Hojo and the Silver Elite

[jazzflower92]

Who was it that said the club was started when he was six? I can't remember.

It mentions in one email from the Silver Elite how the Chairwoman said its been around for twenty years.

 

[Ozarkas]

It mentions in one email from the Silver Elite how the Chairwoman said its been around for twenty years.

That was never in any of the club letters. The woman Zack had to speak to is the one who mentioned that the club was founded twenty years ago and no one has ever met the chairwoman in person, but whoever she is must be really close to him to know so much about him. Since Sephiroth was twenty five, I guess that would have made him only five. Another interesting fact is, why did Hojo have to pose as a woman? A freaking woman! I hope he was not some secret pedophile.

I always liked the idea that Hojo cared about his wife and son in his own weird way. I liked to think that he had a desire to prove the existence of a higher power and gave up his family for science and wanted to atone to Sephiroth but merely said the opposite to Cloud in order not to seem soft and weak. I perceived Hojo as a misunderstood nerd with some major intimacy issues.

If we had some facial expressions and voice tones, it would have been better. Since he never revealed to the public that he was Sephiroth's father, he received no fame, recognition, or glory unlike stage parents who do. I always liked to believe that he cared about Lucrecia and was bitter and jealous that she loved another man, but he could have only pursued her for the sake of making a baby to experiment on. I wondered if he had been a less insane younger man who got his wife pregnant and just figured he had the perfect opportunity to test out his hypothesis.

 

[jazzflower92]

That was never in any of the club letters. The woman Zack had to speak to is the one who mentioned that the club was founded twenty years ago and no one has ever met the chairwoman in person, but whoever she is must be really close to him to know so much about him. Since Sephiroth was twenty five, I guess that would have made him only five. Another interesting fact is, why did Hojo have to pose as a woman? A freaking woman! I hope he was not some secret pedophile.

I always liked the idea that Hojo cared about his wife and son in his own weird way. I liked to think that he had a desire to prove the existence of a higher power and gave up his family for science and wanted to atone to Sephiroth but merely said the opposite to Cloud in order not to seem soft and weak. I perceived Hojo as a misunderstood nerd with some major intimacy issues.

If we had some facial expressions and voice tones, it would have been better. Since he never revealed to the public that he was Sephiroth's father, he received no fame, recognition, or glory unlike stage parents who do. I always liked to believe that he cared about Lucrecia and was bitter and jealous that she loved another man, but he could have only pursued her for the sake of making a baby to experiment on. I wondered if he had been a less insane younger man who got his wife pregnant and just figured he had the perfect opportunity to test out his hypothesis.

The reason probably he hid who he really was because of the fact that his son would have the urge to strangle him if he found out. Also this is Hojo we are talking about who likes to observe things from the shadows so he won't be detected.

As much as that idea sounds nice its not really supported in anywhere in canon. Heck, at the end of the game Hojo says himself that he could care less about Lucrecia and that she served her purpose in giving birth to Sephiroth. Also in the Ultimanias it says that Hojo saw his wife and son only as objects to use for science.

Also the thing is there is no point throughout the game he was looking for a higher power. He was only interested in doing anything to fuel his psychotic fascination with science. Hojo is still a stage parent although he doesn't receive fame from it. He still is willing to exploit his own child for scientific purposes and manipulate many aspects of his life in order to see the results.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, Ozarkas. Much as you may like that idea, it is straight-up said in an Ultimania that Hojo saw Lucrecia as laboratory material and that he saw Sephiroth as a tool through which to satisfy his scientific curiosities.

I'll get you the exact quote later, if you want.

 

[Ozarkas]

The reason probably he hid who he really was because of the fact that his son would have the urge to strangle him if he found out. Also this is Hojo we are talking about who likes to observe things from the shadows so he won't be detected.

As much as that idea sounds nice its not really supported in anywhere in canon. Heck, at the end of the game Hojo says himself that he could care less about Lucrecia and that she served her purpose in giving birth to Sephiroth. Also in the Ultimanias it says that Hojo saw his wife and son only as objects to use for science.

Also the thing is there is no point throughout the game he was looking for a higher power. He was only interested in doing anything to fuel his psychotic fascination with science. Hojo is still a stage parent although he doesn't receive fame from it. He still is willing to exploit his own child for scientific purposes and manipulate many aspects of his life in order to see the results.

I was pretty sure that the Ultimania added "as he says" regarding Lucrecia and Sephiroth. As for the club, I think Sephiroth would be, "creeped the fuck out" to find out the truth about Hojo. Maybe he would think Hojo cares about him? Who knows how that would have played out. Hojo was like a big Sephiroth fanboy, sort of. Anyone here see Black Swan? Maybe Hojo is like Nina's mom, who had pictures of her on the walls like a shrine. Imagine, Hojo's home with a Sephiroth shrine. I do wonder though, had Sephiroth not been Hojo's son but Vincent's or somebody else's, would he have been so involved with his life, creating a fan club for him, stayed at Shinra just for him (like in Before Crisis) and aided him at the end?

And I suppose I always liked the idea of Hojo being broken and depressed because of some kind of regret, uncertainty, inner conflict, because a lot of mad scientist characters usually had been "good" in a sense but slowly turned bad to worse from bullying, being an outcast or loner, failures and personal inadaquecy in some way, because Hojo looked so glum and sad, I mean in Crisis Core it's really obvious that he was when Zack comes to visit. He was slouched and glued to his clip board with his head down and when Zack speaks to him he tilts his head (physical sign of depression) and just drops his clip board arm down in such a limp careless way.

 

[jazzflower92]

I was pretty sure that the Ultimania added "as he says" regarding Lucrecia and Sephiroth. As for the club, I think Sephiroth would be, "creeped the fuck out" to find out the truth about Hojo. Maybe he would think Hojo cares about him? Who knows how that would have played out. Hojo was like a big Sephiroth fanboy, sort of. Anyone here see Black Swan? Maybe Hojo is like Nina's mom, who had pictures of her on the walls like a shrine. Imagine, Hojo's home with a Sephiroth shrine. I do wonder though, had Sephiroth not been Hojo's son but Vincent's or somebody else's, would he have been so involved with his life, creating a fan club for him, stayed at Shinra just for him (like in Before Crisis) and aided him at the end?

And I suppose I always liked the idea of Hojo being broken and depressed because of some kind of regret, uncertainty, inner conflict, because a lot of mad scientist characters usually had been "good" in a sense but slowly turned bad to worse from bullying, being an outcast or loner, failures and personal inadaquecy in some way, because Hojo looked so glum and sad, I mean in Crisis Core it's really obvious that he was when Zack comes to visit. He was slouched and glued to his clip board with his head down and when Zack speaks to him he tilts his head (physical sign of depression) and just drops his clip board arm down in such a limp careless way.

If he was a proper parent he would have given his son a normal childhood instead of using him for an experiment and lying to him about who his mother was. Nothing Hojo does is anything resembling parental love its all a superficial obsession he has with his son being a perfect being that is a product of his scientific work. Hojo is known to throw projects away if they don't prove successful in his eyes. He would have done the same to Sephiroth if he was a failure like Genesis. So, no it would be terrible to have a father like Hojo who is a sociopathic quack that has no qualms about destroying the world just because his offspring in his eyes has become his greatest work.

Sephiroth is only a piece of work to Hojo which he presides over and is obsessive to an unhealthy degree. If he did have a shrine to his own son it would be show how really disturbing he is. Parents who treat their children like prized trophies are nothing to be admired. Those kinds of parents put high expectations for their kids and always expect them to be perfect in every way. And much of the time these kinds of parents are control freaks that monitor and control every aspect of their child's life.

 

[Ozarkas]

If he was a proper parent he would have given his son a normal childhood instead of using him for an experiment and lying to him about who his mother was. Nothing Hojo does is anything resembling parental love its all a superficial obsession he has with his son being a perfect being that is a product of his scientific work. Hojo is known to throw projects away if they don't prove successful in his eyes. He would have done the same to Sephiroth if he was a failure like Genesis. So, no it would be terrible to have a father like Hojo who is a sociopathic quack that has no qualms about destroying the world just because his offspring in his eyes has become his greatest work.

Sephiroth is only a piece of work to Hojo which he presides over and is obsessive to an unhealthy degree. If he did have a shrine to his own son it would be show how really disturbing he is. Parents who treat their children like prized trophies are nothing to be admired. Those kinds of parents put high expectations for their kids and always expect them to be perfect in every way. And much of the time these kinds of parents are control freaks that monitor and control every aspect of their child's life.

Oh, I see. I agree with you about those kinds of parents. But Sephiroth doesn't care about making Hojo proud or living up to his expectations unlike the desperate football jock in movies who has an obsessive controlling dad but secretly he wants to be an artist or some shit but doesn't want to let daddy down meanwhile Sephiroth hates Hojo and probably doesn't give a single shit about his approval or opinions.

And even if Sephiroth was experimented on, what about the idea of it being for the child's own good? The aim of the experiment was to produce a being with the power of the ancients. The experiments and training made him strong, healthy, attractive (I guess), famous, rich, powerful, and overall amazing. He was secure with a good body working for the most powerful company in the world with a good job. He was like, in the 1% elite, the upper classes, and it's all thanks to HOJO. Without the Jenova cells? Would he have turned out average, dark haired and brown eyed? Weak, plain, average, nothing special? Yes.

 

[jazzflower92]

Oh, I see. I agree with you about those kinds of parents. But Sephiroth doesn't care about making Hojo proud or living up to his expectations unlike the desperate football jock in movies who has an obsessive controlling dad but secretly he wants to be an artist or some shit but doesn't want to let daddy down meanwhile Sephiroth hates Hojo and probably doesn't give a single shit about his approval or opinions.

And even if Sephiroth was experimented on, what about the idea of it being for the child's own good? The aim of the experiment was to produce a being with the power of the ancients. The experiments and training made him strong, healthy, attractive (I guess), famous, rich, powerful, and overall amazing. He was secure with a good body working for the most powerful company in the world with a good job. He was like, in the 1% elite, the upper classes, and it's all thanks to HOJO. Without the Jenova cells? Would he have turned out average, dark haired and brown eyed? Weak, plain, average, nothing special? Yes.

Lets also be frank it also led him down the path into a psycho maniac that almost destroyed the world twice. He was also trained all his life in isolation from the rest of society and was socially withdrawn because of it all. Sometimes children of parents who are have high expectations rebel and grow resentful. Sephiroth would be one of them even though he never knew that Hojo was his father. Shinra may have given Sephiroth outward perfection but they could not give him what he truly needed was unconditional love that he would not find until later in his life.

 

[Roger]

Oh, I see. I agree with you about those kinds of parents. But Sephiroth doesn't care about making Hojo proud or living up to his expectations unlike the desperate football jock in movies who has an obsessive controlling dad but secretly he wants to be an artist or some shit but doesn't want to let daddy down meanwhile Sephiroth hates Hojo and probably doesn't give a single shit about his approval or opinions.

And even if Sephiroth was experimented on, what about the idea of it being for the child's own good? The aim of the experiment was to produce a being with the power of the ancients. The experiments and training made him strong, healthy, attractive (I guess), famous, rich, powerful, and overall amazing. He was secure with a good body working for the most powerful company in the world with a good job. He was like, in the 1% elite, the upper classes, and it's all thanks to HOJO. Without the Jenova cells? Would he have turned out average, dark haired and brown eyed? Weak, plain, average, nothing special? Yes.

Lucretia and Hojo were both brilliant scientists and Lucretia was a bombshell. And Hojo himself is also in the elite who is shown to be a babemagnet. He's on the board of the directors that controlled the whole world. I'm pretty sure a normal raised Sephiroth would've been quite well off.

And you are blowing Hojo's frailty way the hell out of proportion. He's 60 years old in FFVII. He only looks that way at the time of Sephiroth's birth because DoC didn't want to make a new character model for him. Even in FFVII he still has the vigor to hijack the Sister Ray and fight the party.

 

[jazzflower92]

Lucretia and Hojo were both brilliant scientists and Lucretia was a bombshell. And Hojo himself is also in the elite who is shown to be a babemagnet. He's on the board of the directors that controlled the whole world. I'm pretty sure a normal raised Sephiroth would've been quite well off.

And you are blowing Hojo's frailty way the hell out of proportion. He's 60 years old in FFVII. He only looks that way at the time of Sephiroth's birth because DoC didn't want to make a new character model for him. Even in FFVII he still has the vigor to hijack the Sister Ray and fight the party.

Now that I think about I believe people have sympathy with Hojo is because of how frail he looks. It creates a sort of pity within someone that they have to defend a person like that. But as you said Hojo is not fragile person at all and is actually very repugnant plus obnoxious to be around. In fact no where in the games does Hojo comment on his wry looks or even care about it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ozarkas, here's that quote and a scan for you from pg. 198 of FFVII's Ultimania Omega:

http://i.imgur.com/v6GPrMM.jpg
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Vincent's Wrath
If Vincent is in the party when they go to the mako cannon's control platform, he will react to Hojo's statements. When Hojo declares that he treated his wife Lucrecia as a lab table and that his reason for intently watching over Sephiroth, who is his son, was to satisfy his appetite as a scientist, Vincent's anger is unleashed. Though all the party members will say a few words right after killing Hojo, Vincent's lines at that moment are particularly memorable.
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怒りのヴィンセント
パーティーにヴィンセントがいる態で魔晄キャノンの操作部へ行くと、宝条の話の合間合間にヴィンセントが反応する。妻ルクレシィアをただの実験台としてあつかい、息子であるセフィロスを見守る理由も科学者としての欲望のみと言ってのける宝条に、怒りをむき出しにするのだ。また、宝条を倒した直後はパーティーメンバーがひとこと述べるが、そのときのヴィンセントのセリフも、ひときわ感慨深げ。
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[jazzflower92]

Ozarkas, here's that quote and a scan for you from pg. 198 of FFVII's Ultimania Omega:

http://i.imgur.com/v6GPrMM.jpg
----
Vincent's Wrath
If Vincent is in the party when they go to the mako cannon's control platform, he will react to Hojo's statements. When Hojo declares that he treated his wife Lucrecia as a lab table and that his reason for intently watching over Sephiroth, who is his son, was to satisfy his appetite as a scientist, Vincent's anger is unleashed. Though all the party members will say a few words right after killing Hojo, Vincent's lines at that moment are particularly memorable.
----

----
怒りのヴィンセント
パーティーにヴィンセントがいる態で魔晄キャノンの操作部へ行くと、宝条の話の合間合間にヴィンセントが反応する。妻ルクレシィアをただの実験台としてあつかい、息子であるセフィロスを見守る理由も科学者としての欲望のみと言ってのける宝条に、怒りをむき出しにするのだ。また、宝条を倒した直後はパーティーメンバーがひとこと述べるが、そのときのヴィンセントのセリフも、ひときわ感慨深げ。
----

Even when someone pulls that Ultimania passage to Hojo sympathizers they still try to rationalize that he was trying to pretend not to care about his wife and son.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, hell, if we're going to just discard what he openly admits, we might as well call into question whether he's telling the truth about Sephiroth's paternity. A slippery slope to nonsense that.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, hell, if we're going to just discard what he openly admits, we might as well call into question whether he's telling the truth about Sephiroth's paternity. A slippery slope to nonsense that.

One thing they should have done in my opinion is have Sephiroth off Hojo. I just felt that could have been the most karmic and poetic way for that deranged scientist to die. Having his creation/offspring be the one to kill him. That is one thing that still gets me curious is when Sephiroth is controlling the Jenova body why did he not go and kill Hojo. I mean after tormenting Cloud that professor would be on his top five list of people he would have defiantly wanted to get back at.

I now have a funny picture in my head of Sephiroth wringing Hojo's skinny little neck.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What does he have to hold against Hojo? The scientist's machinations ensured Sephiroth came into his own as a superior being. All Hojo cared about was his research and all Sephiroth cared about was his pride. Clous was the only one to have hurt that.

 

[jazzflower92]

What does he have to hold against Hojo? The scientist's machinations ensured Sephiroth came into his own as a superior being. All Hojo cared about was his research and all Sephiroth cared about was his pride. Clous was the only one to have hurt that.

You've got a point there. After he is dropped into the life stream all he thinks about is Cloud for defeating him or how to skew him with his katana. The only point where he would have still held a grudge against Hojo is when he found out about his origins. I still wonder if Square will answer in any Ultimanias if Sephiroth found out when he was in the lifestream who his true parents are. I know its just speculation from the fandom that he did but there is no statement from Square itself. All they said in canon he found out about Jenova's true origins by absorbing the knowledge of the ancients.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

He either knew and didn't care or didn't know and didn't care.

And I still don't see why learning of his origins would have upset him, as, again, he was proud to inherit Jenova's power and will.

 

[jazzflower92]

He either knew and didn't care or didn't know and didn't care.

And I still don't see why learning of his origins would have upset him, as, again, he was proud to inherit Jenova's power and will.

Speaking of Jenova, whenever Hojo fans say that deep down he really cared for Lucrecia then I point how Hojo erased the fact that she was Sephiroth's mother and replaced her name with Jenova's.

 

[Roger]

One thing they should have done in my opinion is have Sephiroth off Hojo. I just felt that could have been the most karmic and poetic way for that deranged scientist to die. Having his creation/offspring be the one to kill him. That is one thing that still gets me curious is when Sephiroth is controlling the Jenova body why did he not go and kill Hojo. I mean after tormenting Cloud that professor would be on his top five list of people he would have defiantly wanted to get back at.

I now have a funny picture in my head of Sephiroth wringing Hojo's skinny little neck.

Cloud and Vincent are his creations as well, I'm satisfied with the way things are now.

 

[jazzflower92]

Getting back to the main topic. Does anyone think that they actually researched some extreme real life Sephiroth fans in order to get a feel for the members of the Sliver Elite club?

 

[Clement Rage]

Sephiroth: I'm going to kill you.

Hojo: I've never been so proud of you.

Seriously, that's how I think it'd happen. By the time he takes over the cannon, Hojo is willing to die to prove how awesome his son is, I don't think he'd mind dying to him that much, it would just prove how powerful his project was in his mind.

Regarding Lucrecia being viewed as an object, where I question that is : Why did he marry her, then? We know the Turks exist, he could easily have just ordered someone kidnapped at random, that's pretty much the definition of their job. So why did he pick a very high ranked Shinra scientist to be the mother? In terms of pure clinical utility, it would be much easier to order the Turks to kidnap a pregnant woman at random, why unnecessarily alienate an irreplaceable colleague(Lucy was in the top tiers of the department, right)?

I don't think they need to research extreme fans, they just have to look at their postboxes.

 

[Roger]

Sephiroth: I'm going to kill you.

Hojo: I've never been so proud of you.

Seriously, that's how I think it'd happen. By the time he takes over the cannon, Hojo is willing to die to prove how awesome his son is, I don't think he'd mind dying to him that much, it would just prove how powerful his project was in his mind.

Regarding Lucrecia being viewed as an object, where I question that is : Why did he marry her, then? We know the Turks exist, he could easily have just ordered someone kidnapped at random, that's pretty much the definition of their job. So why did he pick a very high ranked Shinra scientist to be the mother? In terms of pure clinical utility, it would be much easier to order the Turks to kidnap a pregnant woman at random, why unnecessarily alienate an irreplaceable colleague(Lucy was in the top tiers of the department, right)?

I don't think they need to research extreme fans, they just have to look at their postboxes.

She's smart, pretty and asked him. I don't Hojo cared for Lucretia as a wife much but he undoubtably cared for maintaining his workrelations even less. I'd call Gast an irreplaceable resource too but look what happened to him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I'd say it was just convenient since she volunteered. He isn't above coercion, obviously, but he's probably not going to pick that route for its own sake either.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, I'd say it was just convenient since she volunteered. He isn't above coercion, obviously, but he's probably not going to pick that route for its own sake either.

Yeah, having a willing volunteer is easier than an unwilling one.

 

[Roger]

Anyway until Crisis Core reordered things to make room for Project G it was hardly neccesarily Hojo's idea in the first place.