Hojo and the Silver Elite

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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Minato Arisato said:
She's smart, pretty and asked him. I don't Hojo cared for Lucretia as a wife much but he undoubtably cared for maintaining his workrelations even less. I'd call Gast an irreplaceable resource too but look what happened to him.
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Gast stole valued research specimen and ran for the hills, it's not the same. For the rest, maybe.
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Clement Rage said:
Gast stole valued research specimen and ran for the hills, it's not the same. For the rest, maybe.
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Hey, Lucrecia in Hojo's mind was just a carrier that served her purpose. Frankly Hojo just has the tendency to view people as obstacles or possible specimens.
 
O

Ozarkas

Rookie Adventurer
The original game was not too revealing about the Hojo and Lucrecia situation. I do not like Dirge of Cerberus very much because I believe the plot doesn't fit with the original. After all, it was not even written by the original Final Fantasy VII writers.

It does not matter what I say, because all of you are convinced that Hojo was a heartless psychopath with no character depth who did not care about Lucrecia or Sephiroth, even though I like to believe that he felt something for them, even if it was not traditional love.

Hojo was not a cruel serial killer. In the original game, all he did was shoot Vincent after he was cornered by him (he pulled at his hair which showed that he was frustrated) and he shot Gast after he ran off with a real Cetra. Even if Hojo had not come after him, Shinra would have caught up with Gast and taken Ifalna anyway. Didn't Hojo actually suggest that Gast return to Shinra before he shot him? I was only under the impression that he shot Gast once Gast refused to give up his Cetra woman. As for Sephiroth, I still have mixed feelings about that. All of you on here are making comments about how it was wrong for Hojo to infuse him with Jenova cells, that it would have been better for him to be normal. If he were normal, he would literally be no one. Just another average guy, probably with dark hair and weaker. The experiments made him great, just like parents who put pressure on their kids to be in sports. Only this is far more extreme that the super strict dad who puts his son through rigorous football training since age three.

The only other times that he is psychopathic is when he uses the Nibelheim survivors for his Jenova Reunion project and the fact that the tanks in the reactor were filled with innocent SOLDIERS and Hojo no doubt felt zero remorse for that. Oh, and the thing with Aerith but once she gets away he doesn't really bother with her or even Red XIII. He does not kill and torture for pleasure and psychopaths are usually not described as having depression and Hojo clearly appeared that way.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Ozarkas said:
The original game was not too revealing about the Hojo and Lucrecia situation. I do not like Dirge of Cerberus very much because I believe the plot doesn't fit with the original. After all, it was not even written by the original Final Fantasy VII writers.

It does not matter what I say, because all of you are convinced that Hojo was a heartless psychopath with no character depth who did not care about Lucrecia or Sephiroth, even though I like to believe that he felt something for them, even if it was not traditional love.

Hojo was not a cruel serial killer. In the original game, all he did was shoot Vincent after he was cornered by him (he pulled at his hair which showed that he was frustrated) and he shot Gast after he ran off with a real Cetra. Even if Hojo had not come after him, Shinra would have caught up with Gast and taken Ifalna anyway. Didn't Hojo actually suggest that Gast return to Shinra before he shot him? I was only under the impression that he shot Gast once Gast refused to give up his Cetra woman. As for Sephiroth, I still have mixed feelings about that. All of you on here are making comments about how it was wrong for Hojo to infuse him with Jenova cells, that it would have been better for him to be normal. If he were normal, he would literally be no one. Just another average guy, probably with dark hair and weaker. The experiments made him great, just like parents who put pressure on their kids to be in sports. Only this is far more extreme that the super strict dad who puts his son through rigorous football training since age three.

The only other times that he is psychopathic is when he uses the Nibelheim survivors for his Jenova Reunion project and the fact that the tanks in the reactor were filled with innocent SOLDIERS and Hojo no doubt felt zero remorse for that. Oh, and the thing with Aerith but once she gets away he doesn't really bother with her or even Red XIII. He does not kill and torture for pleasure and psychopaths are usually not described as having depression and Hojo clearly appeared that way.
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So "all" he did was shoot Vincent in frustration, kill Gast because he refused to cooperate with the lifelong imprisoning of his wife and 2 minutes old daughter for experimentation, experiment on Vincent and then leave him in the Shinra Mansion, create monsters, create Sephiroth by injecting his wife with Jenova cells that as far we know (if we indeed discount DoC) did horrible thing to her body, experiment on Red XIII, turn Cloud, Zack and other Nibelheim survivors including children into Sephiroth clones, neglect to tell anyone about the world-endangering Weapons that were created to combat the thing he is basically trying to recreate, tried to get Red XIII to violently impregnate Aerith and oh yeah, tried to help Sephiroth destroy the entire world.

But at least he didn't allow his son to have dark hair, so how evil can he be?
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Minato Arisato said:
So "all" he did was shoot Vincent in frustration, kill Gast because he refused to cooperate with the lifelong imprisoning of his wife and 2 minutes old daughter for experimentation, experiment on Vincent and then leave him in the Shinra Mansion, create monsters, create Sephiroth by injecting his wife with Jenova cells that as far we know (if we indeed discount DoC) did horrible thing to her body, experiment on Red XIII, turn Cloud, Zack and other Nibelheim survivors including children into Sephiroth clones, neglect to tell anyone about the world-endangering Weapons that were created to combat the thing he is basically trying to recreate, tried to get Red XIII to violently impregnate Aerith and oh yeah, tried to help Sephiroth destroy the entire world.

But at least he didn't allow his son to have dark hair, so how evil can he be?
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Add to the fact that he never allowed Lucrecia to hold Sephiroth when he was born or see him at all and erased her existence then had all documentations say that Jenova was his mother. Plus the fact it was implied in the original game that he arranged for Sephiroth to be sent to Nibelheim in order to see what effects Jenova would have on him.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Ozarkas, your use of "only" and "all he did" is fairly alarming. Are you actually thinking any of this through at all?

"Gast refused to hand over his wife and infant child to be lab rats. It's not Hojo's fault he didn't cooperate! It was completely out of his hands at that point!"

You sound like that.
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hawkeye said:
Ozarkas, your use of "only" and "all he did" is fairly alarming. Are you actually thinking any of this through at all?

"Gast refused to hand over his wife and infant child to be lab rats. It's not Hojo's fault he didn't cooperate! It was completely out of his hands at that point!"

You sound like that.
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And that is why Gast is more moral than Hojo because he did not see his own family as things to experiment on.
 
Unlucky

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Ozarkas said:
It does not matter what I say, because all of you are convinced that Hojo was a heartless psychopath with no character depth who did not care about Lucrecia or Sephiroth,
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Well.. is he not?? The OG alone showed that pretty straight up, he himself never showed otherwise!

even though I like to believe that he felt something for them, even if it was not traditional love.
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But that's it-- your idealized version of Hojo is headcanon or AU at best. There's really nothing that supports this.
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Unlucky said:
Well.. is he not?? The OG alone showed that pretty straight up, he himself never showed otherwise!



But that's it-- your idealized version of Hojo is headcanon or AU at best. There's really nothing that supports this.
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Yeah, Hojo is plainly obviously evil with no hidden redeeming factors. Try to find his heart and you will probably locate a black hole swirling in his chest. Hojo is a type of villain where one just has nothing but hate for and has no real reasons for his atrocities except a self interested obsession with science. He only is interested in his son because Sephiroth is a successful experiment that came from his efforts. Hojo would not have any interest in his own child if he was proven to be a failure. In fact Hojo would have just dumped Sephiroth by the wayside and started over to make a more successful project.

Hojo and Sephiroth would have to be one of the most darkest parental relationships in Final Fantasy if you really think deeply how messed everything is between the two. There is something extremely unsettling about a person who sees their own offspring as fodder for experimentation with no remorse about the possible consequences. He just wanted to see his research bloom more and more which meant he would step on anyone in order to see his goals met.
 
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Dawnbreaker

Dawnbreaker

~The Other Side of Fear~
They're right--you can't just claim Hojo isn't something he is. Well, you can, but that's just what you want it to be, not what it is. I didn't want Aerith to die, or Vincent to be locked in a basement, but hell, the story is what it is, and turning it around to suit your personal tastes is just pointless. Go write a story where a Hojo-like character actually has a heart. Then you can say YOUR character isn't heartless.

Hojo is unredeemable. You can twist things a lot and squeeze out something that resembles parental affection, but you're looking for that, rather than objectively assessing his personality. You want to see that he cares for his wife and child so you see that he does. When you step back and review all the horrible things he did to the two of them, you cannot reasonably conclude that he cared for them. There is no 'not-traditional love'. If you love someone you do not do them harm, end story.
 
jazzflower92

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Hawkeye said:
Yeah, it's either love or disregard/selfishness. "Non-traditional love" isn't even a thing.
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And so far the latter has more support in canon. There is a big difference between those who don't know how to express their love and people like Hojo who view even their spouse and child as tools to use. Hojo blatantly disregarded his own wife when she no longer served a purpose then selfishly used Sephiroth throughout his whole life as one big science project.
 
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