How aware was Lucrecia?

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

We all know that Lucrecia appears eleventy bajillion times in Vincent's story. Some of these are simply flashbacks, some are hallucinations, some are dreams, one is a recording, and then there's the one "true" appearance she makes in the last scene when Vincent talks to her and she sheds a tear. This is the only time we see the "real," physical Lucrecia in the present time, the Lucrecia that is actually "her."

Or is it?

I've attempted to classify and discuss each of her appearances in the game for the fansite I'm making, and I have found myself perplexed by the three "dream" appearances she makes in the game (with Vincent sitting in her cave talking to her, and her trying to say things to him). While I was fully prepared to explain that these are simply dreams and not the "real" Lucrecia, something bothered me.

The the first two dreams, the things that Lucrecia says to Vincent are easily things that his own subconscious could have invented for her to say— "I'm so sorry" (since she said this tearfully when she ran away from him, a very important memory to him), and "Awake," (either a reference to the fact that he is unconscious when he dreams this one, to be taken literally, or could be his own subconscious trying to rouse Chaos or something else more psychological within him that needs waking).

But in the third dream, she speaks of having found the protomateria and that she gave it to him, and possibly hints at this being the key that he needs. "I...found it... I gave...you," is what she says.

Lucrecia knows that. Vincent does not. Would he have had any way of knowing this important information and simply forgot it? Would his mind have been able to invent and attribute this dialogue to Lucrecia? He would need to—somewhere deep within his subconscious—know about the protomateria's existence, know that Lucrecia found it, know that Lucrecia gave it to him (and therefore probably know that Lucrecia gave him Chaos), and most importantly he would need to know that it's significant and that he needs to remember it right now.

So here are the implications I can see:

If it's just a dream, that means Vincent knew these things all along. It means that while in the lab, he was aware, on some very deeply burried level, of his surroundings and what was happening to him. The brief flashback of Lucrecia peering into the regen tube at him would seem to support this. It means that he was not "dead," as a corpse could not be aware at all. It also means most of the reiterations of "I'm so sorry" didn't actually come from Lucrecia, but from Vincent's memory/mental image of Lucrecia.

If it was not just a dream and Lucrecia was somehow communicating with him, it means that Lucrecia somehow has the ability to do so. It means that the "I'm so sorry" broken record actually did come from her, and that she was in contact with Vincent during the game and really knew as well as we did what Vincent was going through, which would make her tear at the end make more sense. It means that Vincent's mind did not necessarily retain memories of his experiences in the lab somehow, and that he was truly ignorant of what the protomateria was, that Lucrecia gave it to him, and that it was the key to stopping Chaos (and that Lucrecia knew it).


Personally, I think the first scenario is still the more likely one, but it calls other elements of the game into question. Discuss.

Also, if Vincent knew about the protomateria all along, was he a douche for not remembering sooner? Also discuss.

Oh, and dream #1 is in the game intro (3:00-3:45). Dream #2 is in Chapter 3 after he fights Rosso, transforms into Chaos, and passes out (and Shalua brings him back to WRO HQ). Dream #3 is in Chapter 5, after Rosso pwns his ass in ShinRa Manor and Yuffie saves him.

 

[ForceStealer]

To be honest, I kinda assumed she was just communicating with him the same way Aeris was with Cloud - except it was easier in that Lucrecia isn't talking from beyond the grave.

You raise an interesting point about him dreaming it, seeing her (literally) in Shelke at the end...But what about in FF7? She clearly talks to them then, doesn't she? Even Cloud hears her.
I'm not sure about her picking up telepathic powers, but when he's actually in the cave, she could just be talking and he's imagining her moving around.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

FF7 is a little odd because I think they retconned the existence of the crystal. She obviously wasn't in a crystal then. In fact, she spoke clearly, and moved around, lifted/lowered her head, stood, knelt, put her arms out, hugged herself, etc. And yeah, Cloud starts to answer her question and Vincent stops him.

But then in the interview we have this:

The crystal object that Lucrecia has been sleeping throughout DC, is it possible that she could be alive?

Chiba: She is still alive. In FF7, she became an entity that possesses a body that won’t die [perish] “that easily,” so she was always inside the crystal. However, it is not to say that it is entirely impossible for her to come out of the crystal, as Lucrecia was just in a state of sealing herself inside. Furthermore, that crystal is a product of Lucrecia herself. However, those who have seen the ending will understand that words can be [properly] communicated to her.

Kitase: Though it is not certain whether or not it [Lucrecia’s feelings/words] can be transcended to Vincent, he constantly visits her place and talks to her. In DC, Lucrecia’s feelings can be passed through [understood] by Shelke [with SND], but the last tear that we see Lucrecia shedding is implying the undermined uncertainty, “Did it really get through?”

There's always been the question of "If Lucrecia's been in that cave since the Jenova Project then how did she hear the rumor that Sephiroth had died?" Who did she hear it from? Did she ever make trips outside of the cave? Did someone find her there?

Did she eat? Sleep? Bathe? Etc.

But now it seems like they're saying she was just in the crystal the whole time, unless that's been translated incorrectly. I guess we'll find out if they do remake it. I question even more how they'll reconcile her having heard the rumor if they do that, since it's what her entire conversation with Vincent was based upon.


I did assume when I first played the game that it was actually Lucrecia communicating with Vincent, but it doesn't really make sense that she would be able to. Aeris was a spirit and a Cetra. I haven't seen ACC yet so I don't know how Zack accomplished it.

Maybe it's closer to the dream Cloud has of Aeris in the Sleeping Forest before she gets herself killed. Was that Aeris communicating with Cloud or was it Cloud's subconscious sensing that Aeris was in danger and trying to alert his conscious to it by envisioning her and assigning the dialogue to his mental image of her? But again, Aeris was a Cetra, so if it was Aeris actually speaking to Cloud then that could be explained easily by that fact (and raises fewer questions than Cloud just knowing where she's going without being told).

The only thing special about Lucrecia is that she's got a sizeable dose of Jenova cells and that she's been encased in materia for we-don't-know-how-long. Would either of these attributes have enabled her to speak to an unconscious Vincent in Kalm/Edge/Nibelheim while she's somewhere else in the world? Do we have any reason to believe they would?


Incidentally, Kitase's response to that question seems to expect this confusion on our parts, and indicate that it was intentional. ("it is not certain whether or not Lucrecia’s feelings/words can be transcended to Vincent")

 

[ForceStealer]

Aeris was a spirit and a Cetra. I haven't seen ACC yet so I don't know how Zack accomplished it.

I think that is usually explained by 'Aeris made that happen', that she's either been holding Zack's consciousness together or just reconstituted it for Cloud's sake there - but that's a different discussion.

I guess the conclusion I would have to draw is that Vincent's dreaming it when he's not in the cave, but she is actually talking when he's there...? Although DoC's opening makes it sound like she's really hard to understand when talking through the crystal.

But all that final exposition, when Vincent gets the Protomateria back, as you said, he's dead in most of those flashbacks...so how could have known? When you see from his view inside the cylinder, that could be after she revived him with Chaos, or even the protomateria...hard to say.

 

[Strangelove]

Maybe 'always' isn't the best word in this case, 'for a long time' might be better. In FFVII she ended up with a body that won't die, and since then she's been in that crystal.

The Ultimania Omega says that Lucrecia started living in the cave while receiving support and aid from Hojo, who could have told her what had happened to Sephiroth.

 

[ForceStealer]

...really? That sounds awfully...human...of Hojo.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Maybe 'always' isn't the best word in this case, 'for a long time' might be better. In FFVII she ended up with a body that won't die, and since then she's been in that crystal.

Well I didn't take "always" to mean "since she was born," but "since she fled Nibelheim." "For a long time" could simply mean "since she reunited with Vincent in FF7" since 3 years could be seen as a long time to be in a crystal.

The Ultimania Omega says that Lucrecia started living in the cave while receiving support and aid from Hojo, who could have told her what had happened to Sephiroth.

...Alimony? lawl.

Why the hell hasn't that been translated? And Ryu Kaze's UO summary/FAQ never hinted anything about it. Could you provide a translation of that whole article? And maybe even a scan? That's pretty damn important to a lot of things if she's been in contact with Hojo.

 

[Strangelove]

Well I didn't take "always" to mean "since she was born," but "since she fled Nibelheim." "For a long time" could simply mean "since reunited with Vincent in FF7" since 3 years could be seen as a long time to be in a crystal.

Well, I assumed 'always' would just be post-birth. But it mentions the time of FFVII, so I think 'since the scene in FFVII' is a likely one.

...Alimony? lawl.

Why the hell hasn't that been translated? And Ryu Kaze's UO summary/FAQ never hinted anything about it. Could you provide a translation of that whole article? And maybe even a scan? That's pretty damn important to a lot of things if she's been in contact with Hojo.

I always thought Vincent's notes on his timeline were interesting, but I'm lazy and never got around to finishing them.

Until today I thought I had already done this, but I couldn't find the file so I just did from scratch. This was just one run through, so tell me if anything doesn't make sense/sounds weird:

Spoiler

*1
The Jenova Project team consisted of 3 members: the chief Prof. Gast, his assistant Hojo, and Lucrecia. Vincent, who was accompanying them on a mission, fell in love with Lucrecia, and proposes to her. However, she turned his offer down, and chose to be with Hojo. After seeing Hojo suffering from an inferiority complex toward Gast, she felt a maternal love for him and wanted to protect him.

*2
Several years after giving birth to Sephiroth, abnormalities gradually begin to appear in Lucrecia's body, and her external appearance becomes hideously altered. In despair at having changed into a form she no longer wished people to see, Lucrecia disappears. It was Hojo's reckless experiments that made her so unhappy... Enraged, Vincent turns on Hojo, but is instead shot by him, and while he is unconscious he falls pray to Hojo's "scientific curiosity."

*4
While receiving backing from Hojo, Lucrecia lived in secret in the cave by the waterfall. When she asked him about her son Sephiroth, Vincent lies to her and tells her that Sephiroth is dead. It is a kind lie, told become he knows that the truth-- that because of Sepiroth the planet is facing destruction, and that he is trying to defeat Sephiroth now to save the planet-- would only cause Lucrecia pain.

*5
If he is in the party during the conversation with Hojo, Vincent will show angry as he speaks. Even though Sephiroth being Hojo and Lucrecia's son was unknown to Cloud and the others, Vincent was already aware of this. He was possibly expecting Hojo to act like a father. Perhaps this is why he couldn't stand Hojo calling his wife "the woman who bore my child" and treating his son like "the results of my experiment."

(They always call the cave Lucrecia is in a 'small shrine' in Japanese. Also, the missing note is just about the timing of Vincent and Yuffie joining you.)

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler

and her external appearance becomes hideously altered.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Whoa..where did this info come from? What part of the Ultimania Omega?

...And what part of Lucrecia has been hideously altered? She looks hot to me.

Btw, you *still* need to finish the rest of those Early Material Files hito!!!

 

[Strangelove]

That and the disappearance seems to have been retconned by DC. In DC she's still around when Vincent is shot (unless she was coming back to visit for some reason), and doesn't look different at all, let alone ugly.

Whoa..where did this info come from? What part of the Ultimania Omega?

Bitch, lrn2reading.

I always thought Vincent's notes on his timeline were interesting

...And what part of Lucrecia has been hideously altered? She looks hot to me.

The bits you don't see.

Demon vajayjay like that movie

Btw, you *still* need to finish the rest of those Early Material Files hito!!!

...

Sorry, I forgot

 

[Makoeyes987]

I didn't know Vicent even had a timeline in the UO. Shows what I know.

And now I imagine Lucrecia with an eye on her boob, and tentacles near her crotch now, but seemingly looking sexy and beautiful

And I figured you did. That hurts T_T

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Several years after giving birth to Sephiroth, abnormalities gradually begin to appear in Lucrecia's body, and her external appearance becomes hideously altered. In despair at having changed into a form she no longer wished people to see, Lucrecia disappears. It was Hojo's reckless experiments that made her so unhappy... Enraged, Vincent turns on Hojo, but is instead shot by him, and while he is unconscious he falls pray to Hojo's "scientific curiosity."

Whoa, what? That was "several years" after Sephiroth's birth? Where was Sephiroth? Midgar? Did Midgar exist yet? How did he know Hojo as a child if Hojo was in Nibelheim then? Was Hojo traveling back and forth? Why would they still have been in Nibelheim if Sephiroth was elsewhere? And how did "several years" pass without Lucrecia ever managing to see Sephiroth?

Not to mention the bit about hideous abnormalities and Lucrecia going into seclusion before Vincent was shot but coming back to work on his body? This doesn't seem to jive with continuity at all. The only thing it might remotely explain is the discrepancy between Sephiroth's age and how long Vincent spent sleeping, which is debatable anyway depending on how old Sephiroth is even supposed to be. Is this like the early materials— stuff that was changed later? Or is it the final "canon" version of his timeline?

 

[Max Payne]

However, she turned his offer down, and chose to be with Hojo. After seeing Hojo suffering from an inferiority complex toward Gast, she felt a maternal love for him and wanted to protect him.

LOLWHAT

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Yeah and I think that's most evident when she shouts at him to stay out of her lab and he tells her to shut up and he won't take orders from her, or maybe when she's shaking the hell out of him demanding to see her son.

 

[Strangelove]

Is this like the early materials— stuff that was changed later? Or is it the final "canon" version of his timeline?

This isn't early material. They are the supplementary notes for his timeline of the final game.

But the Ultimania Omega came out in 2005, and not all the details still fit with the later Compilation titles. (For example, Aerith's timeline notes mention her meeting Zack while selling flowers, which in CC she didn't do until after she met Zack.)

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

So how are we supposed to reconcile this stuff? D:

 

[Max Payne]

What is with all this maternal love shit :/

 

[Makoeyes987]

What's to reconcile?

 

[Gale]

Final Fantasy VII: Mommy Issues

That new info really throws a wrench into what I figured was the timeframe for Vincent's transformation. I figured it occurred while Lucrecia was still pregnant.

 

[Strangelove]

So how are we supposed to reconcile this stuff? D:

It helps if you start drinking

I think you can just ignore the bit about the physical changes (making her look different) and her disappearing (at least at that time) now. She still changes but it doesn't deform her, and she disappears after the whole Vincent/Chaos thing.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

What's to reconcile?

How about the glaring inconsistencies? Maybe start here:

Where was Sephiroth [for "several years"]? [In] Midgar? Did Midgar exist yet? How did he know Hojo as a child if Hojo was in Nibelheim then? Was Hojo traveling back and forth? Why would they still have been in Nibelheim if Sephiroth was elsewhere? And how did "several years" pass without Lucrecia ever managing to see Sephiroth?

Not to mention the bit about hideous abnormalities and Lucrecia going into seclusion before Vincent was shot but coming back to work on his body? This doesn't seem to jive with continuity at all.

Her supposedly disappearing before Vincent was shot but clearly being around Nibelheim clutching her stomach and staying to work on him and keeping a lab there that she calls "hers" might be the most pressing of matters. Next we can move on to these supposed "hideous abnormalities" and the giant lapse of time.

What about her trusting Hojo enough to let him know where she was hiding and have him provide her with "support" after she demonstrates a clear dislike and distrust of him between Vincent's murder and her flight?

It helps if you start drinking

I'm inclined to believe that. =|

I think you can just ignore the bit about the physical changes (making her look different) and her disappearing (at least at that time) now. She still changes but it doesn't deform her, and she disappears after the whole Vincent/Chaos thing.

Perhaps, but that reeks a little too strongly of what I just posted in the other thread regarding "FF7 Delusionals."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh, I wasn't paying attention to that. I guess they just retconned that for Dirge of Cerberus

 

[Max Payne]

Or they can't keep track of all their details anymore

 

[ForceStealer]

They just shouldn't write any more of this stuff until they know they're done with the Compilation, dammit.