I understand Jenova/Sephiroth are a bigger threat, however...

Daikini-San

Currently in another Dimension
AKA
Iku-Ne
#1
Watching the 23rd Anniversary Trailer and hearing Aerith/Aeris mention something along the lines of Shinra aren't the real threat has got me thinking. From her standpoint, I understand why she feels Jenova/Sephiroth are a bigger threat than Shinra, but Shinra is and has always been the bigger threat. They are the catalysis behind so much evil. They destroyed Sephiroth's life, Cloud's life, countless innocent people in Midgar, the soldiers, everything. They hired a Scientist who misidentified an extraterrestrial as something it wasn't, but instead of scrapping the research/project, they exploit this being to create their own soldiers. All because of greed, money, etc. Shinra are the evil ones. They are the ones who created this monstrosity in the first place.
 

Ite

(they/them)
AKA
Ite
#4
I disagree! Without Jenova or Sephiroth, mako consumption by humans would only accelerate as populations increased, until the land cracked and withered and the Planet became uninhabitable. They’re not the only threat, of course, but fixing the Jenova/Sephiroth problem doesn’t actually save the world.

Super rude of Aeris to say all that, presumably after everyone’s friends were just brutally crushed. But I guess it didn’t kill anyone *she* loved so she can ride that high chocobo to the real threat. Yuh-huh.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
#5
But that's like companies being companies. Sephiroth is the sociopathic muderer that's going to destroys this and every planet in the galaxy.

It's kind of funny if you think about real life, because it would be so similar. I dont know if that was the developer's original intent but it's certainly realistic.
 

Daikini-San

Currently in another Dimension
AKA
Iku-Ne
#6
I disagree! Without Jenova or Sephiroth, mako consumption by humans would only accelerate as populations increased, until the land cracked and withered and the Planet became uninhabitable. They’re not the only threat, of course, but fixing the Jenova/Sephiroth problem doesn’t actually save the world.

Super rude of Aeris to say all that, presumably after everyone’s friends were just brutally crushed. But I guess it didn’t kill anyone *she* loved so she can ride that high chocobo to the real threat. Yuh-huh.

I understand that both threats must be limited before the planet becomes safe, but like you said even if Sephiroth/Jenova wasn't a thing, Shinra would still be doing their evil deeds which in turn destroy the planet. I'm wondering if what Aerith/Aeris said was mistranslated or something. Maybe if she said something along the lines of Jenova/Sephiroth are her first priority to stop. What's interesting is that in the original game, Shinra saw Jenova/Sephiroth as a threat and were trying to stop him. The biggest threat trying to stop a threat they created.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#8
I disagree! Without Jenova or Sephiroth, mako consumption by humans would only accelerate as populations increased, until the land cracked and withered and the Planet became uninhabitable. They’re not the only threat, of course, but fixing the Jenova/Sephiroth problem doesn’t actually save the world.

Super rude of Aeris to say all that, presumably after everyone’s friends were just brutally crushed. But I guess it didn’t kill anyone *she* loved so she can ride that high chocobo to the real threat. Yuh-huh.
Under the same thinking, without Shin-Ra, mako consumption would be more under control and used much less.
 

Sephira

That Silver-haired Lady
AKA
Sephiravania
#9
To me, Shin-Ra is more dangerous. I mean, Jenova was dormant/inactive for two millennia until Shin-Ra came into the picture and screwed up by using its genes (and I refer to Jenova as "it" because it doesn't have a specified gender) to create supersoldiers, namely Sephiroth, if we don't want to touch the Genesis/Angeal topic. On top of that, we have them extracting Mako from the planet at an alarming rate and don't giving an eff if it dies or not... and, besides, if the remaining Cetra were able to kick Jenova's butt and seal it in the Northern Crater, it could be done again in case it became active. So, between an alien that can be defeated and a company that will kill the planet without any remorse, I think the second is worse.

Shin-Ra is a threat that messed up with another threat and created a third threat.
 

Smoothie King

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pat
#10
They're both motivated by selfish ends and both are an existential threat to the survival of the planet. The game lore states explicitly that Sephiroth/Jenova are more dangerous. They have the capability to annihilate the world in one fell swoop whereas Shinra slowly withers the planet away over a long period of time. Both are horrible but I feel that the malevolence towards humanity that Sephiroth and Jenova possess are worse than the indifference of Shinra, which is purely motivated by greed. That's one of the great things about Final Fantasy VII, that the party is really stuck between two massive super powers which both threaten the life of the planet. It also makes the unlikely companion angle late in the game between Avalanche and Shinra more compelling. They both need to risk their lives to stop Sephiroth's plan, but are motivated by wildly disparate ends. The game really is more nuanced and deep than I think people give it credit for.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#11
To me, Shin-Ra is more dangerous. I mean, Jenova was dormant/inactive for two millennia until Shin-Ra came into the picture and screwed up by using its genes (and I refer to Jenova as "it" because it doesn't have a specified gender) to create supersoldiers, namely Sephiroth, if we don't want to touch the Genesis/Angeal topic. On top of that, we have them extracting Mako from the planet at an alarming rate and don't giving an eff if it dies or not... and, besides, if the remaining Cetra were able to kick Jenova's butt and seal it in the Northern Crater, it could be done again in case it became active. So, between an alien that can be defeated and a company that will kill the planet without any remorse, I think the second is worse.

Shin-Ra is a threat that messed up with another threat and created a third threat.
I'd still say Jenova/Sephiroth is the bigger threat though. They killed President Shinra. If not for Cloud and the party, the same would've happened for the rest of the company.
 

Ite

(they/them)
AKA
Ite
#12
Shinra represents the worst of humanity — the side of us that should be wiped out by Holy. If not Shinra, then it’ll be the next guy. To use the real world analogy, if we actually purged the world of all the big oil execs, they’d just be replaced. Jenova and Sephiroth and their big bad rock are certainly more dramatic and attention grabbing, but Shinra’s doing the same thing — breaking the balance of nature and consuming the life-giving power of the planet for their own ends.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
#13
Shinra represents the worst of humanity — the side of us that should be wiped out by Holy. If not Shinra, then it’ll be the next guy. To use the real world analogy, if we actually purged the world of all the big oil execs, they’d just be replaced. Jenova and Sephiroth and their big bad rock are certainly more dramatic and attention grabbing, but Shinra’s doing the same thing — breaking the balance of nature and consuming the life-giving power of the planet for their own ends.
Yeah, but Shinra can't wipe out the planet in one fell swoop. They may be worse, but I wouldn't consider them the bigger threat
 

Ite

(they/them)
AKA
Ite
#15
And if humanity somehow found a way to spread their Mako-consuming civilization to other planets, how would that be any different? Think of the sum of humanity as you might think of the sum of Jenova cells — in the end, as one entity, and you start to see that we really aren’t that different. Manipulate, kill, consume, propagate, spread, conquer, sustain.
 
#17
Shinra represents the worst of humanity — the side of us that should be wiped out by Holy. If not Shinra, then it’ll be the next guy. To use the real world analogy, if we actually purged the world of all the big oil execs, they’d just be replaced. Jenova and Sephiroth and their big bad rock are certainly more dramatic and attention grabbing, but Shinra’s doing the same thing — breaking the balance of nature and consuming the life-giving power of the planet for their own ends.
So, Avalanche are like Noah? Or like the righteous men in the city of Sodom?
Is the only way forward for us all to live like the simple folk of Gongaga?
If Shinra ran on solar power, would they be morally more acceptable?
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#18
I would say Sephiroth and Jenova are the bigger threat, but Shinra and Hojo are the reason why they became as big of a threat as they are. I know that Jenova started things 2000 years ago by messing with the Cetras, but Shinra still didn't know when to leave well enough alone.
 

Saven

Pro Adventurer
#18
She was most likely saying that in the context that they should focus on Sephiroth instead of Shinra because he poses a more immediate threat.
 

S.L.Kerrigan

Pro Adventurer
AKA
molosev
#19
I haven't seen this last trailer.
In my opinion the Shinra was born from the weakness of humans who abandoned the simple, rustic but harmonious life they had for a sedentary life which was going to require more and more resources from the planet (for nothing in return). Shinra fed on this weakness. I think the real threat would rather be the weakness of humans. We can notice that humans start building a city again after the cataclysm (EDGE), they don't seem to have learned a single lesson. This would be a fairly coherent (hidden) message from the supposed last representative of the Cetra. I agree that the message that is supposed to be understood (at least for those who already know the game) is that the threat is Sephiroth / Jenova.
 
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Daikini-San

Currently in another Dimension
AKA
Iku-Ne
#20
They're both motivated by selfish ends and both are an existential threat to the survival of the planet. The game lore states explicitly that Sephiroth/Jenova are more dangerous. They have the capability to annihilate the world in one fell swoop whereas Shinra slowly withers the planet away over a long period of time. Both are horrible but I feel that the malevolence towards humanity that Sephiroth and Jenova possess are worse than the indifference of Shinra, which is purely motivated by greed. That's one of the great things about Final Fantasy VII, that the party is really stuck between two massive super powers which both threaten the life of the planet. It also makes the unlikely companion angle late in the game between Avalanche and Shinra more compelling. They both need to risk their lives to stop Sephiroth's plan, but are motivated by wildly disparate ends. The game really is more nuanced and deep than I think people give it credit for.
Everything you say is true, don't get me wrong, but who created the Jenova/Sephiroth threat that will destroy the planet in an instant if left alone? Shinra. Then let's say team destroyed Jenova/Sephiroth but Shinra is still left. What if Shinra creates yet another situation that reverberates the same level of threat like Jenova/Sephiroth? Greed is a terribly powerful thing. Also, this game really digs into some interesting subjects from varying perspectives. It's intellectually stimulating and I wish more people indulged in it. :)
 

Daikini-San

Currently in another Dimension
AKA
Iku-Ne
#21
I'd still say Jenova/Sephiroth is the bigger threat though. They killed President Shinra. If not for Cloud and the party, the same would've happened for the rest of the company.
Yes true, if left alone, Sephiroth would destroy Shinra. Honestly, it's like a punishment in my opinion. Not saying all of Shinra, but certainly the big wigs (Shinra, Hojo, etc.) were involved in playing God and using innocent people for human experimentation all for greed. So I find it (morbidly) funny that Sephiroth (something Shinra created) attempted to destroy Shinra for what they've done to them.
 
#22
But who also created superpowered Zack and Cloud?
Shinra.
Who taught Cid how to be a pilot and paid for his Highwind?
Shinra.
Who made Nibelheim prosperous enough that Mayor Lockheart could afford to hire Zangan to train his daughter in martial arts?
Shinra.
Everything you guys say about the danger posed by Shinra is spot on, but the OG is also at pains to point out that life for the majority is materially much better under Shinra. More comfortable. More pleasant. I don't mean by this that they're not the bad guys. It's just complicated.

edited to add "not" before 'bad guys", because a double negative = a positive.
 
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AKA
The Engineer
#23
I think it's Jenova/Sephrioth that are the main threat... and that's because I can easily see someone making Jenova a threat without a company like Shin-Ra getting involved. All you need is a bunch of normal archeologists/paleontologists to do a dig at the Northern Crater and bring back samples of Jenova to their lab and study it (for reals, not how Shin-Ra did). And there you have a ton of chances for Jenova to wake up, or grab someone, or take someone else's form, etc. You could probably get a decent investigative game out of figuring out why people are disappearing or dying or mutating and it all ends up tracing back to the lab where Jenova was studied... which in turn links back to the Northern Crater just in time for Jenova/Sephrioth to summon Black Meteor or start nomming on the Lifestream....

The thing with Shin-Ra that is complicated is that they are basically the reason soicety is at a 1st World level as opposed to a 2nd or even 3rd World level. Without Shin-Ra, the Quality of Living of... pretty much tanks. One of the big themes of Case of Shin-Ra is exactly how fast society does tank without Shin-Ra (or a Shin-Ra) like entity around. Which is... basically why Reeve ends up forming the WRO in DoC (backed by Rufus' $$). Going from lots of offical order to no order (technically) never works out well.

So on the one hand, yeah, the way/method Shin-Ra does stuff needs to be stopped. On the other hand, something is going to fill the void left by it after it gets destroyed... And even at the end of the game, Shin-Ra was the largest organization on the planet...
 
#25
Shinra represents the worst of humanity — the side of us that should be wiped out by Holy. If not Shinra, then it’ll be the next guy. To use the real world analogy, if we actually purged the world of all the big oil execs, they’d just be replaced. Jenova and Sephiroth and their big bad rock are certainly more dramatic and attention grabbing, but Shinra’s doing the same thing — breaking the balance of nature and consuming the life-giving power of the planet for their own ends.
This kinda argues for both sides. If the Shinra would just be replaced by the next guy, they aren't the biggest threat.

As for the rest, this is quibbling about the degree to which "biggest" relates to "most immediate." If you're trapped in an Australian wildfire, is the bigger threat the fire or the circumstances that created it? Probably the former, no?

In any case, the OG always made it pretty clear that the path to saving the planet involved taking down Sephiroth AND Shinra, I don't really expect that to change.
 
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