How splitting the story into multiple parts can work

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
Greetings everyone!

I have been following several discussions around the internet about this whole multi-part fiasco, especially about the splitting points and how splitting an already complete story into multiple parts can work out.

Because of this, I recently uploaded a discussion video on my YouTube channel, where I try to pinpoint the best splitting points and give an elaborate explanation to my conclusion. This video is the first of a new discussion series to revitalize my channel.

I'd love to read your opinion about my take on this subject and constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.
Your feedback will also help improve this new series of mine as well as video content quality in general.

(I hope you don't mind this shameless "self-advertising", but posting a video is much easier and more convenient to consume than a 15 page document in my opinion.)

Quick warning before you watch the video: it's rather long (close to 50 minutes) and full of spoilers.

Anyway, here you go:
https://youtu.be/NJAewudXH0A

This is my first time posting here. I'm pleased to meet you all :)

- Vyzz
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Greetings & salutations! I moved this thread out from our automated spam checker, so if it was meant to be somewhere else, just lemme know, and I'll move it.

Note: The system will flag attempts by new accounts posting links, after you've posted a bit more around here, it'll allow you to do that like everyone else.





X :neo:
 

Lex

Administrator
Greetings everyone!

I have been following several discussions around the internet about this whole multi-part fiasco, especially about the splitting points and how splitting an already complete story into multiple parts can work out.

Because of this, I recently uploaded a discussion video on my YouTube channel, where I try to pinpoint the best splitting points and give an elaborate explanation to my conclusion. This video is the first of a new discussion series to revitalize my channel.

I'd love to read your opinion about my take on this subject and constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.
Your feedback will also help improve this new series of mine as well as video content quality in general.

(I hope you don't mind this shameless "self-advertising", but posting a video is much easier and more convenient to consume than a 15 page document in my opinion.)

Quick warning before you watch the video: it's rather long (close to 50 minutes) and full of spoilers.

Anyway, here you go:
https://youtu.be/NJAewudXH0A

This is my first time posting here. I'm pleased to meet you all :)

- Vyzz

Welcome to The Lifestream.

It's a hot topic when it comes to the remake, I'll be sure to give your video a listen at some point soon and post some thoughts when I can :)
 

Pixel

The Pixie King
I agree 100% with these split points.

I was going to make this kind of video for our channel, but Ive seen so many opinions about this subject that my opinion isn't really representative of everyone here.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Great discussion/analysis video! As for you’re split points I am 100% in agreement with your second part (presuming trilogy format as you stated) split placing. Sephiroth summoning meteor and the weapons awakening isn’t the perfect place to end the second part, and the escape from Junon a great opener for the third and final part. As for your choice of the first split placing, I think you made a great argument and definitely convinced me more how ending at the escape from Midgar could be a viable point, however, I am still in the camp that thinks the ship to Costa Del Sol and the first Jenova fight would be the best place to end the first part. While it’s not as much of a narrative “New world” transition it still has elements of that. Also I think the boat could still work as a final dungeon (or perhaps a final stage of a multi-part dungeon/trial that included Junon as part of it), and it would create a nice thematic parallel with each part’s final boss being Sephiroth/Jenova related. Also I think Square Enix might be of the mind of feeling it being very important to feature Sephiroth in a visible/tangible role during some part of the first entry, I don’t think Rufus Shinra/pursuit highway machines works well enough as a final boss for the first entry. Also while I do think Midgar will definitely be expanded in terms of content, I think could be in the best interests of SE to have the first/eastern continent accessible in the first part so the audience can get a good idea of what to expect in terms of exploring the “overworld/world map”. If they don’t go with the ship to Costa Del Sol being the ending point of the first part, I definitely agree the escape from Midgar is the only other viable/good place to end the first part at.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
1. Midgar

2. Midgar departure > Summoning of Meteor

3. Tifa waking up > Fin

Storywise this can work but it tasks the second entry with rendering the entire gameworld outside of Midgar, I don't think that's a great division of labour. I think the Temple of the Ancients can be turned into a good final dungeon if Midgar can be turned into a proper gameworld.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
It's not a bad split story-wise. Though Minato does raise a decent point.

I became more accepting of the multiple-parts thing when it seemed the intent was to get the game out faster. Since that is clearly not the case, I say they should've just made the whole damn thing.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
1. Midgar

2. Midgar departure > Summoning of Meteor

3. Tifa waking up > Fin

Storywise this can work but it tasks the second entry with rendering the entire gameworld outside of Midgar, I don't think that's a great division of labour. I think the Temple of the Ancients can be turned into a good final dungeon if Midgar can be turned into a proper gameworld.

So would the Temple of the Ancients be the final dungeon/splitting point for between the second and third parts in your hypothetical scenario? I presume you’re not suggesting for it to be the end point for the first part since that would likely make the first part way too big/lopsided in terms of narrative.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
1. Midgar

2. Midgar departure > Summoning of Meteor

3. Tifa waking up > Fin

Storywise this can work but it tasks the second entry with rendering the entire gameworld outside of Midgar, I don't think that's a great division of labour. I think the Temple of the Ancients can be turned into a good final dungeon if Midgar can be turned into a proper gameworld.

So would the Temple of the Ancients be the final dungeon/splitting point for between the second and third parts in your hypothetical scenario? I presume you’re not suggesting for it to be the end point for the first part since that would likely make the first part way too big/lopsided in terms of narrative.

Yeah, end of the second part. Begin with the chase for Sephiroth, which turns into a race for the Black Materia, end with the crew losing that race. Boss fights, Aerith leaving, Cloud's lack of control over his own actions being revealed.
 

ChipNoir

Pro Adventurer
I feel the opposite about the work-load issue. I think if anything this works in Square's favor depending on how they do this. They can get a lot of the location work done with one team, while a bigger team works on the entirety of part one, particularly Midgar.

Then by the time part 1 is done, part two's bigger world will be well under way, and just needs to be wrapped up, and all of the character models and engine elements are already done to be integrated with this world, and with part III, it's literally just creating any models that don't already exist, and scripting sequences.

It's a really effective way to do a trilogy like this, since it IS all set in one world, and within one console generation (Mostly?) in potentially a 2-3 year span. Its pretty much going to be the LOTR's of gaming in that sense.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
Greetings & salutations! I moved this thread out from our automated spam checker, so if it was meant to be somewhere else, just lemme know, and I'll move it.

Note: The system will flag attempts by new accounts posting links, after you've posted a bit more around here, it'll allow you to do that like everyone else.

Oh, so that's why I couldn't find the thread in the FFVII Remake forum. I intended to post it there (with the video link), but it wouldn't let me because of the restriction you mentioned. Then I tried to create the thread again a day later, but with my YouTube channel name and the video title instead of the direct link. This worked, but it told me the thread post is under manual approval or something.

So yeah, I intended for this thread to be in the FFVII Remake forum.
What happened to my second attempt of this thread anyway? Purgatory? :monster:


@all: Theozilla and I had a great discussion on the comment section of my video, so I recommend checking that out.

@Temple of the Ancients: I agree on the part of it being a great candidate for a final dungeon. Story-wise however, it's not optimal at all, as described in the video. In my opinion, splitting the story into self-contained arcs is much more important than gameplay content, since the latter is much more flexible. Also, creating all the locations for my suggested part 2 can be doable, as long as they don't go the open world route. That way, they can cheat a little and only show the parts we actually need to go through and not the whole planet (if this makes any sense). Part 2 lends itself to a mostly linear game progression, which isn't as taxing as a seamless open world (see FFXV's problems). As for the balancing of the workload for each part, I'll let ChipNoir's post speak for itself.

I feel the opposite about the work-load issue. I think if anything this works in Square's favor depending on how they do this. They can get a lot of the location work done with one team, while a bigger team works on the entirety of part one, particularly Midgar.

Then by the time part 1 is done, part two's bigger world will be well under way, and just needs to be wrapped up, and all of the character models and engine elements are already done to be integrated with this world, and with part III, it's literally just creating any models that don't already exist, and scripting sequences.

It's a really effective way to do a trilogy like this, since it IS all set in one world, and within one console generation (Mostly?) in potentially a 2-3 year span. Its pretty much going to be the LOTR's of gaming in that sense.
 

Lex

Administrator
See to be honest the more I think about it the less it makes sense for Part 1 to be "Just Midgar" unless they're planning more than three parts.

Assuming it's 3 games, the point made earlier in the thread about each game ending with a Jenova boss fight, and each game featuring a pivotal Sephiroth moment makes the most sense. With this in mind:

Part 1: Kalm flashback, Jenova fight on boat. End with cutscene travelling to next continent. The first half to 3/4 of the game within Midgar.

Part 2: Costa Del Sol to meteor summoning. It's end-loaded with the crater Jenova boss and another pivotal Sephiroth scene. And of course Aerith's "moment" occurring somewhere two-thirds of the way in to the game. I think it's crucial this doesn't happen at the end of any "part" because part of their original intention was to have the player feel her loss not just in a narrative sense, and from a gameplay perspective the impact is gone if they don't continue within the same game after this moment.

Part 3: Narratively a lot of the bigger set-piece moments would then happen here, but it's also the least chunky in terms of set-up storytelling because almost everything that happens at this point in the game is a continuation or reaction to things we already know (it is the conclusion piece after all).

If we further break that down very loosely into the three-acts (set-up, conflict, resolution) of traditional storytelling:

BEGINNING

FFVII:R1

Act 1: Introduction to the world and its characters, we learn about Shinra. Shinra take Aerith. (I suspect a shitload more exposition/ story/ missions in here)

Act 2: Our conflict so far in part 1 is with Shinra from the Avalanche perspective. We go to rescue Aerith and learn (a little) about Jenova and Sephiroth, which becomes more setup within an already set-up conflict. Within act 2 we resolve a minor conflict and toward the end of it move outside of Midgar. Depending on whatever works better, Act 2 either ends with the characters standing on the edge of that highway discussing "where do we go now?" or it ends at the resolution of the Kalm Flashback where they resolve to continue. I think at the end of the Kalm Flashback works better.

Act 3: Our resolution for R1:A3 is essentially "we know the true enemy's face" in that you fight Jenova for the first time. I think that could make for an excellent final boss but I also think they'll have to do something narratively to the moments between Kalm and the boat to make it all fit as a final act. I can definitely see it working though - Fort Condor for example can be used as a place for the characters to rest while making the journey to Junon. We'll potentially only see a slice of Junon here and more of it in a later game. The could put Yuffie somewhere in here but she'd fit much better in Act 1 of Part 2.

FFVII:R2

Act 1: The "set-up" portion here is the introduction to the rest of the characters and our character exposition story beats (Corel, Cosmo Canyon etc.). Act 1 essentially ends at Wutai, assuming they include that as a progression requirement (which they should IMO) and learning about the Keystone - in the OG this would be when you get the Tiny Bronco. Narratively it makes the most sense to wind up at Wutai before learning about the keystone. This means also that if they're keeping the Yuffie-steals-your-materia segment then you have to recruit her very early in this game, so that she's with you for a fair portion of time before the betrayal.

Act 2: This is probably the most easily defined "conflict" act. You look for and find the keystone, are betrayed, go through Temple of the Ancients, lose Aerith, track her down and the inevitable happens. Act 2 ends in the obvious place. They can likely add in story beats here that weren't in the original, such as the quest to find the keystone. I'm personally hoping for a bit more Cetra exposition at this point.

Act 3: Act 3 is just about loss and the world being flipped on its head in more ways than one. With characters that will be voice acted I'm really hoping they do this justice. If you're walking through the frozen tundra or hiking up the mountain the setting is such that it should be easy to have the characters VA's reflect the bleak atmosphere after the loss. The end of Act 3 is obviously Jenova fight - Cloud's breakdown/ betrayal - meteor.

FFVII:R3

Act 1: Easy set up at first. Tifa wakes up in Junon after a period of time and we learn the current state of the world. Here is where we might see radical change - they could remove the huge materia sub-plot entirely (not much of value is lost there) and give Tifa more time to lead the group before finding Cloud and handing the reigns to Cid. Assuming however that they keep that sub-plot, we'd see that playing out in Act 1. So essentially finding Cloud, Corel, Fort Condor (this would work better I think if Tifa leads and they find Cloud after dealing with the huge materia stuff in those areas first). Then we get Cloud's realisation/ recovery, the rest of the huge materia stuff (space etc.) and so on. Act 1 ends back in the Forgotten Capital with Bugenhagen.

Act 2: The conflict here obviously being Weapon, Return to Midgar, Hojo. Lots of room here for character resolution moments, I'm thinking Vincent/ Lucrecia, RedXIII/ Bugenhagen, Zack flashbacks etc.

Act 3: The end, pretty self explanatory.

END

Idk I think I might collect my thoughts better and write an opinion piece for the front page on this issue. But you get the gist, with this structure it would make sense to split them in that manner. They all end with Jenova/ Sephiroth, they all deliver pivotal character and villain-centric moments, and they're all fairly evenly split in terms of narrative length. The biggest problem is actually Act 1 of Part 3 because of the huge materia quest, but I have no idea how to include an underwater reactor and going in to space while also removing that subplot. They could always just write it better this time lol.
 

Mage

She/They
AKA
Mage
Summary of the video pl0x? I'd rather spend an hour of online viewing with Rick and Morty TBH (no offence new dude, I've only just gotten into it).
 

ChipNoir

Pro Adventurer
Summary of the video pl0x? I'd rather spend an hour of online viewing with Rick and Morty TBH (no offence new dude, I've only just gotten into it).

Based on the three act structure of film and literature, the creator of the video predicts that Final Fantasy VII-R as a series will be divided into three parts.

Part one: Beginning to leaving Midgar
Part two: Kalm/Flashback to Sephiroth summoning meteor
Part three: Junon to end game.
 

Mage

She/They
AKA
Mage
Seems logical, I've seen that much discussion of it I honestly thought that was a done deal already. I liked Lex's breakdown though, it flows better IMO.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
See to be honest the more I think about it the less it makes sense for Part 1 to be "Just Midgar" unless they're planning more than three parts.

Assuming it's 3 games, the point made earlier in the thread about each game ending with a Jenova boss fight, and each game featuring a pivotal Sephiroth moment makes the most sense.

Thanks for the elaboration on your argument. Was a nice read.

However, I still can't get on board with the split after the first continent.
All arguments for this splitting point I've heard so far ultimately result in "it would be cool", "this makes sense" or in this specific instance "each part would have a Jenova battle at the end and it is Sephiroth related".
The problem is, all those arguments are rather superficial and don't take the whole picture into account. Neither do they honour a complete story arc that results in a self-contained game.

A game, if it shouldn't feel like just a chopped piece of one whole thing, needs to have a clear beginning, middle and end, where the end concludes what has been established and set up in the beginning. The middle describes the conflict specifically leading to that end and not something in another game. At least not directly.

If you split FFVII's story after the cargo ship segment, you don't have a complete story arc and thus not a self-contained game.

Now, I'll repost my replies to Theozilla in the comment section of my video (I don't feel like typing up everything again, because I'm lazy).

I know what you mean. However, there are more downsides than positives if you split the game/story anywhere between Kalm and the City of the Ancients (as described in the video). Even if they somehow manage to create an awesome last dungeon out of Junon and the cargo ship, ending with the first Jenova encounter would feel anti-climactic, especially because there's no real sense of victory. the cargo ship is just a mere pit stop along their chase for Sephiroth. Another problem arises when you start the next game at Costa Del Sol. Nothing really happens there, neither does on the way to Gold Saucer. And even in Gold Saucer, there's not much going on in terms of the main plot. It essentially is a big character side-quest. This would result in a horrible start of part 2. Just compare it to the original beginning, the flashback and the execution at Junon. All those 3 events are essential to the story and will suck the player right into the game. When starting part 2 at Costa Del Sol, not so much.

I do respect your opinion, don't get me wrong. I just can't come up with anything for that particular splitting point that results in a net positive for the game.

Keep in mind that I'm going with the assumption that they keep the main storyline intact and only change the details and the parts between important plot points. If they mess with the story progression we know and twist everything around... well, then anything can happen. I just hope they don't take their liberties at changing things that far.
Concerning Sephiroth and an overworld in part 1, I don't see any reason to force those 2 things in. If each game will have its own unique experience, focusing on Shinra and Midgar alone is in my opinion enough. Sephiroth is the main Villain in part 2, so let Shinra have the spotlight in part 1. Same goes for the overworld. Let part 1 have Midgar and part 1 the rest of the planet. I think it's much better to separate the games as much as possible to actually warrant 3 parts. They should feel like 3 individual games. Otherwise, they would feel like one game chopped up into pieces, which is exactly what many fans are afraid of happening. Lastly, focus is important. If you throw in too many elements, the game ends up being a mess.

The difference to FFXV is that pushing the car is setting up the main theme and protagonists of the game. The 4 bros and their relationship, their journey through the world and their most loyal companion, the Regalia. It's not an action packed hook, I agree, but it is an integral part of the story and theme they wanted to convey right from the start. Although I would be a little cautious taking FFXV as a comparison, since that game has some severe storytelling flaws. While I actually liked the car pushing part, the small segment before which showed a glimpse of the endgame was unnecessary and didn't serve any real purpose in my opinion. Now when you look at Costa Del Sol, it doesn't set up anything related to the main story and theme and merely serves as a breather after the whole intense Junon and cargo ship segment (and fleshes out the characters a little bit more). That's my whole problem with this splitting point. Yes, they could change things around heavily to force some sort of viable story setup, but I'm convinced that would hurt the game more than the small benefits are worth.

Let's have a look at the 3 starting points of my suggestion again. The Bombing Mission sets up the conflict against Shinra, Avalanche, their motivations as well as the concept of Mako and why Shinra is bad. During the Midgar segment, everything revolves around those things. In the flashback, we learn about Sephiroth, the main villain of the whole story, Cloud's past and screwed up memories are set up for the reveal at the Northern Crater and there's more Exposition for Mako. Furthermore, the character's motivation for the whole Sephiroth chase part are aslo set up there. During the Junon execution segment, the 3 main threats of part 3 are revealed. Shinra is relevant again and as menacing as ever, the Weapons emerge and with Meteor, the doomsday clock starts counting down. During part 3, we eliminate all those 3 threats.

Now let's return to Costa Del Sol. What is being introduced and set up there that will be worked towards during part 2 and also concluded at the end? I can't think of a single thing. And that's precisely the issue I have with this splitting point. I just can't get aboard the part-1-first-continent train.

In the end, I think a good self-contained story line/plot should come before nostalgia and wanting to show/include as much stuff from the original in part 1. But again, that's my opinion and you're free to disagree ^^

Keep in mind that this is purely the rational and logical side of me talking. My emotional side wants more than just Midgar in part 1 (the more the bettter). But my personal feelings do not make for a great game, so I bench them when discussing such things.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
So essentially finding Cloud, Corel, Fort Condor (this would work better I think if Tifa leads and they find Cloud after dealing with the huge materia stuff in those areas first)

Just as a random aside, I always thought it would have made more sense to have the party split and raid both Huge Materia sites simultaneously. After all, why wouldn't Shinra go for both at the same time? Barret leads the Corel raid of course for the conclusion of that arc, and maybe Cid has to go with him for operating the train. And the other three go to Fort Condor.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Also, creating all the locations for my suggested part 2 can be doable, as long as they don't go the open world route. That way, they can cheat a little and only show the parts we actually need to go through and not the whole planet (if this makes any sense). Part 2 lends itself to a mostly linear game progression, which isn't as taxing as a seamless open world (see FFXV's problems).

Filling out the Midgar game with a big, mostly original Act 2 with sidequests and backstory for the individual AVALANCHE members then doing a bare essentials version of everything else is not what I want from the Remake.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
Just as a random aside, I always thought it would have made more sense to have the party split and raid both Huge Materia sites simultaneously. After all, why wouldn't Shinra go for both at the same time? Barret leads the Corel raid of course for the conclusion of that arc, and maybe Cid has to go with him for operating the train. And the other three go to Fort Condor.
That sounds like a great Idea. Kind of like the numerous team split-ups in FFVI, or the one in FFVIII where you choose who to bring to Balamb and who to send to the rocket launch site. Take note Square Enix, if you read this (probably not).

Filling out the Midgar game with a big, mostly original Act 2 with sidequests and backstory for the individual AVALANCHE members then doing a bare essentials version of everything else is not what I want from the Remake.
It doesn't have to be this extreme. As far as I can tell, the Midgar section and everything after acquiring the Highwind is somewhat rushed in the original game, compared to the chase for Sephiroth (from Kalm to the Northern Crater). So fleshing out those 2 areas wouldn't diminish "part 2", which will most likely still receive some additional content.

I'm still confident enough that they'll give each part about the same treatment, resulting in (presumably) 3 comparably equal parts in terms of content. The problem is, SE only ever talked about the Midgar segment so far, so we have no idea how they'll handle the other parts.
 

Vyzzuvazzadth

Yazzavedth Zayann
Also, creating all the locations for my suggested part 2 can be doable, as long as they don't go the open world route. That way, they can cheat a little and only show the parts we actually need to go through and not the whole planet (if this makes any sense). Part 2 lends itself to a mostly linear game progression, which isn't as taxing as a seamless open world (see FFXV's problems).

Filling out the Midgar game with a big, mostly original Act 2 with sidequests and backstory for the individual AVALANCHE members then doing a bare essentials version of everything else is not what I want from the Remake.
Fleshing out "act 2" doesn't prevent expansion of "act 1" or "act 3". Also, what DO you want from the remake? Shot for shot in modern graphics? I personally wish for more than that, which is why I prefer additional backstories and activities over a direct remake.

What confuses me, though, is the quote you used. There, I'm talking about part 2 being manageable if they go a more linear route instead of full-planet open world and you answer with something about act 2 of part 1. Not that something's wrong with your answer or sentiment. I just don't get the connection between the quoted passage and your reply :/

Also sorry for the late reply. My initial post got somehow stuck in review limbo or something like that.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Also, creating all the locations for my suggested part 2 can be doable, as long as they don't go the open world route. That way, they can cheat a little and only show the parts we actually need to go through and not the whole planet (if this makes any sense). Part 2 lends itself to a mostly linear game progression, which isn't as taxing as a seamless open world (see FFXV's problems).

Filling out the Midgar game with a big, mostly original Act 2 with sidequests and backstory for the individual AVALANCHE members then doing a bare essentials version of everything else is not what I want from the Remake.
Fleshing out "act 2" doesn't prevent expansion of "act 1" or "act 3". Also, what DO you want from the remake? Shot for shot in modern graphics? I personally wish for more than that, which is why I prefer additional backstories and activities over a direct remake.

What confuses me, though, is the quote you used. There, I'm talking about part 2 being manageable if they go a more linear route instead of full-planet open world and you answer with something about act 2 of part 1. Not that something's wrong with your answer or sentiment. I just don't get the connection between the quoted passage and your reply :/

Also sorry for the late reply. My initial post got somehow stuck in review limbo or something like that.

As you say in your video, Act 2 is by far the longest act. The Bombing Mission is Act 1, the assault on Shinra Tower Act 3, to make Act 2 work it needs a LOT of original material to work. Which is good, but I would like that to then be followed with similiar introduction of new material in the rest of the remake. Your structure only translates for there being a need for this in Act 2 of Part 1.

The Kalm flashback, the whole trek from Junon all the way to the Forgotten City and then Act 3 being everything after Aerith's certainly doesn't need further material to be an comparatively enormous game to the other 2 installments. We'd get at most a straight adaptation, if not less. That would be a disappointment to me.
 
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