Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[NikolaiBroketheZoom]

They already retconned LO's "Sephiroth jumped in" version of the event so they've definitely learned from that. What I'm wondering is which version of Zack's death they'll go for.

I don't know how I feel about Zack's death in CC. I know they were just underlining the importance of Zack and Cloud's bond and showing a parallel between Zack and Angeal passing down the Buster Sword, but I also think there's a lot to say for the very sudden, quiet death Zack suffered in the OG -- I think that portrayal would have had a better chance of completely breaking Cloud's mind.

If I remember correctly, Cloud's first real lucid moment is after the Shinra guards have already killed Zack and abandoned them both on the cliff over Midgar. So Cloud, finally with some semblance of awareness of what's going on, remembers that his hometown has been burned down, his body probably feels fuckin weird because people, guys especially, change a lot between the ages of 16 and 21 and he did it all in a mako tank, and he realizes that his best friend was gunned down and he couldn't do shit to stop it. In CC Zack gets gunned down by an army but in the OG, all it took in the end was a couple flunkies to finish the job. I think that's a lot more tragic. And the implication from the OG that Aerith never knew and just sort of dealt with it makes it even more tragic.

I still want an option to tell Zack's parents about their son, though.

 

[Tashasaurous]

They already retconned LO's "Sephiroth jumped in" version of the event so they've definitely learned from that. What I'm wondering is which version of Zack's death they'll go for.

I don't know how I feel about Zack's death in CC. I know they were just underlining the importance of Zack and Cloud's bond and showing a parallel between Zack and Angeal passing down the Buster Sword, but I also think there's a lot to say for the very sudden, quiet death Zack suffered in the OG -- I think that portrayal would have had a better chance of completely breaking Cloud's mind.

If I remember correctly, Cloud's first real lucid moment is after the Shinra guards have already killed Zack and abandoned them both on the cliff over Midgar. So Cloud, finally with some semblance of awareness of what's going on, remembers that his hometown has been burned down, his body probably feels fuckin weird because people, guys especially, change a lot between the ages of 16 and 21 and he did it all in a mako tank, and he realizes that his best friend was gunned down and he couldn't do shit to stop it. In CC Zack gets gunned down by an army but in the OG, all it took in the end was a couple flunkies to finish the job. I think that's a lot more tragic. And the implication from the OG that Aerith never knew and just sort of dealt with it makes it even more tragic.

I still want an option to tell Zack's parents about their son, though.

Personally, I think the CC version of Zack's death makes more sense, considering how SOLDIER is strong in strength. Still tragic by the way. I practically cried at the scene, tears literally falling.

I think the reason why Zack's parents haven't been told of Zack's death is because, after he regained his real memories, Cloud didn't have the heart to break the tragic news as he was still recovering from his own devastation of both Zack's death and Aerith's murder by the hands of Sephiroth.

I wanna see the animated facial expressions of Reno's reactions of seeing Veld and the BC Turks in the Epilogue of Before Crisis if they EVER do a remake of the mobile game.

 

[Channy]

Well when you visit Gongaga, Aerith is still alive and Cloud hasn't really reclaimed his real memories by then. So when you see Zacks parents, I don't think he's 100% sure himself.

 

[Starling]

They already retconned LO's "Sephiroth jumped in" version of the event so they've definitely learned from that. What I'm wondering is which version of Zack's death they'll go for.

I don't know how I feel about Zack's death in CC. I know they were just underlining the importance of Zack and Cloud's bond and showing a parallel between Zack and Angeal passing down the Buster Sword, but I also think there's a lot to say for the very sudden, quiet death Zack suffered in the OG -- I think that portrayal would have had a better chance of completely breaking Cloud's mind.

If I remember correctly, Cloud's first real lucid moment is after the Shinra guards have already killed Zack and abandoned them both on the cliff over Midgar. So Cloud, finally with some semblance of awareness of what's going on, remembers that his hometown has been burned down, his body probably feels fuckin weird because people, guys especially, change a lot between the ages of 16 and 21 and he did it all in a mako tank, and he realizes that his best friend was gunned down and he couldn't do shit to stop it. In CC Zack gets gunned down by an army but in the OG, all it took in the end was a couple flunkies to finish the job. I think that's a lot more tragic. And the implication from the OG that Aerith never knew and just sort of dealt with it makes it even more tragic.

I still want an option to tell Zack's parents about their son, though.

The OG version feels like it kicks you in the stomach with a silent display of how awful the world can be. I recall the guards leaving Cloud as is, simply because they figured he'd die on his own in a few hours. Somehow, that seems crueler than wanting to kill him anyway. Cloud having to get up and keep going after Zack dies without getting to talk to him first has a harshness I appreciate from the execution of that scene.

In CC, we get the hopelessness of Zack trying to fight his way through all of the people Shinra sent to kill him, only to go down just before he could finish the last 3. Then, we get a shot of him just lying there all bloody, struggling to keep his breath even and unable to get up. I can deal with Zack getting the chance to talk to Cloud before dying, as they kept what he said relatively short and he did seem to have some trouble getting it all out. However, I think some of what they did with that version was a bit excessive. I'd say my favorite parts of that version is how we get to see Zack putting Cloud somewhere relatively safe, saying he'll be back and we see Cloud trying to reach out, showing he wasn't completely out of it by then. Then there's how Zack tries to hug Cloud when he says he's gonna live. There's also how Cloud doesn't seem to register that Zack is dying until he's dead, as he's still not all there.

If they're going to do something different than how they did it in the OG, I'd settle for some kind of compromise between the two, assuming they find a way to put together the better parts of both. The parts I liked less about the CC version aren't really as relevant to the OG so they probably wouldn't be included anyway.

 

[Flare]

I think in CC, it's a bit more realistic, as Zack was one hell of a strong SOLDIER member, so Shinra sending the whole army after him sounds believable. I mean Zack took down Sephiroth, who was thought to be the strongest; I would believe if Sephiroth were in Zack's place, Shinra would send a whole army after him too.
And Zack doing a damn good job of fighting through makes sense too, but even he couldn't defeat an entire army.
I think he was already dead before he fell over from the three guys anyway. All that he had left was his strength of will, dragging his sword and still fighting, his mind stuck on Aerith, but his body was already past it's limit. He wouldn't have lived even if those guys didn't shoot him in the end, I think.
Somehow, I think that makes it all the more sad.

I do agree that in the OG, Zack's death is so anticlimatic that it's quite sad and depressing, but you also didn't know much of him then either, so it didn't impact you. Imagine if, after playing through CC, Zack in the end gets killed by 3 infantrymen.
That would be so out of place, no one would think that believable when you can wipe out 1,000 of them on a certain mission.

 

[Starling]

Considering the OG version had Zack running away from gunfire and fighting stuff offscreen before he got shot down and there's a gap between the truck scene and one where he dies, there's a good chance some variation of dealing with way more than 3 MPs happened even in the OG. I don't really have a problem with that aspect of the CC version, considering that makes more sense to me too. It's just that the OG didn't make it all grand and heroic.

 

[Roger]

I mean Zack took down Sephiroth,

No he didn't. At all.

 

[Wimbly]

They already retconned LO's "Sephiroth jumped in" version of the event so they've definitely learned from that. What I'm wondering is which version of Zack's death they'll go for.

I don't know how I feel about Zack's death in CC. I know they were just underlining the importance of Zack and Cloud's bond and showing a parallel between Zack and Angeal passing down the Buster Sword, but I also think there's a lot to say for the very sudden, quiet death Zack suffered in the OG -- I think that portrayal would have had a better chance of completely breaking Cloud's mind.

If I remember correctly, Cloud's first real lucid moment is after the Shinra guards have already killed Zack and abandoned them both on the cliff over Midgar. So Cloud, finally with some semblance of awareness of what's going on, remembers that his hometown has been burned down, his body probably feels fuckin weird because people, guys especially, change a lot between the ages of 16 and 21 and he did it all in a mako tank, and he realizes that his best friend was gunned down and he couldn't do shit to stop it. In CC Zack gets gunned down by an army but in the OG, all it took in the end was a couple flunkies to finish the job. I think that's a lot more tragic. And the implication from the OG that Aerith never knew and just sort of dealt with it makes it even more tragic.

I still want an option to tell Zack's parents about their son, though.

I'm definitely for the OG version. Cloud was never actually seen as truly lucid until he meets Tifa at the train station. He does 'wake up' next to Zack and seems to have a seizure whilst holding his head in severe pain. I still don't think he has registered anything at that point, due to the state he is still in when he meets Tifa.

Plus I always got the feeling from the OG that Zack wasn't all that powerful. Obviously thats not the case in CC. In the OG he goes in to face Sephiroth and literally flies out of the Jenova room seconds later. Whereas Cloud is able to successfully wound Sephiroth twice. I think its important to have that clear distinction between the characters, Cloud being somehow inherently more powerful than Zack. Picking Sephiroth up after being impaled and throwing him in into the lifestream makes this a fact surely not? Plus the quick death scene is a lot more hard hitting as has been said by others.

 

[Theozilla]

It's just that the OG didn't make it all grand and heroic.

Well, that's because of the narrative placement/framing of the scenes. If CC played the scene out just as curtly as it did in the OG that would make for a very unsatisfying ending to a game (even one with a forgone conclusions). Even other games with a sad endings (e.g. Shadow of the Colossus, Mother 3, Halo: Reach) have a sense of grandness to their endings. It wouldn't be a satisfying denouement narratively otherwise.

One way I could see them doing the scene in the remake (since I doubt they don't want to be lazy and just reuse the CC ending again) is having the scene portrayed through a first person perspective of Cloud. They could do a lot with that type of depiction, having the audio and images fade in and out and/or glitch to replicate Cloud's messed up senses.

 

[Wimbly]

I didn't like how CC made it a conscious decision by Cloud to be Zack's 'living legacy'. In the OG Cloud is simply a victim of time and unforeseen occurrence. Its Jenova melding together Clouds personality, not Cloud deciding to live for his lost comrade by living Zack's dream. I think it detracts from the overall feeling of the original really. Both Cloud and the player were supposed to have absolutely no inclination, at all, that Zack existed and if we go by CC's ending that goes out the window.

Cloud has more or less recovered and is fully aware of who it is lying in front of him. He then repeats Zack's words 'I'm your living legacy'.. Then later at the station (OG) he's back to being fairly catatonic. Doesn't fit with the OG for me. Very sad though

But I suppose if its canon that CC was supposed to retcon some 'minor' plot points of the OG then my opinion is invalid!

 

[Theozilla]

I didn't like how CC made it a conscious decision by Cloud to be Zack's 'living legacy'. In the OG Cloud is simply a victim of time and unforeseen occurrence. Its Jenova melding together Clouds personality, not Cloud deciding to live for his lost comrade by living Zack's dream. I think it detracts from the overall feeling of the original really. Both Cloud and the player were supposed to have absolutely no inclination, at all, that Zack existed and if we go by CC's ending that goes out the window.

Cloud has more or less recovered and is fully aware of who it is lying in front of him. He then repeats Zack's words 'I'm your living legacy'.. Then later at the station (OG) he's back to being fairly catatonic. Doesn't fit with the OG for me. Very sad though

But I suppose if its canon that CC was supposed to retcon some 'minor' plot points of the OG then my opinion is invalid!

I don't think Cloud declaring that he'll be Zack's living legacy at the end of CC but then forgetting about it by the time he gets to the train station really contradicts anything. IRCC the beginning of AC/C has Cloud reminiscing about his perceived failure to live up to Zack's legacy (because he forgot about Zack during the OG).

 

[Roger]

I don't think Cloud declaring that he'll be Zack's living legacy at the end of CC but then forgetting about it by the time he gets to the train station really contradicts anything. IRCC the beginning of AC/C has Cloud reminiscing about his perceived failure to live up to Zack's legacy (because he forgot about Zack during the OG).

He was dying in ACC, thus not living out even one life, let alone two. He didn't say anything about forgetting Zack being what he felt guilty about at that moment.

 

[Wimbly]

I still don't think it washes that Cloud saw Zack then forgot about him during the time it took him to get to the station. The OG had him unaware of everything. The affects of the mako poisoning/Jenova cells persisted until he was in Tifa's presence. She is the catalyst that Jenova used to reform Clouds mind. Up to that point he is almost brain dead, like when he falls into the lifestream and is in a wheel chair. The CC ending kinda scraps that because of Clouds compos mentis state whilst with Zack.

I do feel the original telling of Zack's death is the best. Its shocking and brutal, making it a lot more tragic IMO. I saw that first so I'm definitely biased though.

 

[Theozilla]

I still don't think it washes that Cloud saw Zack then forgot about him during the time it took him to get to the station. The OG had him unaware of everything. The affects of the mako poisoning/Jenova cells persisted until he was in Tifa's presence. She is the catalyst that Jenova used to reform Clouds mind. Up to that point he is almost brain dead, like when he falls into the lifestream and is in a wheel chair. The CC ending kinda scraps that because of Clouds compos mentis state whilst with Zack.

I do feel the original telling of Zack's death is the best. Its shocking and brutal, making it a lot more tragic IMO. I saw that first so I'm definitely biased though.

But the OG didn't have him unaware of everything. In the OG he had to have some degree of awareness to decide to crawl over to Zack's body, pick up the sword, and do the "despairing to heavens" action/movement in response to Zack's death. There may have not been any final words between the two in the OG but Cloud was at least definitely originally aware of Zack's death and then had to forget it by the time he came into contact with Tifa. So IMO it's not much of a stretch that Cloud, in addition to forgetting that Zack died in front of him, would also forget his final CC conversation with him as well.

 

[Wimbly]

I still don't think it washes that Cloud saw Zack then forgot about him during the time it took him to get to the station. The OG had him unaware of everything. The affects of the mako poisoning/Jenova cells persisted until he was in Tifa's presence. She is the catalyst that Jenova used to reform Clouds mind. Up to that point he is almost brain dead, like when he falls into the lifestream and is in a wheel chair. The CC ending kinda scraps that because of Clouds compos mentis state whilst with Zack.

I do feel the original telling of Zack's death is the best. Its shocking and brutal, making it a lot more tragic IMO. I saw that first so I'm definitely biased though.

But the OG didn't have him unaware of everything. In the OG he had to have some degree of awareness to decide to crawl over to Zack's body, pick up the sword, and do the "despairing to heavens" action/movement in response to Zack's death. There may have not been any final words between the two in the OG but Cloud was at least definitely originally aware of Zack's death and then had to forget it by the time he came into contact with Tifa. So IMO it's not much of a stretch that Cloud, in addition to forgetting that Zack died in front of him, would also forget his final CC conversation with him as well.

All very good points to be fair. Your right, there must have been some semblance of awareness. It could be interpreted as him crawling towards the nearest thing in his immediate vision. He doesn't seem to pay much attention to the corpse next him though.

I hope they strike some sort of middle ground really. That makes the most sense.

 

[Flare]

I mean Zack took down Sephiroth,

No he didn't. At all.

Should I edit that to be he beat the crap out of Sephiroth before he was thrown out? At least when you play the game, you fight him in 3(?) different battles and do a pretty good job at fighting him.
I consider it beating him because you do in those battles I suppose, regardless of the fact that the story still makes Zack thrown out of the Jenova chamber.
Not to mention, isn't it canon that Genesis and Sephiroth are close in strength, if not equal?
Zack beat Genny, so...... still makes him freakishly strong.

 

[Flare]

And I like the first-person POV for Cloud during Zack's death... that would be interesting.

 

[Theozilla]

It could be interpreted as him crawling towards the nearest thing in his immediate vision. He doesn't seem to pay much attention to the corpse next him though.

Not really? As blocky as the old models are, the flashback scene makes it clear that Cloud is directly reacting to Zack's dead body. First they have him crawl to Zack's body, then they have him pick up the Buster Sword look at it, the have Cloud look back at Zack's body, and then they have him do the despair to the heavens motion. That's all cinematic language indicating that Cloud is wholly aware that Zack just died.

The main difference between the OG and CC scenes isn't Cloud being aware of Zack's death but whether or not they had a final conversation before Zack died. But both versions depict Cloud being aware that Zack died.

Furthermore Cloud also had to be aware enough to be able to walk all the way to Midgar (while carrying/dragging the Buster Sword as well).

 

[55-]

I do feel the original telling of Zack's death is the best. Its shocking and brutal, making it a lot more tragic IMO. I saw that first so I'm definitely biased though.

I have noticed actually that whichever version people saw first tends to be the one that they're most attached to. That's really interesting to me. I wonder how I would have felt if I had played Crisis Core first.

I'm on team OG.

CC was the one thing that made me cry more than any piece of media has ever made me cry (for complex reasons that would demand their own post). I found a lot about Zack's CC death absolutely brilliant, the way you can feel him breaking down, falling apart. It was a new sort of experience for me personally, seeing someone really use the personal connection you feel with the character you're playing as in a video game in that way. The way the HUD starts to fall apart and you find it more and more physically difficult to fight. You can feel the life leaving him and it forces you to keep fighting against this death you know is unavoidable (assuming you played FFVII first).

I think this all was definitely worth something to me, and I'm glad they did it the way they did, but I have a different sort of respect for OG's portrayal that I think is absolutely crucial to that game.

I think a lot about Sakaguchi's explanation for why Aeris's death was depicted the way it was, and how that made her death really memorable and painful for so many people. I can never find a quote on this when I need to, but he says something about death being sudden and leaving you with a feeling of emptiness. Contrast that with the melodramatic deaths you'd normally see in video games, anime, or other types of big, surrealistic, fantasy/sci-fi stuff. The kind that actually, that they poke fun at in OG with Cait Sith's "death" in the Temple of the Ancients, just to slap you in the face with Aeris's death soon after.

Video games are all about making people seem a lot stronger and a lot more important than we are. It's deeply painful and terrifying to be faced with our own insignificance. That's why we love escapist media where we can watch, or even roleplay as, characters that appear human but are operating on an unrealistically high level of physical or intellectual power (which isn't to say we don't also love vulnerability and relatability, and that's where characters like Cloud come from - “Just when you thought he was cool, he'd do some damn fool thing. Then when you thought he was smart, he'd show how stupid he was.”).

Anyway, even though Zack and Aeris's deaths in the OG both contradict how the universe depicts human strength on the battlefield, I still really appreciate it on its own. This is a game where in battle people can take tons of bullets and giant sword wounds and still fight, but in the story they are much more realistically fragile. I think that's far more painful to watch on a really deeply felt level than the over-the-top hero's death Zack was given in Crisis Core. That melodrama may have made me cry harder, but it doesn't linger in the same way.

FFVII intentionally tried to depict death in a different, and more personally felt way, than other pieces of culture, and it's really well regarded for that. Even though that's related more to Aeris's death and I would be really surprised if they changed her's, I think that Zack's death was definitely in line with everything they were trying to do. It's small and it's sad, it's quiet and fast, and he's forgotten and left behind. There's no deathbed dialogue. They actually continue shooting Zack after he's down just to really make sure he's dead. It's very hard to watch.

I think Crisis Core's Zack death is valuable and interesting in it's own way, but I hope it stays in CC because it ain't FFVII.

 

[Theozilla]

Anyway, even though Zack and Aeris's deaths in the OG both contradict how the universe depicts human strength on the battlefield, I still really appreciate it on its own. This is a game where in battle people can take tons of bullets and giant sword wounds and still fight, but in the story they are much more realistically fragile. I think that's far more painful to watch on a really deeply felt level than the over-the-top hero's death Zack was given in Crisis Core. That melodrama may have made me cry harder, but it doesn't linger in the same way.

I think Zack's death has more contradiction to it than Aerith's, even beyond the suspension of disbelief required for standard story-gameplay-segregation (as Aerith has the the excuse of being a Squishy Wizard type character). Zack in both games is built up has having the physical power of a 1st class Soldier (even more so in CC), Zack's death in the OG just clashes more with his pre-established attributes than Aerith's does (who comparatively didn't have much physical power/skills).

I think Crisis Core's Zack death is valuable and interesting in it's own way, but I hope it stays in CC because it ain't FFVII.

Isn't that unlikely to expect though? The CC death has been used as the "official" version since ACC. Also, Zack is much more popular now than he was during the OG release, like didn't he beat out Cloud in the most recent character popularity poll for male FF characters?

 

[Roger]

I mean Zack took down Sephiroth,

No he didn't. At all.

Should I edit that to be he beat the crap out of Sephiroth before he was thrown out? At least when you play the game, you fight him in 3(?) different battles and do a pretty good job at fighting him.
I consider it beating him because you do in those battles I suppose, regardless of the fact that the story still makes Zack thrown out of the Jenova chamber.
Not to mention, isn't it canon that Genesis and Sephiroth are close in strength, if not equal?
Zack beat Genny, so...... still makes him freakishly strong.

Zack beat Genesis hands down, several times over, however Sephiroth beat the crap out of Zack way, way more then vice versa.

Also I finished Crisis Core first but I definitely prefer the OG too Zack surviving that soldier unloading his clip in his face at point blank range and still being more able to speak and lift the Buster Sword more then Cloud. And basically instructing him on what to do rather then Cloud's issues in the game being about his own insecurities.

 

[Theozilla]

And basically instructing him on what to do rather then Cloud's issues in the game being about his own insecurities.

But Zack's "instruction" doesn't really make a difference regardless of the version because Cloud will forget about Zack once he gets to Midgar (Zack's instructions for Cloud to be his living legacy certainly didn't mean for Cloud to forget about his entire existence). And since Cloud forgets about Zack the game is still about Cloud's own insecurities.

 

[Roger]

And basically instructing him on what to do rather then Cloud's issues in the game being about his own insecurities.

But Zack's "instruction" doesn't really make a difference regardless of the version because Cloud will forget about Zack once he gets to Midgar (Zack's instructions for Cloud to be his living legacy certainly didn't mean for Cloud to forget about his entire existence). And since Cloud forgets about Zack the game is still about Cloud's own insecurities.

You think the writers inteded it to be a coincidence that the guy that Zack told must live out both their lives and be his living legacy started impersonating him in the immeadiate aftermath?

Anyway, Cloud was still coming down from Mako Poisoning but he wasn't an empty canvas by the time he arrived in Sector 7, he'd have no reason to react to Tifa the way he did if he was. He remembered Zack and stories he told Cloud, Cloud replaced Zack in his memories there and then. Cloud only forgot stuff that was inconvenient to the ruse he put on for Tifa, down to the sentence, his recalling of the conversation he had with his mother shows this. (hence why he has no reason to have any difficulty remembering Genesis at any point)

 

[55-]

I think Zack's death has more contradiction to it than Aerith's, even beyond the suspension of disbelief required for standard story-gameplay-segregation (as Aerith has the the excuse of being a Squishy Wizard type character). Zack in both games is built up has having the physical power of a 1st class Soldier (even more so in CC), Zack's death in the OG just clashes more with his pre-established attributes than Aerith's does (who comparatively didn't have much physical power/skills).

It doesn't matter how powerful someone is, enough gunshot wounds can still take down any dude with a sword.
It contradicts what we see in gameplay, where actually no one can ever die unless they all get K.O.'d at once. They can withstand being lit on fire, dragon laser breath, the force of the sun exploding on top of them. In gameplay, everyone is OG video game characters, but in the story they are much more vulnerable. And I think that's cool! Even though it's contradictory, it makes for both emotionally effective story realism, and fun gameplay.
You can level Aeris up to level 99 and being impaled with an 8 ft long sword is still gonna kill her because she's still human.

Isn't that unlikely to expect though? The CC death has been used as the "official" version since ACC. Also, Zack is much more popular now than he was during the OG release, like didn't he beat out Cloud in the most recent character popularity poll for male FF characters?

Unlikely, yes. But I wasn't making an argument for the way I expect them to handle Zacks death, I was making a statement about how I wish they would handle it. This thread's about hopes, not expectations.
Also I don't see what popularity has anything to do with anything? I don't want Zack's death to be brutal because I hate Zack. I love him. I love him a whole lot more than Cloud.
For me, liking the depiction of Zack's death in FFVII more than CC has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about Zack. It has to do with a love I have for ambitious, unconventional storytelling. It was new and different and personal and real in a way that didn't need deathbed dialogue or sad music to make me deeply, profoundly sad. That's the experience I would want newcomers to have with the game.

 

[Theozilla]

You think the writers inteded it to be a coincidence that the guy that Zack told must live out both their lives and be his living legacy started impersonating him in the immeadiate aftermath?

Of course it is not a coincidence, it is there to established a thematic connection. But the CC ending still doesn't change/retcon the fact that Cloud still forgets about Zack's existence. Cloud's memory's loss is still caused by the Mako poisoning and the Jenova cells (+trauma). Zack's final conversation just creates thematic continuity, it is not what causes Cloud's memory problems nor erases his issues of insecurity.