How cohesive will (or won't) the remake be with the Compilation? [Discussion split from interview thread]

[Unit-01]

Edit- Because I seem to be the first post in this split now, I'll explain.

Nomura recently had an interview and said the Remake isn't currently cohesive with the compilation. More information can be found in the actual article here.
Link: http://kh13.com/news/tetsuya-nomura-interviewed-by-final-fantasy-dream-at-magic-2017



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Two videos by Dean Weiss and Final Fantasy Union that I found pretty informative.

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As said by both parties and something I think everyone here should agree with. We just need to wait until either a new trailer(unlikely) or when we actually get the game in our hands to really understand what this means for the story.

I find it a bit bizarre Square and Nomura are going the Evangelion Rebuild route as it seems and just making the Remake it's own separate thing. (If this turns out to be the case)


And I need to hand it off to MR.ITE himself, and say yup... If this is the case Genesis is not going to be the the Nibelheim flashback, and even if this isn't the case your point still stands.

 

[ForceStealer]

I still maintain if they totally adhered to the Compilation Genesis wouldn't be at Nibelheim.

 

[Pixel]

Nomura could be just like "fuck you tabata, I'm undoing everything you did with the compilation. So BC and parts of CC get retconned

 

[ForceStealer]

He'd theoretically have to convince Nojima of that, though. (For CC, anyway)

 

[Unit-01]

I still maintain if they totally adhered to the Compilation Genesis wouldn't be at Nibelheim.

Thus is the reason why I said even if the above isn't the case....

Also, if they did "totally adhere to the Compilation" as you put it, then they would have to add Genesis... or it wouldn't "totally adhere to the Compilation".

 

[ForceStealer]

Nah, I still maintain that the intention of where they put Genesis was to be where Cloud wouldn't have known, and as such wouldn't have appeared in his telling of events. This may have been sloppily accomplished, but it seems clear to me that that was Nojima's intent.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Given both Cloud and Tifa's point of view, they hardly know Genesis, and given how they're so focused on both Sephiroth and the current situation, Genesis was easily forgotten from their memories, especially when they don't even think about facing Genesis clones when they already have other things to worry about.

Genesis was to Zack as Sephiroth was to Cloud; The main causes of the pain and hurt the two spikes had to go through.

Try imagining yourselves in their perspectives similiar to reality. Like us, they're human and they forget things like we do. Given choice and simple logic, especially in Square's part, memories are important too.

 

[Ite]

Yes, yes to everything. *rolls around in a blanket*

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Even if Cloud did know of him being in there, though, it wasn't immediately relevant to the story Cloud was telling in Kalm, and so there's little reason for it to be odd that he not mention it.

In Crisis Core Genesis is the catalyst for Sephiroth researching the Jenova project and subsequently going batshit. Seems pretty relevant to me.

I think it's completely implausible that characters would just 'forget' about Genesis being in Nibelheim, because of their focus being elsewhere or some crap, or because he's not 'relevant'.

Also, comparing the way Nibelheim is represented in both the OG and CC is kind of pointless at this stage. Using Cloud's version of the events in the OG can't plausibly be used (IMO) to justify Genesis not being mentioned. They're two different games made very far apart from each other.

Now, if Square wants to retcon Genesis out of the story completely, so be it. I won't be happy with that change in the story again, but it's better than insulting my intelligence by having characters conveniently 'forget' that he was there because their focus lie elsewhere, or not 'thinking' that Genesis was relevant to the story at hand.

There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's get the fuck out.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Even if Cloud did know of him being in there, though, it wasn't immediately relevant to the story Cloud was telling in Kalm, and so there's little reason for it to be odd that he not mention it.

In Crisis Core Genesis is the catalyst for Sephiroth researching the Jenova project and subsequently going batshit. Seems pretty relevant to me.

That's looking it from an outside omniscient perspective, not a "Sephiroth is the one Cloud hates -- oh, and he's back" perspective.

Besides, at this point, Cloud doesn't know all the stuff that went on with Seph's origin anyway. Maybe he would be able to make enough sense of what Genesis was prattling on about to tie it to Sephiroth's fall, but Zack was much closer to the situation, and he seemingly still didn't put it all together.

 

[ForceStealer]

Exactly.

Even if Cloud did remember that part of the story that Zack told him, would any of that have even made sense to him? Did he know anything about degregation or apples? Enough about Cloud's actual memories were already confusing him, much less trying to make sense of this whole other plotline.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Wholeheartedly agreed with Force here. Genesis' presence was designed specifically to not interrupt how Cloud viewed the events in FFVII and relayed them to AVALANCHE & Co.

IF it gets included in any form in the Remake, it'll likely be done as something after Cloud gets his head screwed on straight, and then has the option to go back to the Shinra Mansion for the Zack flashback, and gets small little details to follow a side quest that leads you to the ruins of Banora to unlock a post-game EX dungeon with Genesis in an Omega-wrecked Midgar post DoC timeline or something since (as FFXV has shown) there are ways of jumping a game forward in time to play specific events after the main game is completed. (Thus giving a perfect venue for AC & DoC-based costumes to make an appearance).


tl;dr — Genesis doesn't need to be included, and even if they choose to include him, it can still be in a highly auxiliary capacity of digging out additional details in a sidequest like the Zack flashback originally was.





X

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I agree, I don't really want Genesis in the remake in any capacity, but not mentioning him at all... I just don't agree with it.

I just... blegh. This is so frustrating when I sit and think about it. I hate having so many versions of the same event, it messes my head up. The Remake is going to be the new canon, and is just going to add more fuel to the fire between fans who are going to believe whatever version what they want to believe, regardless if it's deemed non-canon or what's set down by Square.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from, or am I just talking out of my ass at this point? Like I don't like Genesis, but I'm not crazy about removing him from the narrative either because his presence in it has been solidified for ten years. I'm so used to him being a part of this story now that erasing his presence because Square made a mistake by collaborating with a J-Pop star... blegh. I'll shut up now.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Nah, I totally get where you're coming from. It's one of those things where the concept and the execution didn't totally land in a way that a lot of people like and it's largely a tangential project (literally) to the main story that feels out of place if it's included at all prominently, but also feels like a significant omission at this point if it's just cut out entirely.

FWIW, I obviously have a stronger attachment to Genesis' bit of the story than many folks, given the speculative bit that I wrote about the clues left by CC & DoC ages back, but I do think that there's really solid stuff there for side mission-type content that can expand the world a bit without falling into the pit of over-emphasis on something that can feel like it pulls away from the main story.





X

 

[Unit-01]

IF it gets included in any form in the Remake, it'll likely be done as something after Cloud gets his head screwed on straight, and then has the option to go back to the Shinra Mansion for the Zack flashback, and gets small little details to follow a side quest that leads you to the ruins of Banora to unlock a post-game EX dungeon with Genesis in an Omega-wrecked Midgar post DoC timeline or something since (as FFXV has shown) there are ways of jumping a game forward in time to play specific events after the main game is completed. (Thus giving a perfect venue for AC & DoC-based costumes to make an appearance).


tl;dr — Genesis doesn't need to be included, and even if they choose to include him, it can still be in a highly auxiliary capacity of digging out additional details in a sidequest like the Zack flashback originally was.

X

I can agree with this. Also I can jump it back to what my post was really about regarding the entire compilation. Not just specifically Genesis as many of you like to make it be.
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But simply, if the whole idea of the Remake being a separate continuity than the original game and compilation then they are going to be changing a lot within the Remake without effect to the Compilation to make the story of the Remake more coherent.

Like in this sense as the Remake being a separate continuity. is why I'll go ahead and say "Yes, Genesis has no reason to be in the flashback." As the writers will retcon his appearance there in Cloud's retelling. Much like the way everyone here says was intended, being Genesis in a sense that Cloud didn't know he was present therefor impacting the way Cloud retells the events. If this separate continuity idea is to be believed, then yes the writers will show us what was intended.

This situation is much like the difference between the Evangelion Rebuild movies vs the TV show. (Except for half of the story being completely different of course).

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However if this isn't the case my argument still stands because what was intended for that scene is much different than what was executed for the scene. Yes the execution to have Genesis there is a way Cloud would be unaware was sloppy done. So much so that it doesn't make sense for Cloud not to have remembered Genesis being there.

Cloud never goes into the Mako Reactor, everything he knows about Sephiroth from that scene is given to him by Zack. (Something that Cloud retells very vividly I might add). Does everyone seem to forgot how Genesis came in, and the first thing he does is knock Zack to the floor with a fire attack? How would Cloud not remember that or the entire conversation between Sephiroth and Genesis afterwards? Not to mention Cloud knows who Genesis is from earlier in the game(Crisis Core), and ontop of that he's fighting Genesis Copies when Zack gets back outside. It doesn't make any sense for Cloud to have remembered half of those details perfectly and completely forgot anything to do with Genesis.

Also I'll say it again, the intention is different from the execution of the scene in Crisis Core.

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While typing this I was ninja'd by both X-Soldier and Lith.

@Lith - Maybe reading this shows that I have the same thoughts as you.

@Soldier - Agreed. Also to an extent what I just said, but in greater detail.

Also I share that stronger attachment to Genesis/CC for other reasons. But I think we've already talked about that whole theory and how it makes Genesis important to the mythology of the Compilation.

 

[ForceStealer]

I agree, I don't really want Genesis in the remake in any capacity, but not mentioning him at all... I just don't agree with it.

Why? If he's not relevant to the events happening, than to include him only throws off your pacing.

I just... blegh. This is so frustrating when I sit and think about it. I hate having so many versions of the same event, it messes my head up.

FF7 ITSELF gives you multiple versions of the same events.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from, or am I just talking out of my ass at this point? Like I don't like Genesis, but I'm not crazy about removing him from the narrative either because his presence in it has been solidified for ten years. I'm so used to him being a part of this story now that erasing his presence because Square made a mistake by collaborating with a J-Pop star... blegh. I'll shut up now.

I don't, personally. Will it also bother you if the Remake doesn't mention Weiss and Nero? Or Elfe? I don't think it should, because that would have no bearing on Cloud's story.

Even if Genesis really was the catalyst to Sephiroth's research, that still doesn't really matter to Cloud's story. Elfe did important things as well, but it doesn't matter for VII's story.

But simply, if the whole idea of the Remake being a separate continuity than the original game and compilation then they are going to be changing a lot within the Remake without effect to the Compilation to make the story of the Remake more coherent.

Or it will just be like every other Compilation entry.

Like in this sense as the Remake being a separate continuity. is why I'll go ahead and say "Yes, Genesis has no reason to be in the flashback." As the writers will retcon his appearance there in Cloud's retelling. Much like the way everyone here says was intended, being Genesis in a sense that Cloud didn't know he was present therefor impacting the way Cloud retells the events. If this separate continuity idea is to be believed, then yes the writers will show us what was intended.

Yeah, and that wouldn't be a retcon.

However if this isn't the case my argument still stands because what was intended for that scene is much different than what was executed for the scene. Yes the execution to have Genesis there is a way Cloud would be unaware was sloppy done. So much so that it doesn't make sense for Cloud not to have remembered Genesis being there.

Tres already addressed this better than I did. Whether Cloud remembers it doesn't really matter. That bit wouldn't have made sense to him anyway so it's not really hard to believe he wouldn't mention it. It didn't have anything to do with the story he was telling. To have him tell that whole conversation would just be lousy storytelling if you didn't have him then go and tell the entire freaking story about Genesis and Sephiroth too. Why would you do that?


If the Remake makes it very clear that it is completely tossing out the Compilation in all ways, then I will agree that things have been retconned. But if it sort of adheres the way every other Compilation title does (that is, haphazardly), but Genesis is absent, I will insist that that is NOT a retcon.

 

[Unit-01]

I don't, personally. Will it also bother you if the Remake doesn't mention Weiss and Nero? Or Elfe? I don't think it should, because that have no bearing on Cloud's story.

Also because those characters are completely unrelated to the topic we are discussing, and have never been retconed into the original game scene like Genesis was. Also they don't need to be mentioned because Weiss and Nero are under Midgar until DoC, and Elfe I'm sure is taken down by extended Turks. (I'm not all to familiar with the events in Before Crisis).

Or it will just be like every other Compilation entry.

I don't understand what you mean here. You do understand I am referring to the interview with Nomura that took place 2 days ago where he literally said the Remake may not be coherent with the Compilation right?

Yeah, and that wouldn't be a retcon.

Not in the original game no, but it is a retcon of the events in Crisis Core.

Tres already addressed this better than I did. Whether Cloud remembers it doesn't really matter. That bit wouldn't have made sense to him anyway so it's not really hard to believe he wouldn't mention it. It didn't have anything to do with the story he was telling.


If the Remake blatantly and clearly contradicts the Compilation in numerous ways, then I will agree. But if it sort of adheres the way every other Compilation title does, but Genesis is absent, I will insist that that is NOT a retcon.

So Cloud remembering the details about Genesis and leaving it out. This is the only plausible argument against it.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't, personally. Will it also bother you if the Remake doesn't mention Weiss and Nero? Or Elfe? I don't think it should, because that have no bearing on Cloud's story.

Also because those characters are completely unrelated to the topic we are discussing, and have never been retconed into the original game scene like Genesis was. Also they don't need to be mentioned because Weiss and Nero are under Midgar until DoC, and Elfe I'm sure is taken down by extended Turks. (I'm not all to familiar with the events in Before Crisis).

All right, then, are you saying if the Vincent flashbacks don't go into everything that Dirge added with Grimoire and Lucrecia and such it will be a RETCON. OR will it simply only be portraying the events important to the narrative at hand?

Or it will just be like every other Compilation entry.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Because the Compilation has already only adhered to itself when convenient. So if the Remake includes some of it but not other parts, that's pretty much par for the course.

Yeah, and that wouldn't be a retcon.

Not in the original game no, but it is a retcon of the events in Crisis Core.

No, it isn't. We are never given an omniscient perspective of that scene in FF7. Cloud tells the story in Kalm, and that's it. We don't see it again in the Lifestream cutscene because Cloud wasn't there for it. So anything Cloud didn't mention, we didn't learn.

Tres already addressed this better than I did. Whether Cloud remembers it doesn't really matter. That bit wouldn't have made sense to him anyway so it's not really hard to believe he wouldn't mention it. It didn't have anything to do with the story he was telling.


If the Remake blatantly and clearly contradicts the Compilation in numerous ways, then I will agree. But if it sort of adheres the way every other Compilation title does, but Genesis is absent, I will insist that that is NOT a retcon.

So Cloud remembering the details about Genesis and leaving it out. This is the only plausible argument against it.

Yes. And it is ENTIRELY plausible.

If you were telling people a story about something. And there's a part that may have been important to the characters at the time, but now would only confuse the issue and require you to explain a whole separate setup (especially if you don't even know that setup), might you not just skip that part?

 

[Unit-01]

All right, then, are you saying if the Vincent flashbacks don't go into everything that Dirge added with Grimoire and Lucrecia and such it will be a RETCON. OR will it simply only be portraying the events important to the narrative at hand?

There is a difference between the additional backstory given in DOC then Genesis being retconed into a original scene because of Crisis Core.

Those scenes regarding Gimoire and Lucretia are additional backstory for Vincent and don't change the backstory shown in the original.

No, it isn't. We are never given an omniscient perspective of that scene in FF7. Cloud tells the story in Kalm, and that's it. We don't see it again in the Lifestream cutscene because Cloud wasn't there for it. So anything Cloud didn't mention, we didn't learn.

So in that respect Genesis won't be in the original flashback because Cloud never bothers to explain him. Like I said, I agree with that part.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I agree, I don't really want Genesis in the remake in any capacity, but not mentioning him at all... I just don't agree with it.

Why? If he's not relevant to the events happening, than to include him only throws off your pacing.

How is he not relevant? He goaded Sephiroth into researching his origins, saying Jenova was a monster and that he was a monster too. I don't understand how that's not relevant. The Nibelheim Incident tells the downfall of the main villain that you're fighting throughout the entire game--it's kind of a big deal.

I just... blegh. This is so frustrating when I sit and think about it. I hate having so many versions of the same event, it messes my head up.

FF7 ITSELF gives you multiple versions of the same events.

I'm talking about multiple versions of the same event throughout entries in the series.

I don't, personally. Will it also bother you if the Remake doesn't mention Weiss and Nero? Or Elfe? I don't think it should, because that would have no bearing on Cloud's story.

Even if Genesis really was the catalyst to Sephiroth's research, that still doesn't really matter to Cloud's story. Elfe did important things as well, but it doesn't matter for VII's story.

Fooorce, you're killing me here. Weiss, Nero, Elfe; these guys weren't at Nibelheim.

And for the record, no, I could give two shites if they were included. Genesis has had a more lasting effect on the story than these guys, IMO.

It may be 'Cloud's' story, but look how much crap XV is getting right now for being 'Noctis's' story and for telling the story from his point of view as a way to get out of not elaborating on certain parts or characters in the story.

If Genesis is wiped from the compilation all together, it won't matter. BUT if Square DOES choose to include him once more, especially as an instigator of the Nibelheim Incident, then he needs to be shown there during the flashback, plain and simple. Whether or be Cloud's version of events, the version Sephiroth gives you, or the real version we're presented with, he needs to be shown.

 

[Ite]

Why (must Genesis be shown)? You don't need to show Marty McFly climbing above the prom scene in Back to the Future, because that's the story of Back to the Future II. Genesis has an entire game devoted to telling that part of the story, and even in Crisis Core, his involvement in the Nibelheim incident is ancillary at best.

When I say ancillary, I mean that the event would have gone down exactly the same if he hadn't been there. He is in NO WAY instrumental or responsible for anything that happened in that time, or else he would have been in the OG - simple as that. I've seen the Crisis Core version of the scene, but Genesis really offers no information that Sephiroth didn't already figure out on his own. That makes his presence at the incident a *detail* -- as minimal a thought as Zangan or Cloud's Mother. He is less important to the story than that nameless guy who takes your picture.

Unfortunately, Genesis can't just be a detail, because unlike Zangan, who explains himself in two dialogue boxes "I travel around the world teaching martial arts. In this town, a girl named Tifa is my student." Genesis doesn't blend in believably with the world of the flashback.

[redacted sarcastic recap of the scene because showing the scene itself gets across my point.]

Project G, Project S, Angeal, Gift of the Goddess, Apples, Degredation, Copy Cells.... NONE of these things are mentioned again. They only serve to distract from what is already a huge info dump (don't forget that for a new player, 100% of the revelations in the Nibelheim incident are new.) Why would a storyteller do such a thing??

 

[ForceStealer]

Okay, Lith, how do you propose you include that conversation in Cloud's flashback without having to make him tell the ENTIRE plot of Crisis Core? Otherwise it is super out of place and Barret will be like "what the hell are you talking about? What does this have to do with anything?" And he'll be 100% right.

EDIT: Precisely, Ite.

Whether or be Cloud's version of events, the version Sephiroth gives you, or the real version we're presented with, he needs to be shown.

Why? The original game never shows you the real version of the scene (you know, with Zack instead of Cloud). It never shows you that. Why? Because it doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You do understand I am referring to the interview with Nomura that took place 2 days ago where he literally said the Remake may not be coherent with the Compilation right?

That's almost the opposite of what he said. =P

He said the remake will smooth out some deetails from the Compilation.

How is he not relevant? He goaded Sephiroth into researching his origins, saying Jenova was a monster and that he was a monster too. I don't understand how that's not relevant. The Nibelheim Incident tells the downfall of the main villain that you're fighting throughout the entire game--it's kind of a big deal.

You're still looking at it from our perspective -- like a historian's perspective -- rather than Cloud's. Cloud is telling a story about the last time he saw Sephiroth, a villain who destroyed his hometown, killed his mother, and has just returned to threaten the entire planet. These are the things that are relevant in this time and this place to this group of people.

He's also telling this story to people who mostly have no history or knowledge of Sephiroth, and even less where Genesis is concerned.

Furthermore, understanding that Genesis may have had an impact on Sephiroth's course of action -- thus, making him relevant from a historical perspective -- requires additional knowledge Cloud simply does not have.

And furthermore, did Sephiroth's choice to investigate the Shinra Manor in the original game ever strike you as unexplained? Did you feel that it didn't make sense until you saw the scene in Crisis Core? Of course not. It serves as an additional catalyst within a historial analysis, yes, but in terms of conveying who Sephiroth is as Cloud understands him, it's not a necessary detail to include in this story he's telling in the here and now.

It always made sense to us that Sephiroth went to investigate the mansion, and it would make sense to Cloud and the people he's talking to that Sephiroth did so based just on what he brings up in his story -- which only serves to make his omission of Genesis more rational when you take into account that Genesis has nothing to do with these people or the present threat to the world; that Cloud wouldn't even understand what Genesis was talking about to begin with; and that even if Cloud did understand it (which he inarguably doesn't), he would have to go into a whole additional story to make sense of him to the people he's telling this story to.

Aaaand for that matter, ask yourself why Tifa didn't ever bring up "those weird guys who attacked the reactor while 'you' were inside," neither here nor later in the Lifestream, if any of those details were needed for the rest of the team to understand the story Cloud was telling about Sephiroth in Kalm. She was closer to the situation than them and seemed to find the story he told rational enough, even if there were parts of it that didn't make any sense for other reasons.

If Genesis is wiped from the compilation all together, it won't matter. BUT if Square DOES choose to include him once more, especially as an instigator of the Nibelheim Incident, then he needs to be shown there during the flashback, plain and simple. Whether or be Cloud's version of events, the version Sephiroth gives you, or the real version we're presented with, he needs to be shown.

That moment with the reactor pod cracking open was only ever shown once in the original game, and that was during Cloud's initial story in Kalm. Sephiroth didn't return to that moment, and there was no reason for it to come up during the Lifestream sequence. That's even in the original game.

As such, there's no reason it needs to come up again during the Lifestream sequence here. If it does, fine, it's not going to hurt anything (except possibly pacing and narrative impact), but it's definitely not necessary.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I'm not going to keep explaining why I think Genesis should be in Nibelheim over and over when I have previous posts that illustrate why I think that way.

I get that Genesis literally brings nothing to the table, I really do; the scene went just fine in the OG. It didn't need Genesis added in CC to make the impact or implications of those scenes any greater than what they already were.

What I'm saying is that if Square decides to put him back in the story as someone who was there it is only fitting that he be shown there. The Nibelheim Incident isn't some small plot point that can be glossed over--much of FFVII revolves around what happened there. Offering a complete picture of the events as they happened once the party finally does get the whole truth is just good storytelling. I don't understand why that would be an issue or why it would it would disrupt pacing. I'm not asking the writers to revolve the story around Genesis (oh god no), I just want the character who was retconned into being there to be acknowledged as... being there. If they decide to even put him there.

I really can't break it down more Barney style than this. This is just what I think, plain and simple. If they retcon him out, I'm for it. But if they say (or the characters say) that he was there, put him there.

Aaaand for that matter, ask yourself why Tifa didn't ever bring up "those weird guys who attacked the reactor while 'you' were inside," neither here nor later in the Lifestream

Maybe because Crisis Core wasn't even a thought when the OG was made, and that's why they weren't mentioned?

 

[ForceStealer]

But the whole POINT of why they put him where they put him in Crisis Core was specifically so that it wouldn't affect Cloud's telling of the story. Otherwise they probably would have also put him in every other cutscene!

And FF7 never gives you a complete story. When you see the Lifestream sequence, it's presented out of order and relevant exclusively to Cloud recapturing his sense of identity. They don't show you the whole Kalm thing again "the right way."

Aaaand for that matter, ask yourself why Tifa didn't ever bring up "those weird guys who attacked the reactor while 'you' were inside," neither here nor later in the Lifestream

Maybe because Crisis Core wasn't even a thought when the OG was made, and that's why they weren't mentioned?

That's not the point. The point is that Genesis didn't change Sephiroth's motives. They added a catalyst. But Genesis' involvement didn't change what Sephiroth actually did. Ancillary, as Ite put it.

Project G, Project S, Angeal, Gift of the Goddess, Apples, Degredation, Copy Cells.... NONE of these things are mentioned again. They only serve to distract from what is already a huge info dump (don't forget that for a new player, 100% of the revelations in the Nibelheim incident are new.) Why would a storyteller do such a thing??

At least give us your answer to this.

XV getting crap for excluding stuff as just being Noctis' story is because characters IMPORTANT to Noctis' story like Ravus go without explanation. Throwing Genesis in for just that story moment without explaining what the hell he's talking about would be doing that from the other angle.