• There are currently leaks out on the internet for FFVII Rebirth; we have received legal notice about these being posted on the forums. Do not post any images, videos, or other media, or links to them from FFVII Rebirth or the artbook. Any leaked media or links to them will be deleted.Repeat offenders will be suspended.
    Please help us out by reporting any leaks, and do not post spoilers outside of the spoiler section.

Goomba Stomp - ‘Advent Children’ and the Romanticization of ‘Final Fantasy VII’

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
Someone wrote an article on Advent Children in 2020 and I think it makes some valid points. It's about Aerith and Zack's involvement in AC compared to the portrayal of death in the OG. It doesn't feature anything that hasn't already been discussed around here, but condenses the argument neatly:

https://goombastomp.com/advent-children-and-the-romanticization-of-final-fantasy-vii

I also want to highlight the dumpster fire that is the comment section of this article. Makes me real happy with the quality of discussions on this forum.
 
Last edited:

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Interesting article, though while there are some differences between how death as a concept is depicted in the OG and AC, I don't think they are as different as the article makes them out to be.

Firstly, IIRC didn't the "living legacy" lines originate in Crisis Core not the original version of AC? Albeit the scene gets added to the Complete version, but I think being accurate on the source of one's criticisms is important.
Secondly, while it is true that Aerith doesn't speak to the party after her death in the OG, I don't think it's accurate to say she doesn't have a significant/interactive presence after her death in the OG what with the Church Ghost, the reaching hand, and the literal ending shot of her face in the climax. Now maybe for some the difference between that OG stuff and what AC/C is significant, but for me the difference is negligible.
Additionally, I think the ambiguity of Cloud's "conversations" with Zack and Aerith in AC/C shouldn't be discounted, it's deliberately allows for some of them to be interpreted as "just in Cloud's head".
Also Rufus isn't seen "clearly dying" in the OG, yes one would presume he was dead without AC/C, but if one is being pedantic about Aerith, one should be so with Rufus as well (which the OG gave a "no body shown" opportunity for AC/C to take).
And finally I don't think using Sephiroth's revival in AC/C is a good example of "death losing its meaning" when Sephiroth dying and later being revealed to not actually be dead is a major plot point of the OG as well.

Anyways, while I do agree that AC/C is approaching the theme of death differently than the OG did in some respects, I don't think they are irreconcilable with each other like the author of article purports. Especially when the theme of AC/C is dealing with guilt and having to live with grief afterwards, while the OG is about loss in the present, since different aspects of dealing with death are being depicted between the two works, I think some difference in approach/depiction should be expected.
 
Last edited:

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Well he's not entirely wrong, but...

One of the film’s earliest slaps to the face being the sudden reveal that Rufus Shinra is alive. A core villain in FFVII, Rufus is clearly seen dying in a cutscene. Advent Children realizes how ridiculous this is and even has Cloud cutting off Rufus explaining his survival as a joke– which really says it all.

An important character who dies on-screen comes back to life and the explanation for how they survived is brushed off for a joke.

No, no... you see, the Rufus that got blasted by Diamond Weapon wasn't the real Rufus. It was only a Rufus clone created thru secret Shinra cloning experiments. I find this more probable than the explanation of an escape tunnel, which I think would've malfunctioned at the last minute because it was purposely designed by Reeve to fail because he hated his fellow Shinra executives, the President most of all. Vengeance, baby!

Anyway, I don't agree with everything that was written but I do agree with what was generally said regarding AC/C 'cheapening' death to a degree, although I don't think it was that glaring. Interesting article.

EDIT:

Wow. I advise against reading the comment section as it can cause physical pain.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
When looked at from one angle, Crisis Core shows that death can be multi-faceted. Zack is a positive person and finds a silver lining, even in his own demise. A demise that takes everything from him. His death also serves a similar purpose as the Cait Sith fake-out from the Temple of the Ancients. It makes death feel tropey and even unlikely. It helps keep Aerith's demise a surprise.

That being said, I basically agree with the article. Final Fantasy VII carried its message of life's importance and also its fragility on its sleeve. The rest of the Compilation does not do this.

Great article.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Interesting article, though while there are some differences between how death as a concept is depicted in the OG and AC, I don't think they are as different as the article makes them out to be.

Firstly, IIRC didn't the "living legacy" lines originate in Crisis Core not the original version of AC? Albeit the scene gets added to the Complete version, but I think being accurate on the source of one's criticisms is important.
Secondly, while it is true that Aerith doesn't speak to the party after her death in the OG, I don't think it's accurate to say she doesn't have a significant/interactive presence after her death in the OG what with the Church Ghost, the reaching hand, and the literal ending shot of her face in the climax. Now maybe for some the difference between that OG stuff and what AC/C is significant, but for me the difference is negligible.
Additionally, I think the ambiguity of Cloud's "conversations" with Zack and Aerith in AC/C shouldn't be discounted, it's deliberately allows for some of them to be interpreted as "just in Cloud's head".
Also Rufus isn't seen "clearly dying" in the OG, yes one would presume he was dead without AC/C, but if one is being pedantic about Aerith, one should be so with Rufus as well (which the OG gave a "no body shown" opportunity for AC/C to take).
And finally I don't think using Sephiroth's revival in AC/C is a good example of "death losing its meaning" when Sephiroth dying and later being revealed to not actually be dead is a major plot point of the OG as well.

Anyways, while I do agree that AC/C is approaching the theme of death differently than the OG did in some respects, I don't think they are irreconcilable with each other like the author of article purports. Especially when the theme of AC/C is dealing with guilt and having to live with grief afterwards, while the OG is about loss in the present, since different aspects of dealing with death are being depicted between the two works, I think some difference in approach/depiction should be expected.

Aerith calling Marlene on the phone is a pretty substantial difference for me.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
The article makes some good points, I feel. Aerith's post-mortem appearances in the OG were more ethereal and cryptic, whereas in AC they are more tangible/obvious. I prefer the former. However, conversely, it also annoys me when people say that Aerith was 100% gone, when in reality it was depicted as inconclusive, and if it was really her, it wasn't really the "her" we knew, because she'd have been in a completely different realm.

The verbose Zack flashback in the ACC iteration of the movie annoys me, but there is some interesting psychological drama to be found in the disheartening weight of someone telling you to be their living legacy when you barely had a sense of self to begin with. It was not at all intended to be abusive, but the weight of it was unfair and really fucked Cloud up. That being said, it's something that could have been conveyed in minimal words from Zack rather than in a speech.

Although the ambiguity as to whether humanity survived was a poignant moment in the OG, I am a sucker for post-apocalyptic stuff. Having to pick up the pieces of a world that everyone broke and find redemption. The fact that everyone kind of falls apart mentally after the adrenaline of the fight that was holding them together wears off. I know people used to get pissed off a lot about how Cloud fell back into a state of poor mental health and everything gets rehashed, but I find it all very relatable.
 
Last edited:

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Aerith calling Marlene on the phone is a pretty substantial difference for me.
That’s perfectly fine to feel that way. But for me personally, especially since we don’t actually even hear the phone “conversation”, it doesn’t come off as significantly different from when Marlene senses Aerith during the climax of the OG right before Holy is unleashed above Midgar.
 

ExampleZ

Pro Adventurer
I agree with pretty much everything in the article, but this especially:
This may seem like an inconsequential change, but it creates one incredibly important difference: Zack has last words now. With his dying breath, Zack begs Cloud to become his living legacy. Ignoring how this closure flies in the face of how FFVII depicted death, it’s completely tone-deaf that Zack asks Cloud to be his literal living legacy when Cloud’s entire arc in Final Fantasy VII centered on him shedding his resemblances to Zack to become his own man.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have many problems with Crisis Core and the rest of the compilation but the death speech is still the worst change/addition made by the compilation by a mile.

I also want to highlight the dumpster fire that is the comment section of this article. Makes me real happy with the quality of discussions on this forum.

Hooo boy you weren't kidding about the dumpster fire. But the ones that especially irk me are the ones saying that Cloud is still emotionally distant at the end of the game. Uh, what? Does this guy look emotionally distant to you?emotionallydistant.pngsufferingfromptsd.png

After Tifa helps Cloud restore his memories and put together his fragmented identity we see the real Cloud for the rest of the game, and he acts nothing like the Cloud from AC who abandons his friends and spends half the movie staring at the ground in silence. I can understand the geostigma was affecting his mind and making him act irrationally, but saying he was always like that even in the game is just wrong.

And then there's also this gem:
Every other character, event or thing can be considered a plot device in Cloud’s story moving him through his arc.

...what the actual fuck? What are these people smoking? Have they actually played the same game?

EDIT: Also people who use the ending scene of Cloud saying he thinks he can meet Aeris in the Promised Land as proof that "he's not over it" are wrong, though to be fair I was confused by this too since it's been established many times that the translation isn't the greatest, but basically the Promised Land is the FF7 metaphor for the afterlife or "heaven", so he's accepting that Aeris is gone and he'll see her again some day when the time has come to return to the lifestream. That or he's gonna commit suicide just to be with Aeris again, which I seriously doubt is the case. So Advent Children blatantly contradicts everything in the original game.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom