Hopes for the remake (story/content)

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
You're ignoring the fundamental difference of Jessie being a tertiary character in the original game. She was never going to hold as much importance as Aerith or Tifa in the overall narrative. Aerith and Tifa are main characters, so of course they'd be "everywhere."
This isn't the original game, though. Things change.

The reason why it'd be clumsy and shallow storytelling to include Jessie as a legitimate love interest for Cloud is because of three reasons. The first one being, is that it dilutes and unnecessarily distracts the overall narrative. FFVII, despite it's notorious LT debate, is actually not a love story. Cloud having two potential love interests, one that gets taken from him by his enemy, is enough dramatic, emotional love-story pathos for the game proper. Adding a third just because it's possible literally serves no purpose other than to over-dramatize a factor that was not the crux of the story to begin with. Secondly, it horribly telegraphs the important twist that is to come regarding Aerith.
A character losing two love interests has been done before and done well - Worf of Star Trek lost both Kehylar and Jadzia, both of whom were killed.

Cloud having a woman who confesses to seriously liking him die in Part 1 would make Aerith thematically "next on the list." It'd now become a strange, morbid pattern where those who fall for Cloud seemingly end up dead in this Remake. Leaving Tifa as apparently, the survivor of a new bizarre reality game. This isn't a harem anime saga. Cloud doesn't need to be torn between three women who feel for him and want him romantically. It lessens the impact, and cheapens the overall message.
Except that in Part 1, as early as in the overall FFVII story, Aerith and Tifa are just friends at this point and there is a built-in limit on how far that can go in Part 1 because they will be around for later parts. Jessie won't be, which actually means she has no such limit on her development with Cloud. Not that I expect much to actually happen. I'd just like acknowledgement of the possibility of what might have been, what could have been. Not even necessarily in words, but even if it's just shown in some way, that would be enough.

And the third reason is simply, why? It would add essentially nothing meaningful to Jessie's actual story. Considering Jessie is literally living on borrowed time from the perspective of the viewer/player, why would the writers bog down chances to explore Jessie's character independently, with melodramatic, empty attempts at instigating or pursuing a relationship with Cloud? Especially when Jessie would be aware of the fact that Cloud is Tifa's childhood friend? That's time being wasted on an empty, dead-end romance, that could be used to flesh out Jessie's character and make her a secondary character, not a tertiary one. If they padded chances of showcasing Jessie's personality with awkward attempts of her trying to get in Cloud's pants, it'd be worst than just having her remain in the same role as before. They would have squandered chances to give Jessie personality and a character just to create a dead-end, useless and contrived love plot that gives zero pay-off.
You're assuming she can't be developed and allowed to have a little return on her interest at the same time. Both can happen simultaneously. And as Cloud never got to answer her question in the reactor - given the presence of choices in the game, it might even be up to us to choose how he answers it later, just as we got do with Aerith in the original. Which could mean we could have the option to have him tell Jessie that Tifa's just a friend.

So since Aerith dies, is that considered dead-end as well? Why bother having her have feelings for Cloud if she's going to die anyway? That's your argument about Jessie, and it can be applied just as easily to Aerith. Which makes the argument invalid.

Snow and Serah are again main characters in their respective series. So comparing them to Jessie is not applicable either. Cloud doesn't feel "threatened" by anyone's feelings; he's ambivalent at best, or oblivious at worst in the OG. Cloud had other things on his mind. And of course Cloud would react different to the only woman in the group. He's not above appreciating playful flirting. But that's all it is. Playful flirtation. Not every flirt has to be bogged down by the pre-text of a serious relationship or intend to act on said feelings.
Uncomfortable with Aerith and Tifa's feelings would be a better word. But the nature of Jessie's being so different would make them more approachable for him. And you don't usually flirt with someone you're not interested in. When such interaction is present in a story, it creates the expectation that sooner or later, those feelings will be addressed. I don't want her feelings reduced to empty flirting just for the sake of avoiding conflict with Aerith and Tifa. That cheapens her and her feelings. And Serah's still an NPC, like Jessie, and that was the point of the example. She's more absent than present in the game but they're still involved.

... And if you're resentful over the fact Jessie is not part of the LTD, then I can't even imagine the perspective that would create such a feeling. I would think you'd be glad to not have a favorite character bogged down by an undying debate over the imaginary feelings said character may or may not have had reciprocated, that are functionally irrelevant by the end of the game. That's such an unbelievably strange burden to wish to on a character.
And I don't understand why you'd feel resentful and threatened over the possibility of her feelings getting even a small amount of return. I never said it had to be much. And any feelings for her would not become irrelevant just because she dies - just as what he may have felt for Aerith didn't become irrelevant after her death. They're still a part of him, just as anything he might feel for Jessie would still be. You don't forget about someone you felt for just because you lose them. Believe me, I know this firsthand.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Actually Cloud meeting Aerith does "flip a switch" as it's called out/highlighted in the external/supporting materials 💦
Then how come he still had the ability to be nice to his allies before that? If he couldn't before he met her, we would never have been given the option to be nice to the others in the first place.

And EM, blame Mako for being unable to resist arguing about it. He didn't have to respond and start this off again.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It's based on the original game, and telling the original game's story. While different, they're not fundamentally two separate stories. Likewise, comparing FFVII's use of romantic melodrama with a serial, sci-fi television show isn't applicable at all. Star Trek and FFVII are two entirely different forms of media telling vastly different types of stories.

Jessie does have a limit. A limited lifespan and time. How much do you really think Jessie is going to be apart of? Even in an expanded capacity, there's still not a lot of time given a lot of the plot does not include her, and to waste her screentime on a fruitless romance that serves nothing for her own innate character sounds like extremely poor writing. What return could she possibly get? Cloud's not going to date her. His eyes are on Aerith. And Tifa. Why would there be a third romance element especially now when they're trying to build up more of Aerith here?

So since Aerith dies, is that considered dead-end as well? Why bother having her have feelings for Cloud if she's going to die anyway? That's your argument about Jessie, and it can be applied just as easily to Aerith. Which makes the argument invalid.
Again. Aerith is a main character. That's her lane. That's "the bother." It's baked into her character and the plot. I don't understand how you keep trying to equate Jessie as somehow the same level of character as the heroines of the game. That whole relationship served a fundamental narrative purpose. It frames the relationship of Cloud and Aerith, and illustrates their respective growth, along with hinting towards the revelation of who Cloud is.

And people flirt just for fun all the time. Not every flirtatious act is a proposition to begin a relationship. That's just simply not true. Jessie's feelings aren't being cheapened. She's just having fun. Not sure how that's a bad thing.

And I'm not threatened or resentful. I just see it as pointless. Jessie doesn't "need" her feeling reciprocated. On a list of things "Jessie needs," that's like.. Not even on there. I'd rather see her do stuff and be fleshed out. Not meaninglessly forced into a contrived romantic situation that goes no where, and leads to nowhere. You're vastly inflating the importance of Jessie's relationship to Cloud and vice versa here.
 
I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to be nice beforehand but that Square Enix highlights it as something special ☺

"Aerith's warm cheer begins to melt Cloud's frosty exterior"

https://images.app.goo.gl/u8ZVNXh7oZvu2UkY6

(from ff3Oth exhibit stuffs)

Also the line "it is the heroine Aerith that opens Cloud's eyes and brings him closer to understanding the mystery that is his past" as well as the rooftop scene where Cloud laughs with Aerith being specifically called out by them as the time Cloud laughs.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
It's based on the original game, and telling the original game's story. While different, they're not fundamentally two separate stories. Likewise, comparing FFVII's use of romantic melodrama with a serial, sci-fi television show isn't applicable at all. Star Trek and FFVII are two entirely different forms of media telling vastly different types of stories.
The point was that the concept of a character losing two love interests has been done before and done well.

Jessie does have a limit. A limited lifespan and time. How much do you really think Jessie is going to be apart of? Even in an expanded capacity, there's still not a lot of time given a lot of the plot does not include her, and to waste her screentime on a fruitless romance that serves nothing for her own innate character sounds like extremely poor writing. What return could she possibly get? Cloud's not going to date her. His eyes are on Aerith. And Tifa. Why would there be a third romance element especially now when they're trying to build up more of Aerith here?
So does Aerith, her lifespan and time are also limited. Yet she gets a pass while Jessie doesn't. That's called a double standard. And her screentime can be devoted to both developments simultaneously. You don't know that her getting a bit of return on her interest wouldn't serve her, it's what she's hoping for. Cloud doesn't have interest in Tifa or Aerith yet, he only sees Tifa as a friend at this point and only barely knows Aerith. So it 's a stretch to say he has his eyes on them this early.

Again. Aerith is a main character. That's her lane. That's "the bother." It's baked into her character and the plot. I don't understand how you keep trying to equate Jessie as somehow the same level of character as the heroines of the game. That whole relationship served a fundamental narrative purpose. It frames the relationship of Cloud and Aerith, and illustrates their respective growth, along with hinting towards the revelation of who Cloud is.
Oh, so Jessie can be cast aside just because she isn't "main" or a PC? That sounds a bit discriminatory to me. And why shouldn't SE give Jessie the chance to get a bit closer to the level of Aerith and Tifa when they have the opportunity to do so?

And people flirt just for fun all the time. Not every flirtatious act is a proposition to begin a relationship. That's just simply not true. Jessie's feelings aren't being cheapened. She's just having fun. Not sure how that's a bad thing.
No, they are being cheapened because her interest is being reduced to mindless, empty flirting purely as an excuse to avoid giving any depth to those feelings and avoid conflict with Aerith and Tifa, because - gasp - we can't possibly allow anything to impinge on the holy duo of A & T.

And I'm not threatened or resentful. I just see it as pointless. Jessie doesn't "need" her feeling reciprocated. On a list of things "Jessie needs," that's like.. Not even on there. I'd rather see her do stuff and be fleshed out. Not meaninglessly forced into a contrived romantic situation that goes no where, and leads to nowhere. You're vastly inflating the importance of Jessie's relationship to Cloud and vice versa here.
Why do you think she can't be flesh out and have her feelings reciprocated even a little at the same time? It's not mutually exclusive. And you don't know that it wouldn't go nowhere or lead nowhere. Aerith died but it still impacted Cloud. Jessie could be the same way. You just don't seem to want to allow for what you haven't thought of yet. And there's nothing that says that the remake can't change the importance of Cloud and Jessie to each other. Why would they have shown her and promoted her nearly as much as Aerith and Tifa if she wasn't going to have some kind of connection with him more than she did in the OG?

Maiden, that was in reference to the original game. The remake has already changed things by giving his first smile to Jessie, not Aerith. And EM, are you saying I can never talk about this? I was asked about it by Lic and merely answered her question. Then Mako came in and started railing against it. That's what started this off.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
...How do you even discriminate against a character of a game?

That's like being mad Zack dies and doesn't get a chance for a rematch with Sephiroth because he could beat him.

Aerith gets a "pass" because she's by design, a main character and it's the way the story's written. I don't even know what you're talking about or saying. No, not every character, can be a main character. Some characters are main and some are secondary. That's controversial to you?

Why do you think she can't be flesh out and have her feelings reciprocated even a little at the same time? It's not mutually exclusive. And you don't know that it wouldn't go nowhere or lead nowhere. Aerith died but it still impacted Cloud. Jessie could be the same way. You just don't seem to want to allow for what you haven't thought of yet. And there's nothing that says that the remake can't change the importance of Cloud and Jessie to each other. Why would they have shown her and promoted her nearly as much as Aerith and Tifa if she wasn't going to have some kind of connection with him more than she did in the OG?
...What you're asking for doesn't align with VII's story at all. That's such an out-there expectation you might as well go to AO3 because you're not finding that in the Remake, and if that's what you're expectation is, you're setting yourself up for some true despair. There's shipping-bait, and then there's unreasonable expectations. You're crossing over into the latter.

They promoted her cause she's a character. In the story.
 

Erotic Materia

I put on my robe and wizard hat
And EM, are you saying I can never talk about this?
I'm only going to respond to this once, for the reasons I'm about to lay out.

And EM, blame Mako for being unable to resist arguing about it.
I'm saying you're being wildy hypocritical with this statement. How many threads have been derailed by your personal crusade for Jessie? You can't not argue about it.

By and large, I've stayed out of these debates with you because A- I'm admittedly not as well-versed in all of the compilation material, B- I'm not terribly great about putting my thoughts into words, and (this being bigger than any of the previous 2) C- You have made it crystal clear by this point that you aren't having an honest debate in good faith to settle an inconsistency between your views and others', you're doing it because they're wrong, and this must not stand.

You take a solid, calm, rational argument with well-defined evidence to back it up as a personal attack. But people aren't attacking you. They're pointing out flaws in a claim you're making. Rather than consider these points and counter them, you seem to eventually resort to lashing out at the people making the arguments. You've said you feel ganged up on. That's not what anyone is trying to accomplish, and feeling that way is a problem on your part, not theirs.

But regardless, without fail, the overall pattern goes as follows:
1 - You make a claim about Jessie, that is generally considered contrary to established lore. (I'm not going to argue this point, so don't bother quoting it back to me)
2 - Someone else points out why they think the claim you've put forward is wrong.
3 - You fire back why you think they're wrong.
4 - (Go to step 2)
5 - Repeat until everyone is pissed off/realizes it's pointless to continue, or a mod steps in.

I've been down that road, and I'm not doing it again. I really hope you can one day develop the ability to take in an idea that is contrary to your own views, and process it as such without feeling to need to destroy it.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
...How do you even discriminate against a character of a game?

That's like being mad Zack dies and doesn't get a chance for a rematch with Sephiroth because he could beat him.

Aerith gets a "pass" because she's by design, a main character and it's the way the story's written. I don't even know what you're talking about or saying. No, not every character, can be a main character. Some characters are main and some are secondary. That's controversial to you?
You discriminate by not allowing her the possibility of being treated the same as her PC counterparts just because she isn't a PC. I know some characters are main and some secondary, but that doesn't mean that in some instances, secondary characters can't get some of the same level and treatment as mains do or be remembered and liked just as much.

...What you're asking for doesn't align with VII's story at all. That's such an out-there expectation you might as well go to AO3 because you're not finding that in the Remake, and if that's what you're expectation is, you're setting yourself up for some true despair. There's shipping-bait, and then there's unreasonable expectations. You're crossing over into the latter.
Making them have a slightly stronger connection than before doesn't have to negatively affect VII's story. I wasn't talking about anything full-on, which you seem to think I was asking for. Just something, even something small, to show that the possibility exists and could have happened had things been different.

They promoted her cause she's a character. In the story.
Wrong. If it was just because she was a character, then they could have just as easily replaced her with Biggs or Reno for those spots. But they didn't . They specifically chose her for those spots and not someone else. And several of those spots feature her and Cloud together, and in closeups no less. Shots they could have done differently but deliberately chose to zoom in on them.

I'm saying you're being wildy hypocritical with this statement. How many threads have been derailed by your personal crusade for Jessie? You can't not argue about it.
If he hadn't argued first, I wouldn't have said anything.

By and large, I've stayed out of these debates with you because A- I'm admittedly not as well-versed in all of the compilation material, B- I'm not terribly great about putting my thoughts into words, and (this being bigger than any of the previous 2) C- You have made it crystal clear by this point that you aren't having an honest debate in good faith to settle an inconsistency between your views and others', you're doing it because they're wrong, and this must not stand.
No, I do this because people won't allow room for the possibility that I might not be wrong and they insist on arguing about it rather than leave me be.

You take a solid, calm, rational argument with well-defined evidence to back it up as a personal attack. But people aren't attacking you. They're pointing out flaws in a claim you're making. Rather than consider these points and counter them, you seem to eventually resort to lashing out at the people making the arguments. You've said you feel ganged up on. That's not what anyone is trying to accomplish, and feeling that way is a problem on your part, not theirs.
No, I'm simply responding to what's being said. If you disagreed with them, would you still say their arguments were calm and rational? They're making assumptions about what they think I'm saying - for instance, they assume that I'm saying the only development Jessie should get is about her relationship with Cloud, when that's not what I've been saying at all. They think she can't have both character development of her own and at least a small return on her feelings at the same time, but it's quite possible.

Being ganged up may not be what they're trying to do, but that's the effect multiple people arguing with me has, and they should know that by now.

But regardless, without fail, the overall pattern goes as follows:
1 - You make a claim about Jessie, that is generally considered contrary to established lore. (I'm not going to argue this point, so don't bother quoting it back to me)
2 - Someone else points out why they think the claim you've put forward is wrong.
3 - You fire back why you think they're wrong.
4 - (Go to step 2)
5 - Repeat until everyone is pissed off/realizes it's pointless to continue, or a mod steps in.
So I can't ever reply to someone arguing with what I've said, then?

I've been down that road, and I'm not doing it again. I really hope you can one day develop the ability to take in an idea that is contrary to your own views, and process it as such without feeling to need to destroy it.
Just as soon as you and the others do the same for me and my ideas and seriously allow for the possibility that I may be right at least in part.

It also seems a bit hypocritical of people to want expansion and growth for Jessie's character in every area except that one. But that's a part of her character as well and should receive just as much growth and attention in the remake as every other part of her character and not be reduced to mindless empty flirting just as an excuse to avoid complications with Aerith and Tifa.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
There needs to be a playable scenario, no scratch that, game, for every single tertiary, secondary and main character in the Compilation of FFVII.

That's the only fair, non-discriminatory solution then. Each character will get unique, what-if, scenarios that allow everyone to see what would happen to them if they were the center.

Making them have a slightly stronger connection than before doesn't have to negatively affect VII's story. I wasn't talking about anything full-on....
A stronger connection how? They already have a connection of ally-comrade. They interact. They talk. What more are you wanting? I already said how it'd negatively impact it. What you're asking for is frankly, a contrived soap opera and dating-sim. It's not enough for Cloud to have two women pining for him. We need a new challenger this go-round. So it can be a love-square. That's so unexpected and unique. That's totally not a cheap, shallow way of creating melodrama and flimsy character growth for a woman character. Nope, not at aaaalllll.


Wrong. If it was just because she was a character, then they could have just as easily replaced her with Biggs or Reno for those spots. But they didn't . They specifically chose her for those spots and not someone else. And several of those spots feature her and Cloud together, and in closeups no less. Shots they could have done differently but deliberately chose to zoom in on them.
... But Biggs and Reno already have spots and...

What are you talking about?!

They chose her cause she's part of the AVALANCHE trio. That's significant. What are you even implying??

I don't know what to tell you. It's not all coded. If you really wanna dream the impossible dream, fine. Have at it. Knock yourself out.

But don't be pissed, and complain when you see the reality of the Remake and it doesn't align with your preferred outcome. Because it won't. And the only person who set you up to think it will, is you. So whatever you say. Believe it.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
My two cents:

1. I’m about as thirsty for Biggs as Licoriceallsorts

2. My hopes for the Remake (story/content) are generally that Sephiroth doesn’t appear much more than he already has in the trailers. Many new gamers will feel cheated if the game doesn’t let them beat the villain. (I had a friend who never finished IX because of the scripted losses against Beatrix. Had a friend, in past tense ;) ) It’s going to be strange for new players after 40-80 hours of fighting Shinra when there’s no final confrontation with the President. It’ll be even worse when the final battle (let’s be real, against Sephiroth) culminates in a fake-out and a “He’s still at large! Please buy Part 2 of ?? Parts.” It’s delicate. The more Sephiroth is present in Midgar, the more of a slap in the face that’s going to be.

...oh you thought I was gonna weigh in on all that Jessie stuff? Not interested. (Just re-read Mako’s posts :) )
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
There needs to be a playable scenario, no scratch that, game, for every single tertiary, secondary and main character in the Compilation of FFVII.

That's the only fair, non-discriminatory solution then. Each character will get unique, what-if, scenarios that allow everyone to see what would happen to them if they were the center.
That's not what I'm saying, and you know it. Mocking me just diminishes your credibility.

A stronger connection how? They already have a connection of ally-comrade. They interact. They talk. What more are you wanting? I already said how it'd negatively impact it. What you're asking for is frankly, a contrived soap opera. It's not enough for Cloud to have two women pining for him. We need a new challenger this go-round. So it can be a love-square. That's so unexpected and unique. That's totally not a cheap, shallow way of creating melodrama and flimsy character growth for a woman character. Nope, not at aaaalllll.
You only think it would negatively impact it. You're assuming. Jessie's feelings are already there. And again, you didn't address what I said. She can grow and be expanded as a character while still getting a small return on her interest at the same time. You don't seem to get that. And you also don't seem to see that Cloud isn't going to be very far with Aerith and Tifa by the end of Part 1 - their arcs have to span multiple games, so they can't be anything but friends in Part 1. What I mean by stronger connection is a bit of mutual attraction to give her a small return on her interest and not have her feelings be totally unrequited.

... But Biggs and Reno already have spots and...
What are you talking about?!

They chose her cause she's part of the AVALANCHE trio. That's significant. What are you even implying??
If that's the case, why did they choose to feature her the most and not Biggs or Wedge? They made a deliberate choice on that part, and in showing her together with Cloud. They didn't have to create the scenes in such a way as to have them in close proximity to each other or in situations that would feed her feelings. But they deliberately chose to do so.

I don't know what to tell you. It's not all coded. If you really wanna dream the impossible dream, fine. Have at it. Knock yourself out.

But don't be pissed, and complain when you see the reality of the Remake and it doesn't align with your preferred outcome. Because it won't. And the only person who set you up to think it will, is you. So whatever you say. Believe it.
You don't know that it won't, Mako, at least in part. I'm not looking for them to have this steamy thing together, despite what you may think. Just some small moment or moments to acknowledge that it could have been possible had things happened differently.
 

Ryvius

Seek Discomfort
@Jairus, I’m curious as to what exactly you mean by return on her interest? You really ship this hard so I think most of us feel that you are insisting to have Cloud fall for her and then lose her. Is flirtation not enough? Perhaps it could work to explore parts of her character through her feelings for Cloud, but for Cloud, that has always been the role Aerith played for disc one - she’s connected to his fake persona via the backstory and she’s the one who really begins to melt his icy heart. Later, Tifa, his rock in reality, is the one who completes what Aerith couldn’t have finished. I’m not sure how Jessie could really fit in here, aside from allowing Cloud to loosen up a bit and sharing some optional light flirtation/friendship without the baggage of his past or of dating. I really like Jessie, and I would honestly rather her character be developed without the catalyst of a ship that may have a negative effect on the entire narrative of the whole remake, personally. I also don’t want her to be lovesick. There are enough lovesick female characters out there.
 
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Teioh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Teiocho
Perhaps a thread could be started solely for the discussion of Jessie (Biggs and Wedge) and whatever anyone wants to debate about them there? And any further discussion could be diverted there instead of going through pages and pages of back and forth with very little progress? This has happened far too many times in far too many different threads now and to be honest I'm starting to feel about certain characters exactly how I feel about the LTD.
 
My two cents:

1. I’m about as thirsty for Biggs as Licoriceallsorts
I know, right?

My home for the Remake is that we see more of Tseng and Aerith's backstory and relationship. I'd also like to see Tseng interacting with Rufus but I'm not holding my breath.
Edit: but only if Rufus is nice to him. If he's gonna treat him like he treats Heidegger then I don't want to see it.
 
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