I think I figured out why I don't really like Sephiroth.

[Cat Rage Room]

I guess it's a misnomer to say I dislike Sephiroth, but in 1997 he was cool for a while then, and yeah he still has a certain 'cool' factor now, but in general? Eh. It's not for the more popular reasons either; not 'he's too generic' or 'too derivative' or whatever, so why?

Because nothing changes about the guy. He has stayed the same pretty much forever, not only in his personal fictional timeline, but real life as well; an insanely powerful warrior/swordsman that nobody can beat but Cloud. He has always been that. From Crisis Core to Advent Children. From 1997 to 2012.

Think about the evolution that other FF villains go through; the player watched as Kefka went from someone who ran away from being pummeled by Sabin to a living God who ruled over a force of nature. Vayne from FFXII plotted and worked from becoming simply a powerful political figure to being an intermediate of the gods and the harbinger of a new age. It's not even stuff that the player always sees either; it's implied that Ultimecia started her life as a persecuted, afraid individual who got pushed to the brink, FFIV (at least the remakes) tell us that Golbez was once an excited, but impressionable little boy.

But Sephiroth never really got that kind of growth or contrast either. The only mention of his past was "as a kid he knew he was different". Narrative wise he was always the cocky warrior with no equal and little worries. Within the narrative of FFVII he simply goes from being already really powerful to...even more powerful. His upgrade to near god in FFVII doesn't really have as much 'oomph' because for what it's worth he was already utterly unbeatable by everyone as it is. Kefka and Kuja's transformation into their uber selves had more impact because there was a sense of "Shit, we should have gotten him while we had the chance what have we done"

I do give Crisis Core some credit for trying to give Sephiroth some depth by showing him while he was still human; I can appreciate that, but it never quite erases, at least for me, the impression that SE was so comfortable with their creation they were too lazy to give him any malleability.

 

[Tennyo]

I think it kind of works for Sephiroth to be this way, though. Not every story can develop the same way. Every super-uber-powerful villain has to have a touching story where they were weaker?

All in all FFVII never seemed like it was about that. Sephiroth was already dead, already in the Lifestream, already rebuilding his body, etc. It was all about Cloud himself overcoming the serious mindfuck that Sephiroth was giving him. How Cloud grows to become strong enough to face him. It fits with how that final fight is more in Cloud's head rather than the physical world.

That being said, I don't like nor dislike Sephiroth. I've never really had an opinion on him, really. Seeing him before he went crazy in Crisis Core did make him a tad more interesting for me.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think it kind of works for Sephiroth to be this way, though. Not every story can develop the same way. Every super-uber-powerful villain has to have a touching story where they were weaker?

Does it? I'm not really talking about a touching story, though, it doesn't have to be touching, nor even a story. It's all about contrast, and other FF's use it quite awesomely. Take ExDeath for example. From the moment he's introduced, he's given as insanely powerful, it took four legendary heroes just to seal the guy. He promptly trounces your heroes every time he encounters them. Constantly foils their plans. Sounds like Sephiroth, yeah?

Then something changes in the story midway. He soundly defeats the heroes again, but this time Galuf goes 'fuck that shit' and holds his own against the ethereal mage in a fight one on one. It costs him his life, yeah, but ExDeath retreats. It's a double whammy because not only does the player know that he's vulnerable and can be harmed, even beaten, but also it comes with the loss of a comrade. Who went out like a fucking pimp.

Then later on the heroes face him in his castle, both the heroes and the player knows "Yeah, I got this." They win! But later on in the game he comes back with a vengeance, and by the time the final battle rolls around and ExDeath's final form is, well, pretty fucking cool for an old SNES game, the player (and I'm sure Bartz and friends) goes "Damn...can we do this?"

That's thematic contrast, suspense, and progression. Does Sephiroth ever offer any of that? Even Safer Sephiroth, as cool as he was, didn't invoke that same feeling, because fuck, it's not like we could have beaten him before, anyway!

 

[ForceStealer]

I agree with Tennyo, it's a different kind of villain. And one that I like just as well.

I've said it before, for all the fan arguments about Kefka and Sephiroth, they could not be more different as villains. Sephiroth is a threat that looms over you that ENTIRE game. Kefka doesn't do that, as he's only powerful for the last third. At no point was I ever AFRAID of Kefka. I thought he was despicable and I hated him, but he was still that goofy-ass clown with sand on his boots. Sephiroth you live in fear of the whole game.

I don't think either villain is better than the other, they are very different.

(and as for the Exdeath comparison, Cloud killed Sephiroth before at the cost of his life. Hojo just saved him.)

 

[Cat Rage Room]

All in all FFVII never seemed like it was about that. Sephiroth was already dead, already in the Lifestream, already rebuilding his body, etc. It was all about Cloud himself overcoming the serious mindfuck that Sephiroth was giving him. How Cloud grows to become strong enough to face him. It fits with how that final fight is more in Cloud's head rather than the physical world.

I agree with Tennyo, it's a different kind of villain. And one that I like just as well.

I've said it before, for all the fan arguments about Kefka and Sephiroth, they could not be more different as villains. Sephiroth is a threat that looms over you that ENTIRE game. Kefka doesn't do that.

The thing is, Sephiroth never struck me as that kind of villain, nor a 'different' kind of villain! I agree that one of FFVII's main themes is Cloud overcoming the big mindfuck that Sephiroth is inflicting on him. But Square, and later SE never really seemed to capitalize Sephiroth as a 'physical', 'uberpowerful' villain rather than a subtle one who works in your head. Sephiroth's immense power has always been showcased, from the impaled Midgar Golem to Seph vs. Genesis.

If anything, the 'Cloud/Sephiroth' dynamic was severely dampened after Advent Children, if not the original game. By then we know that Cloud is over Sephiroth's brainfucks and will always beat him. We know this. It's predictable. Hell, even in Dissidia when WoL beats him Sephiroth goes "WELL OK OK YOU TECHNICALLY BEAT ME BUT CLOUD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN REALLY BEAT ME WELL SEE YA"

I mean seriously?

Also, this isn't a Sephiroth/Kefka argument. For arguments sake, this is Sephiroth vs. well, any RPG antagonist. Doesn't even have to be Final Fantasy.

 

[Ite]

Comparing Kefka and Sephiroth is like comparing Saruman and Sauron.

Different story, different flavour. The exploits of Rufus and Shinra Inc. are what drive the plot forward, which is why you constantly see scenes with them throughout the story. Sephiroth is an entity, a presence, but he was never meant to carry the story. He was the Emperor, not Vader. That's kind of ironic, but FFVII loves establishing cliches and then twisting them just a smidge.

The problem with the sequels is that they shouldered all this screentime on someone who is only an effective villain when he's not around. One of the many reasons that the sequels dropped the fucking ball.

 

[Tennyo]

Well if you're bringing in Dissidia and AC then yeah. But I wasn't really counting anything other than the original game.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Comparing Kefka and Sephiroth is like comparing Saruman and Sauron.

Different story, different flavour. The exploits of Rufus and Shinra Inc. are what drive the plot forward, which is why you constantly see scenes with them throughout the story. Sephiroth is an entity, a presence, but he was never meant to carry the story. He was the Emperor, not Vader. That's kind of ironic, but FFVII loves establishing cliches and then twisting them just a smidge.

The problem with the sequels is that they shouldered all this screentime on someone who is only an effective villain when he's not around. One of the many reasons that the sequels dropped the fucking ball.

Definetely agree with this, escept for the last bit. As far as sequels go Sephiroth really doesn't have much screen time. Like, 10 minutes worth tops. Unless you're including Dissidia as well?

@Thread: I for one like the way Sephiroth has always been shown to be really strong. Having a villian pose little threat to start with but gaining more power later is an effective way to do things. But its not the only way.

The player spends the entire game knowing that Sephiroth is incredibly powerful. Everything from Cloud's flashbacks to the Midgar Zolom and the various slaughters the guy goes on along with the various times he gives the party samples of his power all tell us what we need to know. This guy is icnredibly strong and a huge threat, and is most likely way beyond our abilities.

The best part of it though, is the game never shows you all of Sephiroth's power. We get samples of it. An illusion here, a dead Zolom there, watching the party get swatted aside on the cargo ship.

Thus he feels like a threat, you're worried about facing him. Worried about what might happen. A fear which only increases after Aerith's death. After all, if she can die so can the others. Couple that with his ability to control and mindfuck Cloud and suddenly the following meetings with Sephiroth are tense and suspenseful, leaving you wodnering what will happen.

Of course we know Sephiroth can be beat, we see it happen in the past. But what about now? All of that built up to a good final battle. One where you knew the enemy could be beaten, but weren't sure if you were strong enough to pull it off.

Aside from that Ite already covered my thoughts on Sephiroth's presence in the story.

 

[looneymoon]

I have always maintained that Sephiroth works well as an antagonist, as well as a foil to Cloud, but really sucks as an independant character.

Never understood the love.

 

[Celes Chere]

you know I typically love 'crazy' characters because there is usually this really awesome reason as to why they snap. For Sephiroth it was like... "OMG IM A MONSTER MUST KILL THINGS AND ALL THE FRIENDS I HAVE MEAN NOTHING JUST BECAUSE OF THIS ONE INSTANCE"
it actually goes to show just how weak Sephiroth's character is. I like when villians have gone insane for a good reason whether it be heart breaking, or otherwise.

I kinda just thought of this with my friend as she asked why I like crazy characters so much. And then I was just kinda like well, shit... I really do love the crazies. ;A;

What Crisis Core did a good job at was showing that Sephiroth had a sensitive side, he was a good and honorable guy. I loved that, I actually would love Sephiroth if he had remained to be that type of character. I just... wish they had gone into greater depth with his character. They really could have created so much more. Adding Genesis in to be an influental dick does not really count for much. =/

Also @ Tenny I don't necessarily think they NEED to have a heart breaking story, but there should be SOME spine to their character, you know? Sephiroth is kind of like a jellyfish in that regard.

it's a different kind of villain.

I disagree with this. There's a difference between 'different' and 'poor writing'. xD Anyone can just make a character that's evil just because he can be, but it takes true talent to make an evil character to the core actually appear to be really fucking badass. Sephiroth didn't fit that at all, imo.

 

[Sylvie]

I have always really loved Sephiroth. The way he led on the fucking stupid and overzealous main characters of the game was hilarious. Especially when he stopped at Gold Saucer to chit-chat with Dio like it was nothing. Then Dio tells Cloud about how he must have lots of fans who are boys his age.

I also really liked how he was bathing in the mana pool like a spa in the Temple of the Ancients.

His tortured but sly mental lapse reflects my favorite kind of villain. He even transforms into a woman to dick with the protagonists.

He deserved everything he attained in the story. He was smarter and better. There's not really a good reason why he didn't succeed in becoming a God.

 

[looneymoon]

I thought his whole reason for snapping seemed really... idk, underdeveloped and lame. He's supposed to be this Frankenstein monster type character but it just falls really flat. I blame it on poor development, lack of introspection on the character, whatever.

In fact, thinking of him as being sadistic from the onset makes him a whole lot more interesting imo. Crisis Core shat all over that though.

 

[Ghost X]

I always liked Sephiroth as a villain. I don't take issue with his story etc (ignoring the compilation). Even if it may seem under-developed, its believable.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I always liked Sephiroth as a villain. I don't take issue with his story etc (ignoring the compilation). Even if it may seem under-developed, its believable.

This.

Sephiroth is a bit underdeveloped in terms of his Start of darkness. Luckily theres more to him than simply his origins. His dynamic with Cloud, his perssonality, appearance, and just the way the story handles him even when he's not on screen elevate him far above the average villian IMO.

I will add that I appreciated Crisis Core's efforts to flesh out Sephiroth's descent into madness, but I wish they would have done it without putting Genesis in Nibelheim.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I will add that I appreciated Crisis Core's efforts to flesh out Sephiroth's descent into madness, but I wish they would have done it without putting Genesis in Nibelheim.

definitely agree with that.

Even Safer Sephiroth, as cool as he was, didn't invoke that same feeling, because fuck, it's not like we could have beaten him before, anyway!

Safer Sephiroth don't invoke that feeling 'cause OWA do it for him

 

[Octo]

I don't even think Sephiroth was mad, at first when he finds out about Jenova he does this sort of 'oh noes was I created this way bawwww?!' for about 5 seconds and then its clear that he doesn't really give a shit about that because 'yays I can take over the world'

Which is weird, because he probably could have done that anyway being the most powerful Soldier that there is.

So I dunno, I'm kind of lead to believe that he was an egotistical jerk already but for some reason had kept a lid on things, thats the real mystery to me, why he even bothered following Shinra's orders in the first place. And yes, there is that argument that relates to controling elephants with flimsy rope - that if you restrain them at a young enough age they never think that they have the power to break their restraints, but there isn't even any evidence of that happening with Sephiroth.

TLDR: I dunno.

 

[Shademp]

Which is weird, because he probably could have done that anyway being the most powerful Soldier that there is.

The first scene in the reactor in Mt. Nibel drives home that his humanity is important to him. Otherwise he would not become so distressed over figuring out/realising/learning the truth.

When his humanity is lost to him, all constraints are broken. Now, it's a different question why his human side was so important and I don't think the games ever explored this. Was he obsessed with trying to not feel different? The writers/event planners probably did not think this through.

EDIT: Sephiroth is indeed a character whom we do not see explored very much. Because this is how he has been from the start, I think it fits best that he does not receive a detailed background. Stuff such as his early youth, how he acquired the Masamune, his sexual orientation etc are better left to fanfiction rather than canon, in my opinion.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

you know, sephiroth never seemed very bright to me. i mean, he thinks his mom is jenova, right, but he flips the hell out when he finds out that jenova is some evil world-destroying space alien. i honestly can't imagine hojo being like 'oh yeah jenova's some bitch i knocked up once lolol' and sephiroth does seem to know hojo is his dad so it seems like sephiroth just up and saw jenova in his dad's files once and was then like sO THATS MY MOM'S NAME HA HA

whereas i think if he just asked who jenova was, i doubt hojo would lie to him. idk, sephiroth's whole breakdown seemed ridiculously contrived. like if he found a fly in his soup, we'd get the same reaction from him. a big, awful, timebomb of a person

who is still one of the least interesting villains i have ever encountered

not sure where i was going with this

 

[Unlucky]

I always liked to think that Sephiroth's sudden realization of wanting to be god is him being human (yeah, the irony). It's like when you finally learn something about yourself and you didn't like it, so you try your best to make some sense out of it and turn it into something you can feel good about. Couple that with his knowledge that he can most likely pull it off because he's the most powerful-- so yeah, he gave into that because he's (partly) human. Or at least that's what I like to think.

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

sorry sansa, but i've to disagree with you.
Sephiroth doesn't know that hojo is his father and i think that Hojo would lie him. but yes, Sephiroth is a timebomb.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

sorry sansa, but i've to disagree with you.
Sephiroth doesn't know that hojo is his father and i think that Hojo would lie him. but yes, Sephiroth is a timebomb.

wasn't that sort of implied by him laughing when they asked about his dad somewhere in the vicinity of him saying hojo is a stupid quack?

i don't think hojo would lie because he's an egoist, simply put, and he'd want sephiroth to know all the really awful horseshit he does

 

[Captain Jack Harkness]

before the battle with Hojo in OC, Hojo says that Sephiroth doesn't know

 

[Octo]

Hojo does say Sephiroth doesn't know, but at the same time it is implied that he does kind of know by they way he laughs dismissively when asked about his father. I think Sephiroth definitely had an inkling about Hojo even if he never knew 100%.

 

[Shademp]

I think Sephiroth definitely had an inkling about Hojo even if he never knew 100%.

An inkling that he would have denied to himself anyway because he detested Hojo so much.

 

[Octo]

An inkling that he would have denied to himself anyway because he detested Hojo so much.

Just like Luke Skywalker