Hopes for the remake (story/content)

KindOfBlue

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Do you think they're going to like, loop the Compilation then? Like, Remake AC and Dirge of Cerberus? I just... find that very unlikely. Maybe they'll revisit them in game form or something but I don't see them actually going through the creative effort of remaking the entire Compilation just to make it continue off the Remake FFVII and then we have a Remake of the Compilation to match the Remake of FFVII. The writers would be burned out as hell and ready to rest.

They're certainly not undoing it. I'd bet you money on that. And the fact the writers keep calling back (not fanservice, literal in narrative meaningful call backs) and keep referencing the overall narrative, shows that it holds significance. Again, they're not going Disney and wiping the EU just to "start fresh." That's not even their style.
Quite the opposite really, I think a loop would be more likely if they for sure wanted the events of AC and DoC to absolutely still follow the remake because now they have to ensure that whatever happens, it has to fit with established continuity. On the other hand though, if they’re not so committed to making sure AC and DoC follow the remake’s version of the OG, it gives them free reign to do practically anything they want with those plot points. I would hope that level of creative freedom might be a good thing for them?

Now I definitely don’t expect them to totally remake AC and DoC, you’re right about them being burnt out. All they’d have to do is take as many AC and DoC plot elements as they can fit into the remake, resolve them within the remake’s timeframe, and let the ending of the remake be THE end of the compilation. No more conflicts to set up, just complete closure. They definitely don’t have to start fresh to do this, it’s really just a way of making sure the end of the remake is THE absolute end of FF7.

EDIT: they’ll still find ways to milk this but I mean the end of the main story lol
 

Makoeyes987

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They've already done it. Why would they do it again just for the Remake? Yeah, it's freedom but who says its a freedom they're even looking for? They don't speak of their past work as anything they wish to redo whatsoever.

And in the end, that's still "remaking" those titles. What you're saying is a reboot/remake of the Compilation. Why would they pick and choose what to keep and then just do it all over anyways? Either they'd do it over completely and revisit making a new post FFVII story or they'd not because it's been done before. If the Remake is functionally FFVII, then the stories post FFVII would be the same for the Remake. So what would be the point in rebuilding that?
 
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KindOfBlue

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Blue
They've already did it. Why would they do it again just for the Remake? Yeah, it's freedom but who says its a freedom they're even looking for? They don't speak of their past work as anything they wish to redo whatsoever.

And in the end, that's still "remaking" those titles. Why would they just pick and choose what to keep and then just do it all over anyways? Either they'd do it over completely and revisit making a new post FFVII story or they'd not because it's been done before. Of the Remake is FFVII, then the stories post FFVII would be the same for the Remake. So what would be the point in rebuilding that?
They didn’t do it because we’re still here lol I don’t remember how far back the remake was planned but it’s been in the air long before it was announced wasn’t it?

But as far as freedom goes, I don’t know how else they can justify an “unknown journey” if everything is going to be exactly the same, something’s gotta be different right? That’s why when they talk about still following the OG, I don’t see anything in there about AC and DoC being set in stone. Not that they absolutely won’t still lead to that, but my point is they aren’t guaranteed to.

It isn’t a undoing of AC and DoC in the slightest, those titles still exist and are still relevant to the established continuity. All I’m proposing would be an earlier resolution to those plot elements so that those conflicts don’t still have to follow the remake’s ending. We’re on the same page here in terms of those elements being incorporated in the remake, where we differ is what that means for the future.

We don’t actually need a post-FFVII story for that to work either, an epilogue in the game would be nice but the point here is to end Sephiroth. Like, END end him. Unless I’m missing something, I don’t recall Sephiroth being totally eradicated, isn’t Cloud’s memory of him what keeps him alive?

Either way, it wouldn’t be a reboot or remake of the compilation, just a roundabout way to tie up everything within the remake. The remake’s continuity may follow the OG’s, but it’s still free to take liberties within its own continuity. How they use that freedom remains to be seen.
 
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Makoeyes987

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The Remake isn't going to be exactly the same. Intermission showed us that. So they have plenty of room to add new events and experiences to differentiate this iteration of FFVII from the original.

But they've said and demonstrated several times how this Remake occupies the same narrative and continuity space as the OG. They've only demonstrated pride and satisfaction with what they've crafted in the stories that took place after. Why would they feel the need to do it again? There's no gaping hole or want for a remix of the Compilation. I know you say it's not de-canoning them but it is. It's a soft reboot. They'd be retreading ground. They'd have to sit back down and create a new post FFVII story when AC is still there and they'd have to rethink how to rewrite a story that's different from it. They're not doing that lol.

Sephiroth was dead post-AC until the writers decided to do this. So they can easily reloop it and contextualize the Remake as the final end while leading to AC which provides the lead up to Sephiroth in the Remake. If that's their choice.

They literally did this in Kingdom Hearts so I don't see how this would be difficult to accomplish here. And they certainly didn't remake KH or it's games either.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Reading all this convo made me think that Sephiroth from chapter 18, the one from the future, is going to die. He'll have no choice and will have to accept it. It will be part of his redemption, so to speak, but since it's a Sephiroth from the far future, they can do that.
 

Makoeyes987

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I think there's a meta reading in the fact that the Sephiroth from Chapter 18 is one who wishes the world of FFVII to never die and he treasures all the conflicts and struggling with Cloud, to the point he'd be willing to team up with his most hated foe, just so he can perpetuate that immortality.

Sephiroth doesn't want FFVII to ever end. He doesn't want to let go. And he wants this dance to go on into perpetuity if it means continued existence.

I don't think that's an accident. :monster:
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
But they've said and demonstrated several times how this Remake occupies the same narrative and continuity space as the OG.
We gotta be clear on the difference between narrative and continuity here. The remake and OG share the same narrative, but not the exact same continuity. We can presume much of the backstory to be the same, but Zack didn’t survive in the OG, the Whispers didn’t exist, Cloud didn’t go to Jessie’s house, the Honeybee Inn wasn’t a club where Cloud danced his heart out, Wedge didn’t survive the platefall only to then be thrown from Shinra HQ, Sephiroth didn’t stab Barret, and Cloud and the gang didn’t fight Sephiroth after killing fate on the Midgar Expressway. We can only chalk up so many differences to just being “expansions” of the OG here.

There's no gaping hole or want for a remix of the Compilation. I know you say it's not de-canoning them but it is. It's a soft reboot.
But how would it be decanonized in a continuity where it never happened in the first place? The OG would still remain untouched, it’s not like AC and DoC would retroactively disappear just because they don’t follow the remake

They've only demonstrated pride and satisfaction with what they've crafted in the stories that took place after. Why would they feel the need to do it again?
They don’t have to do it again, they’re already going to tell new stories with Compilation elements, are they not? It’s the same idea, only with more room to resolve without being so strictly tied to specific directions

They'd have to sit back down and create a new post FFVII story when AC is still there and they'd have to rethink how to rewrite a story that's different from it. They're not doing that lol.
For one, I’m pretty sure even if they still led to AC and DoC, they’d give us some insight into what Cloud’s life was like post-crisis. But if they don’t lead to those titles, they can still use all of the same elements that were already established, Cloud and Tifa adopt Denzel, Cloud becomes a deliveryman etc.

More to my point though, they really don’t have to do much. They could write a short story, or have an epilogue sequence in-game, or even just say in an interview “yeah, Cloud and Tifa had many babies and died of old age” or something and leave it at that, it’s really up to them lol.
 
They'd have to sit back down and create a new post FFVII story when AC is still there and they'd have to rethink how to rewrite a story that's different from it. They're not doing that lol.
In the new-timeline scenario I'm picturing, FF7R ends near Meteorfall and we get at most a brief epilogue of events that occur after.

There will be no Geostigma because Sephiroth and Jenova will have met an ultimate end this time around. Deepground will not attack the world because they will already have been annihilated via a new series of events within FF7R. We may even see Shelke reuniting with Shalua in this new pre-Meteorfall scenario. Vincent Valentine will already have had his walking-out-of-cave moment ("You were the reason I survived") with Lucrecia but within FF7R. Lucrecia's fate will also preferably have seen proper closure within FF7R, probably through death but possibly something else. Tifa and the rest will still build Seventh Heaven in Edge and they may still end up adopting Denzel.

From recent interview posted on The Gamer:
Before the release of Episode Intermission, it was unclear if the likes of Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and the range of other Final Fantasy 7 material was considered canonical in the remake’s universe. Toriyama-san confirmed that this is definitely the case, describing the remake project as a “coming together” of sorts for over 20 years of adventures. “I want to make it so fans who know the original game and the different Final Fantasy 7 universe titles can look forward to seeing how they all relate and join up with each other, while at the same time communicating how deep and amazing the world and characters of Final Fantasy 7 are to newcomers who will not have seen any of them,” Toriyama-san explains. “Remake is based on the original, but is being made after all of those additions to the universe, so we want to take advantage of that and are planning it out as a kind of ‘coming together’ of all the works set in the Final Fantasy 7 universe to date.”
When I read these statements I see a ton of ambiguity. Some people will read the above and see this as a definitive statement that FF7R will loop back around to the familiar post-OG continuity. Others will read it and see it as definitely opening the door for a new timeline, with Compilation plots and characters being moved to WITHIN (coming together with, as it were) the FF7R pre-Meteorfall story. Others will read it differently still and not be sure what to believe.

I hold my stance that the future is largely open-ended here.
 

Makoeyes987

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We gotta be clear on the difference between narrative and continuity here. The remake and OG share the same narrative, but not the exact same continuity. We can presume much of the backstory to be the same, but Zack didn’t survive in the OG, the Whispers didn’t exist, Cloud didn’t go to Jessie’s house, the Honeybee Inn wasn’t a club where Cloud danced his heart out, Wedge didn’t survive the platefall only to then be thrown from Shinra HQ, Sephiroth didn’t stab Barret, and Cloud and the gang didn’t fight Sephiroth after killing fate on the Midgar Expressway. We can only chalk up so many differences to just being “expansions” of the OG here.
That's enough differentiation for the Remake and OG right there. But like they've said over and over, the Remake and OG are meant to share the same continuity and canon. Those variances in adaption don't warrant the Remake to somehow get a brand new Compilation future exclusive to it.


But how would it be decanonized in a continuity where it never happened in the first place? The OG would still remain untouched, it’s not like AC and DoC would retroactively disappear just because they don’t follow the remake
Bro, that's semantics, lol

If you erase something as if it never happened, that's still deletion. It's a soft reboot. That's rebooting, redoing the future for a new FFVII Compilation. That's what everyone would say.


They don’t have to do it again, they’re already going to tell new stories with Compilation elements, are they not? It’s the same idea, only with more room to resolve without being so strictly tied to specific directions
Those "new stories" are going to fit in the same FFVII Series space that already exists. Just like Two Pasts does. That's a new story. But it still fits within the confines of the established FFVII Compilation. They're not redoing anything, they're working with what they got.

For one, I’m pretty sure even if they still led to AC and DoC, they’d give us some insight into what Cloud’s life was like post-crisis. But if they don’t lead to those titles, they can still use all of the same elements that were already established, Cloud and Tifa adopt Denzel, Cloud becomes a deliveryman etc.

More to my point though, they really don’t have to do much. They could write a short story, or have an epilogue sequence in-game, or even just say in an interview “yeah, Cloud and Tifa had many babies and died of old age” or something and leave it at that, it’s really up to them lol.
They could do all of that yes, but it's going to still lead to, "To be Continued in FFVII Advent Children."

Like, I'm telling you lol, they're gonna be done. They're going to add new context from the Remake, to mesh with what we see in Advent Children to do a closed loop of everything here.

Here's an example! Think about it, why does Sephiroth suddenly want to leave the planet in AC? Why does Sephiroth suddenly want to sail the darkness of the cosmos with that planet as his vessel? Why is he so mad at Cloud and filled with a burning desire for revenge?

Maybe, through the Remake and it's conclusion, Sephiroth's been deprived of his perfect perpetual Promised Land and now he has to go in search of a new one. Like, it's not hard to see or for the writers to close this loop once and for all within their established work. Eventually they're going to end it.


There will be no Geostigma because Sephiroth and Jenova will have met an ultimate end this time around.
But why? This is the question I go back to every time when this possibility is put forth. What purpose, other than a perpetuation of FFVII, exists for them to retread these stories in a new "Remake timeline?" Why would they undo the appearance of Geostigma and Sephiroth's Advent? It's iconic. It's immortalized. It's exceedingly popular. It's a work they're proud of. Creatively and business wise it's a winner that best exists as a classic. So why do it over for the Remake which exists within the Compilation? Unless they're forced to by S-E executive meddling.

They don't have to make a new future, they can just loop it back to their previous works and have FFVII function as the beginning and end of the Compilation.

Like Toriyama's quote doesn't read as ambiguous to me at all. They're not this deceptive. If they said that, they mean it. The fact they're bringing together Compilation elements in the Remake solidifies their existence. It's a Reunion before these writers go on to Remake FFX and that universe.
 
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I didn't mean to suggest that elements from DoC (or AC, BC, etc...) wouldn't reappear in the Remake continuity. But if Cloud and Co have to fight Rosso and Azul in the Remake it will become increasingly hard to accept that nobody had any inkling there was something nasty in the Shinra Basement that needed to be sorted out pronto, which will undermine the premise on which DoC's narrative as it is currently constructed is built. DoC may still happen but no longer, to borrow KindofBlue's term, with the same continuity. It will have been revised.
 

Makoeyes987

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I didn't mean to suggest that elements from DoC (or AC, BC, etc...) wouldn't reappear in the Remake continuity. But if Cloud and Co have to fight Rosso and Azul in the Remake it will become increasingly hard to accept that nobody had any inkling there was something nasty in the Shinra Basement that needed to be sorted out pronto, which will undermine the premise on which DoC's narrative as it is currently constructed is built. DoC may still happen but no longer, to borrow KindofBlue's term, with the same continuity. It will have been revised.
Look at like this.

Would Cloud and the others remember every freakazoid they fought within the 2 to 3 months FFVII takes place? Would they remember three years later?

They don't know what "Deepground" is. They wouldn't know those two SOLDIERs from any other Shinra Science experiment. Hell, Azul could just be a Behemoth wearing a scarf.

And given the fact Cloud, Tifa and Barret are literally just cameos in Dirge of Cerberus, we don't technically know what level of recognition they all may even have in the first place. Aside from Yuffie and Reeve. I don't think it's that big a deal at all.
 
How many members of Deepground would they have to encounter before they'd have to twig that it is actually a big deal? Let's say they'd never met a SOLDIER before. How many First Classes would they need to encounter before they started to think that maybe they needed to understand what this whole SOLDIER thing was about. I don't believe that Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc... have no interest in knowing their enemy.

If they keep fighting Deepground - what are they called? Soviets? - then DoC as it currently stands is based on the ever-inceasingly shakey premise that Avalanche just don't talk to each other about the enemies they're fighting, the differences between the enemies they encounter, and what it could all mean - and a plot that depends on people not talking about stuff they would naturally talk about is bad writing. Cloud is very interested in the makonoids in the test tubes. He knows about SOLDIER. It would, surely, occur to him that in the Soviets Avalanche is encountering yet another form of mako/Jenova mutant.

It's just surprising to me that after Meteorfall, Avalanche - at least Barret and Reeve - didn't organise some kind of clean out/burn out of known Shinra labs. If they care about people's safety, why would they not do that? And don't tell me that Midgar's too unsafe for such an expedition. It was pretty unsafe climbing up the rubble of Sector 7. That's never stopped Barret.
 

Makoeyes987

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I mean, Meteorfall kinda did that for them already, remember? Midgar is mostly destroyed. Shinra is crushed and most people are either evacuated or killed in the cataclysmic destruction wrought by Meteor's gravity.

Why would they go through the unstable rubble of every corner of Midgar when the plates could all fall on top of them at any moment? All to find every possible specimen that may exist? After Meteorfall, Deepground was left completely cut off from the outside world. So who's gonna look for them?

The only SOLDIER who matters in FFVII is Sephiroth. He's the primary threat. Why would they be worried about every potential superfreak that may exist when the Meteor looming in the sky is their biggest priority? And they technically haven't met any Tsviet at all. Combat Simulation isn't the same thing as running into someone in reality.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
In the new-timeline scenario I'm picturing, FF7R ends near Meteorfall and we get at most a brief epilogue of events that occur after.

There will be no Geostigma because Sephiroth and Jenova will have met an ultimate end this time around. Deepground will not attack the world because they will already have been annihilated via a new series of events within FF7R.
The specifics are anyone’s guess but this is pretty much roughly how I imagine this thing could go if that’s what they’re going for

But like they've said over and over, the Remake and OG are meant to share the same continuity and canon. Those variances in adaption don't warrant the Remake to somehow get a brand new Compilation future exclusive to it.
I don’t know about over and over with quotes like this out there:
Tetsuya Nomura: Concerning Final Fantasy VII Remake, which is a title loaded with a lot of mystery for now, it will be different from the original Final Fantasy VII. If we make a compilation, these games will hardly have an overall coherence. It will be difficult because there is no more continuity between the Compilation and the Remake for the moment."
I was surprised to hear that. I realize [Tetsuya] Nomura-san said before that the remake is in a different continuity to the FF7 projects from the past, but I’m curious about how much of the compilation ideas you wanted to bring into the game. Hearing music from the compilation that never appeared in the original FF7 was a pleasant surprise.

Yoshinori Kitase: I can’t give you full details exactly how many times, where they’re referenced, or anything like that, but what I want to let you know is that all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too.
Yoshinori Kitase: “The story of the new Final Fantasy VII has just begun.”
Frontline Gaming reports "Nomura says that Final Fantasy VII Remake's release does not overwrite the original Final Fantasy VII. The original is the origin, and VII Remake is only possible because of the original."
I know it seems like splitting hairs but “canon” and “continuity”, while related and often used interchangeably, are not the same exact thing…now, I do agree about the differences not warranting a new future but when you have an ending that goes as far as this one did, you gotta at least consider the possibility that the post-game might look different…just so we’re clear though, the remake and OG can still be separate continuities that share most of the same events just as a film adapting a book doesn’t mean both works are connected by continuity even if the narrative is the same

Those "new stories" are going to fit in the same FFVII Series space that already exists. Just like Two Pasts does. That's a new story. But it still fits within the confines of the established FFVII Compilation. They're not redoing anything, they're working with what they got.
Thing is, giving remake a new future doesn’t have to mean it doesn’t fit the compilation if you consider OG and remake continuities similar but ultimately separate, it is a remake of the OG after all…as far as remakes and adaptations go, that’s pretty tame

Maybe, through the Remake and it's conclusion, Sephiroth's been deprived of his perfect perpetual Promised Land and now he has to go in search of a new one. Like, it's not hard to see or for the writers to close this loop once and for all within their established work. Eventually they're going to end it.
I mean it’s not outside of the realm of possibility, I just find it really underwhelming to go through all this trouble only for AC to still happen

Why would they undo the appearance of Geostigma and Sephiroth's Advent? It's iconic. It's immortalized. It's exceedingly popular. It's a work they're proud of. Creatively and business wise it's a winner that best exists as a classic. So why do it over for the Remake which exists within the Compilation?
I would say because it doesn’t actually need to happen again for it to maintain its place in FF7’s lore, it will always be the canon epilogue story to the OG no matter what happens in the remake...let me ask you this though, do you consider the Whispers to be retroactively part of the OG story if you consider the continuity to be the same as the remake?
 

Makoeyes987

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That Nomura quote is several years from before the Remake was actually started and a mistranslation and misunderstanding. He was talking about a making a hypothetical HD remaster collection of the Compilation titles in a Finnish interview, that got mistranslated and misunderstood. That's not applicable to where we are now.

And there's nothing ambiguous or mixed about Kitase's statement, which was made early on in the lead up to the release of the Remake. Nothing they're saying to interviewers is giving any indication they're thinking about redoing or scrapping the Compilation. There doesn't need to be a separate epilogue for the OG and Remake, let alone some new future to re-establish more material to perpetuate the FFVII cycle. That's just splitting hairs and the canon for no reason, if it's not going to go anywhere.

let me ask you this though, do you consider the Whispers to be retroactively part of the OG story if you consider the continuity to be the same as the remake?
Nah, I don't think so. I think they were created solely for the Remake. I don't think they were present until now.
 

Makoeyes987

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Yes but they're in the slums, and it's stated as extremely dangerous and not advised. Those people still living there are exceptions rather than the rule. Most of Midgar was evacuated because of unsafe levels of mako radiation and structural instability.
 
Climbing the wreckage of Sector 7, breaking into the Shinra Building, and taking on Hojo's lab full of mako-mutated monsters was also dangerous and not advised!! That's never stopped them before.
 

Makoeyes987

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Yeah, but that's obviously for a purpose :monster:

Like, why wouldn't they go back to trying to live their lives after Sephiroth's defeat? I don't imagine the party would want to just immediately keep fighting random Shinra remnants when they actually have lives to go back to and they've earned themselves some sort of break.
 
Fighting monsters and keeping people safe IS Cloud's life. This seems like the kind of job he would be 110% up for doing. Especially if Reeve paid him. One of the reasons he enjoys running the delivery service is because it takes him out into dangerous places where he can battle monsters, as well as helping people. And you know Barret gets a huge kick out of fighting too. Tifa would secretly enjoy it as well.
 

Makoeyes987

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I mean, maybe? I don't know about Cloud doing delivery work just for the chance to fight, but he likes helping people and being able to do something.

I don't see that about Tifa though. Going into battle to fight Shinra monsters doesn't seem like a career she'd like to devout her life to, especially if she wanted to start a family. Barret's 50/50, but he's more interested in helping rebuild Corel, not dig around in the ruins of a rotting pizza.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
Nothing they're saying to interviewers is giving any indication they're thinking about redoing or scrapping the Compilation.
Well that’s good because that’s not what I’m saying either lol I just don’t see why changing the future of the remake would have any effect on the OG, because…

Nah, I don't think so. I think they were created solely for the Remake. I don't think they were present until now.
…of this, if we assume that the OG and the remake are the same continuity, why wouldn’t we retroactively consider the Whispers as part of the OG story? That’s the difference between canon and continuity here, “canon” is the lore of the universe that the creators deem relevant and “continuity” is the extent of the consistency in the story portrayed between installments
 
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