Game of Thrones

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
I agree that the final scene is only fitting to show her with an army and a lot of subjects but damn the whole scene at the end felt like a feeding program for POC's. I know what's gonna happen because of her actions but I guess the writers should have toned down because has really some white imperialist implications. I think they could have removed or shortened scenes in Dragonstone, Shae, and Castle Black.

the show writers could have also fixed this by portraying more racial diversity in essos (yes, there are black and brown people. there are also a lot of fair skinned people in lys) and having dany be darker like she was in the books (she was getting there in s1 and then they dropped this but i recall her being described as dark as the dothraki at one point)

the imagery would have worked far better to reinforce the fact that dany is honestly more essos than westeros and this isn't just a simple case of "the pure hearted white girl takes pity on brown people"
 

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
I think the one thing to look out for is the fact that despite Danaerys' good intentions ("white imperialist implications" or no), she gets bogged down in politics and finds she's essentially incapable of keeping a lid on the slavery problem and keeping the peace). Similar to so many other leaders in the series (like Robert or Cersei, etc.), she's far better at taking a position of power than she is at keeping one.

Regardless of whether or not it's some sort of commentary on racial patriarchy, the whole thing kind of backfires anyway :monster:
 

Danseru-kun

Pro Adventurer
tumblr_mny7q8cmx41qbfe2bo2_500.gif

tumblr_mny7q8cmx41qbfe2bo1_500.gif
 

Novus

Pro Adventurer
Caught up and flying through the first book.
Difficult to manifest this new version of Tyrion instead of the actor playing him.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
i'm honestly bothered by how much the show is insisting on making tyrion the golden boy of the show

yes tyrion is slightly less shitty than his siblings. he's still a fucking lannister. i love the lannisters but they are massively fucked up people.
 

Jarlix

Pro Adventurer
I like Jaime Lannister. Always has the hard choices. Everything he done is justified to an extent. I think he is a character made to challenge our morality.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
It's a hard moment, realizing that the house you are rooting for is actually the Lannisters...
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
So, I just recently watched all 30 episodes in the last week or two (I am also vaguely aware of future book events spoilers thanks to general internet backdraft and wikis) definitely an addicting and well done series.

Mostly wanted to post GRRM's response to the many critiques of the awkward ending scene with Dany in "Mhysa"
http://grrm.livejournal.com/325946.html?thread=17814842#t17814842

Most of these people have obviously not read the books.

If they had, they would know there is no racial component to slavery as practiced on Essos. It is based on slavery as it existed in the ancient world. The Romans and Greek were just as willing to enslave other Greeks and Romans as they were Celts, Goths, Germans, and Africans. It's on the page.

However, when you are filming scenes in Morocco, and you put out a call for extras, it's Moroccans who show up. Most of them are darker skinned than our European actors (though there is actually a lot of different races and ethnic groups represented in the country, including Arabs, Berbers, Africans, French, etc). It is not so different from shooting a scene in Belfast and putting out a call for extras, whereupon a lot of Irish show up.

We fly our actors from country to country and continent to continent, at considerable expense, but that's not a practical consideration when dealing with extras. So in any big crowd scene, the prevailing skin color is always going to echo that of whatever the location is that you're shooting in.

But just for the record, yes, Dany is white, just as she has been from the beginning, and she may or may not be a savior (the last scene in "Mhysa" is not the end of her journey by any means), but she frees slaves of all colors, races, creeds, and nationalities.

While this is not a perfect response and a little presumptuous, it does somewhat acknowledge the white savior aspects of the scene and explains how logistics of the production ended up making virtually all of the slaves non-white in the show compared to the books.
 
Last edited:

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
It's a hard moment, realizing that the house you are rooting for is actually the Lannisters...

I would never root for a particular house per se because almost all of them are fucked up in the head in some way, I think.

And I certainly wouldn't root for the Lannisters, imo. Those are pretty much at the top of the ladder when it comes to fucked up, :monster:
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
valve as house stark is totally inaccurate. the starks would obviously be bethesda -- well intentioned idealists whose shit starts falling apart in reality until someone comes along to clean up for them.
 

Zee

wangxian married
AKA
Zee
"i heard you wanted more POC so we casted the lightest POC we could find guys why aren't you happy guys"
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
"i heard you wanted more POC so we casted the lightest POC we could find guys why aren't you happy guys"
Yeah, seriously it's like every time there is character who is described in the source material as having "olive skin" the producers/casters/etc. interpret that as meaning "let's cast a person who is as white as possible without being too white".
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Something I don't quite get;

The the history of Mad King is universally known by the entire populace of Westeros as being an unrepentant psychopath. Everyone knows how crazy and vile this dude was.

Robert Baratheon and Jaime Lannister are two of his subjects (one a Lord, one a Kingsguard) that rebelled against him. Robert led a war/rebellion against him, and Jaime killed him. Both are technically acts of treason. So why is Robert hailed as a hero and Jaime almost universally reviled for what's technically the same thing; desposing a sociopath ruler?

Granted, the general public didn't know about the Mad King's intention to set fire to Kings Landing and kille everyone in the capital (when he was cornered by Robert's armies), but when Jaime was telling the story to Brienne and she goes "But why didn't you tell anyone?" I was like "but why should he have to, everyone knows the dude was fucking crazy and Robert was already warring against the guy!"

Yes, I know that ultimately, Jaime is a piece of shit person and Robert did a very heroic act by standing up to a tyrant, so I'm not trying to reverse the character interpretations here, but why is Jaime despised for ridding the realm of a nutjob and Robert is what amounts to the same capital crime; treason?

i'm honestly bothered by how much the show is insisting on making tyrion the golden boy of the show

yes tyrion is slightly less shitty than his siblings. he's still a fucking lannister. i love the lannisters but they are massively fucked up people.

I think the point of this is that someone can be at least morally neutral and work for the interests of your relatives without being a piece of shit just because your relatives are.

Unlike most fiction I like the show/books because it seems to get that pretty much everything is muddled in gray and not straight black/white. People, and especially how we interact with each other, are really complex, especially about familial relations.
 
Last edited:

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
Yes, I know that ultimately, Jaime is a piece of shit person and Robert did a very heroic act by standing up to a tyrant, so I'm not trying to reverse the character interpretations here, but why is Jaime despised for ridding the realm of a nutjob and Robert is what amounts to the same capital crime; treason?

Because I suppose Robert, being King, publically represents everything positive about the Rebellion, while Jaime has the distinction of having stabbed the previous one in the back - and not having the title of King to defend himself from it.

Also, oaths are supposed to be a pretty big deal in Westeros and breaking an oath of fealty by being a rebellious lord as opposed to a rebellious personal bodyguard (which carries the greater stigma of untrustworthiness on a more personal level) is the lesser of the two evils, I guess. :monster:
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
That is true. I hadn't considered the fact that while its expected for nobles and subjects to rebel from time to time (and deal with them accordingly), the Kingsguard is a more intimate and personal oathbound relationship, that someone who broke that would be treated with a certain amount of contempt and suspicion.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
And Jaime swore the oath of the Kingsguard like, a matter of months before the war started. Not the same as if Barristan did the deed, who took the gig three Kings ago.
 

Carlie

CltrAltDelicious
AKA
Chloe Frazer
To add to the oath breaking because of the timing most people are under the belief that Jamie didn't kill the Mad King for any noble reason but was a coward that took the opportunity from his father attack of King's Landing to commit such an act, of course we know that's not the case at all.
 

Captain Jack Harkness

not a out-of-bounds guy
AKA
4nn4-chan, Loras Tyrell, Loki
Yeah, seriously it's like every time there is character who is described in the source material as having "olive skin" the producers/casters/etc. interpret that as meaning "let's cast a person who is as white as possible without being too white".
honestly, don't really agree. i'm still reading acok so i haven't meet the Martell yet, but from what i saw etc i got the impression they're like medieval spain. mediterraneans with a strong arabian print, but not arabians.
so i'm ok with a hispanic actor.
and more important, is not how dark is the skin that matter, but how he play the character. we haven't see how he looks with make up and all.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
honestly, don't really agree. i'm still reading acok so i haven't meet the Martell yet, but from what i saw etc i got the impression they're like medieval spain. mediterraneans with a strong arabian print, but not arabians.
so i'm ok with a hispanic actor.
and more important, is not how dark is the skin that matter, but how he play the character. we haven't see how he looks with make up and all.
Mediterranean does not just mean white Europeans who tan well, it includes people from Africa (which includes Arabian people) as well. Also Spain (including medieval Spain) have dark skinned people, heck the Moors are the ones who conquered Spain during midievil times. Also Oberyn is described as a "Salty" Dornishman which are are the darker looking of the three types of the Dornishmen.
This fan art of Oberyn Martell as been called by George R.R. Martin as a accurate representation of Oberyn Martell:
Oberyn_Martell.jpg

This write up from reblogged at Racebending.com gives a good summation of why the casting is problematic and disappointing.
http://racebending.tumblr.com/post/54558710638/asshaiishadowbinder-did-game-of-thrones
Did “Game of Thrones” whitewash Oberyn Martell? by Hera Syed
Today, news broke that Game of Thrones finally cast Oberyn Martell, a highly anticipated character from the books whose nickname is “The Red Viper.” Pedro Pascal, a Chilean actor who attended Orange County High School of the Arts and is currently playing a recurring character on USA’s Graceland, won the coveted role.
Showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss said of the role:
The Red Viper is sexy and charming, yet believably dangerous; intensely likable, yet driven by hate… We found a fellow who can handle the job description and make it seem effortless. He wasn’t easy to find and he won’t be easy to stop. [Entertainment Weekly]
Okay, acting ability (or non-ability, since Pascal has yet to prove himself) aside, why am I so upset about this casting?
For starters, A Storm of Swords, the third book in the “A Song of Ice and Fire” saga, is explicitly clear in regards to the way people from Dorne – the region in Westeros where House Martell is from – look. As told from Tyrion’s point-of-view:
The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown-haired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning. [A Storm of Swords, p. 520]
From this passage, we can assume that Dorne is a multi-racial region, consisting of people who are both light-skinned and dark-skinned. The following excerpt describes where Oberyn Martell lies on the color spectrum:
The princeling removed his helm. Beneath, his face was lined and saturine, with thin arched brows above large eyes as black and shiny as pools of coal oil. Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded brown his brow in a widow’s peak as sharply pointed as his noise. A salty Dornishmen for certain. [A Storm of Swords, p. 521]
As described in this passage, Oberyn Martell is dark and olive-skinned. Even George R. R. Martin has stated before that Nymeria Sand, one of Oberyn’s bastard daughters, looks like Janina Gavankar, an actress of Indian and Dutch descent who has a fairly olive-skinned complexion. So the author himself doesn’t see House Martell being white or light-skinned (with possibly one or two exceptions).
Appearance-wise, Pedro Pascal does not fit the criteria of a “salty Dornishmen.”
Here are a few, common reactions I’ve been reading on the Internet so far:
1. He’s Chilean! That means he’s not white… right?
Actually, no. There are white Hispanics and white Latinos with predominately European features who do exist, which means people from South America can be white and light-skinned. Just turn on any Spanish-language telenovela and you’ll see the over-representation of white Latinos. It’s both disingenuous and extremely troubling to cast a white Latino in a role and then try to pass it off as groundbreaking, non-white casting.
Other white Latino actors include Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, and Alexis Bledel.
2. Skin color doesn’t matter!!!
This is a common argument made in any discussion of race.
First of all, pointing out Oberyn Martell’s whitewashing in Game of Thrones is not the same thing as complaining about Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall in the Thor movies, for example. Unless it’s to show them as thugs, violent criminals, and the like, POC representation in media is few and far between, whereas white people have been over-represented in the media. The few roles that are available to actors of color are often passed over to white and lighter-skinned actors, instead, as is the case with Oberyn Martell.
Second, all of the major characters in Game of Thrones have been white, except for slaves, slavers, and savages. This is especially disturbing in light of the white savior fiasco involving the character of Daenerys Targaryen that’s been going on since season 1. (This came to a head in the season 3 finale where she’s hoisted up by a sea of brown people calling her “mother.”)
Not only is POC representation few and far between, but the few POC that do exist on this show have been put into subservient roles, killed, or erased completely.
3. He was the best actor for the role.
The idea that talented actors of color don’t exist is absurd.
There’s also this (clips no longer available) handy dandy clip of Pedro Pascal during an audition, so judge for yourself.
4. Use make-up to darken his skin.
I’m not kidding when I say that some people have suggested this as a serious option. If you know anything about the problematic history of attempting to make white actors look “more ethnic” (see: blackface, yellowface, brownface), then this would never even cross your mind.
So, what does this mean for future casting?Pedro Pascal’s pale complexion probably means that the rest of House Martell will also consist of pale-skinned actors, which means even more whitewashing. At this point, I would not be surprised.
I’m curious as to what George R. R. Martin thinks of the casting. His books aren’t exactly ripe with people of color and there are plenty of problematic elements in regard to race and ethnicity (see: Dothraki), but House Martell was one of the few, definitive opportunities to cast actors of color and not have Game of Thrones consist entirely of lily-white British actors.
To be clear the actor may do a great job performing the character (I loved Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan) but that does not mean the problematic issues of the casting should be ignored. Also this is not something the actor should be blamed for rather its the responsibility of the producers/casters.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom