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Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

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We know one thing for sure about Rufus:
1. He deliberately blew up the Avalanche helicopter as he came in to land on the Shinra building
We know one probable thing about Rufus:
1. He coordinated the attack on the Shinra building with Avalanche HQ, and had almost certainly come to either kill or depose his father himself
This suggests to me that he always intended to turn around and eliminate Avalanche the moment they had served their purpose.

However, he blew up their helicopter before he knew for sure that his father was dead and that his coup had succeeded, which seems a bit hasty to me.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Barret mentions a few other people we never meet during his garden scene, maybe Biggs will reappear with them.
Maybe so, but I kind of expect that they're dead. At the least, their names appear on the dartboard score list, so they presumably were normally in Sector 7.

We aren't given names for most of the folks who died fighting at the pillar, though, so of course they could be fine ... but if they were in the vicinity, it seems rather unlikely they wouldn't have joined the fight. And Barret seemed to be of the understanding that they were in the area since he tries to offer himself encouragement they could be alright.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Maybe so, but I kind of expect that they're dead. At the least, their names appear on the dartboard score list, so they presumably were normally in Sector 7.

We aren't given names for most of the folks who died fighting at the pillar, though, so of course they could be fine ... but if they were in the vicinity, it seems rather unlikely they wouldn't have joined the fight. And Barret seemed to be of the understanding that they were in the area since he tries to offer himself encouragement they could be alright.
I dunno, it feels extra arbitrary to establish these people only after they died. Why, to make platefall more tragic? Seems kind of unnecessary to me.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
We know one probable thing about Rufus:
1. He coordinated the attack on the Shinra building with Avalanche HQ, and had almost certainly come to either kill or depose his father himself
This suggests to me that he always intended to turn around and eliminate Avalanche the moment they had served their purpose.

I suspect you're right, in which case...arrgh. On the one hand, it gives him back some much needed edge, on the other, it's another achievement taken away from the leads.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I think I'm just diametrically opposed to your viewpoint, Clement. I think it's pretty thematically fitting that the leads end up getting strung along in other people's plans and don't always accomplish things themselves.
 
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Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I don't have a pathological objection to people being manipulated, in general. (My favourite game series is Legacy of Kain) This part of the game is all about being Sephiroth's puppet, making the leads' Rufus' puppet as well just takes things too far for me. I need the leads to have some agency of their own.

I don't think it serves Rufus' character either to have him so much in control of things, struggles are more interesting than dominance.

We'll see what happens in part 2, but I expect things are more likely to go your way.
[/spoiler
 
I don't see anything being taken away from the leads. They didn't
go into the Shinra building to overthrow President Shinra, as Cloud and Tifa keep reminding Barret. Their mission is to get Aerith and get out. They have no idea they've accidentally stumbled into the middle of a much bigger operation being carried out by Avalanche HQ. Barret's cell is a rogue cell; nobody in Avalanche HQ talks to Barret or Barret's people. Meawhile Rufus was arriving by helicopter to kill or overthrow his dad, only to find the deed done for him (and apparently by Sephiroth, which really makes no sense since Sephiroth is dead. Isn't he?).

Cloud & Co complete their mission, Cloud briefly detours to cross swords with Rufus because what's FFVII without at least one sexy gay boss battle replete with suggestive banter? Cloud defeats Rufus, is rescued by Tifa, they all scarper, escape the Shinra Building and the coup taking place therein (does the penny ever dropthat a coup was in train while they were rescuing Aerith?) and then hightail it out of Midgar, pausing only long enough to take down some really ridiculous bosses and then Sephiroth.

Nothing that the party achieves in part 1 owes anything to Rufus, and nothing Rufus achieves in Part 1 owes anything to the party. The fact that their paths all cross in the Presidential suite on that fateful night is just a big coinkidink.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'm not sure I see where they're being puppeted by Rufus here, though? They just happened to be in the same place and with similar ideas at the same time.

EDIT: Somehow beaten to the punch by Lic despite that post's length. XD I got distracted while typing this, okay?
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
You're right, Lic, but I wanted to correct one thing. There is one person in Avalanche HQ who does talk to Barret's cell, and that's Jessie's contact. We don't know who it is yet, but she mentions it in the Reactor 1 mission.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Folks, I'm no mod, but this thread is outside the Remake Spoilers section, so you might want to tag things.

The gang's raid only gets anywhere with a massive amount of unsolicited help from HQ, though. If he's co-ordinating AVALANCHE operations in Shinra HQ, then they're on his strings.
 
Well, in the OG they only got as far as they got with the help of Mayor Domino.
It wasn't a big stretch for the Remake to make the disaffected Domino Avalanche's man inside. In fact, it made sense. He hates Shinra so much, why wouldn't he reach out to make common cause with Shinra's enemies? So, very little change there. If Rufus is still controlling Avalanche, then technically Domino is under Rufus's command. However, we have no reason to suppose that Domino knows the truth about who controls Avalanche.

In the OG, they would never have been able to bust out of Hojo's lab prison without the help of Sephiroth.
IIRC, in the Remake they do much more for themselves, with some help from Domino.

All in all, the gang needed just as much help in the OG as they do in the Remake.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
They get one keycard from Domino in the OG. In the Remake they get all of them from him or through his arrangements, (including directions to the bathroom on the Exec's floor) as well as him quashing tripped alarms and security.

In the OG, Sephiroth opens one door, and they fight their way out themselves, after having found their way in themselves. In Remake, HQ gets them in (with Domino making fun of how ineffective they are), Hojo intentionally letting them out of his ant farm, AND help from the Whispers, and AVALANCHE HQ giving them their escape route. If Rufus is indeed co-ordinating AVALANCHE's ops in Shinra HQ, then they had his help through AVALANCHE HQ.
 
Okay then, if you are determined to undermine the party's achievements.

IMHO, Remake Domino solved a number of major plot-holes in the Shinra building mission, such as why the hell it took so long for anyone to realise they were there. It is Domino's nature to mock others and inflate himself; for the party, his mockery is water off a duck's back because they can see he has issues. In the OG, the party only managed to get a key card because someone mistook them for a janitor, which seems even more random than getting help from Domino. In both games, the fact that they got all the way to Hojo's labs was due more to luck than to their own skill and judgement.

In the OG, Cloud and Co didn't "fight their way" out of the cells, aside from the random enemies they encountered, and if you're lucky you can get all the way to President's desk without fighting more than one of those. Or you could simply run away from the battle. Did Hojo intentionally let them out of the Drum, or did they figure out the exit for themselves? I could have done without the Drum tbh, but it hardly portrays the party as lacking in either courage or skill (or patience).

Rufus certainly wasn't helping Cloud & Co deliberately! And if Avalanche hadn't told them to make their escape from the roof, they'd have fled without the Cloud/Rufus boss fight. And Avalanche HQ's "help" amounted to nothing anyway, since Rufus shot the chopper down.

When I played through these chapters, the thought "Oh dear, if only Cloud & Co were allowed to do something for themselves," never crossed my mind, though it obviously did yours. [/quote]
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I am not 'determined' to do anything. Everything I'm saying is right there in the game, I'm not making shit up here. These are my honest opinions. What do you think I'm doing, playing to the crowd?

I did not undermine the party's achievements, the game did. You disagree? Okay.

It's explicit, Red says something along the lines of 'that elevator only moves if Hojo wants it to.'

OG, the crew can avoid guards by taking the slow way up, and also avoid security on floor 60. They do things to get their keycards (sometimes stupid things, yes, but they still have to do things rather than just be handed them.)

Domino was a bigger plothole in the remake for me. Giving them a keycard when they get to his office seems like something someone of his character is much more likely to do (and he's much less likely to be caught) than going to enormous efforts to help people he doesn't know (without even knowing their mission) crack security which makes it obvious that someone was helping from the inside and start security hunting for them.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
They get one keycard from Domino in the OG. In the Remake they get all of them from him or through his arrangements ...
Not accurate. Tifa's awful platforming sequence gets them their first keycard in the remake.

In the OG, Sephiroth opens one door, and they fight their way out ...
Here, Hojo opens some doors and they fight their way out (in far more spectacular fashion than in the original).

... after having found their way in themselves. In Remake, HQ gets them in ...
Not accurate in so many ways. =|

They still make their own way in, just as in the original game. Once in, they then still get unexpected assistance to help them progress, just as in the original game. And Domino (not HQ) assists them, just as in the original game.

The only meaningful difference here is that there is now at least a handwavey explanation (blessedly tied to the already established world building in the form of Mayor Domino) for their continued success once inside rather than just "Thank God nobody raised the alarm despite the guards they took out at the entrance and on the elevator ride. Or those on the 59th floor, even if they did take the stairs. And thankfully that one guy watching the monitors was asleep on the job -- oh, wait, nevermind, these first couple of guards on the 60th floor don't care if they see you anyway; they just tell you to leave, but then don't make sure that you do. Or even attack you if you keep getting discovered by the other guards on this floor. And praise the goddess that this presumptive buffoon on the 61st floor thinks you're maintenance."

If you think that Domino choosing to help guys who were recognizably Avalanche despite not knowing the specifics of their mission is more of a stretch than all of that bullshit, then I can't help you. =|

... AND help from the Whispers...
Given what they are, though, that's taking issue with the fiction being fiction. =P

... and AVALANCHE HQ giving them their escape route.
They didn't, though. Cloud and co. had to create their own route, because HQ's was a bust.

If Rufus is indeed co-ordinating AVALANCHE's ops in Shinra HQ, then they had his help through AVALANCHE HQ.
Well, there's no indication that he is. Domino clearly didn't call Rufus or even HQ and get instructions from them about what to do about Cloud's team.

Everything I'm saying is right there in the game ...

I mean ... :wacky: I identified a pretty long list of things that were patently factually not factual.

Now, what I think you need to ask yourself before digging your heels in on this question of achievement by the leads any further is what Cloud and co. set out to do, whether that was accomplished, and whether that would have been accomplished without their efforts. Because I'm confident
Aerith would not have been rescued had things been left to Domino, Hojo, Sephiroth, HQ, Rufus, nor anyone else.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Not accurate. Tifa's awful platforming sequence gets them their first keycard in the remake.

True. He does shut down the system so she can get out, though.

Here, Hojo opens some doors and they fight their way out (in far more spectacular fashion than in the original).

Of course it's more spectacular, we're looking at 2020 production values v 1997.

In the OG, they get one door opened for them and otherwise have to fend for themselves. Here, they need a lot of help from Whispers, HQ, and Hojo. There is a difference.

The only meaningful difference here is that there is now at least a handwavey explanation (blessedly tied to the already established world building in the form of Mayor Domino) for their continued success once inside rather than just "Thank God nobody raised the alarm despite the guards they took out at the entrance and on the elevator ride. Or those on the 59th floor, even if they did take the stairs. And thankfully that one guy watching the monitors was asleep on the job -- oh, wait, nevermind, these first couple of guards on the 60th floor don't care if they see you anyway; they just tell you to leave, but then don't make sure that you do. Or even attack you if you keep getting discovered by the other guards on this floor. And praise the goddess that this presumptive buffoon on the 61st floor thinks you're maintenance."

It could be improved. You can avoid most of those encounters you are talking about (and the fact that you have to take the least stealthy route possible for your argument is pretty telling) the only compulsory ones are the three on floor 59, which require much less handwaving. But if you think it's more plausible to leave a giant pile of corpses in the parking garage and then climb around on the light fixtures in the lobby of this giant skyscraper and that Domino can cover it up without anyone noticing, then we have an impasse.

Given what they are, though, that's taking issue with the fiction being fiction. =P

In universe they keep fate on track, right?

They didn't, though. Cloud and co. had to create their own route, because HQ's was a bust.

Hmm. Depends. Did that explosion divert attention of security? And there's the Whispers again.

Well, there's no indication that he is. Domino clearly didn't call Rufus or even HQ and get instructions from them about what to do about Cloud's team.

Sure. That was Lic's hypothetical, so I was acting as though it was true for the sake of argument. We don't know what contact was or wasn't made (Wedge obviously checked in with them, at least.)

I mean ... :wacky: I identified a pretty long list of things that were patently factually not factual.

Did you? This is what I said:

They get one keycard from Domino in the OG. In the Remake they get all of them from him or through his arrangements, (including directions to the bathroom on the Exec's floor) as well as him quashing tripped alarms and security.

In the OG, Sephiroth opens one door, and they fight their way out themselves, after having found their way in themselves. In Remake, HQ gets them in (with Domino making fun of how ineffective they are), Hojo intentionally letting them out of his ant farm, AND help from the Whispers, and AVALANCHE HQ giving them their escape route. If Rufus is indeed co-ordinating AVALANCHE's ops in Shinra HQ, then they had his help through AVALANCHE HQ.

'All of them' is wrong because I forgot about the lobby one, but even then he shuts down security so Tifa can get out. The rest is still true, they didn't have help from Whispers, AVALANCHE HQ, or Hojo in the OG version. Domino gave them one keycard, and Sephiroth opened a door. They sneak in themselves with no one turning off alarms or upgrading their keycards for them. HQ got them in through Domino helping them get through the building, and then out again. Without all that help, they trip alarms at the front door and get nowhere.

So, you found one thing.

My chapter by chapter logs are right there if you think I'm just randomly making this up for the sake of this conversation. We can't argue our emotional responses, but I think it's pretty clear that
the crew requires a lot more external help to get through Shinra HQ this time around.
If that's not a problem for you, okay (it's not game breaking for me either, for what its worth)
 
Can someone explain something to me?
Why did Hojo put them in the Drum in the first place and why did he decide it was time to let them out? Aside from the obvous reason that a chapter full of filler was needed to stretch out the action?
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Can someone explain something to me?
Why did Hojo put them in the Drum in the first place and why did he decide it was time to let them out? Aside from the obvious reason that a chapter full of filler was needed to stretch out the action?
Hojo didn't put them in the Drum, Sephiroth knocked them down into it. He kept them there so he could run combat experiments with his experimental subjects, aka, for his own amusement. I can only assume he got bored of messing with them and wanted to see what would happen with Sephiroth, since he already knows who Cloud is.
 
The bridge was inside the drum, though, wasn't it? I found the topography of the place confusing, but my impression is that Jenova was being held in a big test tube in the centre, surrounded by incubation pods, and the vast central area that held both theese things was in turn surrounded by a warren of corridors, holding pens, and big empty concrete rooms.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I generally don't pay attention to these things but I can't help but notice me and Clem said the same thing basically and you only liked his post. I need my worthless internet points damn it.

The bridge was inside the drum, though, wasn't it? I found the topography of the place confusing, but my impression is that Jenova was being held in a big test tube in the center, surrounded by incubation pods, and the vast central area that held both these things was in turn surrounded by a warren of corridors, holding pens, and big empty concrete rooms.
Jenova's pod was the very top of the room, the Drum dungeon was below. One thing I've been wondering is, does "the drum" refer to that big cylindrical part of the Shinra building? That makes sense in my head but I'm not sure it actually works with the floor plan.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Of course it's more spectacular, we're looking at 2020 production values v 1997.

Not just in the flashy sense. They face greater and longer obstacles here as well (e.g. all that mandatory crap in The Drum).

Clement said:
In the OG, they get one door opened for them and otherwise have to fend for themselves. Here, they need a lot of help from Whispers, HQ, and Hojo. There is a difference.

HQ literally doesn't help them at all, and Hojo simply takes Seph's place in helping them here.

Clement said:
It could be improved. You can avoid most of those encounters you are talking about (and the fact that you have to take the least stealthy route possible for your argument is pretty telling) the only compulsory ones are the three on floor 59, which require much less handwaving.

Unfair and you know it. I cited both paths, which include the encounter on the 59th floor, the guards who are looking right at you (yet do nothing no matter what) when you emerge on the 60th, and the idiot on the 61st floor.

Clement said:
In universe they keep fate on track, right?

I would phrase it as "in universe, they make sure things more or less go as they did last time," but either way, we're talking about anthropomorphized plot armor.

Clement said:
Hmm. Depends. Did that explosion divert attention of security?

No? At best, it did nothing to hurt or help. Rufus and his guards were literally ... right there. Rufus immediately sends his guards after Aerith and the others, The Arsenal gets released on them as well, and Heidegger and a squad that momentarily successfully subdues them is waiting at the exit.

Clement said:
And there's the Whispers again.

Whose most notable contribution, let's not forget, is to assist in an encounter that wasn't present in the original telling anyway. :monster:

But I will give you that they help out twice during the motorcycle sequence, which obviously was in the original. I do genuinely share your annoyance about that.

Granted, they're helping out with dangers that weren't part of the original sequence, but still -- they fucked with the flow and weren't needed there. They'd already been used plenty for the purpose the new narrative needed to get the point of them across.

Clement said:
Sure. That was Lic's hypothetical, so I was acting as though it was true for the sake of argument. We don't know what contact was or wasn't made ...

I mean, we know Domino thought they were there to take out the President, so he obviously hadn't yet spoken with HQ about them at that time.

Clement said:
'All of them' is wrong ...

But I didn't say "All of them," I said "a pretty long list."

Clement said:
The rest is still true, they didn't have help from Whispers, AVALANCHE HQ, or Hojo in the OG version.

Just repeating myself here, but they didn't have help from Avalanche HQ at all in this version either, and Hojo takes Seph's place from the original here, so ... other than the Whispers (new) in a new event, along with a couple of admittedly annoying assists during the bike sequence ... Domino just (for the most part) neatly absorbs the numerous implausible conveniences in the original's series of events.

Clement said:
Domino gave them one keycard, and Sephiroth opened a door.

And some random idiot gave them another keycard. And another guy fell asleep at the security camera desk. And a couple of guards don't report or attack. And other guards get killed in the middle of the wide open floor plan of the 59th floor without any issues arising.

Do we need to keep going?

Clement said:
HQ got them in through Domino helping them get through the building, and then out again.

That's like saying Avalanche got Aerith away from Reno and escorted her home because an associate of theirs (Cloud) did it.

And no, HQ did dick all to get them out. For that matter, Domino did dick all to get them out.

Clement said:
So, you found one thing.

Bro ...
 

Graven Lane

Lv. 1 Adventurer
There were a few little things that I would like to see changed gameplay wise:
* In the OG version there were more sorting options for items, materia, and equips. In Remake there isn't very many. I always liked the option of sorting by type or even a custom sort
* The Battle Intel menu was awesome, however navigating it was kind of annoying. It would have been nice to have a page up or page down option with R1 or R2 (or something similar) or maybe even some way to filter through it (alphabetically, or by elemental weakness, etc.)
* I think it would have been nice to see that when you selected your party leader, you actually got to see them running around on the screen (even if Cloud is in the party).
* Since Chadley is collecting all of your battle intel, it would have been awesome to be able to fight any previous enemy in the final combat simulator.
 
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