Does anyone think the Zack's death scene deserves its own thread? Also, sorry for the essay length reply.
I didn't like how CC made it a conscious decision by Cloud to be Zack's 'living legacy'. In the OG Cloud is simply a victim of time and unforeseen occurrence. Its Jenova melding together Clouds personality, not Cloud deciding to live for his lost comrade by living Zack's dream. I think it detracts from the overall feeling of the original really. Both Cloud and the player were supposed to have absolutely no inclination, at all, that Zack existed and if we go by CC's ending that goes out the window.
Cloud has more or less recovered and is fully aware of who it is lying in front of him. He then repeats Zack's words 'I'm your living legacy'.. Then later at the station (OG) he's back to being fairly catatonic. Doesn't fit with the OG for me. Very sad though
Anyway, I feel like people underestimate how badly trauma can mess someone up on its own. You see, the human mind has various ways to attempt to preserve a functional mental state. Reluctance to admit that you're wrong or to dwell on your mistakes, for example, are meant to preserve a positive or at least not too negative self-image, which is important for a healthy state of mind. Likewise, there are various ways in which the human mind deals with stress in order to keep going, as too much stress can seriously do a number on someone's health.
When faced with too much at once, like say Sephiroth burning down your hometown, killing everyone you know except for Zack and whoever Cloud knows that still works in Shinra, 5 years of whatever the hell Hojo did plus resulting mako poisoning and then Zack dying is the kind of thing that a mind would block out because it's just too much to deal with. So of course, that leads to repressing a lot of memories in order to avoid all that trauma. The Nibelheim incident was too important to forget but taking Zack's perspective was somewhat safer and lined up with having been in SOLDIER. It also allowed Zack's role in the incident to be shown without having to acknowledge the existence of someone whose death was also being repressed. Really, all the Jenova cells contributed were a few memories Cloud has no business having, when you compare the flashback scenes with the CC versions. Basically, it's a lot of maladaptive coping, including some dissociation. It's actually pretty in line with the list of symptoms for PTSD or C-PTSD. Cloud also seems to have a guilt complex.
Well, that's because of the narrative placement/framing of the scenes. If CC played the scene out just as curtly as it did in the OG that would make for a very unsatisfying ending to a game (even one with a forgone conclusions). Even other games with a sad endings (e.g. Shadow of the Colossus, Mother 3, Halo: Reach) have a sense of grandness to their endings. It wouldn't be a satisfying denouement narratively otherwise.
I understand the narrative purpose of making the CC version of Zack's death somewhat heroic despite the tragedy of it all. I agree that a game focused on him would need to do something to take the player's attachment to him over all those hours of playing pay off with a lengthier version of his death that involves him more. However, I also think that wouldn't fit with the narrative of the OG.
In the OG, Zack tries to haul Cloud to safety, Shinra catches up to him, he tries to fight them off, 3 corner him on the cliff and he gets shot many, many times to make extra sure he doesn't get back up. Then, one of them turns to Cloud, asks what to do about him and is told to just leave him. After that, Cloud drags himself over to Zack's body, grabs the sword and screams to the sky. With the context of the situation, it's pretty safe to say Cloud was screaming in grief over Zack's death, as is also seen in the CC version.
In CC, they get shot at while in the truck, Zack gets the driver to pull over and stashes Cloud out of sight, telling him he'll be back soon. At this point, Cloud stirs, trying to reach out to Zack as he walks away. Then, we get Zack facing off a lot of Shinra troops, with a look on his face that tells me he probably knew he wasn't going survive but wanting to try anyway. As the fight progresses, the gameplay reflects how he's getting worn down, essentially having his life flashing before his eyes with all those DMW scenes. Aerith's gasp is definitely related to Zack dying, but since he isn't dead yet, there's a good chance she only sensed some vague trouble without really knowing the details. We're then treated to a wonderful show of Zack lying in the rain surrounded by puddles of blood, before Cloud drags himself to him. Zack says what he wants to say to Cloud, who only seems to be capable of repeating what Zack says and looking worried. Then, Zack dies and Cloud seems to realize what just happened, screaming in grief. After some more flashbacks about Zack and Cloud, we see Cloud get up, make a promise to Zack and head off to Midgar. For some reason, they wanted to throw in Zack's dying dream of being carried off by Angeal into the lifetream. Obviously, that part was strictly Zack's perspective so it has no reason to end up in the remake.
I hope they strike some sort of middle ground really. That makes the most sense.
I think my preferred compromise of the two would be that we get the full truck scene, shots are fired and Zack tells the driver to pull over. Zack hastily tries to find a safe place to stash Cloud, fights a bunch of Shinra troops and ends up shot up by the last 3 on the cliff. Then, they notice Cloud nearby, decide not to bother killing him and leave. Zack would already be dead when Cloud drags himself over to the body like in the OG and then screams with grief. I'd miss some parts of the CC version that would be left out in this case but for the remake, the OG version better fits the narrative.
Plus I always got the feeling from the OG that Zack wasn't all that powerful. Obviously thats not the case in CC. In the OG he goes in to face Sephiroth and literally flies out of the Jenova room seconds later. Whereas Cloud is able to successfully wound Sephiroth twice. I think its important to have that clear distinction between the characters, Cloud being somehow inherently more powerful than Zack. Picking Sephiroth up after being impaled and throwing him in into the lifestream makes this a fact surely not? Plus the quick death scene is a lot more hard hitting as has been said by others.
Zack getting beaten so easily by Sephiroth doesn't mean he's weak. Sephiroth is obscenely powerful and in a rank of his own. Zack is a SOLDIER First Class so he's definitely supposed to be stronger than we get to see in the OG. He basically just got hit with the Whorf effect and death by origin story.
I have noticed actually that whichever version people saw first tends to be the one that they're most attached to. That's really interesting to me. I wonder how I would have felt if I had played Crisis Core first.
I think nostalgia has something to do with it, like which game in a franchise you're most emotionally attached to. You summed everything else in your post quite nicely.
I think Zack's death has more contradiction to it than Aerith's, even beyond the suspension of disbelief required for standard story-gameplay-segregation (as Aerith has the the excuse of being a Squishy Wizard type character). Zack in both games is built up has having the physical power of a 1st class Soldier (even more so in CC), Zack's death in the OG just clashes more with his pre-established attributes than Aerith's does (who comparatively didn't have much physical power/skills).
Not necessarily. Considering all those years spend in Hojo's lab followed by being on the run and taking care of a catatonic friend, there's a good chance Zack was far from at his best when he died. It doesn't matter how strong he usually is, no one can go on like that forever.
It doesn't matter how powerful someone is, enough gunshot wounds can still take down any dude with a sword.
It contradicts what we see in gameplay, where actually no one can ever die unless they all get K.O.'d at once. They can withstand being lit on fire, dragon laser breath, the force of the sun exploding on top of them. In gameplay, everyone is OG video game characters, but in the story they are much more vulnerable. And I think that's cool! Even though it's contradictory, it makes for both emotionally effective story realism, and fun gameplay.
You can level Aeris up to level 99 and being impaled with an 8 ft long sword is still gonna kill her because she's still human.
You reminded me of
