FFVIIR. Nevertheless, the film was enough to inspire me to go back and discover - and love - the original.

 

[Jairus]

Just thought I'd share something I noticed from the scene with Biggs. First, you see the circled area?

Now, look at this:

If that is Jessie's bag on the other side of the dresser, then she may very well be alive. I can't be sure of course, and the angle seems a little odd, but I thought I'd point it out nonetheless. I mentioned it in the Clessie thread, too, but wanted to post here to see what others thought. The entire shot is very careful to hide that entire side of the room, as if there's something they don't want us to see. Or someone. And when the camera turns and zooms in on Biggs, it's the only time we get any glimpse of what's over there. It's hard to make out, but might be another bed and/or table, I don't know. Just some more stuff to think about is all.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Sure, might as well bring her back in. If they are really implying that 2 of 3 survived, then just go ahead and make it 3 for 3 already.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

Sorry for yet another double post. I stumbled onto Chadley's secret and

Spoiler

I'm glad this wasn't a revelation that made it into the main story. The possibility that there could be time and multiple reality shenanigans is enough without wondering how many people you meet could be a lifelike robot/cyborgs. It also seems out of place to me as most of Shinra's robotics technology is clunky and inelegant.

 

[Kratos]

I think it's important to emphasize, as always, that it may not actually be a sequel, and in all likelihood ISN'T a sequel, at least not in the narrative sense.

That said, I'd probably think pretty hard before I recommended it to a newcomer - in terms of narrative transmission to a new generation, I think it edges on being a failure, at least in it current form. By being deliberately obtuse and disorienting, the ending has practically forced the fanbase to search outside of the core text for answers, whether those answers actually exist or not. A newcomer will want to discuss and dissect it simply because it's so out there, and will be encouraged to explore what has come before for answers; in that sense, the game cannot currently stand on its own. I have no doubt it it will eventually be able to once further parts exist, but that doesn't mean much to those trying to make sense of it now, and the nature of game development means that it will be a while before it can be a reality. Maybe in 10 years, we'll have a retelling that is worth passing down over the original, but we don't currently - and while it may or may not be a sequel as we often use the word, the current discourse surrounding it does make it reliant on the source it's adapting.

THAT said, I like this game a lot. That's my feeling even after the bordering-on-awful Chapter 17, and it's really hard for a weird, even distasteful, ending to make me retroactively hate something (unless it recontextualizes the things I liked into things I don't care for, which isn't the case here). I've certainly had much stronger negative reactions to endings of things that I still love after the fact (Gundam Unicorn). My heart goes out to those who can't square this, though. May you get future installments at no cost, and may they help to mend this wound rather than salt it.

 

[Eerie]

Yet, a lot of new fans who barely knew Cloud and Sephiroth absolutely do love the game, so it's working for them, even if they don't understand it fully like we do. Maybe it's even better in the sense where they don't have to bother with the continuity problems, and is this a sequel or not, etc. They just have to wait for the next game, and some even were tempted to play the OG now.

 

[Lord Noctis]

My wife has never touched a FF game in her life (hates turn based gameplay and isn't big on anime styled things) but I got her to try Remake. Next thing I know shes finished Remake, started a playthrough of the original, and has a PSP and a copy of Crisis Core due to arrive in the mail sometime in the next few weeks. I'd say Remake is a perfectly fine tool for bringing in new fans.

 

[Wol]

My dream was that the FFVII Remake series would be a masterpiece adaptation of the original game in the same vein as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movie trilogy is an awesome adaptation of the book series: A great retelling for modern audiences, adapted for the medium, enhancing the experience and making it more accessible to newcomers.

For 90% of its runtime/playtime, for me, the FFVII Remake lived up to that dream. Everything was done with such intelligent intent and consistent quality that both the changed and the preserved formed a near-perfect marriage. The impossible dream that I've had in some shape or form for over 20 years actually seemed to come to fruition. It was that transcendental experience I was looking for.

Then it was all taken away. The ending ruins the journey, if only because an essential aspect of THE DREAM was a consistent level of quality through all chapters and for it to be an undeniably awesome entrypoint for newcomers to the Final Fantasy VII universe. What we get instead is a sequel in disguise. The dream of the remake is dead. Twenty years of dreaming, proven once again that it was foolish to fall in love with a franchise. Proving once again that it's better to not be so invested because it is, after all, just a video game. But I am at heart a dreamer. I couldn't help but to dream, even though I know the risk of heartbreak involved.

I pick up the controller to replay segments of FFVIIR, if only to gather screenshots and videos, but every time I do I feel like my arms and hands get cramped. Pushing buttons and moving the sticks is now an act of intentional exertion, comparable to moving on a treadmill while you are hungover. The awesome cutscenes pass by me in a haze and I can't even bring myself to enjoy those anymore. I gathered footage for a video but I can't bring myself to actually edit it together. What is even the point?

What makes me able to so easily research Compilation titles is because I am long past the stage of being invested in their relative quality. Because I love Dirge of Cerberus as a research topic, and that alone, I can't be hurt by its overflowing mediocrity and inconvenient spot in the FFVII canon. For me these are subjects to be studied and dissected, not something to be enjoyed and defended as some supposed examples of high art. That's why I am so conveniently exempt from the sincere emotion of "hating" the Compilation or even being annoyed by its mediocre parts: Because I barely give a shit about the quality of the Compilation.

Will I ever reach that point with FFVIIR? There was after all a time when I did care about the quality of the Compilation and when parts of it truly did anger me. Will the ending-ruins-the-journey disappointment of FFVIIR wear off and I'll be able to play and enjoy the game once more, without it feeling like a chore? Maybe, maybe not. That would be an impressive achievement, since there were so many more years of hope and anticipation for the remake compared to any of the Compilation titles. This is, without a doubt, the biggest gaming disappointment of my entire life. Might remain so for as long as I live.



Voices from my youth revisit me. It is my parents and my siblings telling my childhood self "It's just a video game", "Nothing to be upset about", "Why don't you go outside instead, for once?"

How I wish I didn't have to admit how right they are. But for the sake of my own health I have to admit it. FFVII and indeed FFVIIR are just video games; Nothing more, nothing less. You *can* be upset about it, but is it actually worth it? On top of that, I can't deny the value of some fresh air.

There's always FFVII Remako HD.

otherwise, the dream is dead.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

My wife has never touched a FF game in her life (hates turn based gameplay and isn't big on anime styled things) but I got her to try Remake. Next thing I know shes finished Remake, started a playthrough of the original, and has a PSP and a copy of Crisis Core due to arrive in the mail sometime in the next few weeks. I'd say Remake is a perfectly fine tool for bringing in new fans.

That's awesome. I hope that's how most new players approach this. Not just google who the black haired guy is and catch up that way.

 

[Jairus]

The dream of a 1:1 remake, that is. But that's never what FF7R was about or was meant to be, and the ending clearly spells that out in no uncertain terms. I think things are going to diverge from the OG a lot more than many people think, and relying only on the OG to tell us what's going to happen next might not be the best idea. We're going on an unknown journey, one likely meant to keep both vets and newcomers alike guessing at every turn. So I'd expect any expectations to be overturned and subverted, both to throw off vets and to keep things fresh and interesting and not simply retread the same old ground.

 

[Aphyo]

There's always FFVII Remako HD.

otherwise, the dream is dead.

I agree with you, however, I hate this. I hate it because its true.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

I've seen a few reviews where the OG fans report a feeling of emptiness after the ending (including me). Coincidence that the new song written to play at the end is called "Hollow?" Probably. But maybe not. Maybe.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

Just thought I'd share something I noticed from the scene with Biggs. First, you see the circled area?

Now, look at this:

If that is Jessie's bag on the other side of the dresser, then she may very well be alive. I can't be sure of course, and the angle seems a little odd, but I thought I'd point it out nonetheless. I mentioned it in the Clessie thread, too, but wanted to post here to see what others thought. The entire shot is very careful to hide that entire side of the room, as if there's something they don't want us to see. Or someone. And when the camera turns and zooms in on Biggs, it's the only time we get any glimpse of what's over there. It's hard to make out, but might be another bed and/or table, I don't know. Just some more stuff to think about is all.

If Jessie is confirmed to be alive, then I hope she's included as a dateable character at the Gold Saucer, especially given...

A) her blatantly obvious crush on Cloud, and
B) in the original game, the lucky girl got the exact same role Jessie secured when she pursued an acting career.

 

[youffie]

My sister’s boyfriend also downloaded the OG immediately after finishing FFVIIR, yesterday they were already making their way to Gold Saucer… I know that my sister had tried to make him play the OG before in anticipation for Remake, but he just couldn’t get into it, it was too jarring for him. So yeah, whatever it is that Remake is doing for newcomers I’d say it’s working. And I'm very happy about the new fresh love that the original might get as a result.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Like me with LOTR, they want to find out how the story ends.

 

[Clean Cut Chaos]

So yeah, whatever it is that Remake is doing for newcomers I’d saying it’s working.

This lifts my spirits significantly. Yes I wanted to relive my childhood in glorious HD and VA, but I also wanted the kids today who wouldn't touch PSX graphics with a 10 foot pole to get in on the magic I felt as a young lad. If this gets them running to the OG, I'm very happy about that.