If you could pick or choose

[AerithLives]

If you could pick FF7 canon which was deleted from existence, which would it be?

For example:

Keep - FF7, On The Way To A Smile/The Maiden Who Travels The Planet, Before Crisis.

I could just able accept - Advent Children Complete.

Destroy - Dirge Of Cerberus, Crisis Core.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Before Crisis, as much as it's generated a lot of great art and fanfic(cough DeathispartoftheProcess cough), has always struck me as messy, a bit pointless in terms of canon, and very, very alternate universe spin offy.

So I wouldn't be sad to see it relegated to non-canon, just for fun, what if? Scenario type thing. Like an officially produced fanfic.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well Maiden Who Travels the Planet has for all intents and purposes been erased by Case of Lifestream White & Black, Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core. Nothing it says or depicts make sense given subsequent entries.

Last Order's most offending contribution to FFVII's continuity was erased by Crisis Core.

Hmmm...

... Well I guess with that, I'm good!

 

[AerithLives]

I've never heard of COTL white and black. What's that?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've never heard of COTL white and black. What's that?

They are additional stories in the On the Way to a Smile series. Lifestream White follows Aerith, and Lifestream Black follows Sephiroth.

You can read it here.

 

[billy22]

The Maiden Who travels the planet isn't canon. Unless I am misunderstanding the question and that you mean you'd make it canon.

The only one I did not care much for was DOC. So that I guess.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Keep (but improve): Before Crisis
Accept: the existence of Angeal and Genesis
Destroy: Deepground. Utterly nonsensical and an affront to reason

 

[ForceStealer]

Before Crisis is the easy jettison. A release for old cell phones that such a tiny portion of the fanbase has played or even knows anything about; I could make an argument that its canonicity is already pretty suspect. Almost none of the developments made in the game are worthwhile, additive, or enjoyable. Vincent has now NOT been asleep for 30 years and is chatting up just anyone who saunters in. Nanaki has no reason to assume he's the last of his race, even if he can't be 100% sure of Dinne's survival, and now just seems like kind of a jerk for not so much as asking about her or wanting to find her. It had such a rudimentary understanding of FF7's geography to think the Junon cannon could somehow be aimed at Midgar. The Turks straight-up saving the world right before FF7 starts? Just out with all of it.

The only thing in the entire game I kinda like is the dramatic irony of AVALANCHE being responsible for attacking the Corel reactor and leading to Barret reviving the very organization that caused the Shinra to destroy Corel in the first place. But even that's not worth the trouble of keeping the rest, and I still might prefer Shinra just being trigger happy about a completely innocent malfunction at the reactor.

The scale of Deepground is dumb, but it still strikes me as more of a game mechanic than anything ("need lots of mooks to fight") and isn't the cornucopia of retcons that BC is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's funny cause Dinne is straight up name dropped in the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania section for VII. Before Crisis may be shoddy but it's apparently still relevant because the creators used it to explain how Red XIII was able to make those babies 500 years later.

I also loved the twisted irony of AVALANCHE being responsible for Barret's tragedy, along with the tie in to Shalua giving Barret his gun arm.

But the cameos of every main FFVII character were pretty silly. I get why they did it, it was for fun's sake. But Vincent? Tifa? Cid? Some of those meetings are just straight up ignored and never acknowledged again. Now Cloud's and Zack's interactions with the Turks make sense.

BC was the first real episodic mobile game for Square, wasn't it? It's also technically the first entry in the Compilation of FFVII.

That explains why it's so trash. Even with it's clunky depiction, I would love to see it remastered and made to fit either consoles or modern smart phones cause it could be a great story if done properly.

The new Turks that were added were cool too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It was always ridiculous to suppose that a company the size of Shinra would have only three/four Turks. BC is certainly a hot mess, and I probably know it better than nearly anyone else here. The characters often act like simpletons and the ending is completely stupid. What irks me is that SE felt the need to explain the absence of all those other Turks from the OG, when there's no need to do this. The BC Turks don't have to be hors de combat/in hiding/actively seeking other employment. They can be elsewhere on the planet doing other shady stuff for Shinra while Rude, Reno, Elena and Tseng focus on Avalanche.

Veld was a great addition. Fight me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...But it seriously would strain credibility if there were 13+ Turks on the bench during FFVII and only Reno, Rude and Elena were on the assignments of finding Sephiroth and stopping Cloud and his gang.

Like, that would make no sense.

Reno gets straight up bed ridden after tangoing with Cloud, Tifa and Barret. That left Rude and Elena to track one of the most dangerous enemies alive, while simultaneously thwarting Cloud's group. That's simply inefficient not to mention reckless.

Also, what other missons could warrant the Turks during VII? Sephiroth kills the President and is seeking the Promised Land. Cloud and the others are beating the breaks off of every Shinra asset that they meet. There's no threat to Shinra in the world greater than these two. And later on, there's Meteorfall and Weapons.

I mean, if the BC Turks somehow managed to keep their jobs after outright defecting from Shinra to save Verdot and his daughter, there's no reason for the Turks to not be surveiling and attacking Cloud's group all across the map. Likewise several of them could rotate on the mission of pursuing Sephiroth.

I mean, they'd have to given Sephiroth would probably kill some of those Turks.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We don't have to assume that Cloud and Co's quest for Sephiroth is the only thing going on in their world during the timeline of this game.

Anyway, I thought Shinra were following Cloud, not trying to stop him. They wanted to get to Sephiroth ahead of him because they suspected Sephiroth was somewhere close to the Promised Land. Once they manage to get Hojo back, they have a much clearer idea of what Cloud is and why he's following Sephiroth than anyone in the party does.
IIRC, after Cloud and Co leave Midgar, they meet the Turks at
1. The Mythril Mines. The Turks show no interest in fighting.
2. Junon. But Cloud's in disguise and they don't recognise him.
3. Gongaga. The Turks have to fight because Cloud and Co have sneaked up on them
4. Wutai. They team up to take out Don Corneo
5. Gold Saucer: only Tseng, and only because he's come to get the Keystone, because he's learnt from his spy that Avalanche are en route to the Temple and he wants to steal a march on them
6. The Temple, where Tseng is dying
7. Icicle Inn: Elena wants to punch Cloud because she thinks he "did her boss in"
8. Junon, where Reno's trying to load the Huge Materia and they're trying to take it from him
9. The Gelnika, where Rude and Reno are trying to recover materia and they're trying to take it from them
10. Cid's Rocket, where, again, Rude is there to guard the rocket, not to hunt down and kill Avalanche
11. The Midgar Railway tunnel, where if they fight at all, it's only for old time's sake
(Have I forgotten any?)

I might be wrong, but whenever the Turks try to stop Avalanche, it's something very specific they're trying to stop, like stopping Avalanche from preventing the plate drop, or stopping them from stealing the huge materia, or stopping them from getting to the Temple first. They're really not that interested in annihilating them.

That being the case, I think it would make complete sense to assign three top Turks and a rookie to the task of monitoring Avalanche, and deploy the rest on other business. The only place in the entire game where it's odd that we don't see any other Turks is at Rufus's welcoming ceremony in Junon. And maybe in the Shinra Building.

And it wouldn't be hard to shoehorn them into the Remake. I have no expectations of it, but I'd quite like it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But again, what in the world could be going on during FFVII that would come close to necessitating any diversion from Cloud and Sephiroth? Genesis is dead. Rufus's bitter half-brother is dead. Wutai has surrendered. The only AVALANCHE out there is the one with Cloud. Not much else for Shinra to be worried about except keeping the mako pumpin'.

And the Turks were given orders to stop Cloud and the others "every step of the way", as far back as the Mythril Mines. The only reason they don't all throw down right there, is because they're a member short, thanks to Reno's injuries. But Rude tells Cloud quite clearly to be on the look out for when Reno recovers because he wants to "show his affection" to him with a new weapon. It's personal.

The Turks want to fight Cloud and his friends because they want payback and hold a grudge for their defeats thanks to them. They may have other jobs to do but they make it clear they want to get even. Even though Cloud can refuse to fight them in Midgar and they're cool with letting it go, if Cloud does choose to fight, they're more than happy to throw down and not hold back.

Honestly, the Turks only took a more subdued approach with Cloud's group because Cait Sith embedded himself as a spy, in order to find the Keystone. However Elena and Tseng make it quite clear that as long as Cloud and the others continue to move and get in the way, they'll always be targets. And the Turks do not forget. Their pride and competitive natures have them hold grudges, and that includes the BC Turks as well.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This really isn't about realism, though, is it? It's about good storytelling. If we encountered a different Turk every time we had to fight them, they'd be of no interest to us at all. Each one would just be generic enemy, no more interesting than a sahagin. The story focuses on a few so that we have a chance to get to know them as persons. Each encounter builds our knowledge of them. I really don't find it much of a suspension of disbelief to assume the others are just somewhere off camera, and that's why I said I didn't think BC needed to dream up some cockamamie reason why they're not in the OG. It seems like you do have trouble suspending your disbelief. You have to see them or they don't exist. I guess Hojo only has, what, four other employees in his science department, too.

If their orders truly were to stop Cloud "every step of the way" then they really are incredibly bad at following orders. They didn't even try to fight Avalanche in the Mythril Mines. But I suspect Elena isn't in the loop when it comes to company policy regarding Avalanche. In any case, once they got Hojo back, I'm pretty sure Shinra's objectives changed.

 

[Roger]

Keep: FFVII, certain missions from Before Crisis, On the way to a smile: Cases of Barret, Nanaki and Shinra
Destroy: Everything else

 

[Makoeyes987]

This really isn't about realism, though, is it? It's about good storytelling. If we encountered a different Turk every time we had to fight them, they'd be of no interest to us at all. Each one would just be generic enemy, no more interesting than a sahagin.

Why keep the BC Turks around then, if they're never gonna show up to fight or be beaten?

And I highly disagree about them being enemies no more interesting than a Sahagin. The Turks were some of the most amusing and interesting main story boss fights of FFVII because of their personalities, dialogue and boss battles. They all had unique attacks and rare gear to steal from them as well. And that was just Reno, Rude and Elena.

The Before Crisis Turks each have unique weapons and fighting styles that'd make them one-of-a-kind opponents. Not only that, but some wield weapons similar to the FFVII characters. That could easily open up unique battles with them and loot to obtain. They're the furthest thing from boring. Being able to win Cissnei's shuriken for Yuffie or the male Turk's katana for Cloud would be extremely appealing as trophies. They could easily function as a team of opponents ala Organization XIII, with unique personalities, quirks and strategies to take down. Quantity would not be a problem.

The story focuses on a few so that we have a chance to get to know them as persons. Each encounter builds our knowledge of them. I really don't find it much of a suspension of disbelief to assume the others are just somewhere off camera, and that's why I said I didn't think BC needed to dream up some cockamamie reason why they're not in the OG. It seems like you do have trouble suspending your disbelief. You have to see them or they don't exist. I guess Hojo only has, what, four other employees in his science department, too.

Actually Hojo has 8.

And it's not about being unable to believe what's not seen, it's about it not making sense. Throughout all of FFVII you speak to Shinra employees and even soldiers not on assignment to kill you. All those NPCs talk about how Shinra is in chaos and all resources are on high alert looking for Sephiroth or on the hunt for Cloud and his gang. When you're in Junon, the Shinra military is on high alert on the lookout for Sephiroth and Cloud. Nothing in the game ever points to Shinra having to divert focus away from the immediate plot of the game except in Wutai when the Turks take a day off.

Sephiroth and AVALANCHE are literally the two biggest threats to all of Shinra. Sephiroth murders countless Shinra soldiers wherever he goes and Cloud destroys countless Shinra machines while thwarting their plans to reach Sephiroth. And when Sephiroth invokes Meteor, Shinra is 100% focused on stopping it.

If other Turks were to be on duty, it would make zero sense to have them waste time not addressing the most pressing mission in the world, and it'd frankly be poor game design and storytelling to not utilize such unique characters as bosses, either mandatory or optional.

It's the same reasoning the International edition of FFVII added more Weapons as enemies. Not being able to confront such unique and interesting creatures would simply be wasted potential.

If their orders truly were to stop Cloud "every step of the way" then they really are incredibly bad at following orders. They didn't even try to fight Avalanche in the Mythril Mines.

They don't fight in the Mythril Mines because they're a man short. Reno's nursing his injuries. Elena is a rookie. And Rude isn't gonna try and tango with a 3 man group that includes an alleged EX-SOLDIER 1st class [strike]and his number one crush he can't bring himself to fight[/strike]. And Tseng doesn't fight.

That's not a fight worth engaging in, besides they were following the lead on Sephiroth.

But I suspect Elena isn't in the loop when it comes to company policy regarding Avalanche. In any case, once they got Hojo back, I'm pretty sure Shinra's objectives changed.

Tseng literally tells her to not spill their orders when she says they were ordered to stop Cloud by any means necessary. Tseng chiding her for leaking confirms she was right.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And I highly disagree about them being enemies no more interesting than a Sahagin. The Turks were some of the most amusing and interesting main story boss fights of FFVII because of their personalities, dialogue and boss battles. They all had unique attacks and rare gear to steal from them as well. And that was just Reno, Rude and Elena.

This is exactly my point. You couldn't have had fourteen different Turks in the OG because there wouldn't have been time for their personalities to develop. I have no way of knowing whether SE originally said to themselves, "Yes, it makes sense that there would only be four employees in this department", or whether they felt four was the right number to give each individual Turk a chance to get some proper character development. I suspect it was the latter.

Anyway, no BC Turks existed when the OG was written. Your argument is that if they had existed, then they must have inevitably confronted the party at some point, and since they didn't - because they hadn't yet been invented - any prequel that involved the creation of multiple new Turks would have to come up with some plausible explanation for why none of these 'new' Turks were ever seen in the original game.

I simply don't agree with you. I think it's easier to imagine they're just off-screen, getting on with other Turk business, than to accept the ludicrous jade weapon scenario. It's ridiculous to think a huge corporation like Shinra, which is so paranoid and so evil, would have only four operatives in their department of dirty tricks. That would be like the entire CIA being made up of half a dozen people, one of which is an intern. You think it's nonsensical that Shinra wouldn't have every single one of their Turks on the Avalanche case, but I think it's equally nonsensical to suppose four corporate goons would be enough for the needs of a man like President Shinra.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is exactly my point. You couldn't have had fourteen different Turks in the OG because there wouldn't have been time for their personalities to develop. I have no way of knowing whether SE originally said to themselves, "Yes, it makes sense that there would only be four employees in this department", or whether they felt four was the right number to give each individual Turk a chance to get some proper character development. I suspect it was the latter.

Well we're only examining a hypothetical, so that can only go so far. But presumably, based on the fact the same writers made a story with 13 different villains you fight through the story, I highly doubt it'd be any problem at all to write and include more villains on the Shinra side. The game would be longer but FFVIII and IX are much longer too. That's not somehow beyond their capabilities at all.

I simply don't agree with you. I think it's easier to imagine they're just off-screen, getting on with other Turk business, than to accept the ludicrous jade weapon scenario.

What other Turk business?? LOL there is like literally nothing at all for the Turks to do in VII that would make any logical sense for them to pursue, outside of the two most dangerous missions that threaten Shinra.

Everything else in the world that's a threat to Shinra has been defeated or eliminated. What are presuming the Turks could do?

Also, the Jade Weapon has nothing to do with the Turks not being present in FFVII. That's entirely separate and takes place after those Turks leave Shinra.

The Before Crisis Turks are presumed to have simply died fighting Zirconaide. And Tseng was told that the only way Reno, Rude and himself would not be executed for their betrayal would be by executing Verdot and Elfe. Tseng agreed and pretends to kill them.

Because the Turks helped Verdot, who betrayed Shinra, they were all sentenced to death. Elfe, the previous leader of AVALANCHE, is Verdot's daughter. The Turks help Verdot obtain the Materia necessary to save her life and disobeyed orders to kill Verdot on sight.

All of the Turks were going to be killed for betraying Shinra and helping AVALANCHE had Rufus not stepped in and offered Tseng an out by having him promise their life long loyalty.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mako, believe me, I know the plot of Before Crisis.

I keep getting lured away from my specific point, which is that the writers came up with this convoluted ending to BC in order to explain why all these BC Turks were missing from FFVII, when it wasn't something they needed to explain. Who was going to turn around to SE and say, "Hey, now we have all these Turks but where were they during the OG, huh, huh?"

Obviously nothing else worthy of Turk attention was going on in the OG, because the game's plot had a very specific focus. The world of FFVII is not a real place, but if it were a real place, all kinds of stuff would have been going on that would never get mentioned because it wasn't important to the plot. I've recently been watching a drama called The Dark set in Germany in the period from 1921 to 2020; they almost never mention either of the two world wars and they never mention the Nazis or Hitler, but that's not because they're trying to pretend these things didn't happen; they're just not relevant to the plot.

If SE can invent Zirconiade and Jade Weapon and Deepground and Project Gillian, they can invent a few more crises to keep 12 new Turks occupied for the duration of the OG. This world is perpetually lurching from one crisis to the next anyway. Or we can simply imagine that these others Turks too were on Avalanche's trail, and perhaps Avalanche even encountered them from time to time. Maybe the ChocoboMan at the entrance to the Gold Saucer was an undercover Turk! Maybe the Crazy Shopper in Mideel was another. We just don't see these scenes because the storytellers chose to focus on just 4 Turks. I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm saying that as an explanation for where all the 'new' Turks were during the timeline of the OG, it would have sufficed.

And now, enough of this.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, believe me, I know the plot of Before Crisis.

I keep getting lured away from my specific point, which is that the writers came up with this convoluted ending to BC in order to explain why all these BC Turks were missing from FFVII, when it wasn't something they needed to explain. Who was going to turn around to SE and say, "Hey, now we have all these Turks but where were they during the OG, huh, huh?"

Me, @Roger, @The Twilight Mexican ...

I'm like, 100% certain that if Before Crisis ended differently and resolved to where the unique, player Turks were somehow still employed with Shinra as Turks all through FFVII, fans would go "How the hell does that make sense?! They've left a massive plot hole!"

Because it would be one. Why would the writers leave those OC Turks employed with Shinra when the entire plot of FFVII is built around the Turks being small, elite group composed of just Reno, Rude, Elena and Tseng? It'd be a huge retcon. A retcon that would create more questions and confusion.

Hell, Roger can hardly reconcile the very existence of Deepground and the Tsviets during the plot of FFVII! And the writer's tried to explain them away by saying they were trapped underground and busy dealing with the drama of the Tsviets trying to overthrow Restrictors.

You think a dozen capable, skilled, and powerful Turks just sitting on the bench would escape the notice of fans like us?

Obviously nothing else worthy of Turk attention was going on in the OG, because the game's plot had a very specific focus. The world of FFVII is not a real place, but if it were a real place, all kinds of stuff would have been going on that would never get mentioned because it wasn't important to the plot. I've recently been watching a drama called The Dark set in Germany in the period from 1921 to 2020; they almost never mention either of the two world wars and they never mention the Nazis or Hitler, but that's not because they're trying to pretend these things didn't happen; they're just not relevant to the plot.

Right, but the world of FFVII is not shown to be as large or varied as the real world. Shinra has complete and total control of a populace that has forgotten almost all it's past and history. And given the narrow focus of FFVII, it just wouldn't fit to have a huge number of Turks not involved in the plot. From a story and gameplay perspective.

If SE can invent Zirconiade and Jade Weapon and Deepground and Project Gillian, they can invent a few more crises to keep 12 new Turks occupied for the duration of the OG. This world is perpetually lurching from one crisis to the next anyway. Or we can simply imagine that these others Turks too were on Avalanche's trail, and perhaps Avalanche even encountered them from time to time. Maybe the ChocoboMan at the entrance to the Gold Saucer was an undercover Turk! Maybe the Crazy Shopper in Mideel was another. We just don't see these scenes because the storytellers chose to focus on just 4 Turks. I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm saying that as an explanation for where all the 'new' Turks were during the timeline of the OG, it would have sufficed.

And now, enough of this.

And that literally would create a schism in FFVII fandom that would be more massive than the Anglican Church splitting off from the Catholic faith.

I'm pretty positive most fans would cringe at the thought of FFVII's plot being forcefully changed or diluted to fit with Compilation additions. It'd be like how George Lucas shoehorns new random, terrible scenes to the original Star Wars trilogy.

 

[Clement Rage]

*resists urge to start Star Wars argument*

It would be completely bizarre to have all the Turks go back to work as though nothing happened after open rebellion and murdering Shinra staff. There had to be a price, and it had to bite.

If their orders truly were to stop Cloud "every step of the way" then they really are incredibly bad at following orders.

Well, yes. Several times they state their orders are to find Cloud, or seek them out and kill them, right before defying those same orders. Shinra's orders are strict, they just don't follow them if they can find an excuse not to.

Mythril Mines, they have a disadvantage, Elena's on her first day, if they fight there, Rude just ends up hospitalised alongside Reno, or dead, because he has no escape.

Reno is eager to get his revenge at Gongaga, they're not avoiding them.

Hojo doesn't tell Shinra anything about Cloud, that's a major plot point.

Since when is Reeve Tseng's spy? If anything, it's the other way around. Tseng could simply be ordered 'be at this spot with a helicopter to receive the key to the Temple'.

I agree in principle that departments could be bigger, but you can apply that to all of them. There could be an entire civilian intelligence division in the Shinra building doing desk work, assigning Turks to the 'killing people' part. The army and SOLDIER would have their own people for that too.

If they're supposed to be monitoring Cloud, they do a terrible job of it, constantly being snuck up on and letting executives wander into gunshot range.