Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

Status
Not open for further replies.

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I would say there are several parts in the Famitsu/Dengeki interviews that indicates an intent to distance themselves from the compilation (at the very least, as it is/in the form it is right now).

The choice to not use a sub-title in order to not get the remake confused with a compilation product, shows clearly that this game is its own beast, and the content of the game will stand on its own.

Well, the subtitle would also tend to indicate that it's like the Compilation in that it's something related to the original game, and not just a retelling of the original game. Whereas some titles like Wild Arms have used subtitles like "Alter-Code F" for their OG remakes, it's honestly just confusing -- not to mention in the case of FFVII, the "FFVII: Something" format is used for supplementary content.

The second part is the answer the give to the direct question about whether it will tie in to the compilation (Will the story be adjusted to [things like/among other things] fit (literally “be made to match up with”) with the times, or in connection with the compilation?), which goes as follows :

Nomura :
”Apart from delving even deeper into the episodes [of the game], we’re preparing tricks/devices/gimmicks (Author’s note : there was no single word to properly capture the essence of this word) among other things. After all, isn’t it the case that the people who played the original game, the important parts included, knows the story from beginning to end? We’re thinking we want those people as well to be able to get (literally “taste”) surprised [by the story] once again.”
Yoshinori Kitase :
”We don’t want to do a remake that ends with [just] tracing [people’s] nostalgia. We want to make fans of the original excited (literally : “dokidoki”, the sound of a racing heart in Japanese) again. We’re re-adjusting the story putting those [kind of] feelings into it.”

This answer deftly circumvents the very issue of tie-ins, despite that being a central part of the question, and very often in Japanese culture, this is indicative of a negative, or that whatever is going to happen is so different it might as well be a negative.

Also, as I said in another thread, the parts about changing things to surprise people already familiar with FFVII is equally true to the compilation products, meaning that even if they were to borrow from them, they're likely to change/retcon parts of that as well.

In their answers, they're talking about making changes and expansions that go beyond just what people know as nostalgia. As we've learned later, some of these expansions are things like enhancements to Cloud's Hallucinations, as well as expanding the interactions with Biggs, Wedge, & Jessie. Even those don't really change anything for or against the Compilation in any way -- and they're going to be the main bulk of what changes we see in the game, because the Compilation is mostly a tertiary connection with most everything. On the other side of things, most everyone knew the ending of Crisis Core, but that didn't prevent it from being really excellently emotionally constructed because of, or even despite that.

Those sorts of FFVII-centric changes and things are more prominent, and even things like Barret's design technically conflicts with the ACC-version of his character shown in the Crater flashback that more closely matches the OG-version's design. Strictly speaking though, I wouldn't call that type of visual redesign a retcon either, because it's a visual representation and isn't anything that really undoes anything to the story as it's been presented in FFVII and the Compilation.

By the same token, neither does adding in extra floors on the ShinRa HQ Building to encompass what we've seen in Crisis Core just to make their portrayal of things consistent.

In fact, we know that Barret's battle with Cloud can't be footage from when Cloud's getting attacked my MPs before jumping on the train -- because Cloud is alone there, and the scenery in combat is different. The surroundings from Cloud & Barret's battle from the trailer actually bears a strong resemblance the front of the Shinra HQ in Crisis Core with the Fountain & Buildings which looks notably different from how it's portrayed in the OG, but if you choose to break in rather than take the stairs... you have to fight MPs just like they're doing here.

While that's speculation, it makes a good case that the Compilation's content is at least being looked at and referred to for reference when making the Remake, rather than only building from the ground up with just the OG in mind and rebooting or retconning anything else.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of the additions made to FFVII's history in the compilation only make sense in the context of the specific compilation games.

Adding Genesis, or references to Genesis (or Angeal for instance) adds nothing of value to FFVII's plot, unless you're going to add significant parts of Crisis Core itself, but adding significant parts of Crisis Core wouldn't make sense with the flow of the story of the original at all (I mean, who'd be telling Zack's story in the context of the original game? Everybody who could really have told it to any substantial degree are already dead)

I'd disagree with this entirely.

By adding references to that that you CAN come by, but aren't required to -- i.e. just like adding the SOLDIER floors in the HQ Building, you're expanding on the world that you're presenting. You're giving the player clues to go off and explore other locations like Banora or Modeoheim as sidequests to get a deeper understanding of the history of what's happened around you, and not JUST following your current linear trajectory.

While Zack isn't an active character in FFVII, his legacy and presence are undeniably felt in the game -- especially when you go digging around in Cloud's head. Even the original game DOES actively retell his story via the ShinRa Manor flashback. Once Cloud knows who he truly is, things like those sorts of Angeal/Genesis/SOLDIER breadcrumbs and references could give an opportunity for players to go looking through more about Zack's past in order to understand how Cloud got from A to B, as well as potentially give Zack's parents some closure -- which is a glaring plot thread left open by both the OG and Crisis Core that's just ripe for expansion based on information from both the original game as well as Crisis Core.


FFVII has it's own story - it's own complete story no-less. It's a story that you can add tons to without even going into the compilation stuff - and while some compilation stuff can work within the context of the original narrative (like the compilation buster sword guard being underneath the original guard, and breaking apart upon the reveal of Cloud's past), many other parts of the compilation are not self-contained in that way.
They only make sense when they're fleshed out within the context of the product they appeared in like CC, or AC.
Adding them to the remake might serve as easter-eggs to fans of the compilation, but they also run the risk of distracting and frustrating new players or people unfamiliar with the less available compilation products (CC was only released for PSP after all).

Insofar as I can tell, there's been no indication by anyone that the Remake will somehow include non-self-contained references that aren't Easter Eggs. Doing something like that is just bad game design.

For example, if you were in the Shinra HQ and accessed a terminal that allowed browsing through the Turks' database, you could look through all the OG and BC characters' personnel profiles. The BC ones would all have various missing/inactive statuses, whereas the characters that you'd encounter would have more detailed profiles hinting that you'd run into them, and giving you a way to learn more about them. There isn't really a downside to doing that, because it doesn't require you to know anything about Before Crisis, but it also manages to acknowledge it while not lingering, because it's not a part of AVALANCHE & Co's story. It does help to up the believability of the size of Shinra's organization to something more believable as well, given the size/scope of what the Remake is presenting us, and how much of it you actively encounter during the story.


Finally, people change.
There is a reason that there have been great changes in tone and style throughout the compilation, and retcons as well. This is because teams change, people change, the times change, and the format changes.
The fact that changes have happened continually up until now should alert people to the possibility that things will change once again.
Simply put, if it happened once, why won't it happen again?
Saying, "well they put so much work into the compilation" is a non-starter, because you could just as easily have said that about the original game in reference to future changes made by the compilation, and they did that anyway. Besides, who're they?
Apart from Nojima being writer, the only product I know of in the compilation that actually has the same set-up as this remake more or less, is the team of AC, which happens after FFVII in either case.
In many ways, I'd see AC references as being more likely than CC references, especially seeing as how CC was a relatively minor game by virtue of only being released on PSP.

By "they" I mean everyone involved with revising the legacy of FFVII over the last 10+ years and working on the content for the Compilation. You're also working in the era where various medias' interconnected universes -- whether or not you follow them -- are more well known and tend to hold to continuities that are far and wide. Even if you don't know what something in it is, there's a Wikipedia link about it for you to go find out, because there are fans that do.

Given that Advent Children can't be directly referenced due to the fact that it takes place in the future, but Crisis Core can be because it took place in the recent past and also directly connects to Cloud's narrative, I don't see why you'd think that AC references are more likely than CC ones. Also, not to mention that mobile gaming is a much bigger market in Japan, and Zack is also an incredibly popular character in addition to being a component of FFVII's main story.




X :neo:
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Nomura :
”Apart from delving even deeper into the episodes [of the game], we’re preparing tricks/devices/gimmicks (Author’s note : there was no single word to properly capture the essence of this word) among other things. After all, isn’t it the case that the people who played the original game, the important parts included, knows the story from beginning to end? We’re thinking we want those people as well to be able to get (literally “taste”) surprised [by the story] once again.”
Yoshinori Kitase :
”We don’t want to do a remake that ends with [just] tracing [people’s] nostalgia. We want to make fans of the original excited (literally : “dokidoki”, the sound of a racing heart in Japanese) again. We’re re-adjusting the story putting those [kind of] feelings into it.”

This answer deftly circumvents the very issue of tie-ins, despite that being a central part of the question, and very often in Japanese culture, this is indicative of a negative, or that whatever is going to happen is so different it might as well be a negative.

I think that depends on your perspective but to me it sounds very much the opposite. Using words and phrases like "We don't want to do a remake that ends with just nostalgia.... We're readjusting the story...." makes it sound like they're adding to it, and giving more to the story so it's not just an aesthetic overhaul.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of the additions made to FFVII's history in the compilation only make sense in the context of the specific compilation games.
Adding Genesis, or references to Genesis (or Angeal for instance) adds nothing of value to FFVII's plot, unless you're going to add significant parts of Crisis Core itself, but adding significant parts of Crisis Core wouldn't make sense with the flow of the story of the original at all (I mean, who'd be telling Zack's story in the context of the original game? Everybody who could really have told it to any substantial degree are already dead)

FFVII has it's own story - it's own complete story no-less. It's a story that you can add tons to without even going into the compilation stuff - and while some compilation stuff can work within the context of the original narrative (like the compilation buster sword guard being underneath the original guard, and breaking apart upon the reveal of Cloud's past), many other parts of the compilation are not self-contained in that way.
They only make sense when they're fleshed out within the context of the product they appeared in like CC, or AC.
Adding them to the remake might serve as easter-eggs to fans of the compilation, but they also run the risk of distracting and frustrating new players or people unfamiliar with the less available compilation products (CC was only released for PSP after all).

Yes and no. What do Easter Eggs serve? A ittle "aha" moment to the player who may or may not get the reference. Is it always obvious? No. But easter eggs have been in media for decades, whether they have direct tie-ins or not. And the whole compilation serves more than just a moment for some easter eggs, it's an opportunity to expend upon a beloved world.

Playing off what X said earlier about there being Turks personel files that you could come across. Without playing/knowing about Before Crisis, would you assume that Reno, Rude, Tseng and Elena were the be-all end-all of the Turks? That there weren't others before them? Probably not. There would more than likely be other staff who were lost on missions before them. And whether you knew/played/say Before Crisis or Last Order, having little snippets of previous Turks members lends to the history of that particular sub-characters who still play a very major role in the whole of the game. Would you be inherently confused about seeing a picture of F Shotgun's face? Nah, you'd maybe think "Oh cool, there were others before them."

Same with the ruins of previous Crisis Core locations, Modeoheim and Banora. The Bone Village and Corel serve as run down locations of places that used to flourish. Bonora and Modeheim are very similar and having just a little location on the world map would again, be a little "aha moment"/throwback to those who played Crisis Core... and those who don't? They might glaze over it, and forget about it, as if it's nothing, because it would be.

But what does it hurt? It's added content and I just don't see what's wrong with adding more to the story and expanding upon it. I just don't get that after all the thought and heart that went into the compilation (especially Advent Children Complete which was overhauled) would be disregarded. Especially after it was stated that Final Fantasy VII would go on for 20 years, compilation included.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Given that Advent Children can't be directly referenced due to the fact that it takes place in the future, but Crisis Core can be because it took place in the recent past and also directly connects to Cloud's narrative, I don't see why you'd think that AC references are more likely than CC ones. Also, not to mention that mobile gaming is a much bigger market in Japan, and Zack is also an incredibly popular character in addition to being a component of FFVII's main story.

I imagine there'll be one big reference in the form of Denzel being in the game. also AC Cloud DLC.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I imagine there'll be one big reference in the form of Denzel being in the game. also AC Cloud DLC.

Oh, I don't doubt that those are high possibilities. My comment was all about likelyhood of AC vs. CC references, not that we wouldn't have both. The AC Costume as a game completion thing seems almost too obvious to pass up.




X :neo:
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Considering how mood ruining some outfit choices can be when you can alter a character's appearance, I figure alternate outfits could be completion bonuses or something. I mean, imagine if you first saw Aerith's death scene while everyone was wearing stuff like the Wall Market outfits and the sailor suit. You'd be better off saving that stuff for a replay.
 
Last edited:

Kaneki

Banned
I'm fine with the games designers splitting up the game into different parts, mainly because it means were more likely to have a playable version sooner as opposed to the long wait we have had to experience for the current FF (that still hasn't released but was showcased years ago)

That said there are areas in this remake that are kinda making me a tad concerned, mainly the new battle system vs some of the ridiculous fight platforms the original had. By this I mean being able to fight underwater against emerald weapon or fighting any of the weapons at all. In terms of scale of fights if we look at the current fight system it looks like they are scaling enemies quite well, now apply this to creatures who are taller than the biggest buildings in the FF world and then try and imagine running around their feet doing basic attacks :-/

Other than this I'm genuinely excited to see what they accomplish.
 

hian

Purist
Seems they'll be doing tie ins, but Nomura also states that he feels the compilation isn't well enough fleshed out to make good sense with the original.
They'll be doing a lot of expansion on Biggs Wedge and Jessie, going as far as exploring how they came to join Avalanche .

They also state that the first reactor mission serves only as the games tutorial of sorts, to give an idea of how big this game is actually going to be.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
(also Tres just pointed out in the Buster Sword thread that Cloud is wearing the Compilation SOLDIER logo, not the old one for further evidence that the Compilation isn't being wiped away.)
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
So I don't think I'll be able to properly respond to the sheer amount of things people said following the post I'd made that led to this discussion, as well as feeling like my input isn't required for it, as a lot of it was already addressed. However, I feel I should add to a few points now that I'm a bit less occupied with other things, despite having posted about some of the recent discussion.

We've seen that visual elements of the compilation have made it into the remake. We don't know how much of it will be referenced, but that they only need to keep what they want to keep, which is what they think adds to the remake and won't maintain contradictions already seen when looking at the compilation as a whole rather than as individual entries. It's also far easier to integrate visual elements than it is to do with plot, so whatever references they make might be all they want to keep from the compilation and they can't really keep all of it. Don't get me wrong, there're some things from the compilation I'd enjoy seeing if they can fit it in but the compilation isn't entirely consistent and I doubt they'd want to impede the remake by refusing to retcon anything in the compilation.

Since Genesis at the reactor was brought up with the standard Cloud probably just didn't remember him being there excuse, CC had him knocked out by Genesis copies right as Zack was exiting the reactor. You'd think he would've seen Genesis go in and even leaving before that happened. For the excuse that Zack told Cloud about what happened inside the reactor but omitted the part with Genesis, why would Zack do that? Also, the Nibelheim flashback plays out more like Cloud's reliving the memories you're playing through somewhat as he's retelling the events to the group as you see if you go into his house. While stuff like being able to wander around and talk to everyone is for the player's convenience, entering Tifa's house and her interruptions about it are the only time you're given reason to think he may have thrown something in that he or Zack haven't actually experienced, aside from what only Tifa should know about. In reactor 5, Cloud gets a flashback of Tifa in the reactor, while Zack seems to have only seen her there after she tried and failed to attack Sephiroth. This flashback suggests he may know about that the same way he'd know about Zack's memories regardless of whether or not he was told about them.

Regarding the plausibility of seeing the dumbapple, I'd think it'd be long gone after 5 years and everything that happened in the reactor when Sephiroth went nuts.

For the weapon fights I think they might allow you to jump and climb onto them. I'm still not sure what they'd do about Emerald and Ultimate Weapon if they remain underwater and aerial fights respectively.

Something I thought of a while ago but didn't get around to bringing up is that while I doubt they'll do it, it'd be cool if they'd go over some of the unused concepts and do stuff like retool the Nanaki clones subplot. Instead of having Nanaki worry about being the last of his kind, it'd be more about him being among the last of his kind if they include Deneh in some way. The two of them and their children wouldn't really be enough to prevent their species extinction so that issue is worth addressing if they feel like going the route.
 

Random Nobody

local roach
now apply this to creatures who are taller than the biggest buildings in the FF world and then try and imagine running around their feet doing basic attacks :-/
dark-souls-title.jpg
 

Kaneki

Banned
now apply this to creatures who are taller than the biggest buildings in the FF world and then try and imagine running around their feet doing basic attacks :-/
dark-souls-title.jpg

Just as Dark Souls is about fighting a bunch of skeletons, each one larger than the last, so is Final Fantasy VII about fighting a bunch of Sephiroths, each one more scantily clad than the one before it.

Never played dark should but never heard of monsters as big as skyscrapers strutting around the playing fields as you stand a mere speck at their feet trying to whittle their health bar down.
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
Maybe to attack the Weapons you'll need to employ a mixture of long-range attacks with perhaps some moments at regular intervals that allow you to attack the Weapon as it moves or even climb up into its back. I remember something similar happening in XIII-2 during a few fights with large enemies/bosses.
As for Emerald, I honestly have no idea. Perhaps you get to use the sub to assist you in battle? :awesome:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Regarding the plausibility of seeing the dumbapple, I'd think it'd be long gone after 5 years and everything that happened in the reactor when Sephiroth went nuts.

Just for clarification, I was suggesting seeing it on the stairs during the flashback, not in present day. That'd be ridiculous.




X :neo:
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
Never played dark should but never heard of monsters as big as skyscrapers strutting around the playing fields as you stand a mere speck at their feet trying to whittle their health bar down.

shadow-of-the-colossus-screenshot1.jpg


You have to stab them in specific spots you reach by climbing but I think it's a worthwhile comparison. They can definitely convey the sheer size of the Weapons and allow you to fight on them if necessary. The question is how to do it with the combat system they have.

Regarding the plausibility of seeing the dumbapple, I'd think it'd be long gone after 5 years and everything that happened in the reactor when Sephiroth went nuts.

Just for clarification, I was suggesting seeing it on the stairs during the flashback, not in present day. That'd be ridiculous.




X :neo:

You mean when everyone is busy trying to kill Sephiroth before he takes Jenova? Even if they could get it in there in an obstructive way, seeing the apple would likely be a bit distracting like when you see items in a cutscene. I suppose it could be plausible it they really really wanted to keep that part of CC. I think there are better ways they could make Genesis easter eggs though.
 

micknutson9

Pro Adventurer
^I think he meant when Genesis's Dumbapple was seen on the stairs after Genesis departed from the scene when he told Sephiroth his origin. Remember... Sephiroth smacked it out of his hand, telling him that "He will rot" in disgust. The Camera focused on the discarded apple before fading.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
If you're only including Genesis' apple and it wold be ridiculous to see it 5 years later, then that leaves the Nibelheim incident when Sephiroth tries to take Jenova with him. Otherwise the apple would have no business being there.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Seems they'll be doing tie ins, but Nomura also states that he feels the compilation isn't well enough fleshed out to make good sense with the original.
They'll be doing a lot of expansion on Biggs Wedge and Jessie, going as far as exploring how they came to join Avalanche .

.

Which is funny cause had i not seen the trailer I wouldn't have cared about this :monster:
 

Kaneki

Banned
Never played dark should but never heard of monsters as big as skyscrapers strutting around the playing fields as you stand a mere speck at their feet trying to whittle their health bar down.

shadow-of-the-colossus-screenshot1.jpg


You have to stab them in specific spots you reach by climbing but I think it's a worthwhile comparison. They can definitely convey the sheer size of the Weapons and allow you to fight on them if necessary. The question is how to do it with the combat system they have.

Regarding the plausibility of seeing the dumbapple, I'd think it'd be long gone after 5 years and everything that happened in the reactor when Sephiroth went nuts.

Just for clarification, I was suggesting seeing it on the stairs during the flashback, not in present day. That'd be ridiculous.




X :neo:

You mean when everyone is busy trying to kill Sephiroth before he takes Jenova? Even if they could get it in there in an obstructive way, seeing the apple would likely be a bit distracting like when you see items in a cutscene. I suppose it could be plausible it they really really wanted to keep that part of CC. I think there are better ways they could make Genesis easter eggs though.
As much as I loved shadow of the collosus I don't think having that type of battle would be good within ff7. I just think they need to really keep the battles in mind with the new fight system even by doing things like the high wind battles where you can only use magic and ranged weaponry.
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I know the the gameplay won't be the same, I said as much at the end. The main point of comparison was the scale and possibly having to fight the Weapons while on them, even though it's likely there'll be more jumping than climbing. The sentence I quoted also brought that specific game to mind and I thought it'd be a shame not to bring it up, considering its relevance. They could also let you fight Ultimate Weapon with the Highwind and Emerald with the sub. It'd certainly make them unique and interesting fights.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
^I think he meant when Genesis's Dumbapple was seen on the stairs after Genesis departed from the scene when he told Sephiroth his origin. Remember... Sephiroth smacked it out of his hand, telling him that "He will rot" in disgust. The Camera focused on the discarded apple before fading.

Yes. Literally that scene.

We don't need to see Genesis' conversation, but during that Flashback, you could still see the apple lying on the stairs (since it was left there). Again - JUST during the flashback. Not magically still there 5 years later.




X :neo:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom