SPOILERS How Strong is Remake Cloud?

[Lord Noctis]

Obviously Cloud is pretty strong, strong enough to pass as the SOLDIER he claims to be as evidenced by his ability to defeat opponents like Roche and Reno. But at the same time we also know he's not nearly as strong as he'll get later on, as evidenced by how easily Sephiroth was able to beat him 1v1.

So my question is where does everyone think Cloud stands right now? Could he handle your average First, or even someone a cut above that such as Zack, or is he closer to a more middle of the road SOLDIER guy like a strong 2nd?

For the sake of clarity I think start of Remake Cloud is about the same as Zack at the start of CC, and by the end of Remake I have Cloud pegged as being about the same as Zack when he was initially promoted to 1st.

Bonus question: How much of a difference in strength/ability do you think there is between your average 3rd, 2nd and 1st class SOLDIER members?

 

[Erotic Materia]

I mean, he beat Sephiroth 1v1 a long time ago (while he had a sword in his torso, no less), so... yeah, I don't know how to answer this.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

When Cloud shows his true strength you know a storm is approaching, so when you see there's squall you'd be better running like the high wind or else you risk being hit by some lightning only to be reduced to ashes under the snow. So yes, he is still underskilled but very capable.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I mean, he beat Sephiroth 1v1 a long time ago (while he had a sword in his torso, no less), so... yeah, I don't know how to answer this.

True, but that's not really a good indicator of his strength back then. He was only able to pull that off due to a sneak attack previously. In a straight duel that version of Cloud would never stand a chance against Sephiroth

 

[Wol]

Hard to gauge, if he needs +9000 anime power to make a scene look cool they will do it, despite him not being able to cut shit in half during the entire fucking game.

I wish Materia was actually used as justification to those exaggerated power boosts.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud is still "growing," given what we see him do here and what he's able to do in Advent Children.

But he comes close to that a few times.

As said in the OG and other materials, he's as strong as a SOLDIER 1st Class. That's even in relation to Zack. And he clearly goes beyond even that. He's got limits but he can push them depending on the situation. Cloud's sword play is still developing, since he has no Omnislash or ability to wield two swords at one time. But in the end, it's still incredible.

He's got the power of a SOLDIER 1st Class. And that's just at the beginning.

 

[Odysseus]

I was thinking he must be weaker than a 1st because he struggles with Reno and Roche, but then I remembered it's a video game and that if you actually know what you're doing you can wipe the floor with them. I guess I'd say he's about as strong as Zack, at least.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Cloud is still "growing," given what we see him do here and what he's able to do in Advent Children.

But he comes close to that a few times.

As said in the OG and other materials, he's as strong as a SOLDIER 1st Class. That's even in relation to Zack. And he clearly goes beyond even that. He's got limits but he can push them depending on the situation. Cloud's sword play is still developing, since he has no Omnislash or ability to wield two swords at one time. But in the end, it's still incredible.

He's got the power of a SOLDIER 1st Class. And that's just at the beginning.

I don't know if I'd say Cloud is that strong at the start of remake. I mean yeah, by the end I could definitely see him matching well against most 1sts, but at the start of the game he's just gotten done with a five year stint of floating in a tube/ being dragged around by Zack, so I feel even though the raw talent is there I don't think he's really making full use of it until later on once he's gotten a chance to shake off the rust, do to speak. Like, if an average 1st intercepted Cloud during the bombing mission or it's immediate aftermath I'm not confident he'd be able to handle that situation

 

[Odysseus]

I should specify I meant beginning of crisis core Zack. Maybe middle.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova cells, son.

Like yeah. He struggles some at the start, but his body adapts incredibly quickly. In Chapter 4 he pulls Advent Children biker bullshit to shut down Rosch after their skirmish takes too long, for example. He might get hurt but his body will rise to the challenge.

It's only a few days and his capabilities jump a ridiculous level. He grows fast even despite what his physical body as been through just a month or so prior.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I was thinking he must be weaker than a 1st because he struggles with Reno and Roche, but then I remembered it's a video game and that if you actually know what you're doing you can wipe the floor with them. I guess I'd say he's about as strong as Zack, at least.

He does seem to have some trouble with Roche in cutscenes as well. On the bikes he was having a hard time trying to both drive and fight, and was only able to handle him decisively once he had Jessie take over the steering.

Also he seemed at least briefly caught off guard by Roche's speed in the rematch, though he still handled him without any noteworthy setbacks, and iirc Roche is supposed to have an unusual degree of strength for a 3rd, so overall that speaks well for Cloud's abilities

That being said, I don't think he's on Zack's level even by the end of remake. Once Sephiroth attacks seriously during the 1v1 he disarms Cloud in one move.

In CC when Sephiroth starts going after Zack seriously, Zack was still able to hang in there for a few moves before being overwhelmed, so I'd say Zack still has an edge over this version of Cloud.

Edit: just saw your clarification, and yeah, I'd say that's a reasonable assumption

 

[Lord Noctis]

Jenova cells, son.

Like yeah. He struggles some at the start, but his body adapts incredibly quickly. In Chapter 4 he pulls Advent Children biker bullshit to shut down Rosch after their skirmish takes too long, for example. He might get hurt but his body will rise to the challenge.

It's only a few days and his capabilities jump a ridiculous level. He grows fast even despite what his physical body as been through just a month or so prior.

Of for sure, Cloud builds his strength pretty quickly once he gets rolling, but at the very start he should still be, well not weak, but less strong I suppose. Zack commented on how he felt weaker when he first escaped, so we know atrophy can set in to some degree regardless of mako or Jenova cells.

I suppose another question is at what point in the game does Cloud reach the point where he's fighting like a 1st? When he beats Roche is probably the earliest point, but even that feels a bit early.

I remember a point in CC where a Genesis copy drops two 2nds in one shot only to immediately be taken down by Zack, so there's clearly a very wide gap between most SOLDIER members and a 1st, and it didn't seem like Cloud was that far ahead of Roche

 

[KindOfBlue]

Jenova cells, son.

A Weapon to surpass Sephiroth

 

[Makoeyes987]

I suppose another question is at what point in the game does Cloud reach the point where he's fighting like a 1st? When he beats Roche is probably the earliest point, but even that feels a bit early.

When he pulls Advent Children fuckery.

Busting up Roche's bike while driving for instance. Roche gets wrecked by Cloud. He doesn't even see him as a real threat. Just someone worth playing with to get him out of his hair. SOLDIER 3-Cs aren't a big deal.

Oh, and all of Chapter 18

Cutting through trains and skyscrapers is definitely 1st Class SOLDIER behavior.

 

[Lord Noctis]

When he pulls Advent Children fuckery.

Busting up Roche's bike while driving for instance.

All of Chapter 18

Cutting through trains and skyscrapers is 1st Class SOLDIER behavior.

I still feel that the Roche fight is a bit early for Cloud to have 1st class abilities. Roche was doing some pretty crazy stuff to, so I just kinda assume that that sort of over the top fuckery is just a thing that SOLDIER members in general can do.

But yeah, Cloud should probably at or around a 1st class level by the time the party reaches the Shinra building

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not saying Cloud is at 1-C level through the whole fight.

But when he tells Jessie to hold on and gives us a call back to the Motorcycle battle on the Midgar Highway against Loz and Yazoo where disables the bike, and just hops right back to his own like it's no thing?

That's incredible.

No SOLDIER 3-C can pull a stunt like that. The SOLDIER 3-Cs you fight on the highway in Chapter 18 do some cute magic and sword combos while driving, but they don't hop off their bikes, duel with you on your own bike, hop back on their bike and repeat.

That's something I'd presume someone who's a SOLDIER 1-C could pull off if they have the skills.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I'm not saying Cloud is at 1-C level through the whole fight.

But when he tells Jessie to hold on and gives us a call back to the Motorcycle battle on the Midgar Highway against Loz and Yazoo where disables the bike, and just hops right back to his own like it's no thing?

That's incredible.

No SOLDIER 3-C can pull a stunt like that. The SOLDIER 3-Cs you fight on the highway in Chapter 18 do some cute magic and sword combos while driving, but they don't hop off their bikes, duel with you on your own bike, hop back on their bike and repeat.

That's something I'd presume someone who's a SOLDIER 1-C could pull off if they have the skills.

So, in the example of the Roche fight we'd say Cloud isn't quite 1-c level yet, but is close enough to emulate that sort of ability momentarily?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So, in the example of the Roche fight we'd say Cloud isn't quite 1-c level yet, but is close enough to emulate that sort of ability momentarily?

Exactly.

Throughout the Remake his ability rises more and more until he's at the point he pulls off incredible superhuman abilities on the fly against Sephiroth in Chapter 18.

However, it's still not enough.

The final showdown of the Remake gives a nice indicator of where Cloud is in terms of his strength. We know in their true final showdown, Cloud manages to beat Sephiroth, ending the fight with Omnislash within the Lifestream.

In this precursor to that fight, Cloud can't even touch Sephiroth. Sephiroth just smiles and disarms Cloud in a flash once he's seen enough of his tricks.

So clearly there are still heights for Cloud to soar to.

 

[Lord Noctis]

So Mako, if you had to guess, how would you say the different classes of SOLDIER compare to one another? Obviously 1sts are just kinda their own thing, but what about 3rds compared against 2nds?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think they will be as strong as the scenes they're in requires

Like, functionally I don't think there's going to be that much different between 3-Cs and 2-Cs. They'll just be mooks Cloud and the others will be able to beat up fighting. Just like Tifa, Barret, and Aerith can seemingly manage to pass the 3-C combat simulator exams in the Shinra Building.

The real challenges will be 1-C. They'll be a cut above the rest.

However, even they won't be like, the best of the best. I don't expect they'll be like Angeal, or Genesis. They're mooks. They'll be strong and the best. But they won't be exemplary.

Now Restrictors? Weiss?

That'll be interesting to see. Those are the SOLDIERs who are actual SSS level fighters that are significantly dangerous.

Weiss is an optional super boss. With his shirt on.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Weiss is actually the reason I started thinking about this stuff. I remember the interview making a deal about this being the first time we'll see Cloud fight Weiss, and I'm just all like "Is Cloud even strong enough to fight him yet?"

Like in DoC even Rosso could at least survive against Cloud in his prime, and Weiss is demonstrably much stronger than she is

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nomura sure as fuck thinks Cloud is so

I imagine the fight being extremely difficult and worthy of being an optional boss fight. Weiss isn't Sephiroth, but I'd say there's a very real reason Shinra keeps his ass chained to a chair when he's not on duty.

Rosso and Cloud clashed once. I don't even consider that a fight. And if Vincent drove Rosso to commit suicide after their battle, the existential crisis a real fight with Cloud would inflict on her would probably drive Rosso to self-decapitation, mid-battle.

The only Tsviets that matter are Weiss and Nero, in reference to the heroes.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I mean, losing to Vincent isn't exact a sign of weakness. Dude is probably the most powerful dude on the team aside from Cloud himself.

As a general rule I assume any member of the tsviets could casually murder any 3rd or 2nd. A 1-c SOLDIER could probably put up a fight, but still eventually be overpowered. You'd probably need someone around Zack's level before you could start taking down tsviets in 1v1 combat

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not a "sign of weakness" but Rosso never fought Cloud. She never felt someone like Cloud beat her ass with a blade. Rosso thinks people who aren't from Deepground are scrubs off the street, and the revelation of fighters stronger than her existing in the world outside of Deepground, crushed her self esteem. Completely.

The lesson is, don't confuse "crazy" with "strength." Even Restrictor, without pulling his brain chip control BS, beat up Rosso and placed a boot on her head. Cloud and Rosso are not the same. She can bully normal types but she couldn't handle a competent fighter with mako bullshit like her.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Fair enough, but even still the fact that Rosso walked away from attacking Cloud at all suggests she should at least be comparable to a 1-c SOLDIER. I doubt the man would just let her walk after she fucked up his bike.

Meanwhile Weiss can womp Rosso and Azul at the same time, and Azul was strong enough that Chaos came out to administer the (very awesome) killing blow to that particular gentleman