Hopes for the remake (story/content)

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Well perhaps more clever than devious, bad choice of words. But by that point in the remake, he might have more development than in the original since Midgar's an entire game and he can't go that long without any growth at all. Besides, even in the original, he never actually gives a spoken response to her offer, he just nods - which can be taken, I think, as either full knowing agreement or a "fine, whatever" type of thing. However you want to interpret it.

And Maiden, what parallel are you talking about, and what action of Zack's are you comparing it to? It's been a while since I've played Crisis Core so I don't remember a lot of it. Gackt/Genesis Avoidance Syndrome, probably.
 
Zack offers to repay Aerith back for her help with a date! <3 I also always took Aerith and Cloud's exchange in the church (Cloud also does some kind of hand gesture towards Aerith after the nod which I always took as some kind of flirty wag or something but that's just me :desucait:) and on the rooftops to be flirting but Aerith as a character has received flak for asking Cloud out before however when CC came out I think the Zack/Aerith date as payment thing was a nice parallel to the Aerith/Cloud one :joy:
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Oh, okay. Dunno why she'd get criticism just for asking him out, unless it's because of the way she did it. And I can see the parallel, though you'd think they could have come up with a different way for them to meet besides him falling through her roof just the same as Cloud and BC's Turk. Each meeting should have happened differently instead of repeating the same approach over and over again.

And I wonder about the date offer because of how it may affect the affection system for Part 1 if it's present, given that Part 1 could have as many as three possible options for such a system - Aerith, Tifa, and Jessie.
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
More Sephiroth which we been seeing and more Cloud x Tifa x Aerith stuff and more Jessie stuff too actually I want to see lot of awesome stuff in remake one other is bahamut and Odin and knights of the round I hope they return and have epic designs
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Been thinking, and I hope there's more to Jessie's feelings for Cloud than just the flirting. What I mean is, I hope they didn't just have her doing that through her part of the story and decide that that was all they needed to do about her feelings. What I hope for in regards to her is to see the underlying feelings actually addressed and spoken about at some point, resolved in some way instead of being forgotten like they were in the original game. I want to feel like there's more to how she feels about him than just the flirting and that that's only an outward expression of it but not the entirety of it. And that she and Cloud have more scenes alone together than just the one in the cargo car of the train from the original.
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
Been thinking, and I hope there's more to Jessie's feelings for Cloud than just the flirting. What I mean is, I hope they didn't just have her doing that through her part of the story and decide that that was all they needed to do about her feelings. What I hope for in regards to her is to see the underlying feelings actually addressed and spoken about at some point, resolved in some way instead of being forgotten like they were in the original game. I want to feel like there's more to how she feels about him than just the flirting and that that's only an outward expression of it but not the entirety of it. And that she and Cloud have more scenes alone together than just the one in the cargo car of the train from the original.
I know exactly what you mean so far we saw in two trailers her giving cloud materia for saving her and them on a bike running, also cloud saving her two times in that demo. Also see more of what was happening during the plate falling part mainly during the battle on tower.

We know what is gonna happen to her but like you I want to see more character interactions and from what trailers been giving us that seems to be the case though it could change considering trailers always say that this is footage in development and likely to change upon final version we will just have to wait and see
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I understand, but what I meant was just the two of them with no one else around (or at least far enough away that they might as well have not been there). In the bike scenes, Biggs and Wedge are there on the other bike and they're in the middle of chase. Not the same thing I was talking about. In the demo during the times he helped her, it never felt to me like she was in immediate danger - like if Cloud didn't act within the next few seconds, she'd have been a goner. That's something else I want to see, because just pulling a chunk of rock off her foot doesn't have the immediacy and feel of saving her life, which is what her later comment says he did. I just hope she's talking about something we haven't seen yet - Tifa shouldn't be the only one to get a dramatic rescue, after all.
 
Jairus, I'm curious: do you come across a lot of other fans who are keen to see Jessie play a bigger role as a romantic interest for Cloud? Is there quite a club of you out there?
(I'm not trying to make a dig, honest. Someone with my OTP is in no position to criticise anyone else, and anyway I believe in ship and let ship.) I'm just really interested to know how big the demand is out there.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Well, there wasn't a Clessie club here until I made one, but there are a number of people out there who do like the ship. I've seen them on youtube and twitter and gamefaqs and such (though we face a lot of ridicule and criticism on gamefaqs for it). I'm hoping that grows with the release of the remake. She's just always been such an underrated and underloved character, always lost and forgotten in the shadow of Aerith and Tifa. Me and others like me just hope the remake gives her a chance to have at least a little bit of that connection with Cloud that she always wanted and provide some validation for the ship - because unlike most non-Clerith/Cloti ships, this one actually has the potential for that due to Jessie already having those feelings from the beginning in the original game along with Cloud being able to flirt with her a few times if the player wanted him to.

Making her an option in Part 1's affection system at the very least (if not giving the ship a little service and development outside of that) is, to me and those like me, simply a natural extension of what was already present in the original game. We just want to see more one-on-one interactions between the two and the ship's potential at least acknowledged if not actually fully explored. We - well, I can only speak for myself in this case, but I'm sure others like me wouldn't mind - hope that the remake allows her to finally step out of Aerith and Tifa's long shadow and be liked and remembered just as much as they are.
 

Firstone33

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Daniel
Well, there wasn't a Clessie club here until I made one, but there are a number of people out there who do like the ship. I've seen them on youtube and twitter and gamefaqs and such (though we face a lot of ridicule and criticism on gamefaqs for it). I'm hoping that grows with the release of the remake. She's just always been such an underrated and underloved character, always lost and forgotten in the shadow of Aerith and Tifa. Me and others like me just hope the remake gives her a chance to have at least a little bit of that connection with Cloud that she always wanted and provide some validation for the ship - because unlike most non-Clerith/Cloti ships, this one actually has the potential for that due to Jessie already having those feelings from the beginning in the original game along with Cloud being able to flirt with her a few times if the player wanted him to.

Making her an option in Part 1's affection system at the very least (if not giving the ship a little service and development outside of that) is, to me and those like me, simply a natural extension of what was already present in the original game. We just want to see more one-on-one interactions between the two and the ship's potential at least acknowledged if not actually fully explored. We - well, I can only speak for myself in this case, but I'm sure others like me wouldn't mind - hope that the remake allows her to finally step out of Aerith and Tifa's long shadow and be liked and remembered just as much as they are.
Not the only one.
 

Odysseus

Sweet Potato
AKA
Ody
I guess I, as mr. Jessie avatar, aught to come in. I'm not a Clessie shipper myself really (I'm a dirty Cloti at heart) but I wouldn't mind their relationship being explored a little. Jessie is the most forward out of the three now that the remake is expanding her characterization, and if that smirk from the game awards trailer is anything to go by, Cloud is at the very least flattered by her compliments. I don't really see them taking it very far though.

I would really like it if they shared a vulnerable moment together, not for teh ships, but because I'm hoping Jessie's struggle with her guilt over the damage her bomb caused is explored more. That's something I want to do in my own comic later on.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
... Really don't know why you're getting your hopes up over Jessie like this. You're setting yourself up, because while she will have more of a role due to the simple fact she's around longer and does way more, you're expecting way too much for a secondary character that's literally doomed.

And that type of melodramatic three-way love triangulation would be bad, horribly telegraphed writing for what's to come. It'd diminish her final moments if Jessie had such neat, perfectly charted character build up and conclusion so her appearance leaves her completely resolved. That's not how young people usually die.

I'm not even sure how an affection system would exist, let alone it's relevance. There's no Gold Saucer here. Frankly, Jessie's unrealized crush on Cloud needs no explanation or further addressing. She likes him. He's cool, attractive and sweet. Her affection towards Cloud is uniquely, the most uncomplicated and normal relationship expression in VII. There's no baggage attached to it. It's simply a young woman's refreshingly uncomplicated attraction towards someone. Simple and clean, one might say.

People build up some extreme expectation tunnel vision and when something fails to deliver it, they get pissed and disappointed. Appreciate what's there and be careful creating huge specific wish lists of critical wants and issues to be addressed. Or don't be upset when it shows the story is not even on the same wavelength where you thought it was.
 

Odysseus

Sweet Potato
AKA
Ody
The fact they're getting a bigger role at all was always good enough for me, I don't have any horses in any hypothetical love-quadrangle-based races here. I never thought there would even be a love system in part 1; like you said, what would it even be used for? You're one of the ones who took a deep dive into the leaks, aren't you @Makoeyes987 ? Guess I know some of Jairus' more... specific hopes aren't gonna happen. That's fine, I was never expecting that much to begin with. Fan fiction is where we get to have fun in the romance department. The only Jessie hope I have for the remake is like I said, I want them to explore her (and Avalanche in general) guilt over the civilian deaths she caused. That's something that's still weighing on Tifa and Barret by the time of Advent Children, so a microcosm of it here would be nice.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Oh I wasn't speaking in regards to any specific leak(s).

I just meant generally. I mean, Jessie gets a good bit of development for her character. But I wouldn't expect a sudden... Dating or affection system or even dive into romance. Leaks aside, it just wouldn't make sense.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Cloud's a jerk with a heart of gold. He does several sweet acts and at least three women would say otherwise.

He's not Wedge wearing his heart on his sleeve and while he certainly doesn't feel obligated to be nice to anybody, his cool, tough guy exterior is mostly an act. He's nowhere near as grouchy or cold like Barret, Vincent or Cid.
 
Barret isn't cold. I'd say Cid isn't cold either; he's quite an impulsive hothead, and rudeness is his love language.
I guess Cloud does some sweet things, like not leaving Jessie to die trapped in an exploding reactor, or buying a flower off a girl who forces it on him and then handing it to Tifa when she asks who it's for.... Cloud definitely does some heroic things. But sweet things?
Is it an act, or a false persona? An act is normally something people consciously put on.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Barret's not the one I was calling cold. Cid and Vincent were the ones I meant as being cold, especially Cid when he's in a bad mood.

And Cloud is a sweet person, even when he's not fully himself, because moments present themselves where he feels compelled to act out the traits of his true personality. Even when he's in a bad mood or in his mercenary attitude, he doesn't even go all the way in being a complete jerk. When enough prodding happens to get close, he almost never digs in on his jerkishness. Barret was the one he was most disagreeable with. But anyone else, he eventually opens up.

Squall at the beginning of VIII is actually someone who would be far more applicable in not being called sweet at all. Squall is cold as steel and quite mean until he finally opens up and embraces attaching himself to people. And that cold, mean externalization was an act in his case. Cloud only does it because he's mentally unaware of his own false reality.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
... Really don't know why you're getting your hopes up over Jessie like this. You're setting yourself up, because while she will have more of a role due to the simple fact she's around longer and does way more, you're expecting way too much for a secondary character that's literally doomed.

And that type of melodramatic three-way love triangulation would be bad, horribly telegraphed writing for what's to come. It'd diminish her final moments if Jessie had such neat, perfectly charted character build up and conclusion so her appearance leaves her completely resolved. That's not how young people usually die.

I'm not even sure how an affection system would exist, let alone it's relevance. There's no Gold Saucer here. Frankly, Jessie's unrealized crush on Cloud needs no explanation or further addressing. She likes him. He's cool, attractive and sweet. Her affection towards Cloud is uniquely, the most uncomplicated and normal relationship expression in VII. There's no baggage attached to it. It's simply a young woman's refreshingly uncomplicated attraction towards someone. Simple and clean, one might say.

People build up some extreme expectation tunnel vision and when something fails to deliver it, they get pissed and disappointed. Appreciate what's there and be careful creating huge specific wish lists of critical wants and issues to be addressed. Or don't be upset when it shows the story is not even on the same wavelength where you thought it was.
Thing is, though, the Gold Saucer isn't needed for an affection system if it's done on a per-game basis and a similar date-type event exists within Part 1. Why people assume the existence of an affection system must be geared specifically for the Gold Saucer alone is beyond me when the story's multi-game structure allows for an independent affection system for each game which could still also be carried over from game to game. And given that Nomura's confirmed that there are lots of choices and choices-dependent events and scenes in the game, that allows the possibility for an affection system to exist in Part 1.

And leaving her feelings unaddressed is not a good way to treat her character, especially after they were just forgotten in the OG because "OMG must blast A/T everywhere! J must never have her own chance to have what they have with C!"

Aerith was/is doomed as well, so that argument fails. Aerith only lasted about half the game in the OG, but it didn't stop her from being a potential love interest. And since Jessie will be around for at least half of Part 1, there's no reason it should stop her, either. Death is not the excuse you or others think it is. And being an NPC doesn't make a difference, either - PC's and NPC's have been involved to varying degrees before in FF games (Snow and Serah spring instantly to mind).

The very nature of Jessie's feelings for him is part of why they should be addressed and why Cloud may feel less threatened and uncomfortable with them than with anything from A & T at this point, both of which come with baggage. You don't know allowing her feelings to get even a small bit of return would be handled badly because you haven't seen how it would be done. You're just assuming it would be bad and that any writing would have to be bad without allowing for the possibility of things you haven't thought of yet. You say it would be telegraphed but you don't say how. But shaking up the old LTD by letting J have a small part in it leaves room for surprises and the unexpected and a way to catch veterans off guard and keep things fresh and unpredictable.

But I guess some people can't handle the idea of anything ever impinging on the holy duo of A & T. But a sure way to get people to resent those two is to not allow their spotlight to be shared and treat J as being inferior to them and unworthy of being allowed to have some of what they have, which includes attention from Cloud.

And Cloud isn't necessarily the jerk people say he is - they say that because of how he acts in the first mission and his argument with Barret in the basement, but outside of that, you could have him be completely nice to everyone if you wanted to, even on the way back to the slums from that first mission - meeting Aerith doesn't somehow flip a switch in him because he had the opportunity and option to treat his allies well prior to that and could have if you chose to have him do it. So he's always had that ability, which means he's not necessarily the jerk people think he was. Aloof, maybe, and cool, but that's not the same thing.

And if the leaked demo is anything to go on, Cloud does seem to have at least a little attraction for Jessie in the remake (and I'm not the only one who's noticed this, either).

He treats her very differently than he does the guys - he makes eye contact with her, talks with her, shows concern for her, and does nothing to turn aside her interest in him. He also not only tries to answer her question about him and Tifa, he does it nicely rather than blowing her off or telling her he isn't interested. There's also that bashful smile he tries not to make, but she got him to do it. SE gave Cloud's first smile of the game to Jessie. Not Aerith and not Tifa. Jessie. I think there's some significance to that.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
You're ignoring the fundamental difference of Jessie being a tertiary character in the original game. She was never going to hold as much importance as Aerith or Tifa in the overall narrative. Aerith and Tifa are main characters, so of course they'd be "everywhere."

The reason why it'd be clumsy and shallow storytelling to include Jessie as a legitimate love interest for Cloud is because of three reasons. The first one being, is that it dilutes and unnecessarily distracts the overall narrative. FFVII, despite it's notorious LT debate, is actually not a love story. Cloud having two potential love interests, one that gets taken from him by his enemy, is enough dramatic, emotional love-story pathos for the game proper. Adding a third just because it's possible literally serves no purpose other than to over-dramatize a factor that was not the crux of the story to begin with. Secondly, it horribly telegraphs the important twist that is to come regarding Aerith.

Cloud having a woman who confesses to seriously liking him die in Part 1 would make Aerith thematically "next on the list." It'd now become a strange, morbid pattern where those who fall for Cloud seemingly end up dead in this Remake. Leaving Tifa as apparently, the survivor of a new bizarre reality game. This isn't a harem anime saga. Cloud doesn't need to be torn between three women who feel for him and want him romantically. It lessens the impact, and cheapens the overall message.

And the third reason is simply, why? It would add essentially nothing meaningful to Jessie's actual story. Considering Jessie is literally living on borrowed time from the perspective of the viewer/player, why would the writers bog down chances to explore Jessie's character independently, with melodramatic, empty attempts at instigating or pursuing a relationship with Cloud? Especially when Jessie would be aware of the fact that Cloud is Tifa's childhood friend? That's time being wasted on an empty, dead-end romance, that could be used to flesh out Jessie's character and make her a secondary character, not a tertiary one. If they padded chances of showcasing Jessie's personality with awkward attempts of her trying to get in Cloud's pants, it'd be worst than just having her remain in the same role as before. They would have squandered chances to give Jessie personality and a character just to create a dead-end, useless and contrived love plot that gives zero pay-off.

Snow and Serah are again main characters in their respective series. So comparing them to Jessie is not applicable either. Cloud doesn't feel "threatened" by anyone's feelings; he's ambivalent at best, or oblivious at worst in the OG. Cloud had other things on his mind. And of course Cloud would react different to the only woman in the group. He's not above appreciating playful flirting. But that's all it is. Playful flirtation. Not every flirt has to be bogged down by the pre-text of a serious relationship or intend to act on said feelings.

... And if you're resentful over the fact Jessie is not part of the LTD, then I can't even imagine the perspective that would create such a feeling. I would think you'd be glad to not have a favorite character bogged down by an undying debate over the imaginary feelings said character may or may not have had reciprocated, that are functionally irrelevant by the end of the game. That's such an unbelievably strange burden to wish to on a character.
 
My original impression of the Jessie character in the OG was that she was a feint. A minor NPC potential love interest is killed off early in the game; the player thinks, "OK, no way will they pull that one again," and that's just one more way in which Aerith's death (playable character, major love interest) completely blindsides you, unless you already knew it was coming.

What's really surprising is that all these women are fawning over Cloud and no one is interested in Biggs. In real life that just wouldn't happen.
 
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