How Insane Do You Think Lucrecia Was?

[jazzflower92]

Some people think that Lucrecia was a wholly innocent player in the Jenova Project and didn't know fully what she was getting herself into. However, some are not that forgiving especially after her depiction in Dirge of Cerberus. A lot of people she was more insane than she let on because any one with a hint of morality would question experimenting on their own unborn child. Not to mention how she immaturely brushes off any concern from the man that truly loves her. Lets not forget how she got her mentor killed in an accident because she was greedy for knowledge.

 

[Octo]

Well, insanity is a funny thing. There are loads of murderers who have been declared sane - even though their actions would be unconscionable to most people. So I think she was sane but she was selfish and callous.

 

[Splintered]

I don't think she was as insane as any other ultimately selfish person. Insane people don't understand the culpability of their actions, or deride weird pleasure from it, she understood what she was doing was stupid she just ignored it. Not crazy, just weak.

Actually I should go back and replay or watch DoC, my memory of why she did all of this is fuzzy. It was a mixture of scientific curiosity and grief over Vincet's father, right?

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, insanity is a funny thing. There are loads of murderers who have been declared sane - even though their actions would be unconscionable to most people. So I think she was sane but she was selfish and callous.

I can agree with that. It all came from the fact that she was a very ambitious person who would do anything in order to achieve her mark in the science world.

 

[Dante]

I don't think Lucrecia was insane. I think she was struggling from post tramatic stress due to her mentor's death which the game shows she felt horrible for. She's a science zealot who got messed up by Hojo and tried not to fall in love with Vincent (although I do think she loved him).

 

[Clement Rage]

I think you're being a bit harsh. There was no reason to expect the Mako fountain to explode, and as for brushing off Vincent... he's a Turk, the department that specialises in kidnapping people for unethical experiments, he can't really claim moral high ground.

 

[Skan]

Just gonna point out that after Sephiroth was born, Lucrecia did not see him for 4-7 years and instead spent that time doing other things.

I don't know if she was insane -- human experiments, though immoral, seem to have been slightly more acceptable -- but she sure was neglectful.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Not very. She knew what she was getting into and in the end she knows she screwed up. Actually... Hojo isn't that insane either. Neither was Hollander. All of them knew what they were doing and were doing it on purpose.

Now, do they have messed up morals? Yeah, big time. Are they following those morals to their logical concussions? Yup. None of them can claim that they had no control over their actions.

 

[jazzflower92]

Not very. She knew what she was getting into and in the end she knows she screwed up. Actually... Hojo isn't that insane either. Neither was Hollander. All of them knew what they were doing and were doing it on purpose.

Now, do they have messed up morals? Yeah, big time. Are they following those morals to their logical concussions? Yup. None of them can claim that they had no control over their actions.

About Hojo I would rightfully say he is insane because who in their right mind would force someone to breed with a lion/wolf thing. Not to mention how at the end of the game that he helps Sephiroth try to destroy the world.

 

[Unlucky]

Luc's not insane. She's just selfish and immoral. And incredibly stupid.

 

[Octo]

About Hojo I would rightfully say he is insane because who in their right mind would force someone to breed with a lion/wolf thing. Not to mention how at the end of the game that he helps Sephiroth try to destroy the world.

Re: The breeding - his reason for that was to prolong the bloodline of the ancients, he'd calculated it would take many many years to do the research. He'd figured out that Red XII's species are long lived. Now, as to why he thought that they would just breed together just like that - I have no idea. He had no way of knowing that it would even work - and he was jeapordising Aerith, Red could have just killed her. So I don't know why he didn't just do some sort of artificial insemination thing. So his method was wrong, even if his reasoning wasn't.

As for helping Sephiroth, I guess he figured that everybody was going to die anyway, that there wasn't a chance of Sephiroth being defeated. Maybe he just wanted to see his experiment through to the end? But yeah, he had definitely gone off the deep end by then.

EDIT: Looking back at the script, it's unclear to me whether he intended HO512 to be part of that experiment.

 

[Super Mario]

She's never insane to begin with but I will give her crazy points for thinking ditching vincent for hojo was a smart idea AND using her child as an experiment. All around she's "Smart" as tywin lannister sarcastically puts it.

 

[GiinJoww]

My head canon is that Lucrecia wasn't insane at all. She was an ambitious scientist who I would assume to have been on the same level as Hojo, working alongside him in the Jenova Project. Given Vincent's statement after he was rejected and saw her with Hojo I simply assumed that she was happy with the other scientist and liked him more than Vincent. Any other reasons I can think of for that choice would just be speculation.

Lucrecia felt ashamed about the project because she knew that if the knowledge were made public she'd be seen as a monster or simply because it was Vincent who disapproved of her choice or both. Her ambition combined with the justification that they were creating a Cetra, not a monster, made her follow through with the project. Lucrecia stated in game that she never got to hold Sephiroth, but that doesn't mean that she didn't get to see him. She was still a scientist involved in the project after all. We're not even told at what point in time she disappeared or when she collapsed.

Then Gast discovered that Jenova was not a Cetra and Lucrecia felt horrible. On top of that, she was deforming. I think that's when she had her breakdown. Since she couldn't kill herself she just ran away and locked herself in a cave. She couldn't go back to society, she couldn't continue her career, and she couldn't be a mother to Sephiroth.

I think writing her off as insane takes a lot away from her character in an attempt to justify or explain away.

 

[Skan]

I actually went through the cutscenes to double-check, but Lucrecia does in fact say, "Let me see him! Just once!" So yeah, she hasn't seen Sephiroth in at least four years. (Well, actually closer to seven years, I'm pretty sure.)

I'm not certain that Lucrecia was actually "deforming" (no evidence) and that she physically couldn't kill herself. Gillian's obviously written to be a Lucrecia parallel and had no trouble offing herself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, we are told that there were some differences in the experiments with Gillian and Lucrecia. The latter was pregnant when she received Jenova's cells, Gillian wasn't. There may have also been differences in how much they received, where they were injected, etc. that could matter.

It's alien tissue, so they can make it do whatever they want.

As for Lucrecia deforming, that was originally intended to be what happened (the Ultimania Omega for VII even mentions it), but it looks like they decided to do that differently by the time Dirge of Cerberus came along.

 

[jazzflower92]

Well, we are told that there were some differences in the experiments with Gillian and Lucrecia. The latter was pregnant when she received Jenova's cells, Gillian wasn't. There may have also been differences in how much they received, where they were injected, etc. that could matter.

It's alien tissue, so they can make it do whatever they want.

As for Lucrecia deforming, that was originally intended to be what happened (the Ultimania Omega for VII even mentions it), but it looks like they decided to do that differently by the time Dirge of Cerberus came along.

It is expected at this point that the Compilation will have a ton of retcons that contradict what was in the original Ultimania Omega's.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I think she was extremely confused, hiding from her own emotions, made some remarkably bad decisions in service to the previous point—something that I will point out is also true of a LOT of real life humans—and then on top of that likely suffered from some degree of hormonal madness and/or post-partum depression during and after pregnancy.

Let's also keep in mind that there weren't a whole lot of women in science in her day, while we're judging her for being a little overly gung-ho about proving herself. Don't you think it's likely that she constantly faced implications that she was less than her peers on the basis of her genitals rather than her brains? For crying out loud, her biggest contribution to the Jenova Project was via her womb. Cut sister a break for wanting to prove herself so badly.

So all in all: normal, very realistic levels of crazy. I've known crazier.

Just gonna point out that after Sephiroth was born, Lucrecia did not see him for 4-7 years and instead spent that time doing other things.

Where are you getting that timeline from?

 

[Octo]

Nah, I'm can't in good conscience cut someone a break for subjecting their child (or indeed anybody elses) to bizarre experiments when the outcome is totally unpredictable and they have no idea of what kind of suffering they could be inflicting. Just 'because patriarchy' or 'because feminisim' or something. No siree.

The only way it worked - to make her a sympathetic character - is if she was forced to do it - with Hojo that is very possible - and we vaguely had that impression from the OG, but then in the compliation they decided to make it seem as if she was willing - which was a terrible descision in my opinion.

How it should have gone down - Lucrecia tries to escape Hojo, Vincent tries to help but is shot and experimented on in the process and Lucrecia ends up back in Hojo's clutches. But that didn't happen. Because SE are rubbish at making things make sense.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's true we don't have a lot to go on, but as far as science goes, women don't seem under-represented in the world of FFVII. We meet three scientists by name in the OG - Hojo, Lucretia, and Shera - and two of them are women. Shalua Rui is a scientist in DoC, and there's Dr Rayleigh in Before Crisis. Admittedly that's only four named female scientists, vis-a-vis the big three of male scientists - Hojo, Hollander, Gast. And I don't think there are any female scientist character models in Crisis Core, but I suspect that was done by the developers on the ground of saving money. None of these women ever say that it's hard being a woman working in science, so.... This may be a way in which their world is different from ours?

Lucretia does attract a lot of apologists. She seems to be a very polarizing character. Personally, I like to think she was truly in love with Hojo and totally on board with the program; that she never wanted kids and was dedicated to her career. It was only after he was born that the enormity of what she'd done began to dawn on her.

 

[Roger]

It's true we don't have a lot to go on, but as far as science goes, women don't seem under-represented in the world of FFVII. We meet three scientists by name in the OG - Hojo, Lucretia, and Shera - and two of them are women. Shalua Rui is a scientist in DoC, and there's Dr Rayleigh in Before Crisis. Admittedly that's only four named female scientists, vis-a-vis the big three of male scientists - Hojo, Hollander, Gast. And I don't think there are any female scientist character models in Crisis Core, but I suspect that was done by the developers on the ground of saving money. None of these women ever say that it's hard being a woman working in science, so.... This may be a way in which their world is different from ours?

Lucretia does attract a lot of apologists. She seems to be a very polarizing character. Personally, I like to think she was truly in love with Hojo and totally on board with the program; that she never wanted kids and was dedicated to her career. It was only after he was born that the enormity of what she'd done began to dawn on her.

Gillian Hewley was a scientist, it was for her knowledge that Genesis needed to keep her alive.

 

[Skan]

Where are you getting that timeline from?

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...omplete-timeline-of-the-compilation-of-ffvii/

It's actually closer to 7 years, probably. I don't have quite enough time to elaborate atm, but I think Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth were born in the fall/winter of 1977 or early 1978. Quite a lot of this is inferred from the fact that Gast left ShinRa in 1980, but Sephiroth claims to still remember conversations with him. The earliest childhood memories that people tend to have are from the age of 3.

Vincent gets shot in 1984 and Lucrecia leaves the same year. In-game dialogue suggests that Lucrecia hasn't seen Sephiroth since he was born.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Seph remembered the view from the room he was born in too, though, so it's likely the Jenova genes could imprint anything at any time.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

The only way it worked - to make her a sympathetic character - is if she was forced to do it - with Hojo that is very possible

And yet Hojo still has more fans willing to sympathize with him despite the fact that he was definitely, without a shade of doubt, morally fucked up and the cause of most fucked-upness in FF7C. So yes, I'm calling "feminism" on Lucrecia not being afforded the same benefits of the doubt.

Gillian Hewley was a scientist, it was for her knowledge that Genesis needed to keep her alive.

And she is the only one who is a peer of Lucrecia. I'm sure someone savvy on the topic could name more female scientists in 1990-2000 than in 1970 in real life also.

And Gillian's primary contribution to science was also having a baby. Not making a stellar case for ShinRa's appreciation of female intellectuals here.

Of all the scientists that we know to have existed in FF7 around the time of the Jenova Project, all females were used in experiments for their reproductive purposes and all males were either leading the department, their own projects, and/or up for consideration of becoming head of the department at some point.

I am thinking of Hojo, Gast, Hollander, Grimoire, Lucrecia, and Gillian. Please remind me if I am forgetting anyone.

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...omplete-timeline-of-the-compilation-of-ffvii/

It's actually closer to 7 years, probably. I don't have quite enough time to elaborate atm, but I think Genesis, Angeal, and Sephiroth were born in the fall/winter of 1977 or early 1978. Quite a lot of this is inferred from the fact that Gast left ShinRa in 1980, but Sephiroth claims to still remember conversations with him. The earliest childhood memories that people tend to have are from the age of 3.

Seph remembered the view from the room he was born in too, though, so it's likely the Jenova genes could imprint anything at any time.

Yeah that timeline seems to go against everything the actual game content suggests. I remember now that I think there's a printed timeline in an ultimania book or something that places Vincent's shooting around "23 years ago," but I think they meant to imply that Sephiroth is around 23-24. Which I also think is stupid, as he should be closer to 30, but when was Japan ever wise about giving realistic ages to RPG characters? Yuffie and Shelke would be interested in knowing.

Come to think of it, I think the only character that ever cites the specific number of 30 (for the amount of time that has lapsed between the Jenova Project and FF7) is an NPC in Cosmo Canyon who says that Professor Gast discovered Jenova 30 years ago. (Or it may have even been "about 30 years ago," placing the actual event anywhere in the 28-32 years ago range.) It stands to reason that Jenova would have been discovered before they started doing experiments with her, and I'm more willing to buy that a few years lapsed between the discovery of Jenova and the birth of Sephiroth than the birth of Sephiroth and Lucrecia regretting her life choices.

Seems like a bit of a plot hole to not leave enough room between the time of Sephiroth's birth and the time of Aeris's birth for Seph to have gotten chummy with Gast, but Twilight Mexican makes a solid point regarding that, too.

And maybe Sephiroth even misremembers and thinks he was closer to Gast than he actually was. Maybe he infers that because he has memories from being an infant and that doesn't logically reconcile with what he actually knows about human memory. Tifa misremembered how close she and Cloud were and that wasn't even Jenova related, and Cloud had all sorts of problems with his memories not reconciling with other memories and information. Given that Sephiroth goes mad when he learns the truth about his creation, it's not outlandish to suggest that, up to that point, his subconscious may have been editing unsavory info that might have caused him to realize it sooner. That's already a plot theme with Cloud. Maybe even the whole plot reason for Lucrecia and Sephiroth never seeing each other is so that he wouldn't have memories of a mother at all, even from infancy.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And yet Hojo still has more fans willing to sympathize with him despite the fact that he was definitely, without a shade of doubt, morally fucked up and the cause of most fucked-upness in FF7C. So yes, I'm calling "feminism" on Lucrecia not being afforded the same benefits of the doubt.

Is it more morally reprehensible to agree to be led by a fucked-up person than to be fucked-up oneself? It's a good question.

And she is the only one who is a peer of Lucrecia. I'm sure someone savvy on the topic could name more female scientists in 1990-2000 than in 1970 in real life also.

I listed some in my post. Did you mean age-peer?

And Gillian's primary contribution to science was also having a baby. Not making a stellar case for ShinRa's appreciation of female intellectuals here.

Why are you jumping to the conclusion that Gillian's primary contribution to science was having the baby? That's like saying Hollander's primary contribution was fathering the baby. We don't know what else she contributed to the project. She was left to rear the baby, after all. She might have been running experiments on him and Genesis and writing up lab reports the whole time.

Of all the scientists that we know to have existed in FF7 around the time of the Jenova Project, all females were used in experiments for their reproductive purposes and all males were either leading the department, their own projects, and/or up for consideration of becoming head of the department at some point.

I am thinking of Hojo, Gast, Hollander, Grimoire, Lucrecia, and Gillian. Please remind me if I am forgetting anyone.

Well, that is true, but it's because the story-line is focused on the family relationships of the parents of the project's progeny. Nobody is mentioned who isn't either a father or a mother to either a Cetra or one of the Jenova project offspring. In other parts of the Compilation female scientists are mentioned: Dr Rayleigh, Shalua Rui, and Shera to name but three. Obviously they all have problems and conflicts of their own; there isn't room in the narrative for passengers. (Except Dr Rayleigh, but she is a minor character).

It would definitely have been interesting to see a woman taking on the role of the main scientist and experimenting without remorse on her own child (like Leonard's mother in Big Bang Theory!) But I think it would have muddled what the developers were aiming at with Jenova, to have a real Bad Mother running the science department.

Seems like a bit of a plot hole to not leave enough room between the time of Sephiroth's birth and the time of Aeris's birth for Seph to have gotten chummy with Gast, but Twilight Mexican makes a solid point regarding that, too.

And maybe Sephiroth even misremembers and thinks he was closer to Gast than he actually was. Maybe he infers that because he has memories from being an infant and that doesn't logically reconcile with what he actually knows about human memory. Tifa misremembered how close she and Cloud were and that wasn't even Jenova related, and Cloud had all sorts of problems with his memories not reconciling with other memories and information. Given that Sephiroth goes mad when he learns the truth about his creation, it's not outlandish to suggest that, up to that point, his subconscious may have been editing unsavory info that might have caused him to realize it sooner. That's already a plot theme with Cloud. Maybe even the whole plot reason for Lucrecia and Sephiroth never seeing each other is so that he wouldn't have memories of a mother at all, even from infancy.

That makes sense. Memory and Forgetting is a huge theme of the whole game. It's too bad Lucretia didn't get a chance to imprint on her son; it would have weakened Jenova's hold on him considerably.

 

[Octo]

I've never, in 17 years of being in this fandom, encountered a Hojo fan. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't know (or want to know) where they're lurking.

Anyway, I'm not giving Hojo any breaks either - although he is an sterotypical mad scientist you can automatically tell that he is fucked in the head. Nobody is meant to like Hojo as far as I can see. Lucrecia should be a sympathetic character, but they fucked her over in the compilation imo.