Hopes for Remake & Rebirth (story/content)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm sure you're right, hian, but the obsessive creator-fans are a very squeaky wheel, even if they are only a vocal minority.

 

[Clement Rage]

s opposed to the dozens of other super secrets that the party/player finds out during FFVII?

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. When I was a kid I was sold on the idea of secrets being so secret that nobody ever finds out but I think when I joined the Navy the concept fell apart as preposterous when you start seeing shit that's supposed to be SUPER SECRET accidentally divulged in emails, voicemail messages, slips of paper that people forget in the mess hall, divulged to their booty calls, etc etc.

Oh, sure, but in that case it's all kinds of random secrets, not specifically all the plot important ones.

I mean, CC and BC have nods, but BC references everything, and it starts becoming very inorganic to have your leads just so happen to interact with every single secret in the setting (and that's for the people whose specific job is dealing with secrets).

Why would Genesis' existence need to be covered up in the first place? It's not like FF7 established that no other SOLDIER 1sts were well known.

 

[ChipNoir]

s opposed to the dozens of other super secrets that the party/player finds out during FFVII?

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. When I was a kid I was sold on the idea of secrets being so secret that nobody ever finds out but I think when I joined the Navy the concept fell apart as preposterous when you start seeing shit that's supposed to be SUPER SECRET accidentally divulged in emails, voicemail messages, slips of paper that people forget in the mess hall, divulged to their booty calls, etc etc.

Oh, sure, but in that case it's all kinds of random secrets, not specifically all the plot important ones.

I mean, CC and BC have nods, but BC references everything, and it starts becoming very inorganic to have your leads just so happen to interact with every single secret in the setting (and that's for the people whose specific job is dealing with secrets).

Why would Genesis' existence need to be covered up in the first place? It's not like FF7 established that no other SOLDIER 1sts were well known.

Because ShinRa canonically keeps a tight lid on everything they can if it keeps the company from looking bad. That's why they salted the earth as far as Banora is concerned. The idea that there's a super human out there that they can't confirm as dead, but with every bit as strength as Sephiroth would not only make ShinRa look bad, but cause a major panic in the public knowing their beloved government can't protect them from such a threat.

Tifa herself says it: ShinRa controls the news. They rebuilt Nibelhiem from the ground up and hid any of the truth about Sephiroth. Genesis would be just as an important secret to keep. They would have wanted the people to think that Genesis had died in battle, not defected. The idea that super human soldiers created by ShinRa could go rogue and attack the public would be a fatal blow to the trust the people put in them, and risk a mass revolution.

 

[Tashasaurous]

s opposed to the dozens of other super secrets that the party/player finds out during FFVII?

Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. When I was a kid I was sold on the idea of secrets being so secret that nobody ever finds out but I think when I joined the Navy the concept fell apart as preposterous when you start seeing shit that's supposed to be SUPER SECRET accidentally divulged in emails, voicemail messages, slips of paper that people forget in the mess hall, divulged to their booty calls, etc etc.

Oh, sure, but in that case it's all kinds of random secrets, not specifically all the plot important ones.

I mean, CC and BC have nods, but BC references everything, and it starts becoming very inorganic to have your leads just so happen to interact with every single secret in the setting (and that's for the people whose specific job is dealing with secrets).

Why would Genesis' existence need to be covered up in the first place? It's not like FF7 established that no other SOLDIER 1sts were well known.

Because ShinRa canonically keeps a tight lid on everything they can if it keeps the company from looking bad. That's why they salted the earth as far as Banora is concerned. The idea that there's a super human out there that they can't confirm as dead, but with every bit as strength as Sephiroth would not only make ShinRa look bad, but cause a major panic in the public knowing their beloved government can't protect them from such a threat.

Tifa herself says it: ShinRa controls the news. They rebuilt Nibelhiem from the ground up and hid any of the truth about Sephiroth. Genesis would be just as an important secret to keep. They would have wanted the people to think that Genesis had died in battle, not defected. The idea that super human soldiers created by ShinRa could go rogue and attack the public would be a fatal blow to the trust the people put in them, and risk a mass revolution.

And it's what Reeve/Cait Sith had said before Scarlet and Heidegger were killed.

"All Shinra ever cared about was its own interests, and protecting those interests. That's why SOLDIER—and people like Sephiroth—were created. Fighting, money, power, that's all they ever cared about!"

Why bother revealing these things to the public if it'll just ruin Shinra's reputation anyway? They make false claims on most things to hide the real truth.

 

[Roger]

Revealing and investing inordinate sums of money towarda convincing the people that mutiple devasting attacks on Midgar and every place in the world that has a Mako Reactor never happened by people that bear wellknown SOLDIER First Class Genesis' face never happened are different things.

 

[Ite]

“Whaddya MEAN the Compilation makes no sense!?” - 2007

 

[Tashasaurous]

“Whaddya MEAN the Compilation makes no sense!?” - 2007

Made sense to me. The only thing in the Compilation that didn't make sense, I have to admit, is the secret ending of Dirge of Cerberus. I mean, I think most people would want to know what Genesis has in mind with Weiss' dead body.

Everything else made perfect sense.

 

[Roger]

I'm fine with it not making sense, but the only thing that tells us Genesis needs to be hidden are skippable reports in DoC. Why utterly contradict the actually popular Compilation for that? Might as well hold true to Sephiroth jumping to his doom instead of Cloud throwing him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just saying this - do not to expect compilation material (as in ideas/concept/characters) to be absent, but at the same time do not expect that material to be faithful to the titles from which they were pulled/derived, or to be handled in the same way.

That's probably the most realistic way to approach this work IMO, and I think that could turn out either way.
I don't think basing new ideas on the ideas of the compilation is bad.
The real bad thing IMO would be to simply mindlessly insert references to it, acting as if AC and CC are canon as is to the remake's new narrative.

Would you say that's not a possibility? Given the often ... let's call it "incongruent" ... blend of the Compilation and the original game, might they not look at the Compilation and say "It would be fairly easy to do the remake consistent with the Compilation" in terms of aesthetics, technology, the occasional differing plot detail, etc.?

I'm not expecting them to, mind you. They'll probably want to leave doors open to themselves to expand the remake with new side material without shackling themselves to the boundaries that would come with strict adherence to CC, DC, etc.

For that matter, I'm of course hoping they're more concerned with creating something in line with the original thematically, aesthetically and in terms of sensibilities -- though we already know they'll have to rework some things (e.g. gameplay mechanics, aspects of Wall Market). It would be nice to finally have a reasonably consistent franchise, though.

At the very least, I hope they do what you spoke of -- i.e. in much the same way the Compilation titles could be said to reference "some version" of the original game, hopefully this remake references "some version" of the Compilation.

“Whaddya MEAN the Compilation makes no sense!?” - 2007

Made sense to me.

It has numerous inconsistencies with the original game, and even among the Compilation titles themselves.

Though I don't recall anyone ever saying the comment Ite "quoted," especially not by 2007.

 

[ForceStealer]

Revealing and investing inordinate sums of money towarda convincing the people that mutiple devasting attacks on Midgar and every place in the world that has a Mako Reactor never happened by people that bear wellknown SOLDIER First Class Genesis' face never happened are different things.

Old man tried to control the world with money. It seems to have been working

But like I said, they don't need to pretend the Compilation doesn't exist. Just pretend they did it right. And, frankly, we should probably stop expecting Square to give a shit about continuity. They obviously don't, and in this case it's a good thing, they'll take bits of the Compilation that work, and ignore stuff that doesn't.

 

[hleV]

Compilation gave normal human characters superhuman feats, whereas in OG it wasn't obvious whether they have them or they just help Cloud (and Vincent and Red) with materia mostly.

 

[ChipNoir]

Compilation gave normal human characters superhuman feats, whereas in OG it wasn't obvious whether they have them or they just help Cloud (and Vincent and Red) with materia mostly.

*points at limit breaks* Normal humans don't do things like that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It also wasn't clear at that time whether some of the Limit Breaks were simply gameplay mechanics. =P

 

[Shademp]

It also wasn't clear at that time whether some of the Limit Breaks were simply gameplay mechanics.

Precisely. The original game still had the vagueness of a potential huge divide between gameplay and field events. Even with field events (Tifa surviving a long fall from the Junon walls and landing on the Sister Ray, Yuffie jumping super-high etc) it was unclear how much was due to the cartoony presentation or actual hints of supposed in-universe physics and human superpowers.

The Compilation obliterated much of that ambiguous divide between gameplay and cutscenes, making it perfectly clear what outlandish feats that fighters in FFVII (both human and enhanced) can perform.

 

[ForceStealer]

We aren't suggesting we want the limit breaks toned down, are we? Because if Yuffie can't tear apart the very earth or Barret can't call in a laser strike from atmospheric satellites, that is not okay.

 

[hleV]

Why all that SOLDIER jazz if ShinRa could hire a few trained men with unearthly abilities?

Humans should be humans. SOLDIERs something else. Cloud's procedure lasted 4 years, make it look like he's that much superior!

Vincent is OK.
Red can do whatever he pleases, as the abilities of his kind are unclear.
Cait Sith shouldn't be insanely inhuman, otherwise, again, SOLDIERs lose purpose when ShinRa can create just as good robots and whatnot.

The rest should stick to materia and [peak] human abilities (martial arts, shooting, acrobatics, piloting a ship).

 

[Clement Rage]

The idea that there's a super human out there that they can't confirm as dead, but with every bit as strength as Sephiroth would not only make ShinRa look bad, but cause a major panic in the public knowing their beloved government can't protect them from such a threat.

So report him dead. Genesis copies dissolve on death, and most people that get to see them up close aren't going to live to tell the tale.

Seems easier to do that than pretend the man with the giant fanclub never existed.

 

[ChipNoir]

Why all that SOLDIER jazz if ShinRa could hire a few trained men with unearthly abilities?

Humans should be humans. SOLDIERs something else. Cloud's procedure lasted 4 years, make it look like he's that much superior!

Vincent is OK.
Red can do whatever he pleases, as the abilities of his kind are unclear.
Cait Sith shouldn't be insanely inhuman, otherwise, again, SOLDIERs lose purpose when ShinRa can create just as good robots and whatnot.

The rest should stick to materia and [peak] human abilities (martial arts, shooting, acrobatics, piloting a ship).

However strong anyone else gets, Cloud is going to be stronger by default, so there's no clash of canon.

Each of the characters also has gone through a hell of a lot more combat experience than even a ShinRa military person would be used to, and they're only trained to deal with an old fashioned army and whatever monsters are running amuk. Soldier is peak only because nobody else has even tried to surpass it. Zangan could probably give them a run for their money though.

Bottom line is though most people just don't have the same exposure to enforce growth. Exceptions of course being other extreme cases like Dyne for example.

 

[Shademp]

Why all that SOLDIER jazz if ShinRa could hire a few trained men with unearthly abilities?

This bit doesn't bother me since the Compilation still demonstrates decently enough a power level difference between SOLDIER and normal humans. But yes, it would certainly be *easier* for the audience to gauge the difference between humans and SOLDIER if humans in FFVII were equal to real-life humans, which (at least some of them) demonstrably are not.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It also wasn't clear at that time whether some of the Limit Breaks were simply gameplay mechanics. =P

Beginner's Hall always was always big for how I saw that, because you essentially have a couple of regular slum kids fighting, and then you see her knock the everliving hell out of him when she gets a limit break – so it always seemed like it was something that was supposed to have SOME sort of basis in the functional mechanics of people in the world.

It's just that the game turns that up to 11 with your party, because you're off adventuring and doing things that most no one else would ever be exposed to. I always figured that your average FFVII person had access to the equivalent of a LV1 Limit Break, and most folks would never get beyond that in their day-to-day life. Aside from that, most people still move around like regular people, and generally possess human capabilities, and augmented that with Materia for any sort of magic or special abilities.

As further evidence of that, we see Aerith having trouble following after Cloud when they escape the church and Barret getting tired when running up the ShinRa HQ stairs. Then you have folks like Yuffie & Cloud who get special Ninja training and SOLDIER modifications that make them somewhat supernatural to the average person's innate physical capabilities for running and jumping. Aaand then there's Vincent & Sephiroth hovering and other properly full-blown supernatural abilities.


tl;dr – I never saw Limit Breaks as being exclusive to our party's characters & most regular humans are still regular humans aside from that.





X

 

[ChipNoir]

By compilation mythos, Nomura said that all of the characters were actually gaining levels, and Cloud broke level 99 or something to that effect.

So basically yeah, you fight, you survive, you earn the ability to do crazy shit. Anyone can do, just few have tried or have just died trying. Survival of the fittest.

 

[hian]

Would you say that's not a possibility? Given the often ... let's call it "incongruent" ... blend of the Compilation and the original game, might they not look at the Compilation and say "It would be fairly easy to do the remake consistent with the Compilation" in terms of aesthetics, technology, the occasional differing plot detail, etc.?

It's a possible route to be sure - I'm just saying, again pacing myself, not something people should be expecting.

FFVIIR, I highly likely to be as different from the original game, as it is different from the compilation. And, IMO, that's probably a good thing.
Forcing the remake to be consistent with the compilation is, again IMO, inherently going to negatively impact its quality.

I think, as you kind of touch on, creative freedom is a big thing for the team atm. They'll write the story they think is best, and use the framework and ideas from the FFVII franchise to build it, but with no concern for whether it is consistent or ties together with it.
It's its own continuity, and personally, I'm okay with that.

@hian

What is your opinion on this particular reference-idea for the remake?

It's already been long visualized in my head that the player might find obscure references by hacking into Scarlet's and/or Heidegger's computer(s). The player might then find references to Deepground, Tsviets, Synaptic Net Dives etc either as the names to folders that the player can't open, or as revealed keywords in encrypted documents that the player (or some tech-savvy NPC) have only managed to partially decrypt.

I picture these optional references being available either during the infiltration of Shinra HQ, the "disc 2" revisit to Midgar or after the fall of Shinra (or all of these aforementioned instances).

I think that's a perfectly valid way of doing it, if they end up including stuff like Deepground.

Personally though, that's some of the stuff that I really don't like from the compilation.
Words like "Deepground, Tsviets, Synaptic Net, Modeoheim", and stuff like the VR room in the Shinra Building, pretty much sum up most of my issues with the comp.

I think almost all those additional elements to the FFVII world were really quite bad. They're stylistically/thematically/aesthetically inconsistent with the OG in so many ways. If they want to do use the base ideas of those things, they should reconceptualize them.
Or alternatively, restructure the entire world of FFVII to better accomodate them.
I see the latter as being unlikely though.

But adding nods, or building lore through documents found in in places like Shinra mansion, Shinra Building, or just talking to Shinra employees in dingy bars, I think is workable and tasteful.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

While I wouldn't really mind if it was the case, you mentioned that the FFVIIR would be a new continuity from the original FFVII series; what is the source of this info?

 

[Vyzzuvazzadth]

Nomura notes Final Fantasy VII Remake is a title “loaded with a lot of mystery for now” with the existing Compilation of FFVII seemingly off the table. “If we make a compilation, these games will hardly have an overall coherence,” said Nomura about Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, etc. “It will be difficult because there is no more continuity between the Compilation and Remake for the moment.”

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2017/02/final-fantasy-vii-remake-will-retain-essence-original/

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Ah! That I didn't know!