SPOILERS Split from "Hopes for the remake (story/content)"

[Mayo Master]

If you assume the plot will be rather different past Midgar, that really opens up a lot of different options for pacing and where to put the game breaks.

I agree. IMO FF7R part 2 doesn't even have to begin with Cloud's flashback in Kalm, seeing that Aerith seemed the one to lead the party to track down Sephiroth at the end of part 1 - they already have a motivation and Cloud doesn't need to tell his tale. So who knows how they'll take the story from here.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Seasonal TV Series have this kind of cliffhanger especially when the character has designed for people to be invented but story doesn't end yet.

I mean, killing a character off at the end of a season isn’t an unusual idea either... Note to self: look under the wheelchair.

they already have a motivation and Cloud doesn't need to tell his tale. So who knows how they'll take the story from here.

Some arbitrary changes aren’t really necessary though, the Nibelheim flashback would make a hell of an opening and I personally can’t think of a better way to start the next part

 

[eleamaya]

I mean, killing a character off at the end of a season isn’t an unusual idea either... Note to self: look under the wheelchair.

Ah yes, I should've be specific that I compare Aerith and Glenn's death like a gamble hehe, would these adorable and favorite characters survive, thus cliffhanger is needed. OG doesn't have that narrative since we really had no idea she would die.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Ah yes, but I compare Aerith and Glenn's death like a gamble hehe, would these adorable and favorite characters survive, thus cliffhanger is needed. OG doesn't have that narrative since we really had no idea she would die.

There’s already a lot of chatter about Aerith’s fate from OG fans so in a way what you’re describing is already happening now, aside from that, new fans who don’t know about her death (as few as there may be) probably won’t expect it at this point so it would be a surprise to them anyways if they manage to avoid spoilers

 

[LNK]

There’s already a lot of chatter about Aerith’s fate from OG fans so in a way what you’re describing is already happening now, aside from that, new fans who don’t know about her death (as few as there may be) probably won’t expect it at this point so it would be a surprise to them anyways if they manage to avoid spoilers

Which is exactly why I don't look at those visions as if Aerith knows she's going to die. The only reason why people look at it that way, is if they played the OG. Its not like any of those visions show her being killed or dead

 

[Mayo Master]

Some arbitrary changes aren’t really necessary though, the Nibelheim flashback would make a hell of an opening and I personally can’t think of a better way to start the next part

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that.
What I would do is start with the Nibelheim flashback, but retell the story as Cloud's dream, rather than him telling the tale to the whole gang.
In the OG, I found awkward that he told his version and Tifa never called out his inconsistencies till the Northern Crater. IMO it would make more sense that Tifa doesn't question him because he never shares his version in the first place.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Which is exactly why I don't look at those visions as if Aerith knows she's going to die. The only reason why people look at it that way, is if they played the OG. Its not like any of those visions show her being killed or dead

Well, those visions are from Cloud’s perspective mostly so he doesn’t know about Aerith’s death. I think the idea of Aerith having some degree of awareness of her fate has less to do with the visions Cloud (and by extension, us) sees and more to do with her suspicious remarks and actions throughout the game.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that.
What I would do is start with the Nibelheim flashback, but retell the story as Cloud's dream, rather than him telling the tale to the whole gang.
In the OG, I found awkward that he told his version and Tifa never called out his inconsistencies till the Northern Crater. IMO it would make more sense that Tifa doesn't question him because he never shares his version in the first place.

I thought the OG explained her reasoning for withholding information and as flawed of a decision that may have been on Tifa’s end, I interpreted it as her being afraid of messing up Cloud even further

 

[eleamaya]

Which is exactly why I don't look at those visions as if Aerith knows she's going to die. The only reason why people look at it that way, is if they played the OG. Its not like any of those visions show her being killed or dead

It's not about Aerith knows she's gonna die, but us, the players. The new fans who really have no idea about her death (assuming they really avoid spoiler) are the few ones in number. Kitase even wants new fans who finish Remake Part 1 then play OG and Aerith's death is too iconic. So, the majority (new and old) is given the narrative that they know she'd die but there's a chance to save her with Arbiters of Fate meta and Zack's victory mystery. Even if you still expect her to die, a cliffhanger in Gongaga (that she left the party after the big event in Temple of Ancient as climax/final boss battle) would make you ask if she really would die, leave it in the unknown future again. Barret and Tifa's conversation as they walk out of Gongaga Inn is parallel with Part 1 ending.

Assuming it'd be 75% the same at least and people expect the part covering the rest of disc 1 OG outside Midgar, I just move the event in Forgotten Capital to start AVALANCHE Fall Arc with the loss of a comrade. We're gonna see her briefly in parallel of Part 1 starting with Aerith being alone then moves to Cloud and co. in Bone village (they can expand this location a bit), then Cloud finally meets her in parallel with her selling flowers in Sector 8 when his vision of Sephiroth comes... but this is not a vision anymore. Icicle Area would likely be expanded with BC and CC reference. And Part 3 sounds good to end it after public execution in Junon then seeing a glimpse of the world's reaction as the meteor is summoned. If Part 1 ends with the party decide to find Sephiroth, Part 2 ends with them decides to find Aerith, Part 3 then ends with them decides to find Cloud. That's how I see it's divided.

 

[Kain424]

There is simply a lot we don't know. I keep bouncing back to that point, I know, but it's the truth.

Even if we assume the base story remains the same, we have already witnessed the change to the handling of Sephiroth's presence in the game. And they did that, to paraphrase, "because everyone knows about Sephiroth and expects to see him." Well, that calls into question how they will handle other so-called twists. It's entirely possible Zack won't be played as a mystery, but instead simply shown outright.

They could even use all of this speculation and turn it on its head. Open the game in Nibelheim, with the player controlling Zack. Cloud as a side character. Or even have us play as Cloud, with an out and out actual Zack there to bounce off of. I sort of hope they don't do that, because I would like at least a little of the classic game's mystery to remain. But they could absolutely do it.

There is no telling at this moment. A surprising amount of the speculation on how the game is split depends upon the story structure of the original game. But we've seen extra boss fights, early revelations, some form of Compilation continuity, additional levels, plot themes, expanded characters, new characters, and so on. The next few chapters, however many they may be and whatever form they take, is a wild mystery. And I hope to see crazier guesses as to what they may contain than what i have seen so far.

 

[LNK]

It's not about Aerith knows she's gonna die, but us, the players. The new fans who really have no idea about her death (assuming they really avoid spoiler) are the few ones in number. Kitase even wants new fans who finish Remake Part 1 then play OG and Aerith's death is too iconic. So, the majority (new and old) is given the narrative that they know she'd die but there's a chance to save her with Arbiters of Fate meta and Zack's victory mystery. Even if you still expect her to die, a cliffhanger in Gongaga (that she left the party after the big event in Temple of Ancient as climax/final boss battle) would make you ask if she really would die, leave it in the unknown future again. Barret and Tifa's conversation as they walk out of Gongaga Inn is parallel with Part 1 ending.

Assuming it'd be 75% the same at least and people expect the part covering the rest of disc 1 OG outside Midgar, I just move the event in Forgotten Capital to start AVALANCHE Fall Arc with the loss of a comrade. We're gonna see her briefly in parallel of Part 1 starting with Aerith being alone then moves to Cloud and co. in Bone village (they can expand this location a bit), then Cloud finally meets her in parallel with her selling flowers in Sector 8 when his vision of Sephiroth comes... but this is not a vision anymore. Icicle Area would likely be expanded with BC and CC reference. And Part 3 sounds good to end it after public execution in Junon then seeing a glimpse of the world's reaction as the meteor is summoned. If Part 1 ends with the party decide to find Sephiroth, Part 2 ends with them decides to find Aerith, Part 3 then ends with them decides to find Cloud. That's how I see it's divided.

If the remake goes by what the OG did, then yes, we know Aerith is going to die. What I mean is, I don't think any character in game, knows she's gonna die. Not even her. Nothing that happened, has proven otherwise.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

If the remake goes by what the OG did, then yes, we know Aerith is going to die. What I mean is, I don't think any character in game, knows she's gonna die. Not even her. Nothing that happened, has proven otherwise.

C'mon her resolution scene clearly indicates she knows she is gonna die

 

[Ite]

C'mon her resolution scene clearly indicates she knows she is gonna die

I also got that sense. But be fair. Everything is deliberately vague and overly symbolic, and I don’t think the writers have decided one way or another.

I wasnt concerned about 7R being episodic when I thought they were doing a Remake, because I didn’t think it was going to become their usual brand of blind stumbling through episodic this’n’that. I thought they were just going to do a Remake, but release it in parts. That’s obviously not happening.

So we’re stuck here. They simply don’t care to look at where they’re going next when they make each entry in a given series. Just look at how wildly different each entry in the XIII trilogy is, how unbelievably incoherent it is as a “trilogy,” how it lacks all forethought or structure. FF7R is going to be the same thing. I’m not holding my breath for the stuff we saw in 7R to be foreshadowing, because the writers aren’t interested in that kind of stuff.

My preference for long-form storytelling is one of two things: plan it out in advance and tweak it as necessary (like Babylon 5) or improvise episode-to-episode but pay extremely close attention to your characters and plots so that twists seem inevitable in hindsight (Battlestar Galactica). I’ve never seen Square-Enix give a single shit about either of these storytelling methods.

 

[Eerie]

I highly disagree, they have commented on Aerith's praying pose specifically during her resolution, they have fought between themselves because of what she says - in the end, Nojima won. They absolutely know what they're doing with the foreshadowing, and they're following the script. People focus on the ending, but really the ending if you look at it really leaves you at the end of the Midgar portion of the OG. They're pulling strings and illusions, but the storytelling is for now exactly where it should be.

 

[Ite]

*shrug* Time will tell.

 

[Kain424]

They're pulling strings and illusions, but the storytelling is for now exactly where it should be.

This is the frustrating thing about it. There is a lot of stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb. And yet... they are more or less exactly where they would be if the games were following the original plot. And I have to say, this whole thing... however messy, feels intentional. And look, they've got us gabbing about it in a way we wouldn't have if it were a straight up and down Remake.

 

[Ite]

This is the frustrating thing about it. There is a lot of stuff that sticks out like a sore thumb. And yet... they are more or less exactly where they would be if the games were following the original plot. And I have to say, this whole thing... however messy, feels intentional. And look, they've got us gabbing about it in a way we wouldn't have if it were a straight up and down Remake.

But... is all press good press? And... is that what producers should be prioritizing?

 

[Kain424]

But... is all press good press? And... is that what producers should be prioritizing?

Well, my personal judgment is that it's bad. Some time ago... maybe even ten years ago, I would have been impressed and amused by this sort of thing. But in my old age, I just want some form of stability. I want updates and I want reassurances. I have positive impressions now, based on the first part. But the radio silence does little more than irk me at this point in my life.

So, no. The producers should be prioritizing level design and positive engagement. And I have a hard time with this sort of thing.

 

[Eerie]

I mean, this is exactly what they wanted. They wanted fans to have something to talk about, to theorise about. Look at people, elaborating theories, posting on twitch, YT, reddit, their theories, informing themselves, playing the OG and other games - the devs have won. They have made the first part of Remake super interesting because no one can truly answer as to what's coming. Old fans are lost. New fans are lost. And a lot of people, really a loooooooot of people, absolutely love this, old fans and new fans alike. Yes, they don't understand the ending, but they do love this feelings of being in a lively fandom.

If the devs had made Remake just a pretty version of the OG, would it be as interesting? I don't think so. I think people absolutely love to theorise - look at A Song of Ice and Fire, hell even Harry Potter back in the days, look at various series such as Lost, X-Files, etc. Why is/was the fandom alive? Because people love(d) to confront ideas, see if they could find something that made sense out of it and if they were right. If it was just a retell, it would be boring, we would know everything. But it's more than a retell.

However, Kitase has already stated that the OG plot would remain - the backbone of it will be there. To me, what it looks like is:

- retelling of the OG while encompassing the whole Compilation so that everything fits neatly

- expand on ideas they could not expand on in the OG

- expand on characters and background (I'd appreciate that the characters' stories remain impactful during the whole journey... a lot seem a bit lost in the overall plot aside from Cloud, Aerith and Tifa)

- expand on zones, quests

- possibly put a final nail on Sephiroth

So will there be a lot of differences with the OG? Well, yes. Because they expand on things, because the first game was already different from the OG, I think that the next games are going to be different, and at the same time, the backbone of the OG will still be here. That's my take on seemingly contradictory statements from the devs, yet I don't think that both can't be right at the same time. Look at Remake, and think about what Nojima stated - that it was going to be different because of the game's realism. They are going to fill in the wholes our own vivid imagination filled, back then. Even the interactions are somehow different. Anyway it's getting late and I'm rambling already, sorry. But you get the idea.

 

[ForceStealer]

the devs have won.

The battle, but will they win the war?
Invoking Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, and Lost darkly demonstrate the issue with the approach

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The problem is... I feel like I can't trust anything the devs say. It feels like the devs are snickering behind their hands watching the fandom fall over itself. There's too much self-contradiction and it's very obvious they are being coy with their words so that the letter of what they are saying is true while the spirit of how the fandom took their words is false. It very much feels like the devs are yanking the fandom's chain and know they can get away with it because of what franchise this is.

At this point... I really could care less about what the game actually does. The story thinks it's cleverer than it is and is all but stroking it's own ego and I hate most stories that give me that impression. There is no way for FFVII Reamke to fail and everyone knows it. I just wish the devs wouldn't think trying to shock an audience in the short-term is a god thing to do with an IP that is too successful to fail financially.

The only reason I really stick around in FFVIIR is for the community. Because as sick as it makes me think the devs are (and myself to be honest)... watching the community freak out about every little thing in the Remake is some of the best entertainment I've seen in years. Forget the game; it's the audience that is worth watching... and everything the devs are doing makes me think it's not the story they are thinking about, but the audience reaction to said story.

However, caring about the audience reaction to a story over the story itself has rarely made for a well-remembered story (or worse, people remember the story for all the wrong reasons). And I'd hate for the Remake to be remembered for being that kind of story.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The battle, but will they win the war?
Invoking Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, and Lost darkly demonstrate the issue with the approach

Two of those three actually did end successfully, with one only self-immolating after the fact because the author decided to just dig into being a bi-... I mean... Well, let's just say she got into a TERF war with her fanbase, I guess.

I don't think that's anything nearly applicable here.

Worst case comparison to this would be Kingdom Hearts which even then, is certainly nowhere close to any of those three examples. Furthermore, how would that even work here? Until FFVII Remake Part 2 gets released onto something like the 3DS, a resurrected retro PSP, a browser game, a mobile gacha game, waits 5 years with nothing, and then gives us a final entry that just suddenly guts itself in content, I can't see it coming close to that level of un-stuck landing either.

And every author, especially in a serialized work, spends some effort yanking the chain of their audience. They intentionally pull on the chains of interest their fiction wraps around their audience so that they may pull their reader/player/etc to the next part of the story. The next piece of the puzzle. This isn't new or somehow deceptive. Especially in multi-adaptive games. They're an affair of engagement and play. Not just consumption. Given this was the genre, we knew this would happen. I suppose we didn't know how vast and open the potential narrative landscape would be, but it is perfectly normal for the developers to play this series with the cards tightly to their chest. That's what any author with secrets will do. We're not meant to know until the story unfolds. The anxiety, wonder, and mystery is simply part of the package. Assuaging everyone's concerns while simultaneously taking risks in storytelling cannot be done simultaneously.

I mean if you think this is bad, imagine those poor SOBs following George R. R. Martin for all these years.

 

[LNK]

C'mon her resolution scene clearly indicates she knows she is gonna die

From your perspective, you think she knows. The game doesn't show that, just yet though.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think it might be a bit presumptuous to assume the devs chose this direction purely for shock value. The crew behind this clearly care about this story from both OG devs to OG fans who are also devs on FF7R, and the reception to the game was mostly positive so they’ve at least done something right for somebody. I guess everybody wants to be that somebody but not everybody will, and unfortunately that will end up disappointing some. Some fans will say “but what about those of us who just wanted the original story with new graphics?” and I’m at a point where I just say “I want world peace and a million dollars but we can’t always have what we want, can’t we?” I’m not pointing fingers either, I just think the general sentiment that you have to give the fans exactly what they want at all times isn’t exactly a fulfilling thing to be bound to as a creator especially when not every fan wants the same thing, and I think we’d be having a different conversation altogether if the sales weren’t so good for this game.

Of course, I don’t want to dismiss people who have different opinions than me so I never make a big deal about these things. If anything, I wish everybody felt how I felt about FF7R. As a new fan, I loved it and every day since it came out, I’ve just been thinking about what’s to come. Whatever the devs were going for, it certainly worked for me and it worked for many others. Could that change in the future? Of course! But either way, I’m hardly in a position to come to conclusions about the intentions of the creators so I just take it for what it is.

Kinda reminds me of the polarizing reception to TLOU2, although the discourse around FF7R seems pretty tame by comparison. The first TLOU is one of my favorite games of all time but I just...didn’t have the energy or desire to hate TLOU2 no matter how many angry gamer clickbait videos from armchair industry insiders kept filling up my YouTube recommendations. I didn’t love it, but I didn’t hate it. Far from it. Actually, I was fine without a sequel the same way some FF7 fans were fine without a remake.

Maybe the me of 5+ years ago would’ve been a bit more irritated with FF7R if I grew up with the OG. But I didn’t grow up with it, I played the OG six months ago and it quickly become my favorite game I ever played in my life. I don’t think there’s anything FF7R could’ve done to ruin my love of the OG and if anything it made me love the OG more, but I guess both games entered my life at just the perfect time. I do hope in the future FF7R somehow wins over those of you who were dissatisfied with this game, unfortunately it’s just inevitable that everybody can’t get everything they want.

 

[ultima786]

Good takes. I think Many, many more people would have liked the ending if the characters acted more confused. They at some point were like “OK! Let’s beat the Whispers!” But we viewers were still reeling, and confused. What did they know that we didn’t? The devs didn’t do a great job with this.

For some of the more lame sidequests, I appreciated them more when Cloud acknowledged that they were lame.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

One of the big things I don't see getting discussed is that the... "release frequency" of serial media pays a big part in how much info people expect to get from creators outside of the media in question getting released. As well as how it plays a part in how much of the story has to be "tied up" at the end of a media release.

And... the Remake... the Remake has a very low "release frequency" of years without a major content/story update. Which means the people playing it are going to expect a lot of info from the devs about when the next part is going to come out. In part because we don't know what the "release frequency" is actually going to be. Will it be two years? Three years? We know it can't be one year. But expecting info from the devs can be problematic if the devs are describing something different than what they are actually making...

To go with that, having a low "release frequency" also means the story chunks of a work kind of need to feel "tied up" in a way. Ending on cliff-hangers in a serial media with a high "release frequency" (weekly, monthly) fells okay, as people aren't going to wait too long in a state of tension to find out what happens next. Leaving too much unsettled for so long doesn't feel great. That isn't to say things can't be tied up, just that... there has to be some kind of resolution to the "main story arc" of an individual piece of serial media when the "release frequency" is so low. And nothing in the Remake feels remotely settled at all. The ending is one long string of "unresolved" issues. It's not a completed narrative arc with some unresolved cliffhangers we still know need to be answered... it's an incomplete narrative arc...

Anyway, point being... not resolving something in a story I know will be continuing in a week, or a month, or even three months is one thing. The audience isn't going to need to wait long to see something happen. Leaving so many things unresolved in a story that won't be continuing for literal years... that's a bit different.