Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know it's Jenovaroth who is running around before we get to the NC in the og, but who knows if that applies to the remake too since we know there is something weird going on with Sephiroth, but it doesn't really matter if it's Sephiroth using Jenova by proxy or if it his spirit from the future projecting himself through the lifestream into Clouds brain or something even weirder.
Because the fact of the matter is that Cloud does have a epic vendetta against Sephiroth, that part isn't a lie, the actual lie is that Sephiroth through his manipulation makes Cloud believe that this isn't the case, that he is a clone with no past, that he was never present at the Nibelheim incident.
So that's why it's so insane to hear Sephiroth himself tell Cloud that he was at the Nibelheim incident and that he does have a mother, he is basically confirming to him that he is Cloud from Nibelheim, which makes me really wonder where this all is going

Precisely. This is the opposite of what Seph did in the original, where he dismissed Cloud's humanity at every turn -- initially pretending to not even know who he was, then later acting like the answer had presented itself by virtue of Cloud being a Jenova construct that had never been a real person.

So, to me, this doesn't ring true:

Fundamentally, he seems to be doing the same thing as in the original. He is making Cloud think he has some epic vendetta to settle against him.

Seph didn't present the idea to Cloud that he had a vendetta against him. Quite the opposite: Cloud was his unknowing ally all along -- a tool that had fallen out of the toolbox, wandered off, and gotten confused.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Yes, it will be interesting to see how they play it. I am guessing Sephiroth will tell him it was a lie all along, and Tifa's doubt will only cause the gnawing doubts in Cloud's mind to shatter his reality, just as in the original. Of course, we all know he was there. But people new to this will be very intrigued by what's going on.

I don't know, Sephiroth kinda treats Cloud like he is the chosen one now, you know. He literally tells him at the edge of creation that the destiny of the planet lies in his hands, it would be weird writing for him to turn around and go punk'd you bitch you're just a clone and keep in mind Sephiroth wants Cloud to remember that anger and hatred he felt that day, this is the one thing I took away from his remake version: he really, really badly wants Cloud to be angry and that he believes that through negative emotions Cloud will become stronger.

I mean don't get me wrong we do see Clouds identity crisis getting set up, like in the church or in reactor 5 basically everytime "real" Cloud is talking to himself, the game is pretty faithful in regards to that except in the first bombing mission, what do we get instead of real Cloud warning us that "this isn't a normal reactor"? A black feather.

 

[Kain424]

I think this is because we are seeing both sides of the Sephiroth coin now. Whereas in the original game, we pretty much exclusively saw Sephiroth's workings from the shadows, now we get to see Sephiroth working his way into Cloud's mind, almost from the moment Cloud is in Midgar. And just as they've decided to play up Sephiroth's role in Remake, so too will they be playing his mental games a bit different this time. But this is still fundamentally the same game. He makes Cloud chase him. He takes control of Cloud and makes him perform his bidding.



And my guess is that is what is going on during the Edge of Creation scene. Sephiroth has spent the whole game getting into Cloud's mind. And when he symbolically disarms Cloud in that headspace, Sephiroth basically takes control.

 

[Ite]

But... Hojo already told Cloud, Tifa and Barret that Cloud was never in SOLDIER. Cloud may not have heard it because of Jenova static, but the subtitles display the full line of dialogue and he has time to even raise his arms dramatically after the sentence before the whispers carry him away. Tifa and Barret fully heard that. I don’t really see how the OG’s twist is going to be play out even remotely similar. Even if Tifa is rightfully distrustful of Hojo, he still gave her a major clue to her #1 source of anxiety. Not just a clue — a full on answer that she can weigh each new piece of evidence against. When Cloud tells his bullhockey story, twitching and clutching his head half the time, I imagine she’ll react differently — why else would the writers spoil the story’s biggest twist?

 

[a_apple]

But... Hojo already told Cloud, Tifa and Barret that Cloud was never in SOLDIER. Cloud may not have heard it because of Jenova static, but the subtitles display the full line of dialogue and he has time to even raise his arms dramatically after the sentence before the whispers carry him away. Tifa and Barret fully heard that. I don’t really see how the OG’s twist is going to be play out even remotely similar. Even if Tifa is rightfully distrustful of Hojo, he still gave her a major clue to her #1 source of anxiety. Not just a clue — a full on answer that she can weigh each new piece of evidence against. When Cloud tells his bullhockey story, twitching and clutching his head half the time, I imagine she’ll react differently — why else would the writers spoil the story’s biggest twist?

pretty sure that was just the English localisation fucking up again, in the japanese version Hojo never reveals that Cloud wasn't a Soldier

 

[Ite]

pretty sure that was just the English localisation fucking up again, in the japanese version Hojo never reveals that Cloud wasn't a Soldier

That... is an enormous fuckup. That is probably the biggest translation fuck up I’ve ever heard of. That would be like if the French version of the bed scene in Sixth Sense said “You don’t know you’re dead” instead of “they.” I need to know, what’s that line in every official language...?

 

[a_apple]

That... is an enormous fuckup. That is probably the biggest translation fuck up I’ve ever heard of. That would be like if the French version of the bed scene in Sixth Sense said “You don’t know you’re dead” instead of “they.” I need to know, what’s that line in every official language...?

Yeah, makes you kinda wonder how something like that could happen, but yeah Hojo never reveals that Cloud wasn't a Soldier, which makes sense since such a huge deviation from the og would at least get some kind of acknowledgement from the Ultimania or something.
I don't remember the exact quote but back in summer there were gorillion threads on reddit where people were having the exact same issue, let me look it up

 

[Roger]

The Japanese isn't different at all, Hojo tells them Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER and the Whispers arrive afterwards.

Cloud can't hear it because of Jenova's static in his head but Hojo is still talking and the loudspeaker is still on, no reason to believe that Tifa and Barret somehow can't hear him.

 

[Shademp]

Had to look into the Japanese version of that scene now

宝条：その瞳　ソルジャーか？​

クラウド：ああ​

宝条：いや　違う​

宝条：思い出したぞ​

私の記憶違いだったな​

宝条：おまえは　ソルジャー――​

Audibly we hear him say ソルジャーでわ before the noise cuts off.

Auto-translate:

Hojo: Those eyes, SOLDIER?​

Cloud: Yeah.​

Hojo: No, no.​

Hojo: I remember now. It was a mistake in my memory.​

Hojo: You are a SOLDIER--​

Roger accurately points out that the scene is still immensely egregious, regardless of version, because it gives the impression that Hojo reveals the truth while Tifa and Barret can still hear him.

Far as how much the player hears though, the Japanese script is less "in your face" about this early reveal than the English text.

Hojo: My, are you a SOLDIER?​

Cloud: Yeah.​

Hojo: No, not quite.​

Hojo: Oh, now I recall. My memory was mistaken.​

Hojo: My boy, you weren't a SOLDIER...​

There's a big difference between a sentence beginning with "(You are) a SOLDIER" and "My boy, you weren't a SOLDIER". True, the context makes it clear in both versions that Hojo is about to deny Cloud's claim. But if we're looking at the nuance, I think the JP text is less "sinful" in its stupidity than the English text is here.

Edit: I am not an actual translator so somebody with real knowledge on the Japanese language can probably correct me on some of the nuance here.

 

[Eerie]

Finally found the French version here:

Hojo : Ça par exemple ! Êtes-vous un SOLDAT ?
Cloud : Oui.
Hojo : Ah non, suis-je bête...
Hojo : Ah, ça me revient... J'avais oublié un détail important.
Hojo : Plutôt qu'un SOLDAT, vous...

English:
Hojo: Oh, my! Are you a SOLDIER?
Cloud: Yes.
Hojo: Ah, no, how stupid am I...
Hojo: Ah, I'm remembering... I had forgotten an important detail.
Hojo: Rather than a SOLDIER, you...

The rest is cut, but we can see him continue to talk. Seeing how he talked to Cloud in the OG in the Northern Crater about how he was a failed experiment, we can guess that it was probably what he is saying at that point. But only those who know that plot point can guess it - however, it's strongly implied there that Cloud isn't a SOLDIER. And indeed, there is no reason as to why Tifa and Barret can't hear Hojo - they definitely do, though their attention is taken away very fast by the whispers right after that.

However, who to trust? Shinra's mad scientist, or their friend? For now, they definitely chose their friend. When the Northern Crater scene will come, though, Cloud will go probably even lower than what he did in the OG, this will probably come back.

 

[Roger]

For now, they definitely chose their friend. When the Northern Crater scene will come, though, Cloud will go probably even lower than what he did in the OG, this will probably come back.

Tifa is looking for explanation as to why this SOLDIER isn't one of the two SOLDIERs that she remembered coming to Nibelheim 5 years ago but has details only someone personally present knows, more then that, gives an account of his mother's death that could only have transpired if Cloud himself was present, regardless of whether any memory transference from Jenova abilities did take place between Cloud and Tifa or Zack, her hearing from a Shinra scientist that despite Cloud's Mako eyes which can't really be faked, he was never in SOLDIER is giving the game away. And Tifa's knowledge at the Northern Crater is everything. Cloud says as much:
"But, Tifa......
But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?
Those words will always support me.
I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim.
No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth.
That's why you shouldn't be so scared.
No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts..."

Giving Tifa a lifeline to still believe this Cloud is the one from Nibelheim, regardless of what happened in the seven years she didn't see him, should change everything. Or otherwise Tifa is not as important to the breaking down of the persona Cloud only created to impress Tifa upon meeting her in Midgar.

 

[Eerie]

Yes, but the game shows us that she still chose to believe that Cloud is the real Cloud of Nibelheim. It was also her choice even though his story didn't match with her memories in the OG. Tifa only fails to believe in Cloud when she is manipulated by Sephiroth at the Northern Crater. Remake is following the steps of the OG, showing her doubts and at the same time, her unwavering faith in Cloud - which is what supports Cloud. I see no difference, really.

 

[oty]

I really want to see the newcomers take on this. I doubt this can actually change anything story-wise, since the gang would probably believe more in a random Corneo goon than anything that a Shinra person could say. I mean, they really hate their guts lol

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

The way Hojo speaks in japanese is ambiguous (the では, can be an affirmative, could mean potentialy be, but could also be questioning, ではないか ...) given the rest of his speech could turn around the meaning we got in the localized version.
Any of you able to read Hojo Lips?

 

[Shademp]

Any of you able to read Hojo Lips?

I think it's more a question of whether anybody WANTS to read Hojo's greasy, disgusting lips than if they can

 

[Roger]

Yes, but the game shows us that she still chose to believe that Cloud is the real Cloud of Nibelheim. It was also her choice even though his story didn't match with her memories in the OG. Tifa only fails to believe in Cloud when she is manipulated by Sephiroth at the Northern Crater. Remake is following the steps of the OG, showing her doubts and at the same time, her unwavering faith in Cloud - which is what supports Cloud. I see no difference, really.

There's nothing left to manipulate if she knows it is Cloud from Nibelheim and doesn't doubt it any further. There's no story for me if Sephiroth can just make anything happen out of the bloom, irrespective of anything Tifa or Cloud believe or do differently throughout the game.

 

[Eerie]

There are at least 2 if not more games before the Northern Crater. We'll have more of Tifa's doubts, more seeds planted along the way. But that's how the OG worked too, so I don't know why you're so worked up about this.

 

[Roger]

There are at least 2 if not more games before the Northern Crater. We'll have more of Tifa's doubts, more seeds planted along the way. But that's how the OG worked too, so I don't know why you're so worked up about this.

We'll have more doubts and much more information and hinting at the truth in those games as well. That's a reason to not like her already having much more information about the what and how of Cloud's true identity leaving Midgar then she should arriving at the Northern Crater, not a reason to be okay with it. Tifa not knowing Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER was how the OG game worked, pretty key part of it. Cloud not being able to recall that he killed Sephiroth until he and Tifa discover as much in the Lifestream along with his real identity was how the OG game worked. That's not how the Remake works, but you can guarantee we'll go through the motions anyway, do a greatest hits of what Sephiroth's plan would have entailed if he was still following the OG plot just because those sequences are iconic anyway.

 

[ultima786]

I agree with both @The Twilight Mexican and @Kain424 . Kain is right that Sephiroth is fundamentally sound the same thing as in OG: summoning Cloud. Twilight is right in that this summoning seems to be happening differently: by upping the feeling of vengeance and hatred so that Cloud is more eager to pursue him. So the purpose is likely the same, though the mechanics differ.

I also speculate that Sephiroth needs to strengthen his tie to Cloud, by making his emotional connection and memory of him more intense (in order that he may Manifest his persona more profoundly... after all, Cloud is the only Jenova clone with strong memories of Sephiroth).

 

[Eerie]

We'll have more doubts and much more information and hinting at the truth in those games as well. That's a reason to not like her already having much more information about the what and how of Cloud's true identity leaving Midgar then she should arriving at the Northern Crater, not a reason to be okay with it. Tifa not knowing Cloud wasn't in SOLDIER was how the OG game worked, pretty key part of it. Cloud not being able to recall that he killed Sephiroth until he and Tifa discover as much in the Lifestream along with his real identity was how the OG game worked. That's not how the Remake works, but you can guarantee we'll go through the motions anyway, do a greatest hits of what Sephiroth's plan would have entailed if he was still following the OG plot just because those sequences are iconic anyway.

You see, that is why I say that Remake works with different tricks. In the OG, the goal was to surprise us with the Lifestream scene. It's supposed to be a "schocking scene". You're supposed to go in and not know what'll happen, and understand that it's Cloud's feeling for Tifa that started everything, that explain absolutely everything about how he acts etc. and go "HOLY CRAP I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!!" However this time around, it's not the same at all. A lot of players were already aware of this scene, and so this is why the devs tell absolutely every new fan to play the OG and the rest of the Compilation - they want fans to be really aware of CC and ACC, in my opinion. Why? Because while we're going to get the Lifestream scene - and other iconic scenes - the how we'll get there will be different. People know this. They won't be surprised. So, they pull different strings. But already in Part 1, they planted the seeds for the Northern Crater and the Lifestream scenes - and the more I look at them, the more I am convinced that those two scenes should be in the same game because it's an incredible backbone for storytelling.

 

[Roger]

You see, that is why I say that Remake works with different tricks. In the OG, the goal was to surprise us with the Lifestream scene. It's supposed to be a "schocking scene". You're supposed to go in and not know what'll happen, and understand that it's Cloud's feeling for Tifa that started everything, that explain absolutely everything about how he acts etc. and go "HOLY CRAP I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!!" However this time around, it's not the same at all. A lot of players were already aware of this scene, and so this is why the devs tell absolutely every new fan to play the OG and the rest of the Compilation - they want fans to be really aware of CC and ACC, in my opinion. Why? Because while we're going to get the Lifestream scene - and other iconic scenes - the how we'll get there will be different. People know this. They won't be surprised. So, they pull different strings. But already in Part 1, they planted the seeds for the Northern Crater and the Lifestream scenes - and the more I look at them, the more I am convinced that those two scenes should be in the same game because it's an incredible backbone for storytelling.

I agree that we are no longer meant to be surprised by these relevations, they still need to be surprises for Tifa, however. The Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth scene and recovering his memories in the Lifestream sequences are iconic (and the WEAPON superbosses and the Meteor in the sky that FFVII owe it's logo from that follow are probably downright non negotiable), they happen because of Tifa, and what Tifa doesn't know about Cloud yet at the Northern Crater. There aren't a million reasons Cloud would give up on life and let Sephiroth call a meteor to destroy the planet, nor are there a million reasons Tifa would doubt Cloud's claim to being from Nibelheim. It's not a puzzle that fits together a whole lot of different ways. As such Tifa being told clearly and concisely that Cloud is not a SOLDIER First Class at all, is pretty different, really.

 

[Eerie]

Even if it's a puzzle piece, it's a rather weak one. She will be even *more* confused when Cloud tells his story in Kalm - or however that happens. What does Hojo say then? It's a mystery. If he says "you're a puppet" or "a failed experiment", what can Tifa and Barret conclude from this, when Cloud, despite having memory lapse and weird headaches, still seems to be Cloud and acts like Cloud. It's no mistake that the devs have made Cloud and Tifa act the way they did and be so close during the Remake it's almost a "woah wait up so much cloti in part 1?", it's because of that strong bond that Tifa can chose to side with Cloud and believe in him. If their interactions had been depicted as it was in the OG then it would have been weird, but it's not the case. Tifa in both OG and Remake has doubts and fear. She may have more information in Remake, but she also has a stronger reason to believe in Cloud there.

 

[Roger]

Even if it's a puzzle piece, it's a rather weak one. She will be even *more* confused when Cloud tells his story in Kalm - or however that happens. What does Hojo say then? It's a mystery. If he says "you're a puppet" or "a failed experiment", what can Tifa and Barret conclude from this, when Cloud, despite having memory lapse and weird headaches, still seems to be Cloud and acts like Cloud. It's no mistake that the devs have made Cloud and Tifa act the way they did and be so close during the Remake it's almost a "woah wait up so much cloti in part 1?", it's because of that strong bond that Tifa can chose to side with Cloud and believe in him. If their interactions had been depicted as it was in the OG then it would have been weird, but it's not the case. Tifa in both OG and Remake has doubts and fear. She may have more information in Remake, but she also has a stronger reason to believe in Cloud there.

Tifa can't explain why Cloud knows the things only someone there in Nibelheim that very day can know, when Shinra dispatched only two SOLDIERs that way and only the Shinra science that make SOLDIERs could have given Cloud the Mako eyes that he and Zack and Sephiroth share. Yes, a Shinra scientist telling her he was never in SOLDIER despite this, opens up new possibilities. Ones that do not require her to believe Cloud's story over her own memories or consider this Cloud and the Cloud she grew up with different entities. At the very least she has months to consider these things now rather then the one minute at the Northern Crater when Hojo arrives at the Northern crater and Cloud and Sephiroth are already on the move.

Also why change these things to begin with if they can't ultimately change the things that the original course of events led to?

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Yes, a Shinra scientist telling her he was never in SOLDIER despite this, opens up new possibilities.

We can't say for sure he does, though. It does seem it could be the other way around, really. The english localization just messed with that part.

 

[Roger]

We can't say for sure he does, though. It does seem it could be the other way around, really. The english localization just messed with that part.

They did earlier drafts of this script where the sequence was different, they choose what they went with. That's a decision covered in the ultimania not an accidental mistake the english localization made. The whispers are coming to intervene because Hojo IS spilling the beans, whatever the most literal translation of the japanese script is. Cloud is having flashes so he can't hear it. The english translation makes clearer what it is cloud isn't hearing but regardless, Tifa doesn't have Jenova interference. Cloud asserts that what ultimately matters is what Tifa believes, not what he himself believes. Deciding Hojo dropping truth bombs to the party is okay as long as Cloud can't hear it runs counter that idea I feel.