Hopes for the remake (story/content)

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Wikipedia can be a great resource if you're reading it with the right expectations. Anyone can edit it, so -- like any other claim you read -- it's only as good as its sources. You should be verifying the references of potentially contentious things you read there. The well-composed articles will reference their sources for almost everything, and, therefore, be reliable.
Well, if that's the case, then no one edited that part at all when they should have. Then again, no matter where I go or what website I look for to actually see the confirmination about the future of the Compilation as well as the actual connection or no connection, all I keep seeing is the same old news, or more fan reports on the Remake.

It's so complicated with things that haven't been confirmed on whether or not certain projects(or ideas) are scrapped/cancelled or not, which is frustrating. I've been in this loop for years now, and yes, I do have other things to keep me busy to prevent myself from going insane over something that I admittedly know I shouldn't(and I do have more major worries through out next month for my parents, so I'll be a complete nervous wreck until the end of March), but after no such information for so long, it's easy to go mentally stir crazy.

The gameplay footage they've shown us for the remake also shows Cloud using a Buster Sword with a crossguard resembling that in his original design. It's a lot more likely that this is what the sword will look like when we begin the game than it is that they're going to swap out the model for the actual release.

Even if the sword's golden wing sculpt from the Compilation is under that box with the rivets (I think it is), hian is correct that this still marks a retcon from the very end of Crisis Core when Cloud was seen riding that train toward the first bombing mission of the original game without anything concealing the golden sculpt on the sword. There wouldn't be any modifications taking place during that train ride, so we're looking at a small, but tangible retcon of something from the Compilation.

Of course, the sword still bears the rest of the additions to its design from the Compilation, so it isn't retconning the look of the sword in the Compilation. It just seems to be combining it with the original design in a more seamless way than before.

What hian is suggesting is that we can expect a lot of things like that.
At this point, I think the company is just making things more and more confusing and frustrating when it comes to their games these days. Plus, I think one of the main reasons why Crisis Core was a success was because Hajima Tabata was the director of that game and despite that this will never happen, he had made comments that he was still interested in remaking Before Crisis, but I think he should take a well deserved break after FFXV first though, because from I just looked up, during this project now and during the development of the Type-0 HD, he only gets three hours of sleep, the poor guy.

But again, I think he should've been director of the Remake and other Compilation titles. Out all of them, I think he's the best choice, which is probably why Nomura never stood a chance, because he was leading the team into the wrong direction. He's better off in character designs and producing.

We'll just have to wait and see. Though in retrospect, I think the Remake will be the last FFVII title they'll do.

I thought western comic books had the only fandom where people hated everything about something they may enjoy before they barely know anything about it.
There are also movie trailers of upcoming films that can already say that those said films are going to be bad too. Maybe I will try the remake out, but I just have a gut feeling that I'll be disappointed, and gut feelings are never wrong.
 
Even as someone who enjoys most of the Compilation content overall (DoC is the only entry that I qualify as poor/actively dissapointing) while recognizing its overall mixed-bag reception, I don't really get why (or even how) there should be an impetus for directly referencing the Compilation in the Remake.

I mean like how people have already pointed out with Genesis (in how not directly appearing in the Remake wouldn't qualify as retconning/ignoring the Compilation since Genesis is supposed to be hidden away during the OG events) isn't the majority of the Compilation written/presented in a manner that reasonably explains why said Compilations events/content wouldn't have been noticed by the characters in the OG?

Like I'm sure there will be plenty of indirect references and/or easter eggs that relate to the Compilation in the Remake (even if they are slightly modified from their original Compilation depiction, the Buster Sword being an example of that) but unless the Remake were to have entirely new playable character perspectives added to it (I could maybe see the remake having playable Zack flashbacks like Laguna in FFVIII, but I wouldn't hold my breath), I don't see the need for much direct referencing.

And I still don't get the logic behind the Remake somehow hurting the chances of additional post-Remake Compilation content being created (like a BC remake that Tashasaurous seems to always be hung up on). I mean if the Remake ends up being really successful, it should have the opposite effect, I would think.
 
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SLFFVII

FFVII RP in Second Life
AKA
Floyd Gilmour
I am in the camp of people Pro ties to the rest of the compilation, and hope that if this remake is successful that Square will pull their finger out and release a HD remaster of Crisis Core on the latest gen consoles. I actually like Genesis, but would hope that if there is any inclusion of him in the remake it is purely referential or sideboss material, and not integrated into the games story.
 
AKA
The Engineer
^^The trouble with that is that if Genesis isn't in Crisis Core, there's no story. No really. Having to deal with him is what kicks the entire plot off. If SE were to leave Genesis out of CC, they'd pretty much have to come up with a whole new story.
 

Unit-01

Waiting on Evangelion 3.0+1.0
AKA
Sicarius VI, Pink Guy, Sic, Anthony
^^^You think it would.

Either way this posting has enlightening to me. More deeply understand the reasons why people disliked the Compilation. The whole argument of Deepground titles to there name makes a lot of sense, like Azul which is Blue in Spanish so literally Blue the Cerulean. Or the fact they could've easily expanded with the already existing set of characters. Did definitely like Lex's idea of Lucretia being the villain. It would make sense and still follow part of what FF7 did, also I'd imagine that would be creepy as fuck to and subsequently show the dark side to Vincent.(If you think about it 7 can be a creepy game with some of the parts).

The wasted potential the Compilation is there, and shown with the bad writing. This does't mean all of it's bad but I do understand what parts are now. As I said before for fans of the compilation the remake could be a way to tie everything together. Also don't really understand why people are treating the Compilation and the OG+Remake as separate because they are the same story-line. Regardless of if they fix the Remake to fit in with the Compilation or they fix the Compilation to fit in with the Remake(latter preferred) they should do some continuity changes and some rewrites. That is just the case there is some issues that just don't make any sense.

They did say the game's volume will be larger than the OG, so they could do some compilation stuff or just add in new stuff(likely going to be both). Either way I feel like there are going to be plenty of nods at the very least to compilation, but the Remake's story is solely(and rightfully so) going to be focus on Remaking FF7.

Would it be cool if the game's supposed success spawned compilation remakes of some of the games? Of Course! Am I betting on it, no. (Still an answer or ret-con of the Secret ending G in DOC would be nice).

@The Engineer- Actually they could focus more on fighting the AVALANCHE, I mean antagonist in BC. But that would take a lot of work and not be worth it considering how well CC sold. I'm also with SLFFVII for being in that camp too.
 
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^^The trouble with that is that if Genesis isn't in Crisis Core, there's no story. No really. Having to deal with him is what kicks the entire plot off. If SE were to leave Genesis out of CC, they'd pretty much have to come up with a whole new story.
I think you're misunderstanding SLFFVII's second sentence. I don't think they are referring to a Crisis Core HD remake/remaster when they say they only want Genesis limited to being "purely referential or sideboss material, and not integrated into the games story." I think their second sentence is in reference to the main OG FFVII Remake.
 

Lex

Administrator
I just want to state for the record again that I don't hate the compilation, I just get frustrated sometimes when I think about what could have been. I don't care at all if they tie it in or they don't, but they've already said they are so there's a fact we have about the remake :P.
 
In the Compilation of FFVII section on Wikipedia, unless that site wasn't ment to be trusted and I have to stop visiting there.
It can be trustworthy, and it can be mistaken. Like all wiki pages, it is managed by its users. My point was simply that the only authority on this are the people at SE themselves, and as several have pointed out, unless current heads of the company have stated specifically what they're going to do with the compilation in light of current policy, we just can't know.

They make new locations in every of their titles all the time. Compilation of FFVII was no exception.
That's not an argument. Nobody here is arguing that new locations should or should not be added, or that there is some magical rule to the way in which locations are treated in a piece of art or media. The point is that the locations added in the compilation were neither necessary, nor congruent, nor particularly well written/designed as a part of the already established universe.

One thing that really got me with CC for example, was Modeoheim.

In the original game, Nibelheim, a name taken directly from Norse mythology, with the black mountain range, and Northern/Germanic architecture, you have a town that like with most of FFVII's locations and lore follow a distinct pattern of acting as an analogy, and being symbolic to the real world, yet like with all locations within that world, having its own distinct feel and theme.

Modeoheim on the other hand, is a bastard term mixing real with pure fantasy, and the town itself having no distinct or original theme, but instead being a bland and uninspired mixture of various elements from earlier made locations (Nibelheim and Snow Fields). It's emblematic of what happens when writers are tasked to continue on a work they're no longer emotionally connected to, have lost the creative spark or feel for, and then make the mistake of thinking that adding something new that fits with the old is just a matter of taking a couple of different elements of the original, throwing it into a blender and going with whatever comes out the other end.

That's essentially what almost everything in the compilation feels like to me. Bad fan-fiction. Like it's written and designed by people whose love for the lore is no longer grounded in what the game actually was, but the corny teenage-like power-fantasies that they spun for themselves in the aftermath of the game, fed and bred on the movie/video-game/anime works that became popular the following years.

AC feels like it was designed and written by a guy who just watched the Matrix - furthermore, the same kind of guy who, when making a user for an internet site, or MMORPG always pick names like "xXDarkAngelSasukeXx" or "OneWingedCloud9999", and always make avatars with long grey hair. I.E the kind of guy that thinks making something cool is just a matter of throwing a bunch of things considered cool by themselves together, with no concept of things like "cringe".

It's literally "Let's make a reason to have Cloud fight against Sephiroth all over again, in the ruins of Midgar, in spectacular Dragonball Z fashion, because that's KEEEWWL!!!11!!"
Also, let's give him a new sword that looks kinda like the buster sword, but is actually a bunch of swords in one, because you know, more is better, right? KEEEEEWL!
Also, we'll have three grey-haired characters this time around! In black! KEEEEWL!
Also lets give all the tech in the movie, like the cell-phones and the bike this sleek post 2000 look because hey, nobody really likes the old-school "modern-punk" look anymore right? KEEEWL.

The compilation clearly forgot that Sephiroth clearly could not cut concrete, as should be obvious when he can't even cut through the tanks in the Nibel reactor.
And the virtual reality training room in CC? Give me a break. One look at the old-school security monitors and the lack of advanced computers in FFVII should tune people into how eeeextremely out of touch the compilation is with the source material.

I could keep on going, but I think the point should be pretty clear. No, SE, by all means, add more locations. Do whatever you want. However, I am criticize it when its poorly done.

Nomura himself said that, despite the added new scenes in the film, that the Complete version did not mark the end of the Compilation, nor did Dirge of Cerberus, unless he lied.
One should not attribute to malice what can just as easily be explained by incompetence. Nomura saying that all those years ago just goes to show one thing - what he wanted to do all those years ago. Circumstances change and so do people. It's perfectly reasonable based on the fact that nothing happened for all this time, that this was simply something that didn't work out the way he planned.

Well, the trailers were the early "sneak-preview" trailers and not the completed work, so they could change those at short notice.
No. The first trailer was a teaser produced by an outside company for the sake of the reveal. Those scenes will not be featured in the game as Nomura has already stated he was not satisfied with the style.

The second trailer however was game-play, and has stated to be the style that they will now be going for. They have also completed the scenario writing for the first part, which the second trailer is taken from.

Will there be changes to game-play and graphical fidelity? Sure. Will Cloud's Buster Sword change after what Nomura has said about his satisfaction with the new style and the fact that the scenario writing is no complete? No.

And they did say that they wouldn't reveal any more details regards to the game until both FFXV and KH2.8 are released, which we could be given more info in December this year. Plus, Cloud might've fiddled with the Buster Sword for all we know.
Irrelevant. In the CC intro sequence he hadn't fiddled with it. The inclusion of fiddling in and of itself would be a retcon of compilation canon.

You really hate sequels, don't you? Even when FFVII and KH are concerned. Me, I hate cliff-hangers, so that's why I'm content in having the questions that were asked for several years to be answered when it comes to things like this.
I don't hate them as stand-alone products. I think CC is a good action RPG, and I think AC is a decent action pop-corn flick. I think they're horrible as sequels and prequels to FFVII, because not only are they poorly written in comparison, the style is inconsistent with the original, and they introduce plot elements that don't mesh well with the established canon of the original.

What I do hate though is what they represent - SE doing the exact opposite of what fans wanted (a remake), making something nobody ever asked for, solely for the sake of cheap profit by using appeal of their Nr.1 best selling FF game.
Also, there's a difference between a cliff-hanger and an open ending. FFVII had the latter not the former. To my mind, that's one of the things that made the story good. I loath the U.S AAA cinema trend of spoon-feeding information to the audience like they're all children without attention spans, intellect or imagination.

Japanese media often, like FFVII trend towards open endings. Why? Primarily because of culture and the Japanese not liking to be confrontational, and one part of open endings is that they allow each and every fan their own private ending through interpretation.

It's like the Cloud, Tifa, Aerith love triangle thing - not making it canon one way or the other means that each player can imagine Cloud being invested in whichever one they happen to prefer, instead of being foisted with one which they might not care for.
That's a good thing to my mind. Personally, the ending I had in mind after completing FFVII was better than AC by far, which is why AC is such a downer.

]I was afraid someone would say that eventually, but I'm not surprised. In the end, the Remake is going to be a massive drop in fianance, and a major disappointment. It's a major disappointment to me already and it isn't even out yet. So, I'll just have to avoid it.
I doubt it's going to be a "drop in finance" for SE. The game will sell like hot-cakes no matter what they do with it. And judging by the popularity of AAA action RPGs these days, the majority of people buying this game won't even necessarily be the fans of the original.

And, regardless of my personal doubts, it is imaginable that this reboot will do interesting things in its own rights that make it a great game. It's dawned on me replaying the original now, that I'm not sure I would want a conventional remake of it.
It's excellent in its own right, and I'd argue it still stands up to this day. If I'm going to immerse myself in a "remake" of it, it might as well be something that has clear distinctions and differences, instead of something that's essentially just the same thing with prettier graphics.

I've already been there and done that in every conceivable way in the original. Now, I'd rather play something that capture the feeling of playing (a game like) FFVII for the first time - not just capture the feeling of FFVII, a game I've already played to death.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
hian said:
That's not an argument. Nobody here is arguing that new locations should or should not be added, or that there is some magical rule to the way in which locations are treated in a piece of art or media. The point is that the locations added in the compilation were neither necessary, nor congruent, nor particularly well written/designed as a part of the already established universe.

One thing that really got me with CC for example, was Modeoheim.

In the original game, Nibelheim, a name taken directly from Norse mythology, with the black mountain range, and Northern/Germanic architecture, you have a town that like with most of FFVII's locations and lore follow a distinct pattern of acting as an analogy, and being symbolic to the real world, yet like with all locations within that world, having its own distinct feel and theme.

Modeoheim on the other hand, is a bastard term mixing real with pure fantasy, and the town itself having no distinct or original theme, but instead being a bland and uninspired mixture of various elements from earlier made locations (Nibelheim and Snow Fields). It's emblematic of what happens when writers are tasked to continue on a work they're no longer emotionally connected to, have lost the creative spark or feel for, and then make the mistake of thinking that adding something new that fits with the old is just a matter of taking a couple of different elements of the original, throwing it into a blender and going with whatever comes out the other end.

That's essentially what almost everything in the compilation feels like to me. Bad fan-fiction. Like it's written and designed by people whose love for the lore is no longer grounded in what the game actually was, but the corny teenage-like power-fantasies that they spun for themselves in the aftermath of the game, fed and bred on the movie/video-game/anime works that became popular the following years.

AC feels like it was designed and written by a guy who just watched the Matrix - furthermore, the same kind of guy who, when making a user for an internet site, or MMORPG always pick names like "xXDarkAngelSasukeXx" or "OneWingedCloud9999", and always make avatars with long grey hair. I.E the kind of guy that thinks making something cool is just a matter of throwing a bunch of things considered cool by themselves together, with no concept of things like "cringe".

It's literally "Let's make a reason to have Cloud fight against Sephiroth all over again, in the ruins of Midgar, in spectacular Dragonball Z fashion, because that's KEEEWWL!!!11!!"
Also, let's give him a new sword that looks kinda like the buster sword, but is actually a bunch of swords in one, because you know, more is better, right? KEEEEEWL!
Also, we'll have three grey-haired characters this time around! In black! KEEEEWL!
Also lets give all the tech in the movie, like the cell-phones and the bike this sleek post 2000 look because hey, nobody really likes the old-school "modern-punk" look anymore right? KEEEWL.

The compilation clearly forgot that Sephiroth clearly could not cut concrete, as should be obvious when he can't even cut through the tanks in the Nibel reactor.
And the virtual reality training room in CC? Give me a break. One look at the old-school security monitors and the lack of advanced computers in FFVII should tune people into how eeeextremely out of touch the compilation is with the source material.

I could keep on going, but I think the point should be pretty clear. No, SE, by all means, add more locations. Do whatever you want. However, I am criticize it when its poorly done.
I hope this isn't too forward of me.....but can I marry you please? :monster:
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Even as someone who enjoys most of the Compilation content overall (DoC is the only entry that I qualify as poor/actively dissapointing) while recognizing its overall mixed-bag reception, I don't really get why (or even how) there should be an impetus for directly referencing the Compilation in the Remake.

I mean like how people have already pointed out with Genesis (in how not directly appearing in the Remake wouldn't qualify as retconning/ignoring the Compilation since Genesis is supposed to be hidden away during the OG events) isn't the majority of the Compilation written/presented in a manner that reasonably explains why said Compilations events/content wouldn't have been noticed by the characters in the OG?

Like I'm sure there will be plenty of indirect references and/or easter eggs that relate to the Compilation in the Remake (even if they are slightly modified from their original Compilation depiction, the Buster Sword being an example of that) but unless the Remake were to have entirely new playable character perspectives added to it (I could maybe see the remake having playable Zack flashbacks like Laguna in FFVIII, but I wouldn't hold my breath), I don't see the need for much direct referencing.

And I still don't get the logic behind the Remake somehow hurting the chances of additional post-Remake Compilation content being created (like a BC remake that Tashasaurous seems to always be hung up on). I mean if the Remake ends up being really successful, it should have the opposite effect, I would think.
Like I said, Genesis doesn't have to be in the remake, because as you pointed out, he was fast asleep, hidden from the rest of the world for the next 3/4 years. I was just talking about a few other references from the other pieces of the Compilation-for example, in a bit of a side story, Cloud might vaguely remember an BC Turk in Nibelhiem, Hojo could be thinking about how Lucrecia's theory in Omega and Chaos in his mind after seeing Vincent transform into Chaos(personally, I think the OG's version of Chaos looked more like Cherbog from Fantasia), and/or the three remaining original Turks think about Veld/Verdot(I prefer Veld) and the other lost Turks and how Elena would react over her older sister's "death" until the evacuation of Midgar.

And then a new second ending(along with the original "500 years later" ending) that shows scenes through out the next two years up until the opening of Advent Children movie with an "To be Continued in Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children/Complete" and a secret ending that expands Genesis's return(that's the only time I can see him make an appearence in the Remake at all).

And yes I know that I'm still hung over for a(never ever, but one can dream) remake of Before Crisis as it was never released outside Japan, and I never got to even see the gameplay of Episode of Reno or Episode of Legend at all.

I am in the camp of people Pro ties to the rest of the compilation, and hope that if this remake is successful that Square will pull their finger out and release a HD remaster of Crisis Core on the latest gen consoles. I actually like Genesis, but would hope that if there is any inclusion of him in the remake it is purely referential or sideboss material, and not integrated into the games story.
That's what I'm hoping too, but at this point, it's now becoming very unlikely and it's also very likely that the Remake will be the last FFVII title they'll make.

^^The trouble with that is that if Genesis isn't in Crisis Core, there's no story. No really. Having to deal with him is what kicks the entire plot off. If SE were to leave Genesis out of CC, they'd pretty much have to come up with a whole new story.
Almost exactly what I said earlier. They had to make a villian somewhere, otherwise Crisis Core wouldn't have existed in the first place, and I'm seriously hoping that some of the new story content is bits and pieces from the Compilation as well as correcting some things the OG didn't have.

^^^You think it would.

Either way this posting has enlightening to me. More deeply understand the reasons why people disliked the Compilation. The whole argument of Deepground titles to there name makes a lot of sense, like Azul which is Blue in Spanish so literally Blue the Cerulean. Or the fact they could've easily expanded with the already existing set of characters. Did definitely like Lex's idea of Lucretia being the villain. It would make sense and still follow part of what FF7 did, also I'd imagine that would be creepy as fuck to and subsequently show the dark side to Vincent.(If you think about it 7 can be a creepy game with some of the parts).

The wasted potential the Compilation is there, and shown with the bad writing. This does't mean all of it's bad but I do understand what parts are now. As I said before for fans of the compilation the remake could be a way to tie everything together. Also don't really understand why people are treating the Compilation and the OG+Remake as separate because they are the same story-line. Regardless of if they fix the Remake to fit in with the Compilation or they fix the Compilation to fit in with the Remake(latter preferred) they should do some continuity changes and some rewrites. That is just the case there is some issues that just don't make any sense.

They did say the game's volume will be larger than the OG, so they could do some compilation stuff or just add in new stuff(likely going to be both). Either way I feel like there are going to be plenty of nods at the very least to compilation, but the Remake's story is solely(and rightfully so) going to be focus on Remaking FF7.

Would it be cool if the game's supposed success spawned compilation remakes of some of the games? Of Course! Am I betting on it, no. (Still an answer or ret-con of the Secret ending G in DOC would be nice).

@The Engineer- Actually they could focus more on fighting the AVALANCHE, I mean antagonist in BC. But that would take a lot of work and not be worth it considering how well CC sold. I'm also with SLFFVII for being in that camp too.
Well, they had to do something, and think up villians at some point. It's like with the Sailor Moon franchise on how they got new villians after each season which in the end, all relates to Chaos(the Sailor Moon universe of Chaos, I mean), like how Deepground were the dark secrets of ShinRa(that not even the Turks or Rufus knew about that and they were both ShinRa too, well, Rufus was the heir, the Turks were the special opts), especially to the original President and Hojo, how the original AVALANCHE hated ShinRa, and how their scientest Fuhito hated life and only cared about the planet itself to the point of destroying it, and how Zack got involved in learning the dark secrets to the Company he worked for because Genesis and Angeal learned of their pasts and were conned into teaming up with another twisted scientest. In the end, it all relates to ShinRa itself, or rather, their sick scientests(except for...whatever his name is, Aerith's father she never met).

I didn't mean for them to remake the entire Compilation, just remake BC and then create one final chapter to answer all of the questions that were never answered which will(hoping for a good ending, still) eventually lead to the original ending of 500 years later.

I just want to state for the record again that I don't hate the compilation, I just get frustrated sometimes when I think about what could have been. I don't care at all if they tie it in or they don't, but they've already said they are so there's a fact we have about the remake :P.
Which again, depends on what will happen. I mean, there are no real mind readers out there, right? I'm just frustasted that they even decided to do a remake instead of finally completing the Compilation, especially how some other Final Fantasy titles had Cloud's Advent Children uniform involved.

It can be trustworthy, and it can be mistaken. Like all wiki pages, it is managed by its users. My point was simply that the only authority on this are the people at SE themselves, and as several have pointed out, unless current heads of the company have stated specifically what they're going to do with the compilation in light of current policy, we just can't know.
Which is why I'm finding it difficult that they haven't even said anything about those ideas of potiental future titles were scrapped or not so people like me could stop fussing over it, but no, they decided to remain silent to drive people mentally crazy. Like(and again, this is unrelated) how Disney remained silent over regards to National Treasure 3 over the past nearly ten years on whether it's cancelled or not.

That's not an argument. Nobody here is arguing that new locations should or should not be added, or that there is some magical rule to the way in which locations are treated in a piece of art or media. The point is that the locations added in the compilation were neither necessary, nor congruent, nor particularly well written/designed as a part of the already established universe.

One thing that really got me with CC for example, was Modeoheim.

In the original game, Nibelheim, a name taken directly from Norse mythology, with the black mountain range, and Northern/Germanic architecture, you have a town that like with most of FFVII's locations and lore follow a distinct pattern of acting as an analogy, and being symbolic to the real world, yet like with all locations within that world, having its own distinct feel and theme.

Modeoheim on the other hand, is a bastard term mixing real with pure fantasy, and the town itself having no distinct or original theme, but instead being a bland and uninspired mixture of various elements from earlier made locations (Nibelheim and Snow Fields). It's emblematic of what happens when writers are tasked to continue on a work they're no longer emotionally connected to, have lost the creative spark or feel for, and then make the mistake of thinking that adding something new that fits with the old is just a matter of taking a couple of different elements of the original, throwing it into a blender and going with whatever comes out the other end.

That's essentially what almost everything in the compilation feels like to me. Bad fan-fiction. Like it's written and designed by people whose love for the lore is no longer grounded in what the game actually was, but the corny teenage-like power-fantasies that they spun for themselves in the aftermath of the game, fed and bred on the movie/video-game/anime works that became popular the following years.

AC feels like it was designed and written by a guy who just watched the Matrix - furthermore, the same kind of guy who, when making a user for an internet site, or MMORPG always pick names like "xXDarkAngelSasukeXx" or "OneWingedCloud9999", and always make avatars with long grey hair. I.E the kind of guy that thinks making something cool is just a matter of throwing a bunch of things considered cool by themselves together, with no concept of things like "cringe".

It's literally "Let's make a reason to have Cloud fight against Sephiroth all over again, in the ruins of Midgar, in spectacular Dragonball Z fashion, because that's KEEEWWL!!!11!!"
Also, let's give him a new sword that looks kinda like the buster sword, but is actually a bunch of swords in one, because you know, more is better, right? KEEEEEWL!
Also, we'll have three grey-haired characters this time around! In black! KEEEEWL!
Also lets give all the tech in the movie, like the cell-phones and the bike this sleek post 2000 look because hey, nobody really likes the old-school "modern-punk" look anymore right? KEEEWL.

The compilation clearly forgot that Sephiroth clearly could not cut concrete, as should be obvious when he can't even cut through the tanks in the Nibel reactor.
And the virtual reality training room in CC? Give me a break. One look at the old-school security monitors and the lack of advanced computers in FFVII should tune people into how eeeextremely out of touch the compilation is with the source material.

I could keep on going, but I think the point should be pretty clear. No, SE, by all means, add more locations. Do whatever you want. However, I am criticize it when its poorly done.
This is starting to sound more like how my sister lost interest in Pokemon after they kept on creating new species from the original number of 150.

Plus, continants are not small in the world, whether in the real world or the FFVII world. There could be more snowy mountains and millions of more towns in the FFVII world for all we know, so they had to add something.

No. The first trailer was a teaser produced by an outside company for the sake of the reveal. Those scenes will not be featured in the game as Nomura has already stated he was not satisfied with the style.

The second trailer however was game-play, and has stated to be the style that they will now be going for. They have also completed the scenario writing for the first part, which the second trailer is taken from.

Will there be changes to game-play and graphical fidelity? Sure. Will Cloud's Buster Sword change after what Nomura has said about his satisfaction with the new style and the fact that the scenario writing is not complete? No. Irrelevant. In the CC intro sequence he hadn't fiddled with it. The inclusion of fiddling in and of itself would be a retcon of compilation canon.
Didn't know even Nomura didn't like the first trailer's style either. I mean, at that point, the first trailer felt more like a FFXIII world than FFVII world and maybe that's why that style sucked so much.

And I know the second trailer was the gameplay, which, felt more FFXV style(especially how the ShinRa army appeared in cars like the new bad guy army would attack Noctis and his friends).

Plus, even weapons need to have origins too.(The Keyblade from KH for example.)

I just don't like the idea of them creating a series franchise, and then just leave it with more questions than anything.

I don't hate them as stand-alone products. I think CC is a good action RPG, and I think AC is a decent action pop-corn flick. I think they're horrible as sequels and prequels to FFVII, because not only are they poorly written in comparison, the style is inconsistent with the original, and they introduce plot elements that don't mesh well with the established canon of the original.

What I do hate though is what they represent - SE doing the exact opposite of what fans wanted (a remake), making something nobody ever asked for, solely for the sake of cheap profit by using appeal of their Nr.1 best selling FF game.
Also, there's a difference between a cliff-hanger and an open ending. FFVII had the latter not the former. To my mind, that's one of the things that made the story good. I loath the U.S AAA cinema trend of spoon-feeding information to the audience like they're all children without attention spans, intellect or imagination.

Japanese media often, like FFVII trend towards open endings. Why? Primarily because of culture and the Japanese not liking to be confrontational, and one part of open endings is that they allow each and every fan their own private ending through interpretation.

It's like the Cloud, Tifa, Aerith love triangle thing - not making it canon one way or the other means that each player can imagine Cloud being invested in whichever one they happen to prefer, instead of being foisted with one which they might not care for.
That's a good thing to my mind. Personally, the ending I had in mind after completing FFVII was better than AC by far, which is why AC is such a downer.
I never thought the OG ending was an open ending. It felt more like a cliff-hanging gap kind of thing. With Advent Children, it answered on how humanity survived and began to rebuild their lives while Midgar was obviously abandoned due to the damage Meteor caused. If that never happened, then I never would liked FFVII in the first place.

As for how the remake(and some of the other Compilation titles), my personal thinking is that Nomura is just bad in directing anything-period. The reason why Crisis Core was a success was because Tabata was the director at the time.

The same with the FFX(and it's sequel) and the FFXIII trilogy's director(and I just know, if there'll be a FFX-3, which is very unlikely, that game will suck just as bad as FFX-2.).

If Tabata were the director in all of the Compilation titles, then maybe things would've been better off. He has the potiental directing material.

As for the Cloud, Aerith and Tifa love triangle thing, I think Cloud held feelings for both of them, but still felt too shy, which was why Aerith could(in her scene) found it easy to go on a date with him. I think he had a crush on Tifa since childhood, but for some stupid reason, his mother never allowed him to play with other kids in Nibelhiem(which that's a mystery in and on itself for some stupid reason).

Plus, there are good American and Japanese media in two different ways, and then there's the bad media in both said countries. Actually, it's like that in any other country in the world.

And I think the Japanese do just fine with good endings in their media, but that's just me being a good ending kind of fan, so I've never been that much of a gruesome and evil ending kind of thing.


I doubt it's going to be a "drop in finance" for SE. The game will sell like hot-cakes no matter what they do with it. And judging by the popularity of AAA action RPGs these days, the majority of people buying this game won't even necessarily be the fans of the original.

And, regardless of my personal doubts, it is imaginable that this reboot will do interesting things in its own rights that make it a great game. It's dawned on me replaying the original now, that I'm not sure I would want a conventional remake of it.
It's excellent in its own right, and I'd argue it still stands up to this day. If I'm going to immerse myself in a "remake" of it, it might as well be something that has clear distinctions and differences, instead of something that's essentially just the same thing with prettier graphics.

I've already been there and done that in every conceivable way in the original. Now, I'd rather play something that capture the feeling of playing (a game like) FFVII for the first time - not just capture the feeling of FFVII, a game I've already played to death.
I have hoped that the Remake was both a new story of the original game as well as keeping the legacy of the Compilation alive at the same time(in other words, connecting both of them in a new way to make more sense in the franchise).
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Tashasaurous said:
Which again, depends on what will happen. I mean, there are no real mind readers out there, right? I'm just frustasted that they even decided to do a remake instead of finally completing the Compilation, especially how some other Final Fantasy titles had Cloud's Advent Children uniform involved.
Really? :closedmonster:

And I don't get what Clouds AC outfit has to do with it :huh:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
@Tasha: I wouldn't worry about it too much. The Remake happening is neither a confirmation nor is it a denial that any more compilation titles will be made. We just simply don't have enough to go on to know for sure.

Just relax and take it as it comes. There's no need to worry about it yet. :)
 
Given this thing is going to be released episodically, I don't think any plans for making a final game/movie that ties all the strings together will happen for several years yet :P.
 
. The whole argument of Deepground titles to there name makes a lot of sense, like Azul which is Blue in Spanish so literally Blue the Cerulean. Or the fact they could've easily expanded with the already existing set of characters.
"
Actually, I thought that was consistent with the Science department not caring about naming their experiments. Nanaki's experiment name was "Red XIII" because he was red. You can imagine the staff meeting.

Researcher: Hi guys, Scarlet's refusing to take part in the project unless it it has a pretty name. We've got one project that shoots little red things, one that consumes stuff with swirly black stuff, one guy with white hair.

Hojo: I do not waste time with frivolous things. Red. Black. White. Done.(walks away)

Researcher: Okay, we'll need to edit them a bit, but that'll do.
 
hian said:
That's not an argument. Nobody here is arguing that new locations should or should not be added, or that there is some magical rule to the way in which locations are treated in a piece of art or media. The point is that the locations added in the compilation were neither necessary, nor congruent, nor particularly well written/designed as a part of the already established universe.

One thing that really got me with CC for example, was Modeoheim.

In the original game, Nibelheim, a name taken directly from Norse mythology, with the black mountain range, and Northern/Germanic architecture, you have a town that like with most of FFVII's locations and lore follow a distinct pattern of acting as an analogy, and being symbolic to the real world, yet like with all locations within that world, having its own distinct feel and theme.

Modeoheim on the other hand, is a bastard term mixing real with pure fantasy, and the town itself having no distinct or original theme, but instead being a bland and uninspired mixture of various elements from earlier made locations (Nibelheim and Snow Fields). It's emblematic of what happens when writers are tasked to continue on a work they're no longer emotionally connected to, have lost the creative spark or feel for, and then make the mistake of thinking that adding something new that fits with the old is just a matter of taking a couple of different elements of the original, throwing it into a blender and going with whatever comes out the other end.

That's essentially what almost everything in the compilation feels like to me. Bad fan-fiction. Like it's written and designed by people whose love for the lore is no longer grounded in what the game actually was, but the corny teenage-like power-fantasies that they spun for themselves in the aftermath of the game, fed and bred on the movie/video-game/anime works that became popular the following years.

AC feels like it was designed and written by a guy who just watched the Matrix - furthermore, the same kind of guy who, when making a user for an internet site, or MMORPG always pick names like "xXDarkAngelSasukeXx" or "OneWingedCloud9999", and always make avatars with long grey hair. I.E the kind of guy that thinks making something cool is just a matter of throwing a bunch of things considered cool by themselves together, with no concept of things like "cringe".

It's literally "Let's make a reason to have Cloud fight against Sephiroth all over again, in the ruins of Midgar, in spectacular Dragonball Z fashion, because that's KEEEWWL!!!11!!"
Also, let's give him a new sword that looks kinda like the buster sword, but is actually a bunch of swords in one, because you know, more is better, right? KEEEEEWL!
Also, we'll have three grey-haired characters this time around! In black! KEEEEWL!
Also lets give all the tech in the movie, like the cell-phones and the bike this sleek post 2000 look because hey, nobody really likes the old-school "modern-punk" look anymore right? KEEEWL.

The compilation clearly forgot that Sephiroth clearly could not cut concrete, as should be obvious when he can't even cut through the tanks in the Nibel reactor.
And the virtual reality training room in CC? Give me a break. One look at the old-school security monitors and the lack of advanced computers in FFVII should tune people into how eeeextremely out of touch the compilation is with the source material.

I could keep on going, but I think the point should be pretty clear. No, SE, by all means, add more locations. Do whatever you want. However, I am criticize it when its poorly done.
I hope this isn't too forward of me.....but can I marry you please? :monster:
Heck, if you turn Octo down, I'm next in line, as that was pretty much spot on.
 
I hope this isn't too forward of me.....but can I marry you please? :monster:
Heck, if you turn Octo down, I'm next in line, as that was pretty much spot on.
Thanks for the offers. I'm already married though, so unless polygamy is an option you're out of luck =P

On a half-way more serious note though -

I really really don't hate the compilation titles in their own right, and I don't enjoy "bashing" them, since I know there are people (probably even on this forum) with a vested emotional connection to them, who'll feel as if I'm bashing them by proxy. That's not my intent.

When I was in my teens and watched AC for the first time, I friggin' loved that movie. I was starved for more FFVII, which was (and still is) my favorite FF game, and I was in that period of my life where I did watch a lot of anime and had just come off my Matrix binge.
It was perfect in that sense, due to the timing.

However, like when you get really drunk and what seemed awesome at first glance seems trite and dumb on later and more sober consideration, when I had more time to consider the title it became a much more sour experience for me.

In light of that I can see the movie as having great entertainment value - however, I cannot, looking back at the original, say that it did anything that needed to be done, or that it provided an experience that built on the foundations of the original in a way that would satisfy my standards for what I consider to be good sequel material.

Mostly I blame that on the "KEWL" factor of the compilation, and of the times where the compilation was first conceived.
The original FFVII, like almost all pre-FFVII titles, and FFIX (though I loved VIII and X, they really did mark the true shift in style for the franchise), had a very strong element of camp, and of childish slap-stick charm in its presentation (despite also dealing with more serious and adult issues).
These titles were, to my mind, self-aware - much in the same way as Terry Pratchett books.

The danger in just trying to write "seriously" is that it always borders close to the lands of cringe. It requires a natural gravitas and life-experience to be able to write a thorough serious tone without becoming pretentious and cringeworthy, and because this level of skill is usually leaps and bounds beyond writers involved in video-games, I find that the more effective and natural writing for video-games is found when camp and charm is used to mask the rough edges of the writing.
This is what makes games like FFVII, or Metal Gear Solid so good to my mind. The heavy layer of camp lets the players know that everything is up for grabs - that the game and the world might serve as a device for themes and philosophy, but that at its heart, it's still a game and where not meant to sit there and analyze every toe-nail and drop of sweat, and on top of that expect consistency.
It's cool exactly because it's silly over the top, and knows it.

The compilation however, does not embrace its roots, or that kind of mentality. It tries so hard to make FFVII's world into something that it never was to begin with, and the result is an utter lack of congruence, bucket-loads of cringe, and a real blow to the audiences ability to suspend disbelief.
In other words, it isn't cool - because it's silly and over the top but doesn't realize it, and tries to pretend it's still serious fiction.

When nobody on the Shinra ship noticed Nanaki in the sailor uniform in the original game, I would think most people never batted an eye, and just laughed and rolled with it.
It was a joke - a joke that continued a long line of other absurdities that were all presented with equal and casual levels matter-of-factness since Cloud decided it would make more sense to dress up as a woman to sneak into a Mafia hide-out than say, just bust the place up using his super-human strength.

These ironic absurdities are largely absent in the compilation, replaced by un-ironic "absurdities" such characters modeled after J-pop stars reciting poetry...

]I never thought the OG ending was an open ending. It felt more like a cliff-hanging gap kind of thing. With Advent Children, it answered on how humanity survived and began to rebuild their lives while Midgar was obviously abandoned due to the damage Meteor caused. If that never happened, then I never would liked FFVII in the first place.
How so? The entire plot had been resolved at that point. Sephiroth is dead, and the world moved on - as is apparent by the last FMV after the credits.
The only thing that remains unanswered is what happened with the cast and the rest of humanity, however neither of those questions are directly related to the primary story-line which has to do with A.) defeating Sephiroth and B.) Cloud's identity, both issues which were resolved.

A cliff-hanger ending in the context of FFVII would be something like ending the game just as Cloud descends into life stream and faces Sephiroth. That's a cliff hanger.

As, I've already covered in an earlier thread - there is good reason based on the games themes, and dialogue to suggest that humanity survived and that the only reason you don't see any humans in Midgar at the end of the game, is because they abandoned the city - which is reasonable.

Edge from AC is completely nonsensical since Midgar after the meteor-fall and the disuse of Mako reactors would have not have any means of supporting its infrastructure, much less a new city at its edge.
And, since there is no way to grow enough food on the land surrounding Midgar (in AC the surrounding lands is obviously still largely infertile), and no sources of clean water with electricity to pump it, people would have no way of building a new civilization on top of, or near the ruins of Midgar.

The obvious choice for a lot of the former denims of Midgar would be to move to Kalm and the surrounding area, which is fertile and close to water, and if they'd simply set AC in Kalm, it would make that much more sense. Again, bad writing.


The same with the FFX(and it's sequel) and the FFXIII trilogy's director(and I just know, if there'll be a FFX-3, which is very unlikely, that game will suck just as bad as FFX-2.).
You seriously putting FFX in the same FFX-2 and FFXIII in the same camp?
They weren't even directed by the same person.

FFX was directed and produced by Kitase, the very same person who directed the original FFVII.
FFX-2 and FFXIII was directed by Toriyama Motomu, and co-written by a person known as Watanabe Daisuke, so if anything the common factors in the games you dislike here aren't as much Nomura, or Kitase, as much as they are Toriyama and Watanabe - non of which have had any meaningful impact on the rest of the compilation or the original FFVII.


If Tabata were the director in all of the Compilation titles, then maybe things would've been better off. He has the potiental directing material.
This is Tabata's history in directing apart from CC -

Kingdom Hearts Coded
The 3rd Birthday
Final Fantasy Type-0
Final Fantasy Agito

All relatively mediocre titles. We have yet to see how FFXV will turn out, but even in making that title shine, he has less on his record than Kitase and Nomura, even with all the stuff they've made that have been mediocre and/or bad, so I'm not sure it's reasonable to put too much store in his abilities, or think that the rest of the compilation would be better if he had his hands on it.

As for the Cloud, Aerith and Tifa love triangle thing, I think Cloud held feelings for both of them, but still felt too shy, which was why Aerith could(in her scene) found it easy to go on a date with him. I think he had a crush on Tifa since childhood, but for some stupid reason, his mother never allowed him to play with other kids in Nibelhiem(which that's a mystery in and on itself for some stupid reason).
In what world did the plot of FFVII ever state that Cloud wasn't allowed to play with other kids? He explicitly stated he didn't play with them because he thought they were dumb.

And again - the plot of FFVII is ambiguous. Whatever Cloud shows of romantic interest is entirely shaped by player choices through dialogue, and if I remember correctly, the battle mechanics.

Plus, there are good American and Japanese media in two different ways, and then there's the bad media in both said countries. Actually, it's like that in any other country in the world.

And I think the Japanese do just fine with good endings in their media, but that's just me being a good ending kind of fan, so I've never been that much of a gruesome and evil ending kind of thing.
I never implied the opposite. There are good and bad media in all countries. It's still a relatively well known fact that there are difference in trends and story-telling conventions informed by culture, and once such difference is preference in regards to how plots are resolved. Japanese tend to favor open endings. Western European and U.S story-telling tend to be skewed towards closed/resolved endings.


I have hoped that the Remake was both a new story of the original game as well as keeping the legacy of the Compilation alive at the same time(in other words, connecting both of them in a new way to make more sense in the franchise).
Vague. There are many ways to keep the "legacy of the compilation" alive, and I think a lot of debate can be had on what that legacy actually is, and how much of it would pertain to the plot of a remake of the original.

And, as multiple people here have already said - how can anyone reasonably expect the included compilation tie-ins to remain unchanged, when the the very original material is not.
It sounds like you're literally granting the possibility of change to the original to fit with the compilation, but not to the compilation to fit the original, or the new vision of the original.

Do you think that is a reasonable expectation to have for the remake?
 
While I agree with almost everything you said, hian, there's something I got to wonder: however much "we" (I mean, the good folks of TLS forums) have outlined inconsistencies in the Compilation, everybody's keen on putting the blame on Nomura, but I do wonder what part Nojima had in all of this. After all, he's supposed to be the writer behind the whole Compilation. Sure, a finished product could have started from a script from Nojima which could have been layered with nonsensical elements on the top of that, but I would find it very odd if Nojima wouldn't have a say in what became of the final versions of the scenarios/plotlines/dialogues/etc. What do you guys think about Nojima's responsibilities?

On another note: IMO, if the "remake" provides an opportunity to reboot many elements of the Compilation so that the game presents something consistent and coherent in terms of world-building and character development, even if some elements differ from the OG, I'm in.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
I really really don't hate the compilation titles in their own right, and I don't enjoy "bashing" them, since I know there are people (probably even on this forum) with a vested emotional connection to them, who'll feel as if I'm bashing them by proxy. That's not my intent.

When I was in my teens and watched AC for the first time, I friggin' loved that movie. I was starved for more FFVII, which was (and still is) my favorite FF game, and I was in that period of my life where I did watch a lot of anime and had just come off my Matrix binge.
It was perfect in that sense, due to the timing.

However, like when you get really drunk and what seemed awesome at first glance seems trite and dumb on later and more sober consideration, when I had more time to consider the title it became a much more sour experience for me.

In light of that I can see the movie as having great entertainment value - however, I cannot, looking back at the original, say that it did anything that needed to be done, or that it provided an experience that built on the foundations of the original in a way that would satisfy my standards for what I consider to be good sequel material.

Mostly I blame that on the "KEWL" factor of the compilation, and of the times where the compilation was first conceived.
The original FFVII, like almost all pre-FFVII titles, and FFIX (though I loved VIII and X, they really did mark the true shift in style for the franchise), had a very strong element of camp, and of childish slap-stick charm in its presentation (despite also dealing with more serious and adult issues).
These titles were, to my mind, self-aware - much in the same way as Terry Pratchett books.

The danger in just trying to write "seriously" is that it always borders close to the lands of cringe. It requires a natural gravitas and life-experience to be able to write a thorough serious tone without becoming pretentious and cringeworthy, and because this level of skill is usually leaps and bounds beyond writers involved in video-games, I find that the more effective and natural writing for video-games is found when camp and charm is used to mask the rough edges of the writing.
This is what makes games like FFVII, or Metal Gear Solid so good to my mind. The heavy layer of camp lets the players know that everything is up for grabs - that the game and the world might serve as a device for themes and philosophy, but that at its heart, it's still a game and where not meant to sit there and analyze every toe-nail and drop of sweat, and on top of that expect consistency.
It's cool exactly because it's silly over the top, and knows it.

The compilation however, does not embrace its roots, or that kind of mentality. It tries so hard to make FFVII's world into something that it never was to begin with, and the result is an utter lack of congruence, bucket-loads of cringe, and a real blow to the audiences ability to suspend disbelief.
In other words, it isn't cool - because it's silly and over the top but doesn't realize it, and tries to pretend it's still serious fiction.

When nobody on the Shinra ship noticed Nanaki in the sailor uniform in the original game, I would think most people never batted an eye, and just laughed and rolled with it.
It was a joke - a joke that continued a long line of other absurdities that were all presented with equal and casual levels matter-of-factness since Cloud decided it would make more sense to dress up as a woman to sneak into a Mafia hide-out than say, just bust the place up using his super-human strength.

These ironic absurdities are largely absent in the compilation, replaced by un-ironic "absurdities" such characters modeled after J-pop stars reciting poetry...
I suppose we do learn more as we grow up(I'm still learning myself while working on a job as a matter of fact), But then again, I guess everyone views the Compilation differently, as well as viewing the OG ending differently. I enjoyed Advent Children when I first saw it and still love it despite the mistakes they made which was fixed up a little in the Complete version.

Plus, it was Square Enix's decision to do this in the first place. The reason they chose FFVII to have it's own franchise was because, among other lists, in their vision, FFVII held the potiental in continuning the story with new ideas.

I think FFVIII was one of the top lists, but I can see why they didn't choose that game, because one, it didn't have a need to have a sequel, or a prequel(because the backstory is pretty much solved in the Flash-Back Laguna gameplay), and two, that story already had a happy ending.

Though I do have to admit, brining Sephiroth back from the dead only to die again was a bit much.

How so? The entire plot had been resolved at that point. Sephiroth is dead, and the world moved on - as is apparent by the last FMV after the credits.
The only thing that remains unanswered is what happened with the cast and the rest of humanity, however neither of those questions are directly related to the primary story-line which has to do with A.) defeating Sephiroth and B.) Cloud's identity, both issues which were resolved.

A cliff-hanger ending in the context of FFVII would be something like ending the game just as Cloud descends into life stream and faces Sephiroth. That's a cliff hanger.

As, I've already covered in an earlier thread - there is good reason based on the games themes, and dialogue to suggest that humanity survived and that the only reason you don't see any humans in Midgar at the end of the game, is because they abandoned the city - which is reasonable.

Edge from AC is completely nonsensical since Midgar after the meteor-fall and the disuse of Mako reactors would have not have any means of supporting its infrastructure, much less a new city at its edge.
And, since there is no way to grow enough food on the land surrounding Midgar (in AC the surrounding lands is obviously still largely infertile), and no sources of clean water with electricity to pump it, people would have no way of building a new civilization on top of, or near the ruins of Midgar.

The obvious choice for a lot of the former denims of Midgar would be to move to Kalm and the surrounding area, which is fertile and close to water, and if they'd simply set AC in Kalm, it would make that much more sense. Again, bad writing.
Well, it never occured to me. FFVII was awesome until I got to the ending, and just when everything flashed white as the Holy Magic and the Lifestream destroyed Meteor, next thing I knew, it was 500 years later and I seriously thought humanity died out and only Nanaki survived. Seeing Advent Children, reading the On The Way to A Smile Novellas(I like the Case of Nanaki, the Case of Yuffie and the Case ShinRa the best), and even Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core and Before Crisis made me so relieved.

On the side note of the recovering, because the Mako Reactors were no longer used, and there was some water and they're might've been transports from Kalm to Edge for all we know,(plus, Midgar was closer and easier to build a new city because all of the machinery and stuff was far closer than Kalm), and even after the defeat of Omega did the Planet finally started to fully recover, as grass patches were seen in the aftermath of the Deepground incident.

They could've made the story a bit better though, but hey, the Compilation's storyline isn't as bad as the storyline in FFXIII, none of them, save for BC(but that was on a mobile, so that was easily understandable) didn't have a DLC episodes in the first sequel, and then finally make a decent story in the second sequel(Lightning Returns was far the best, considering).

You seriously putting FFX in the same FFX-2 and FFXIII in the same camp?
They weren't even directed by the same person.

FFX was directed and produced by Kitase, the very same person who directed the original FFVII.
FFX-2 and FFXIII was directed by Toriyama Motomu, and co-written by a person known as Watanabe Daisuke, so if anything the common factors in the games you dislike here aren't as much Nomura, or Kitase, as much as they are Toriyama and Watanabe - non of which have had any meaningful impact on the rest of the compilation or the original FFVII.
Sorry. I forgot that Kitase directed FFX. I think he directed Dirge as well, come to think of it. I don't dislike the games, per see(though FFXIII isn't on my liking list, but Lightning Returns has good content, like Bhunivelze), and FFX-2 was good in ending and for a long time, I thought that was the end of the FFX world until they messed up by creating the FFX-2.5 Novella thing and the FFX Audio drama.

And I thought the remake was remaking the original while adding important scenes from the Compilation while fixing up the original at the same time.

This is Tabata's history in directing apart from CC -

Kingdom Hearts Coded
The 3rd Birthday
Final Fantasy Type-0
Final Fantasy Agito

All relatively mediocre titles. We have yet to see how FFXV will turn out, but even in making that title shine, he has less on his record than Kitase and Nomura, even with all the stuff they've made that have been mediocre and/or bad, so I'm not sure it's reasonable to put too much store in his abilities, or think that the rest of the compilation would be better if he had his hands on it.
Huh. I didn't know Kingdom Hearts Coded was directed by Tabata too. I mean, I know for the fact he directed Type-0 and Agito(too bad that game never got an english release either, but I wasn't surprised, considering how much trouble they had with the system), but if things were different, Type-0 to me felt more like the real FFXIII instead of the Lightning trilogy.(I think the Lightning thing was like it's own universe and not Final Fantasy material), but on that note, he likes Crisis Core and Before Crisis.

But then again, FFXV doesn't look half bad considering. I think the only down side with that game(hopefully the only downside) is the voice acting.

Plus, I'm not saying to push him into directing all of the Compilation titles, since his biggest project right now if XV and the poor guy only gets three hours of sleep since they removed Nomura(and good thing too, because with him as the game's director, the game wasn't getting anywhere, but when they removed him and Tabata took over, they made progress a lot quicker.), so after FFXV, he'll probably take about mabye a year or five months the least to get a proper rest and a better night's sleep.

In what world did the plot of FFVII ever state that Cloud wasn't allowed to play with other kids? He explicitly stated he didn't play with them because he thought they were dumb.

And again - the plot of FFVII is ambiguous. Whatever Cloud shows of romantic interest is entirely shaped by player choices through dialogue, and if I remember correctly, the battle mechanics.
Cloud also said during that scene within his mind that he wanted to play with them, but was never allowed in the group, and he did try to save Tifa, but instead got blamed for something that was really Tifa's silliness.

And storywise, I think Cloud was closer to Aerith until her death, whether by player's choice during Gold Saucer or not, and what does the battle mechanics have to do with romance?

I never implied the opposite. There are good and bad media in all countries. It's still a relatively well known fact that there are difference in trends and story-telling conventions informed by culture, and once such difference is preference in regards to how plots are resolved. Japanese tend to favor open endings. Western European and U.S story-telling tend to be skewed towards closed/resolved endings.
Not sure about this kind of situation. I mean, I kinda really prefer the Japense's more adventerous kind of themes like FF, Sailor Moon(original anime), Pokemon, Cardcaptor Sakura, KH, Bravely series, and Chaos Rings 3, and just recently, Tales of Hearts R(remake). I like the more friendlier things like Disney, Shrek, Ice Age, National Treasure and Pirates of the Caribbean, but that's just me, since I'm not much of a grusome, gore or death endings kind of fan.

Vague. There are many ways to keep the "legacy of the compilation" alive, and I think a lot of debate can be had on what that legacy actually is, and how much of it would pertain to the plot of a remake of the original.

And, as multiple people here have already said - how can anyone reasonably expect the included compilation tie-ins to remain unchanged, when the the very original material is not.
It sounds like you're literally granting the possibility of change to the original to fit with the compilation, but not to the compilation to fit the original, or the new vision of the original.

Do you think that is a reasonable expectation to have for the remake?
Like I said, I thought they were redoing the Original in full HD quality, keeping the original story in tact while adding a few new details to the storyline as well as adding the important parts from the Compilation, being a new version of the original and to somewhat fit with the Commpilation.

But the way things are going, now thanks to them, the mystery of Genesis's return in the secret ending of Dirge of Cerberus was a waste of time, and even Crisis Core was a waste of time if they never made that secret ending, then the prequel never would've existed. Thanks to them, that'll be left in the darkness forever, which sucks. It's a gap that'll never be answered.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
Honestly I'm sure that fanfic writers can satisfy it if they ever announce that there will be no more games. Imo after a succesful FF7 trilogy or whatever they will most definitely make an FFVII-2 set one year after DOC so calm your boots they'll take your money eventually
 
Yeah I can't say I follow your logic. If they were making a direct remake of precisely VII's story and nothing more, that would mean they plan to continue Dirge's secret ending, but because the remake is going to include Compilation stuff that means they won't? What?

Also Kitase did not direct Dirge, it was was a completely different team. Some dude named Takayoshi Nakazato directed it.
 
While I agree with almost everything you said, hian, there's something I got to wonder: however much "we" (I mean, the good folks of TLS forums) have outlined inconsistencies in the Compilation, everybody's keen on putting the blame on Nomura, but I do wonder what part Nojima had in all of this. After all, he's supposed to be the writer behind the whole Compilation. Sure, a finished product could have started from a script from Nojima which could have been layered with nonsensical elements on the top of that, but I would find it very odd if Nojima wouldn't have a say in what became of the final versions of the scenarios/plotlines/dialogues/etc. What do you guys think about Nojima's responsibilities?
The reason I personally put more "blame" on Nomura, is because Nojima wrote the original, and has also written other things that are fine. The role of the writer, although it can be different from game to game, is often simply to write out the concepts they're given by producers and directors, although they of course often have some impact during the brain-storming sessions leading up to the final scenario.

The reason I think this is important when considering the various responsibilities is because Nojima's work, and development conventions leads a lot of weight to the possibility that Nojima's work is largely framed by what material and directives he's given to work with, and the primary person who would have provided him that material and those directives would be people like the producer and the director, one of which in the case of the compilation titles are very often Nomura.

It also bears mentioning that a large part of my problem with the compilation title aren't necessarily the general gist of the writing and dialogue as much as it is the visual presentation of the world.

The technological gap from the original to the compilation for instance, is a matter of scenario and visual style, less so than it is one of writing, since Nojima is not a writer in the same sense as a novelist.
Nojima doesn't write the design of locations and vehicles etc. and then pass it on to the visual designers, the visual designs are decided upon by the lead artists and the producer and director, whilst the writer is largely responsible for the dialogue, and the scenario writer being largely responsible for the plot.

That being said - Genesis's dialogue etc. parts of what make him unbearable to my mind, was presumably written by Nojima (although it could have been written by Watanabe), so there's that.

Personally, as I've said in other threads - I don't blame Nomura, Kitase, or Nojima as much as I blame the absence of Sakaguchi, which I've always suspected based on history, interviews, and conversations, to be the father of the various aspects I personally enjoyed as the staples of the pre-SE Final Fantasies.
If Sakaguchi hadn't been there, I suspect FF games would always have been more like the SE FF games.
It's not that these guys suddenly devolved or changed styles - rather that they now work without Sakaguchi influencing the end-product, and labor under the directives of the SE shareholders.

I think this becomes pretty apparent when games like the Last Story pretty much retains the classical narrative structure and style of Final Fantasy (although with drastic game-play changes).

Plus, it was Square Enix's decision to do this in the first place. The reason they chose FFVII to have it's own franchise was because, among other lists, in their vision, FFVII held the potiental in continuning the story with new ideas.
I doubt that's a real reason. Any of the FF games could be expanded the way the compilation was. If you're not going to adhere to the style or narrative structure of the original title, you can do whatever you want with a sequel or prequel in either case.

FFVII is Square's number 1 selling FF game. That's the only reason. No other game has been more profitable when you control for inflation and price changes.
Despite the gaming industry, and gaming population increasing every year, the other games aren't overtaking FFVII. That's saying something.
That literally makes FFVII continuations one of the possibly most lucrative ventures for SE in terms of FF products.


On the side note of the recovering, because the Mako Reactors were no longer used, and there was some water and they're might've been transports from Kalm to Edge for all we know,(plus, Midgar was closer and easier to build a new city because all of the machinery and stuff was far closer than Kalm), and even after the defeat of Omega did the Planet finally started to fully recover, as grass patches were seen in the aftermath of the Deepground incident.
No. You cannot support a town/city the size of Edge comprised of all the survivors from Midgar purely on water and food transported from Kalm, a relatively small town, when there no infrastructure like roads and no sign of modern means of transportation going on between the two towns (notice that this lack is consistent in both the original game and AC).

It is not easier to build a new city on top of another city who's entire infrastructure has failed and you have no way of revitalizing.
"The machinery and stuff" ran on Mako energy, of which there is now nothing because the reactors are no longer in use.

There is no possible sensible universe in which it makes sense for the denims of Midgar to struggle in the ruins of Midgar far away from water and fertile soil trying to build a new civilization on top of a failed infrastructure without any means of stable energy, when all they have to do is walk for a couple of days to Kalm, and start over there where literally all conditions are more favorable for life.

FFVII's original ending makes perfect sense in that regards. People ditched Midgar and moved on to, literally, greener pastures.

Plus, I'm not saying to push him into directing all of the Compilation titles,
I didn't say or imply that you said such a thing. I was criticizing what seemed to be the ease with which you assume that the primary issue with the compilation is due to Nomura, and that Tabata would naturally have been a better choice.

I'm saying there isn't much distinction there, and that to whatever degree there is a lack of quality in the compilation, that is more likely due to company policy etc. than any one individual (although I don't think the compilation would ever have been a thing if Sakaguchi was the head of the company).

Cloud also said during that scene within his mind that he wanted to play with them, but was never allowed in the group, and he did try to save Tifa, but instead got blamed for something that was really Tifa's silliness.
And never did he say that it was his mother doing this. The person who blamed Cloud for Tifa's fall was the villagers, with Tifa's father at the helm, not Cloud's mother.

It's quite apparent that Cloud not function with the group is a result of group dynamics, with the other kids Tifa hanging out with not being great fans of Cloud, probably because Cloud's not a great fan of them either - not something being foisted on Cloud by his mother.


And storywise, I think Cloud was closer to Aerith until her death, whether by player's choice during Gold Saucer or not, and what does the battle mechanics have to do with romance?
Again, that depends on how you play the game. You can literally not have Aerith in your party for most of the game leading up to her death, and give her a relatively cold shoulder up until her death.

The romance in FFVII which reached a peak with the date scene at Gold Saucer, is calculated with a point system, where dialogue options award points with different characters. Battle mechanics in FFVII, if I'm not misremembering, also impact this by giving points based on certain support actions.


]Not sure about this kind of situation. I mean, I kinda really prefer the Japense's more adventerous kind of themes like FF, Sailor Moon(original anime), Pokemon, Cardcaptor Sakura, KH, Bravely series, and Chaos Rings 3, and just recently, Tales of Hearts R(remake). I like the more friendlier things like Disney, Shrek, Ice Age, National Treasure and Pirates of the Caribbean, but that's just me, since I'm not much of a grusome, gore or death endings kind of fan.
That literally has nothing to do what so ever about what I'm talking about.
Open endings have nothing to do with gore or death. It has to do with whether or not certain plot-lines remain open for the audience to interpret.

Watch almost any Japanese movie/drama/anime with romance elements and notice how they almost always end without the protagonist selecting one particular girl/guy, although it might heavily imply it.
This is literally done for the purpose of not alienating certain fans.
It's literally done so that, in FFVII for instance, Aerith fans won't feel snuffed by Cloud selecting Tifa, or vice versa.
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
The reason I personally put more "blame" on Nomura, is because Nojima wrote the original, and has also written other things that are fine. The role of the writer, although it can be different from game to game, is often simply to write out the concepts they're given by producers and directors, although they of course often have some impact during the brain-storming sessions leading up to the final scenario.

The reason I think this is important when considering the various responsibilities is because Nojima's work, and development conventions leads a lot of weight to the possibility that Nojima's work is largely framed by what material and directives he's given to work with, and the primary person who would have provided him that material and those directives would be people like the producer and the director, one of which in the case of the compilation titles are very often Nomura.

It also bears mentioning that a large part of my problem with the compilation title aren't necessarily the general gist of the writing and dialogue as much as it is the visual presentation of the world.

The technological gap from the original to the compilation for instance, is a matter of scenario and visual style, less so than it is one of writing, since Nojima is not a writer in the same sense as a novelist.
Nojima doesn't write the design of locations and vehicles etc. and then pass it on to the visual designers, the visual designs are decided upon by the lead artists and the producer and director, whilst the writer is largely responsible for the dialogue, and the scenario writer being largely responsible for the plot.

That being said - Genesis's dialogue etc. parts of what make him unbearable to my mind, was presumably written by Nojima (although it could have been written by Watanabe), so there's that.

Personally, as I've said in other threads - I don't blame Nomura, Kitase, or Nojima as much as I blame the absence of Sakaguchi, which I've always suspected based on history, interviews, and conversations, to be the father of the various aspects I personally enjoyed as the staples of the pre-SE Final Fantasies.
If Sakaguchi hadn't been there, I suspect FF games would always have been more like the SE FF games.
It's not that these guys suddenly devolved or changed styles - rather that they now work without Sakaguchi influencing the end-product, and labor under the directives of the SE shareholders.

I think this becomes pretty apparent when games like the Last Story pretty much retains the classical narrative structure and style of Final Fantasy (although with drastic game-play changes).
At least the Compilation isn't as bad as the novel "Fifty Shades of Gray" which my mother and I call it "Fifty Shades of Boring", since she only got as to three pages and then never read it again.

Then again, who are we to tell Square Enix how to do Final Fantasy VII games to our sastifaction? They very clearly don't know how fans would react. *Shrugs* and I kinda agree with you on the "Blame" on Nomura.

Plus, the original team's gone, except for Nomura, Kitase and Nojima. I just think that they made a very bad mistake to place Nomura as director instead of Kitase for the remake instead of the other way around. From what I can understand now, Nomura can direct Kingdom Hearts, but not direct Final Fantasy.

And you'd be surprised how many fanfiction authors in many sites write and add Genesis in them. He's kinda one of those antagonists who somewhat start to turn good, but something might happen regards to if (hopefully) the remake is a success...(I still rather doubt it.)

I doubt that's a real reason. Any of the FF games could be expanded the way the compilation was. If you're not going to adhere to the style or narrative structure of the original title, you can do whatever you want with a sequel or prequel in either case.

FFVII is Square's number 1 selling FF game. That's the only reason. No other game has been more profitable when you control for inflation and price changes.
Despite the gaming industry, and gaming population increasing every year, the other games aren't overtaking FFVII. That's saying something.
That literally makes FFVII continuations one of the possibly most lucrative ventures for SE in terms of FF products.
I guess that's true, but I still liked FFVIII and FFX. Plus, Cloud is used more often than other FF characters...until Lightning came along and now it's a compitition between the two, and, personlly, I'd cheer Cloud on anyday.

No. You cannot support a town/city the size of Edge comprised of all the survivors from Midgar purely on water and food transported from Kalm, a relatively small town, when there no infrastructure like roads and no sign of modern means of transportation going on between the two towns (notice that this lack is consistent in both the original game and AC).

It is not easier to build a new city on top of another city who's entire infrastructure has failed and you have no way of revitalizing.
"The machinery and stuff" ran on Mako energy, of which there is now nothing because the reactors are no longer in use.

There is no possible sensible universe in which it makes sense for the denims of Midgar to struggle in the ruins of Midgar far away from water and fertile soil trying to build a new civilization on top of a failed infrastructure without any means of stable energy, when all they have to do is walk for a couple of days to Kalm, and start over there where literally all conditions are more favorable for life.

FFVII's original ending makes perfect sense in that regards. People ditched Midgar and moved on to, literally, greener pastures.
Uh, you do realise we're talking about a universe where things are completely different compared to reality, right? And this is Square Enix who made these decisions.

FFVII's original ending didn't make sense to me and to this day, still doesn't.(And the laughter in the said ending gave me the creeps).

I didn't say or imply that you said such a thing. I was criticizing what seemed to be the ease with which you assume that the primary issue with the compilation is due to Nomura, and that Tabata would naturally have been a better choice.

I'm saying there isn't much distinction there, and that to whatever degree there is a lack of quality in the compilation, that is more likely due to company policy etc. than any one individual (although I don't think the compilation would ever have been a thing if Sakaguchi was the head of the company).
I know. I was just kinda pointing out considering how messed up he's been doing the past few years lately with his current projects, and I just know that, with him as director(unless Kitase makes some advising points to him since he's the producer), the Remake is going to take forever.

What did happen to Sakaguchi anyway?

And never did he say that it was his mother doing this. The person who blamed Cloud for Tifa's fall was the villagers, with Tifa's father at the helm, not Cloud's mother.

It's quite apparent that Cloud not function with the group is a result of group dynamics, with the other kids Tifa hanging out with not being great fans of Cloud, probably because Cloud's not a great fan of them either - not something being foisted on Cloud by his mother.
Yeah, well, I kinda assumed that his mother didn't want this to happen, but she wanted to keep him safe, but, well, I guess she wasn't that good of a mother back then, despite the Cloud loved her, and I do know how the villagers and Tifa's father blamed Cloud without giving him a chance to explain himself, which, that was rather cruel and really unfair.

Again, that depends on how you play the game. You can literally not have Aerith in your party for most of the game leading up to her death, and give her a relatively cold shoulder up until her death.

The romance in FFVII which reached a peak with the date scene at Gold Saucer, is calculated with a point system, where dialogue options award points with different characters. Battle mechanics in FFVII, if I'm not misremembering, also impact this by giving points based on certain support actions.
...Never thought of that either. But then again, to tell the truth, despite that I like the closeness of Cloud and his friends and many others, I guess I'm just not that kind of a romantic person, and I'm fine with that.

That literally has nothing to do what so ever about what I'm talking about.
Open endings have nothing to do with gore or death. It has to do with whether or not certain plot-lines remain open for the audience to interpret.

Watch almost any Japanese movie/drama/anime with romance elements and notice how they almost always end without the protagonist selecting one particular girl/guy, although it might heavily imply it.
This is literally done for the purpose of not alienating certain fans.
It's literally done so that, in FFVII for instance, Aerith fans won't feel snuffed by Cloud selecting Tifa, or vice versa.
Guess that's also true. Guess I'm picky when it comes to things like that. Plus, Aerith and Tifa are more best friends than rivals and are close to Cloud in friendship.

Unlike Elena who has a crush on Tseng(which took Reno by surprise, I'm looking forward in seeing his reaction to that in the remake, lol.)
 
Then again, who are we to tell Square Enix how to do Final Fantasy VII games to our sastifaction?
Freedom of speech and all that. Everybody has a right to their opinion, and that includes criticisms. SE are entitled to make whatever they want - and I'm entitled to dislike it or like it respectively.

Me not liking it, and saying as much is not an indication that I expect them to change their stuff to my every whim. It's simply me making a statement about my thoughts on their products.


Uh, you do realise we're talking about a universe where things are completely different compared to reality, right?
Except when it isn't. Humans in FFVII still eat, drink and require electricity to get stuff done.
The presence of certain fantastical elements doesn't change the fact that it's also being portrayed as a world operating with certain rules. Whether those rules reflect entirely our own or not, is a moot point - the point is whether those rules are internally consistent.

FFVII features a world where humans eat, drink, rely on power, where the earth withers, and where Midgar's infrastructure is dependent on Mako energy.

My argument does not rest solely on assumptions of similarities to our world (of which there are many in either case), but on what should be logically true based on the very rules that the game sets out for itself through the plot.

And this is Square Enix who made these decisions.
And that's irrelevant. SE making decisions says nothing about whether those decisions are bad or not.
My contention is that SE direction and choices for how they developed FFVII's world after the original game have been bad.
Saying "SE made those choices" is not a response to that.

I know. I was just kinda pointing out considering how messed up he's been doing the past few years lately with his current projects, and I just know that, with him as director(unless Kitase makes some advising points to him since he's the producer), the Remake is going to take forever.
Nah, the remake will be released in good time. It has to be for financial reasons. Chances are the remake is under a dead-line in terms of both funds and time, due to the fact that FFXV is not out yet, and has yet to make a revenue despite the enormous cost tied to its development.

In fact, I'd make the argument that we're more likely to see a rushed product rather than a delayed one.

What did happen to Sakaguchi anyway?
Depends on who you talk with, but the common consensus among my Japanese dev friends, some of which worked with the man, is that it was a combination of internal pressure, and of wanting to do something else with his career.
He essentially a choice between taking his hat and leaving, or working under conditions that wouldn't be particularly favorable for him, and so it wasn't really a choice at all.
 
The technological gap from the original to the compilation for instance, is a matter of scenario and visual style, less so than it is one of writing, since Nojima is not a writer in the same sense as a novelist.
Nojima doesn't write the design of locations and vehicles etc. and then pass it on to the visual designers, the visual designs are decided upon by the lead artists and the producer and director, whilst the writer is largely responsible for the dialogue, and the scenario writer being largely responsible for the plot.
As a passing note: I very much agree regarding the technological inconsistencies between the OG and the Compilation - IMO it's even more blatant in Dirge of Cerberus than AC/C, they featured lots of technological gadgets because they looked cool without any regard to the level of technology displayed in the OG (which have that distinct "late '90s" vibe). To me, I found the very same problem when watching Star Wars Episode 1 where the world looked far more advanced than in Episode IV, while it was supposed to take place some 30 years earlier before the rise of a military empire. IMO the issue on technological consistency should be addressed in the remake.
 
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