Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (gameplay/combat)

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
But it doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

Yes, it does. :monster:
Mako said:
Developers have used such a system effectively with plenty of single player RPGs. It was done with FFXIII and it's still one of the most challenging and strategic games in the series.

Case in point.

It was indeed "used effectively" -- but unfortunately, "effectively" here doesn't involve a positive effect.

Mako said:
No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of a real time clock that limits how much exploration and preparation you could do until facing the consequence of Game Over.

Certain portions of the game are timed as challenges but not entire portions and certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and side quests are finally given to the player.

No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of an artificially imposed growth cap that limits how much combat exploration and preparation you could do. Certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and sidequests are finally given to the player.

Mako said:
That's good for you, but you do realize some players actually hate when they over-level through the sheer consequence of never running from battles, right?

That's where "Making It Yours" becomes the option that most matters. Other players' irresponsible approach to their own experience isn't my responsibility.

EDIT:
Pretend it's not there. :mon:

:bigawesomonster:
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Yes, it does. :monster:

Well if you feel that way, that's an issue you'd have to take up with the entire nature and premise of FFVII being episodic and spread out over 4 or more games.

But the die has been cast. The entire system is going to be changed and made to accommodate the type of game FFVII Remake is. Shoehorning the same type of level system you'd find in a single complete game, into a game that is episodic and incomplete creates errors and issues that adversely affect the game and make the subsequent enemies and battles either pathetically weak or power-creeped to an obnoxious level.

Case in point.

It was indeed "used effectively" -- but unfortunately, "effectively" here doesn't involve a positive effect.

So I take it you're not a fan of XIII's Crystarium system. That's fair and you're more than entitled to that, but lots did and found it offered a gameplay experience more in line with a traditional and challenging RPG. Players didn't get to steam roll their way through bosses and battles were significantly challenging thanks to it.

A game and it's players are better served with an overall balanced and healthily challenging gameplay experience over a system that makes battles a superfluous exercise or a grueling deathmatch where a single hit wipes you out unless you level grinded a chapter ago.

No entire chapter/portion/level/etc of FFVII has ever been under the constant pressure of an artificially imposed growth cap that limits how much combat exploration and preparation you could do. Certainly not the last part of the game where open exploration and sidequests are finally given to the player.

No version of FFVII has been released in an episodic format where each entry serves as it's own game and will have years of development time between them.

Yet here we are :mon:

The game's wildly different from the OG in terms of its battle system, abilities and combat system from the start. It might as well change its progression system to best accommodate this change, instead of clash with it at the expense of proper game design.

My issue with Meteor starting a countdown on the game was the arbitrary addition of a time-limit system ala Lightning Returns to the final portion of the game where it didn't exist elsewhere, and how it limits the player's ability to explore and do side-quests which are things the creators said they wanna include.

Now if FFVII Remake wanted to introduce an entire dynamic real-time clock system where everything in the game factored in time, which meant a player had to be aware of their playing and completion time for all quests and plot progression, then fair enough. I dunno how much I'd like that but at least I and others would know what we were going into.

It's sticking such a discordant gameplay element in one part of the game, the last part of the game where exploration and preparation are most done, that I said would be poor game design and completely out of place. Adding contradictory or random gameplay elements that are outside the genre, or design of the majority of the main game only frustrates and confuses players.

That's where "Making It Yours" becomes the option that most matters. Other players' irresponsible approach to their own experience isn't my responsibility.

But that's not necessarily a game designer's most prioritized option. They want to make the experience and presentation the best possible for most players. If they let the leveling and materia system grow unencumbered in each of the episodes, then one of two adverse consequences occur.

The player may become so over-powered that no enemy in the game poses any threat whatsoever. This breaks story immersion and makes the battle system nothing but a meaningless grind. Players may say they're okay with this and they may even be okay with it for awhile. But eventually battles lose their interest and it all just becomes an empty exercise done to get from one scene to the next.

The other outcome is the designers have to ramp up the strength and power of enemies for the Remake's battle system higher and higher, to the point where either players have to power level in each episode and reach as close to the cap of stats as possible, or they get destroyed by mobs and bosses. This means that each game is a further escalation and challenge to the point that anyone who doesn't carry over from a previous episode will have a hard time or need a handicap. This creates battles that are difficult to the point of painful frustration and combat is no longer enjoyed.

Whether the diminished gameplay is the fault of an irresponsible player or not, it still reflects a failure on the part of the game designer who wishes to ensure the game gives a positive and favorable experience to all players. Lots of bugs, exploits or piss poor game design elements can be worked around and avoided if one is aware of them. Yet by their very existence, they serve as a flaw a designer would want to avoid.

The design, abilities and presentation of materia, magic and summons would also have to be subsequently ramped up in each episode, to the point of absurdity. No longer is there a neat and clean system of graduating spells and stuff. There would have to be Fire, Fira and Firaga... And then the next evolution of those spells and materia! Fire II, Fira II, and Firaga II!

A new level of abilities and spells to correspond with the increased difficulty and additional levels that would be presumably added with each episode. It would be a nightmare in terms of development and design. It's messy and superfluous. If each episode is going to increase the ceiling of levels, materia, etc.. Why not just work from the other end, cap the stats and lift them as needed? Either way a ramp up is happening. One is cleaner and doesn't box the game designers in a corner with a pseudo-arms races against their own battle system.
 
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Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
That's a superficial quibble. Pretend it's not there. :mon: Unless you think materia growth should be stunted too.

At least with Ite's idea, grinding AP still serves a purpose and you get rewarded upon carry over and level up. If you want to just stop it's growth. Okay.
I mean. . . yeah? If you're stunting part of a character's growth, why would you not stunt the whole thing? That makes no sense. Why grind for AP when your character level is capped and the spell you're grinding for isn't even usable? And this is all assuming that the people doing the grinding know that spell isn't usable beforehand.

After all of their talk about these being standalone titles, there's something really wrong if the goal of endgame grinding is to prep for the next game that doesn't even have a release date, platform, or even a projected scope yet.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I mean. . . yeah? If you're stunting part of a character's growth, why would you not stunt the whole thing? That makes no sense. Why grind for AP when your character level is capped and the spell you're grinding for isn't even usable? And this is all assuming that the people doing the grinding know that spell isn't usable beforehand.

Why?

Because the materia will carry over to the next episode. Upon a level cap lifting, the spells you unlocked on materia you didn't have capacity to cast, are now yours. You're rewarded for your tenacity in grinding.

And how would they not know it's not useable beforehand? You're unable to amass enough MP to cast the spell because the level cap is reached. That spells it out.

After all of their talk about these being standalone titles, there's something really wrong if the goal of endgame grinding is to prep for the next game that doesn't even have a release date, platform, or even a projected scope yet.

Umm. They meant stand alone titles in regards to size, scale and content to enjoy. Do you really expect Cloud to be capable of learning Omnislash in Part 1 of this game?

Do you think Enemy Skill materia will be found here? And if it is, what do you think happens with the Materia and it's fate upon completion of the game and the start of the next episode?

Regardless of it being stand-alone, you're simply not going to have access to everything. And it will rely on an expectation and faith of another episode to keep you engaged. The game's ending is 100% going to be a teaser for what comes next.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
A Aame and it's players are better served with an overall balanced and healthily challenging gameplay experience over a system that makes battles a superfluous exercise or a grueling deathmatch where a single hit wipes you out unless you level grinded a chapter ago.

A game -- especially an RPG -- and its players are better served with options. Surely most gamers, yourself included, would agree with that.

After all of their talk about these being standalone titles, there's something really wrong if the goal of endgame grinding is to prep for the next game that doesn't even have a release date, platform, or even a projected scope yet.
I'd add to this that there is also something really wrong if the player goes unrewarded for endgame leveling when/if the next parts come out.

Having both of these problems simultaneously is just another reason I personally feel the production of this remake is already in trouble -- but that's a discussion for elsewhere.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I don’t know what y’all’s issue with level caps are. You couldn’t go beyond 99 in the OG, with a recommended final boss level 60-70, and that didn’t seem to be a problem. If the level cap here is 30, and the recommended level for Motorball is 15, why should that feel any different? The secret boss should be a challenge at level 30.

Regarding materia: you could make all materia 1-star only, with a cap on AP that revealed a second star denoting ‘mastery’! Congratulations! You earned 2500 AP and “maxed out” Restore! You can now cast Cura, but the materia will no longer grow. It’s 2-stars! The end... for now.

Edit: I was thinking that the actual 2-Star materia don’t appear in Midgar, but then there’s Sense...
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
A game -- especially an RPG -- and its players are better served with options. Surely most gamers, yourself included, would agree with that.

Of course, options are great and preferred! But I don't really see this as an "option" issue. I see it more as an impending game design flaw or exploit that if left unchecked will have adverse effects on either gameplay for players, or development for battle and strategy designers.

You leave stat/level growth unrestrained alongside materia growth then something bad will happen. A large number of players are gonna be dissatisfied and rightfully so. The game will either devolve into a cakewalk or CHAOS levels of frustrating degeneracy.

I forgot there was a third option. The developers simply give no fucks and say there's no carryover whatsoever. Every game starts from level 1. No equipment carry over, you re-learn limits alongside new ones, you have to obtain new and different materia, and each game is literally that. A new game.

I doubt that'd be popular either. I certainly would hate it.

The developers have to choose a solution. The best of both worlds to me, is having a level cap in each game, allowing stats, materia, equipment and skills to carry over, and let the level cap lift each entry so the design is consistent and development runs smoothly. The creators can pick up and continue where they left off with each game and not have to go hard on finding ways to greatly increase the challenge and strength of enemies.

It sucks reaching a level ceiling but that's the nature of episodic games. The criticism and unhappiness over it can be overcome by good combat, content and creative scenarios that leave the game fun regardless of level. In the end "level" is just numbers. If the game is fun, thrilling, challenging and visually appealing, it doesn't matter if Cross-Slash is dealing 99 damage or 9999 damage. It's about the gameplay. Not numbers.


I'd add to this that there is also something really wrong if the player goes unrewarded for endgame leveling when/if the next parts come out.

I agree. If there's no carry over I'm not gonna be as inclined, invested or interested in leveling up everyone or mastering materia. I'm only going to do the bare minimum to get by and depending on the extra content, I might skip it. I'd rather put my all in the installment that's final or has the most content that is immediately appealing.

Having both of these problems simultaneously is just another reason I personally feel the production of this remake is already in trouble -- but that's a discussion for elsewhere.

Well these problems are both an issue but I will say I think the most important issue is carry over, honestly.

If S-E makes it to where nothing carries over or matters from part 1, that's gonna sting the most and illicit the harshest criticism. People are primed to notice something lost over something gained. And it won't matter how many new additions to gameplay or materia or skills are added in the next part, if players feel like their effort is lost with each new entry, affection for the Remake will sour.

The gameplay getting ridiculous with each new entry due to power creep (from either players or enemies) won't be as apparent until release or if a demo shows it. That'll be more an issue in the future but will be a big problem down the line.
 

FFShinra

Sharp Shinra Shill
In terms of materia/equipment, I would say they should lose it when imprisoned in the Shinra Building.
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
Why?

Because the materia will carry over to the next episode. Upon a level cap lifting, the spells you unlocked on materia you didn't have capacity to cast, are now yours. You're rewarded for your tenacity in grinding.

And how would they not know it's not useable beforehand? You're unable to amass enough MP to cast the spell because the level cap is reached. That spells it out.

Umm. They meant stand alone titles in regards to size, scale and content to enjoy. Do you really expect Cloud to be capable of learning Omnislash in Part 1 of this game?

Do you think Enemy Skill materia will be found here? And if it is, what do you think happens with the Materia and it's fate upon completion of the game and the start of the next episode?

Regardless of it being stand-alone, you're simply not going to have access to everything. And it will rely on an expectation and faith of another episode to keep you engaged. The game's ending is 100% going to be a teaser for what comes next.
No, I don't expect Omnislash in the first game, I don't know where that came from. All I'm saying is that whatever you're shown in the first game should be something you could use. I think Mr. Ite has the right take if they're going to have a cap; master a materia at two stars, it stops growing, and you're rewarded for it in part 2. Not leveling a materia past your ability to actually use the thing.
I'd add to this that there is also something really wrong if the player goes unrewarded for endgame leveling when/if the next parts come out.

Having both of these problems simultaneously is just another reason I personally feel the production of this remake is already in trouble -- but that's a discussion for elsewhere.
Agreed. All I'm saying is that your reward for endgame grinding doesn't have to be exactly what you had before. Some kind of bonus is a given, but if its better for the balance of the second game that they reset some things I think it's a sacrifice that should be made.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No, I don't expect Omnislash in the first game, I don't know where that came from. All I'm saying is that whatever you're shown in the first game should be something you could use. I think Mr. Ite has the right take if they're going to have a cap; master a materia at two stars, it stops growing, and you're rewarded for it in part 2. Not leveling a materia past your ability to actually use the thing.

... That's. Literally what I just said and Ite and I were in agreement over.

You master a materia and upon transfer to a new game, you gain the next level of the spell you couldn't use before.

A materia you level up or master never became unusable in FFVII. You could theoretically level up Restore materia to 3 stars grinding out in Midgar but not have enough MP for Cure 3. However that would in no way stop you from using the materia for Cure 2 or Cure. It's still usable.

Gaining the ability to use the magic that you couldn't cast before but leveled the materia To reach on the next chapter, was what I was saying from the start.
 
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ChipNoir

Pro Adventurer
Some people really didn't like that about the Crystarium. I was totally fine with it, because it meant that if I got stuck, the solution was strategy and not grinding.

But doing that for an ENDGAME, where we have nothing to do but run around Midgar for at least 2 years. Being unable to develop anyone over that time seems like it would be considerably more controversial.

Maybe you say you can grind all the way up but it gets reset to a certain level at the start of part 2 and maybe people like that better than starting over at level 1. I don't know. Every solution feels like something about it is unsatisfying or frustrating.

The real problems of the crysterium had little to do with the caps. The problems are that there are very few abilities to learn to switch things up. The game is highly calculated towards giving you EXACTLY what you need to beat the boss of the area. It's also shortchanged by the fact that the ENTIRE group levels up at the same time. So most of the time you're already maxed out after finishing a chapter, and the next one requires virtually no grinding or choice making.

What they should have done was increased the number of lateral abilities, not done a group-earn bank, and also made the weapon/armor upgrade system more integral so that there's always something different to focus on.

Caps really don't come into it.
 

Cannon_Fodder

Pro Adventurer
... That's. Literally what I just said and Ite and I were in agreement over.

You master a materia and upon transfer to a new game, you gain the next level of the spell you couldn't use before.

A materia you level up or master never became unusable in FFVII. You could theoretically level up Restore materia to 3 stars grinding out in Midgar but not have enough MP for Cure 3. However that would in no way stop you from using the materia for Cure 2 or Cure. It's still usable.

Gaining the ability to use the magic that you couldn't cast before but leveled the materia To reach on the next chapter, was what I was saying from the start.
Well, I was never arguing that point. Literally all I was saying is that in the first game you shouldn't see the levels of spells you couldn't access, whether its due to a mastery limit or a limit on AP. In game 2 they can add the levels you couldn't access before, that's fine.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don’t know what y’all’s issue with level caps are. You couldn’t go beyond 99 in the OG, with a recommended final boss level 60-70, and that didn’t seem to be a problem.
Disregarding your equivocation of apples and pineapples, you highlight the very point in need of being made, and I will add an underline: just make the level cap 99 (out of a possible 99) again. Then there's no issue.

Only those who are willing to torture themselves accruing a little EXP at a time in a million fights with comparatively minimal EXP-yielding enemies would see the benefit of it going into a hypothetical Part 2 with stat transfer anyway. The hell ya'll so scared of?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Because if it's a "full-length RPG," I would expect to be a decent proportion of the way to 99 by the end of the game just by playing it normally. Which bodes for some boring latter parts through either grindy power creep or lack of challenge.

I do find the idea that you're okay with a level cap as long as that's as high as the level cap ever is across the series of games interesting, though. XV has raised it's level cap multiple times since its release.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Because if it's a "full-length RPG," I would expect to be a decent proportion of the way to 99 by the end of the game just by playing it normally.

Why? If 15 or 20 is the recommended level for finishing while maintaining a decent challenge, what then does it matter if the cap is 30 or 99 if they're allowing one to go beyond the recommended level to begin with?

Again, at higher levels, more EXP is going to be required to the next level up anyway, so only those who have the patience to play a lot are going to be getting to levels recommended for Part 2 or Part 3 off the EXP scraps of Midgar enemies.

Force said:
I do find the idea that you're okay with a level cap as long as that's as high as the level cap ever is across the series of games interesting, though. XV has raised it's level cap multiple times since its release.
They raised it once, from Level 99 to 120, three weeks before adding a new Level 140 superboss.
 

LoonySpectre

Pro Adventurer
I forgot there was a third option. The developers simply give no fucks and say there's no carryover whatsoever. Every game starts from level 1. No equipment carry over, you re-learn limits alongside new ones, you have to obtain new and different materia, and each game is literally that. A new game.
A similar system was used in Mass Effect (though it was justified by Shepard being literally killed at the start of Mass Effect 2) and The Witcher (which had no justification outside of "well, yes, you could kill a dragon by a hard stare at the end of the last game, but now you have to re-learn all your simplest magic all over again").
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
GOLD SAUCER MINI-GAMES

Riding HD chocobos
Snowboarding in HD (yeah, I know I can snowboard near the Icicle Inn, but I always revisit that mini-game in Gold Saucer)
Shooting game in HD
I guess the new gameplay can apply in Battle Square and G-Bike minigames?

What? Mini-games can be considered gameplay, right? Please don't tell me they won't include Gold Saucer minigames in the remake?

EDIT: Oh wait. The first disc is just gonna cover Midgar, right? Oh damn, no Golden Saucer yet. I'm really out of the loop.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Why? If 15 or 20 is the recommended level for finishing while maintaining a decent challenge, what then does it matter if the cap is 30 or 99 if they're allowing one to go beyond the recommended level to begin with?

Because I find it hard to believe we're gonna have a 'full-length FF RPG' where you only gain 15 levels through normal play.

They raised it once, from Level 99 to 120, three weeks before adding a new Level 140 superboss.

Fair enough, corrected. But I'm assuming you had no issue with this?
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
I think it's important to remember there is little concrete information. They could do anything.

There might not even BE grinding. There could be a set number of enemies in the game. You might not even level in a familiar fashion anyway. What if it's mission completion that changes your health stats instead of enemy defeating?

What if carry-over is handled in a mathematic fashion? You could level up to 99 in this game, but that would set you at 15 in the sequel. Ending at level 50 would put you around 7. And so on.

My point is, they could do anything. Most sequels do a complete reset. And it's annoying. But that is what sequels tend to do, so that is what I am personally expecting. It's my worst case scenario. Hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yeah I expect a reset, maybe not to 1, but to a predetermined amount. OR a reset because the battle system is different, which is how Lightning Returns handled it.

But yeah, exactly everything is possible, so who knows! I just can't think of an option that avoids all potential issues. To say nothing of the concern I've had before - what if there's a bunch of feedback about an element of the systems in this one and so they overhaul everything for part 2 and it's completely different? That'll feel...strange, to say the least. But what choice would they have if people vehemently don't like something about one part?

And again, I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of this part no matter what, even if they never release another. But this has been my biggest point of confusion ever since they announced the multiple-full-games-thing.
 

XxREUNIONxX

Rookie Adventurer
Here's another thought:
If players are indeed able to carry over stats/levels/materia, perhaps part 2 will have several levels of difficulty (easy/normal/hard/critical). The game could then suggest the optimal difficulty level based on whatever you may have carried over from the 1st part.

If a system such as this were implemented, it would give players a choice as to how they'd like to experience part 2. If you max leveled in part 1 and wanted to steamroll all the enemies on an easier difficulty level, so be it. On the flip side, even with max carryover, the critical difficulty option would still provide a challenge for more hardcore players.

Not sure if this would be the optimal way to manage a hypothetical carryover system. Just some extra thoughts as to how SE might be able to work around these issues.
 
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