SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Odysseus]

I was talking to my friend, and his big issue is still just the fact that they have us fight Sephiroth so early into the plot. He's afraid they jumped the shark and won't be able to top the fight later.

It got me thinking, the way we eventually fight Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth will be completely different from how this fight was. One is a giant monster form, and the other is godly and grandiose. The chapter 18 fight has Sephiroth as just a man, a stupidly powerful man, but still. We've never actually gotten to have a fight against normal Sephiroth while playing as Cloud before. Omnislash scene does not count.

 

[Tetsujin]

I can easily see them top this fight what with the escalation of him becoming more god-like.

What I wonder is what they do with the music. How can you escalate from this version of OWA?

 

[Odysseus]

TWO-WINGED ANGEL

 

[Makoeyes987]

What I wonder is what they do with the music. How can you escalate from this version of OWA?

I seriously thought the same thing with the original version of OWA....

Then came Advent OWA.

I thought the same thing with Advent OWA....

Then we got Rebirth OWA.

So I think they'll simply continue to just surpass their limits in composing

The chapter 18 fight has Sephiroth as just a man, a stupidly powerful man, but still. We've never actually gotten to have a fight against normal Sephiroth while playing as Cloud before. Omnislash scene does not count.

That's precisely how I see it. In FFVII, we've never had an all out fight against a human-shaped One-Winged Angel Sephiroth. We've only been spectators for such a fight in the context of FFVII and Cloud. Which makes sense given chronologically we only saw a Sephiroth fighting in that form in 2005.

...Although, technically we got to fight a Sephiroth in that form in 2002... But that wasn't an FFVII game.

Here we finally got to play it, with Cloud. It was satisfying but it definitely isn't the peak.

 

[oty]

If there is one thing I am deeply relaxed about in any future installment of Remake, it's music. Like honestly. Square, you convinced me.

And sometimes I think about how big that is. Imagine fully and completely trusting a company with one of the most important things about their games.

 

[Odysseus]

Okay if I'm gonna give a non-stupid answer to that question, then I'd say there's nothing to worry about. This version of OWA is very specifically tailored to this fight, it would not work with Safer Sephiroth because it lacks the bombast and grandiosity. Rebirth is much more hectic and intense. The direction they go later will surely be different.

Who knows, maybe they'll forgo another rendition of OWA entirely and make a new song.

 

[Kain424]

I imagine they will throw all kinds of grandiosity in the final version.

 

[kathy202]

Are they seriously going to end every part of the remake with a Sephiroth boss fight? Gameplay wise, the final boss was great, but in terms of story telling, I found it rather incoherent and misplaced. I understand that they couldn't leave out such an iconic villain from the first installment, but doing this for every subsequent part? Unless they're only planning on 2 parts.

But yeah, music wise, they really nailed every bit of it with this installment. Wouldn't worry too much about the final version

 

[Wol]

Are they seriously going to end every part of the remake with a Sephiroth boss fight? Gameplay wise, the final boss was great, but in terms of story telling, I found it rather incoherent and misplaced. I understand that they couldn't leave out such an iconic villain from the first installment, but doing this for every subsequent part? Unless they're only planning on 2 parts.

But yeah, music wise, they really nailed every bit of it with this installment. Wouldn't worry too much about the final version

It would be so repetitive and predictable... I want Zack as the final boss of Part 2, if the whispers failed to "kill" him, I'll do it myself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So, I beat Chapter 18 last night. Lots of fun, the whole chapter. I loved the Motor Ball fight. Got him on the first try too. He really isn't that hard if you practiced at the bike chase sequence in Chapter 4 a lot. I didn't think so, at least.

The Whisper bosses were a little repetitive, but Counterstance absolutely eviscerates them, so no big deal. It's pretty effective on Seph as well, which made that fight (our first proper Cloud vs. Sephiroth swordfight in a FFVII game!) dynamic and exciting. So much fun was it, I had to go ahead and play the whole chapter again right after beating it the first time.

I am really looking forward to giving this a go on Hard Mode. I may try Chapter 18 first.

 

[KetaKitty]

Are they seriously going to end every part of the remake with a Sephiroth boss fight?

You fight Jenova four times in the original game, my only point is that FF in general likes the returning enemies with different twists to the fight, so its possible. FFX's Seymour is a good example of what not to do, up to Flux the fights are great, after that it was just redundant. I agree that I do not want Sephiroth diminished in such a way.

 

[Kain424]

It's really going to depend on where they decide to end the next chunk of story. But I imagine it will be another type of Jenova battle.

 

[Wol]

I can't wait for the epic 4-stage final boss against... Palmer.

sonofabitch

 

[kathy202]

It would be so repetitive and predictable... I want Zack as the final boss of Part 2, if the whispers failed to "kill" him, I'll do it myself.

Yeah, and I want Aerith to deliver the final blow!

I suppose repeated Sephiroth final battles could work if they choose the right spots to end each installment. It was awkward in the first part IMO, but going forward there are a handful of much less awkward story points to fight him.

 

[looneymoon]

On final bosses... here's what I am imagining - assuming that there will be 3 games to this

Game 2 - Multiple Sephiroth-clone fights... leading up to a possessed Cloud end boss.

Game 3 - Cloud is not playable for the majority of the game, but has a dramatic return in the latter half. Sephiroth is the final boss as in OG.

 

[Gazzdw]

I would of been perfectly happy ending part 1 with the Jenova fight (maybe placed somewhere else) I dont understand all this Sephiroth has to be the big bad. Just makes it awkward now when we come across a normal enemy! Unless the Seph fight was all in Cloud's head/illusions.

 

[Saven]

I was talking to my friend, and his big issue is still just the fact that they have us fight Sephiroth so early into the plot. He's afraid they jumped the shark and won't be able to top the fight later.

Yeah, my buddy beat it last night and we both shared the same sentiments about how early you fight Sephiroth. I hope it will be the last until the very end.

It got me thinking, the way we eventually fight Bizzaro and Safer Sephiroth will be completely different from how this fight was. One is a giant monster form, and the other is godly and grandiose. The chapter 18 fight has Sephiroth as just a man, a stupidly powerful man, but still. We've never actually gotten to have a fight against normal Sephiroth while playing as Cloud before. Omnislash scene does not count.

And the first time in FFVII we get to fight Sephiroth with his clothes on, unlike the Omnislash scene.

 

[Lord Noctis]

So I'm sure somebody else has already made this observation, but it just now occured to me.

When Cloud arrived at The Edge Of Creation he starts to spaz out, just like throughout the rest of the game when he'd recieve an inexplicable glance at the future.

But this time he doesn't see anything. Then Sephiroth says these words: "Careful now, that which lies ahead does not yet exist." Sephiroth's line clearly refers to the fact that, with the whispers defeated, the future is no longer set in stone.

But what I've realized is the specific thing Sephiroth meant. When Cloud spazzed out there, he was attempting to glimpse Omnislash in the future, but now that fate is gone, and thus that instant in time no longer exists, so Cloud doesn't see anything.

I know this is stuff we already know, but I enjoy the fact that Sephiroth is basically bragging about having undone Omnislash.

 

[Russell]

So finally completed it and... what happened at the end?

The whispers were trying to protect the original timeline and by beating them we gave the ok to change the timeline to something new?
Why was Zack there?
And why is Jessie the one that has to stay dead?!

To take a quote from page one:

What the heck happened with that ending? Does anyone want to take a crack at it with theories? I'm confused.

(Forgive me if there questions have been answered but this thread is 108 pages long.)
What the consensus on the ending, (if there is one?)

 

[Odysseus]

"Consensus" lol. We're all pretty clueless. But there's a lot of theories.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Russell
Beyond what the Ultimania has confirmed or clarified (i.e. Aerith knew more about the future than she was letting on; Zack survived past the point fate would have decreed he die; there's significance to the alternate version of Stamp seen with Zack; and the Sephiroth seen throughout Chapter 18 is neither the same Sephiroth who appeared up to that point in the game nor a manifestation of him that corresponds to the original game) --

we have no consensus.

 

[Russell]

I'm still trying to work out how I feel about this game.
I liked or loved most of this game (despite the padding) but everything involving the Whispers can eat a dick.

In his review Angry Joe called them 'cock blockers', then corrected himself to call them 'Plot blockers', which is a good term for them.
Every time then turned up I rolled my eyes and said "ugh these guys again".

Feels like they are laying the groundwork for Aerith not dying.

I mean Barret got skewered like a kabab by Seph then he's back to life 5 seconds later.
Seph's sword now has all the weight and impact of a wet fart.

 

[Erotic Materia]

I'm still trying to work out how I feel about this game.
I liked or loved most of this game (despite the padding) but everything involving the Whispers can eat a dick.

In his review Angry Joe called them 'cock blockers', then corrected himself to call them 'Plot blockers', which is a good term for them.
Every time then turned up I rolled my eyes and said "ugh these guys again".

Feels like they are laying the groundwork for Aerith not dying.

I mean Barret got skewered like a kabab by Seph then he's back to life 5 seconds later.
Seph's sword now has all the weight and impact of a wet fart.

I get where you're coming from, and I largely agree RE: the Whispers. However, in the overall scheme of things, I don't think they're necessarily trying to avoid killing off Aerith. The collective rage from OG players (myself included) would be strong enough to power a small country. That being said, I DO see them using this new, fresh canvas as a way to subvert expectations.

For example:

Spoiler: Hugely speculative writing

The gang arrives in the City of the Ancients, finds Aerith praying on the altar/gazebo/whatever. The camera pans up to Sephiroth flying down, sword ready to destroy Aerith. Right as Masamune is about to plunge through her body, Cloud parries the killing blow, startling everyone involved. Sephiroth does some monologuing, Jenova fight, etc., etc. OG players throw their hands up in disgust, before eventually continuing on while a little storm cloud dances over their heads. Later, after acceptance that this is CLEARLY going to be a much different story, the OG players eventually cool off and keep pushing forward through the story. Later, the party finds themselves in the Northern Crater, with the real Sephiroth encased in Materia. Because Aerith is still alive, she notices the internal struggle Cloud is feeling, as Sephiroth exerts his influence over him to give him the Black Materia. She convinces him to let her hold onto it, then goes in for a hug or something. As she pulls away, her eyes go wide. Blood drips off of the buster sword. (And because there are no longer any Whispers, there's no "Deus Ex Machina" BS to pull here) Cloud is horrified, freaks out, the area collapses, Cloud (and Aerith) fall into the lifestream with Sephiroth.

Anyway, I could see them doing something like that.

 

[Russell]

Jim Sterling pointed out that this feels more like an adaptation than remake, like an alternate universe or timeline.

I mean the original will always be there so why not change things up?

THEN WHY IS JESSIE STILL DEAD!?

I guess we won't know until the next game comes out, which I do look forward to.
I just hope for MUCH less Whisper stuff. No need to abandon or recon them just make them rare in the next game.

 

[ForceStealer]

I just hope for MUCH less Whisper stuff. No need to abandon or recon them just make them rare in the next game.

I know their nature was still listed as a "mystery," but I was under the impression we wouldn't ever see them again since we killed their personification or whatever.

Feels like they are laying the groundwork for Aerith not dying.

I mean Barret got skewered like a kabab by Seph then he's back to life 5 seconds later.
Seph's sword now has all the weight and impact of a wet fart.

Not to defend the scene itself, but I don't think that really has bearing on Aerith's death. The point of that scene seemed mostly to cement what the whispers were doing - protecting the timeline. If anything calls her death into question, it's that we killed the whispers. But that fact also implies that Sephiroth could kill anyone else, too, I guess.