Gillian and Lucrecia - Jenova Cell Affects: * SPOILERS re: Crisis Core *

[Arianna]

Something came to me on another thread, but instead of hijacking it away from it's purpose, I decided to come and make a new thread. Before I begin, it deals with yet another retcon from the original game by a more recent title.

How could Gillian die so easily in Crisis Core if Lucrecia could not die so easily in the original game?

Lucrecia explains that the Jenova inside of her would not allow her to die so easily, but she got them second hand through Sephiroth (as a fetus, in her womb); Gillian was the direct recipient of Jenova cells, and if I understand it correctly, she is the first successful carrier to not lose herself to Jenova.

Any ideas? Does the Ultimanias or other books go into this in detail (or at all)? I would love to know how SE was to explain this one, if they try at all.

... Gillian didn't show any signs of being ill; though, through Dirge of Cerberus, we know Lucrecia was extremely ill ...

Just more questions have been raised about where we're going with this Compilation as well as what the messages are that we're supposed to get from the story(ies).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Apparently Gillian knew how to kill herself better than Lucrecia.

I seriously don't know and its not something that's, that important. We don't know how either of them tried to kill themselves. All we know is that they both tried, one succeeded and the other failed.

Maybe Gillian took some hardcore, super death behemoth poison that even Jenova cells couldn't counter act.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's not really *that* important, but it is a pretty stupid oversight.

 

[Arianna]

Perhaps it was oversight, perhaps it wasn't; and yeah, it's not very important to any part of the Compilation. Still, it makes one wonder; or at least, I do. Perhaps Lucrecia only wanted to die in her mind; Gillian was actually suicidal and/or was killed...?

 

[Strangelove]

I don't remember the differences between their experiments exactly (Gillian was injected with Jenova cells herself, and Lucrecia just had her baby injected with them, was it?), but just having Jenova cells/some relation with them obviously doesn't mean you immortal. Otherwise no SOLDIER, who got Jenova cells, would be able to die either. And a bunch of them, plus Hojo/etc., all died just fine.

Some materials (Ultimania Omega) talk about Lucrecia undergoing some kind of physical change because of the experiments, so maybe that had something to do with it. Some kind of special combination of experiences and you'll be more death-proof.

 

[Arianna]

Some materials (Ultimania Omega) talk about Lucrecia undergoing some kind of physical change because of the experiments, so maybe that had something to do with it. Some kind of special combination of experiences and you'll be more death-proof.

That's along the lines of why I'm asking this, not to mention the retconning. Also, it's interesting that for Lucrecia, it was second hand; again, if you can say that when it deals with a fetus inside the womb. Perhaps it goes back to everyone's DNA and how much Jenova can have an effect on everyone; perhaps there is something on the genetic level that her mental and physical abilities cannot penetrate in different lifeforms?

Also, then this makes me think of what Lucrecia meant when she spoke to Vincent about what he was seeing was really just a projection of her, as her real body died/rotted/something away long ago.

Perhaps that's the physical manifestation that the Ultimania Omega was speaking about? Perhaps it did to her what it did to (some of?) the Cetra thousands of years ago, mutated them, made them monsters. It would also explain some other things - but they are speculation, only: why she'd keep herself in a crystal, and perhaps she's only projecting the image of a human body in a crystal to the visible eyes that come across her. I never really understood these things, but this is giving me some thought...

 

[Andalegogo]

I like to think that maybe Gillian used either Genesis's cells or Angeal's to somehow have a disruptive effect on the normal Jenova cells.

At that point Jenova cells were almost impossible to destroy individually, and the only secret knowledge Gillian could've possibly had would've likely been related to Project G. And seeing as how Angeal and Genesis each seem to have their own "spin-off" versions of Jenova's genetic abilities, I think it's possible they might have developed some sort of natural intolerance of normal J-cells.

I figure it'll be explained sometime in the future and is ignored for now, simply because because it could be related to Genesis' mysterious genetic traits.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

The experiments had to be different, otherwise how do we explain that Angeal and Genesis degraded and Sephiroth didn't? Maybe that's why Gillian could kill herself and Lucrecia can't...

 

[Arianna]

The experiments had to be different, otherwise how do we explain that Angeal and Genesis degraded and Sephiroth didn't? Maybe that's why Gillian could kill herself and Lucrecia can't...

Well... that is an interesting subject, but I believe it was explained by the purity of the Jenova cells and when they were introduced to the person(s) in question.

Gillian was the one who had Jenova cells placed inside her, she conceived Angeal naturally after that fact, and some of her own DNA (which already blended with that of Jenova's) had been placed into Genesis.

Sephiroth had the Jenova cells placed inside him when he was in his mother's womb; so, he would probably have the better chance of developing more of Jenova's traits due to the purity.

No filters were involved with Sephiroth; filters were naturally and unnaturally used for Angeal and Genesis. All three men had Jenova DNA and all of them had traits linked back to the abilities of that creature.

Since Sephiroth was merged with Jenova so early and so purely, he had the most obvious (and perhaps, not so obvious) traits.

As to why Sephiroth did not degenerate and the other two were, I can't say. Was it really a degeneration; perhaps it was the Jenova cells returning to a state more comfortable? Of course, that's speculation.

Perhaps what was happening to them was what happened to Lucrecia?

 

[Andalegogo]

I'm pretty sure only Genesis was degenerating. Angeal didn't degenerate until he did something he wasn't supposed to do, and that was when he fused directly with the bodies of his Copies. Hollander himself warned him that doing so would be fatal, but Angeal did it anyway! >.<

 

[megas_sephiroth]

As to why Sephiroth did not degenerate and the other two were, I can't say. Was it really a degeneration; perhaps it was the Jenova cells returning to a state more comfortable? Of course, that's speculation.

Perhaps what was happening to them was what happened to Lucrecia?

Maybe the fact that Sephiroth was injected with the cells directly while still in the womb, instead of having what you call a filter explains the degeneration process. Sephiroth can really be called a hybrid. Maybe the same can't be said about Genesis and Angeal due to Gillian's "interference".

Lucrecia didn't degrade, quite the opposite, she can't kill herself.

 

[ForceStealer]

Jenova cells don't make you immortal, no, but they do make you very resilient. Case in point: Zack. He took how many bullets and continued fighting? Not to mention being shot in the HEAD and still able to deliver final words to Cloud. So yes, Jenova prevented Lucrecia from killing herself, but as Mako said, maybe she just wasn't as good at it. Maybe she just slashed her wrists, lol, that doesn't even work on someone normal. Whereas perhaps GIllian threw herself onto the Buster Sword that was just sitting there.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Jenova cells don't make you immortal, no, but they do make you very resilient. Case in point: Zack. He took how many bullets and continued fighting? Not to mention being shot in the HEAD and still able to deliver final words to Cloud. So yes, Jenova prevented Lucrecia from killing herself, but as Mako said, maybe she just wasn't as good at it. Maybe she just slashed her wrists, lol, that doesn't even work on someone normal. Whereas perhaps GIllian threw herself onto the Buster Sword that was just sitting there.

Maybe, but don't forget that she's a scientist, she should know several ways of committing suicide...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Zack was shot in the head?

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Zack was shot in the head?

The last time he's shot at, it seems the shin-ra guard shoots him in the head.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Seems, huh? I don't think you guys know how guns work.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I never even held one...

 

[Gale]

I certainly got the impression from the end of the final battle in Crisis Core that Zack was shot in the head. The camera takes his point of view, the MP points his gun at the camera, and after he fires the POV snaps to the side.

In the final cutscene, however, Zack seems to lack a head wound. It feels like a really stupid oversight, because that rather strongly infers that the MP meant to shot Zack in the face, and considering the circumstances he had zero reason to miss.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'll go to my grave not buying that Zack was shot in the head.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

@Gale

I was under that impression too, but even if he was shot in the head, SE would never put a bullet hole in his head, it would ruin the effect pf the final sequence. Also, wouldn't that kind of gun pretty much blow his head off or something, I mean, it was really close range...

@The Notorious MOG

Care to elaborate?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It just spits in the face about everything I know about guns. Not only would Zack's head explode like a melon with being shot in the head with that kind of gun, but considering it's a machine gun and there's no head/bullet wounds, puh-leese. It doesn't even look like they really aimed at his head. It looks like they aimed at his chest.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Angeal is a G-Type SOLDIER. He was going to degrade eventually. All G-Type SOLDIERs suffer from degeneration.

And yes, Zack was shot in the head. Both in the original FFVII, and Crisis Core.

 

[Gale]

I don't disagree that if Zack was shot in the head they failed utterly at portraying it at all realistically, but if you watch that cutscene in Crisis Core and try to claim that it isn't from Zack's POV and that the gun isn't level to his eyesight and fired, I'm not sure what to say.

The whole thing seems inconsistent because SE decided to let Zack have a dying speech - a retcon I'm not fond of to begin with. I loved the brutality of his death in the original game.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm going to need some proof that he was shot in the head.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

It just spits in the face about everything I know about guns. Not only would Zack's head explode like a melon with being shot in the head with that kind of gun, but considering it's a machine gun and there's no head/bullet wounds, puh-leese. It doesn't even look like they really aimed at his head. It looks like they aimed at his chest.

You're right, I've seen pictures of people who had been shot in the head back in forensic medicine class and, well, there wasn't much left, if anything at all.

But it would also ruin the moment if he had bullet holes in the head. So maybe SE just didn't want to show it...