Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread

[The Twilight Mexican]

Come debate what role you think Jessie or she and the rest of TAG (the Tragic Avalanche Trio) should have in the remake here. Just here.

 

[Jairus]

We don't know for sure that's all Aerith will get this time, though. And all I'm really asking for are a few moments between Cloud and Jessie like what he had with Aerith. I just want her to be allowed to have at least that much. And like with Aerith later, hints of at least a little bit of mutual attraction. Something to validate its possibility without any doubt or room for being seen as anything other than that, even if it's just something small.

Dunno if anyone'll actually come in here now that the topic's been given its own thread.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Jairus, I don't think anyone is hostile to the idea of Jessie getting her time in the sun as a character. It's more a concern about the knock-on effect on the plot and on Cloud's character of beefing up the romance between them. He'll start to look like someone who only got interested in Aerith because Jessie died, and then only got interested in Tifa because Aerith died. In the OG Jessie was always more interested in him than he was in her, and the same was true between him and Tifa, at least in the beginning. Cloud wasn't really capable of authentic emotions at that point in the game (although of course the Renake may change this). It's open for debate whether he would have tried to rescue Tifa from Corneo if Aerith hadn't been urging him on. If Tifa had been the one to die in the battle on the pillar, she'd have had no place in the LTD. Now that would be an interesting fic: if Tifa had died and Jessie had lived, would she have been able to put his psyche back together again some other way?

 

[Eerie]

My original impression of the Jessie character in the OG was that she was a feint.

Quoting from the other message because for some reason that reminded me of a very common trope in writing, which is, a girl asking about what is the relationship between two characters, is probably one of the best ways to underline that the relationship is different from a normal friendship (whatever it could be, by the way). So her asking that to Cloud in the Remake does introduce us to a certain Tifa, with whom Cloud a specific relationship that piques Jessie's interest... because she herself is interested in him. So like this, the writer can easily show us a bit of the characters and their interactions.

For the rest, I won't say anything, I don't have any expectation for her or the other Avalanche members. I just hope they'll be interesting and fun to have around.

 

[Jairus]

Except that they won't allow that it could be done in such a way as to avoid that affect and look. As I pointed out before, a character losing two love interests has been done before, and done well. If his level of interest is different between Jessie and Aerith and the progression with them is also different, then it can still work, especially if enough time passes between the development of each interest. Each romance or potential romance could be handled in a unique and different way to set them apart. Like I said, love interest doesn't necessarily mean full on or fully realized. Just the presence of at least some amount of mutual attraction whether it ends up being acted on or not. And in the remake, the level of interest Cloud has in Jessie can be at least a little more than it was in the OG without affecting Aerith or Tifa.

Cloud can feel emotions, and this is because he's a human being. He can walk, talk, think (not always clearly, but he can think) and therefore feel. He's not an automaton.

And the fact that Cloud was interrupted before he could answer Jessie's question could mean that how he answers later might be up to us given the presence of dialogue choices and choices-dependent events and scenes. Aerith asked him basically the same question in the OG and we got to decide how he answered. It's not unreasonable to think we might get the same opportunity when answering Jessie's question. Also, the very fact that Jessie asks that question shows her flirting has a purpose and that it's not just for fun.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We don't know for sure that's all Aerith will get this time, though.

For anyone confused about this response, I think Jairus was replying to my post here:

Flirtation without addressing the underlying feelings in some way feels incomplete.

That's all Aerith is going to get, so we should probably expect the same for anyone of less relevance to the overall story/plot.

Anywho, alright. Sure. We don't know that's all Aerith is going to get. They could -- for a misplaced priority of giving undue weight to externalized romantic manifestation -- absolutely choose to dessicate a pivotal angle of Cloud and Aerith's resonant, tragically profound relation to one another. As well as discard defining aspects of Cloud's personality and character trajectory.

On their worst day, though, I don't believe they have judgment that poor.

Note, by the way, that I am not saying that it isn't possible (it is); nor am I refusing to consider it (I have); nor am I not open to new possibilities (I factually totally am) -- or any other dismissive catchphrases I may have overlooked that commonly appear when folks disagree with one of your proposals.

I merely assess it as an unlikely possibility due to what I perceive to be the detriment it would bring to an already established, successful, and beloved set of character dynamics, themes, and evolutions.

No, I do not know with all certainty beyond any conceivable alternative possibility that such changes could only be to the detriment of those story elements. (Seems I did overlook one of those common dismissive catchphrases a couple of paragraphs back, but I think I've got them all now.) I simply believe in all sincerity that it would be detrimental for the various reasons I mentioned, none of which are auto-generated (nope, I was still missing another one of those catchphrases) reactions conceived in an irrational notion of imposing shame, degradation, humiliation, or additional indignity unspecified upon a fictional (i.e. make-believe) character -- such notion of shaming, degrading, humiliating, or otherwise indignifying that construct inexplicably applied in this situation to a character I have personally always liked more than average despite their minor role in the narrative composition in which they are featured.

I'm content with that leftover uncertainty.

 

[Jairus]

How do you mean dessicate? What angle? And why does letting Cloud feel even just a small bit of attraction for Jessie automatically mean discarding defining aspects of his character and personality? Feeling is not the same as acting on it. SE's probably going to have Cloud and Aerith do a full-on mouth kiss in the Gold Saucer date, so that's way more than what you think she'll get and way more than I know Jessie will get.

If you like Jessie, then you should want every aspect of her character expanded and explored in the remake. Not every aspect except one.

If you are allowing that you're not certain it would only be detrimental for Jessie to have her feelings even slightly reciprocated even in a small way, then come up with a scenario where that could happen and work well.

And I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from making any mocking or ridiculing comments like you did. I never said anything about degrading or humiliating or anything like that and you know it.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

SE's probably going to have Cloud and Aerith do a full-on mouth kiss in the Gold Saucer date, so that's way more than what you think she'll get and way more than I know Jessie will get.

What type of probability are you basing this on?

 

[Rydeen]

And why does letting Cloud feel even just a small bit of attraction for Jessie automatically mean discarding defining aspects of his character and personality?

He does already. You can flirt with her.

 

[Jairus]

Well, it's just a guess since they can show more with the new tech and not leave it ambiguous like the OG. Though it seems SE does love being vague a lot.

Ry, that's not what I mean. I mean allowing for at least a small moment or two of something more than just flirting. Or him admitting to that small bit of attraction in some way, even if it's indirect. As long as it's unmistakable that that's what he's doing.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I ... while I do think they will make the Cloud Aerith GS date the only one this time (at least on a first run) and establish them more firmly as actually dating this time ... I don't know if full on kisses will be happening for anyone ? CT either unless it's like flashforward to in the future or something. There's so much growth and healing to be done.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from making any mocking or ridiculing comments like you did. I never said anything about degrading or humiliating or anything like that and you know it.

Just today, you have made no less than six impassioned appeals to the notion of the character's dignity:

https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-story-content.17049/post-838920

"And leaving her feelings unaddressed is not a good way to treat her character, especially after they were just forgotten in the OG because 'OMG must blast A/T everywhere! J must never have her own chance to have what they have with C!'"

"But I guess some people can't handle the idea of anything ever impinging on the holy duo of A & T. But a sure way to get people to resent those two is to not allow their spotlight to be shared and treat J as being inferior to them and unworthy of being allowed to have some of what they have, which includes attention from Cloud."
---

https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-story-content.17049/post-838932

"I don't want her feelings reduced to empty flirting just for the sake of avoiding conflict with Aerith and Tifa. That cheapens her and her feelings."
---

https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-story-content.17049/post-838944

"Oh, so Jessie can be cast aside just because she isn't "main" or a PC? That sounds a bit discriminatory to me."

"No, they are being cheapened because her interest is being reduced to mindless, empty flirting purely as an excuse to avoid giving any depth to those feelings and avoid conflict with Aerith and Tifa, because - gasp - we can't possibly allow anything to impinge on the holy duo of A & T."
---

https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/hopes-for-the-remake-story-content.17049/post-838953

"You discriminate by not allowing her the possibility of being treated the same as her PC counterparts just because she isn't a PC."
---

Again, that's just from today, Jairus.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize you do the things you do, but it's frankly inconceivable to me that you could constantly explicitly champion the character's dignity, then turn around and say that you never said anything about it.

Again, I want to believe that you don't realize your behavior, but it has been pointed out to you so many times by so many people. Anyone who regularly posts in this section of the forum could have collated those dismissive "catchphrases" as I referred to them that you assert constantly whenever someone disagrees with you.

Those precise deflections come from you every single time this topic comes around. You also consistently end up saying things that you deny you've said, even when they're quoted back to you as I did above.

The closest to any self-aware acknowledgement we ever see from you is that you were made to feel ganged up on -- but we apparently "should know that by now," as though your conscious behavior is not your own responsibility.

You have the opportunity to analyze your words before posting. "I felt ganged up on and overreacted" is valid once or twice. Maybe even three times. Why the hell not? But this is never-ending with you, and the excuses and deflections aren't cutting it anymore.

You're 42 years old. It's time to adult.

 

[Jairus]

You know I didn't use the words you used. That's what I meant. I never said I didn't choose to respond to the arguments - and you didn't have to post the way you did above in your previous post. That sort of thing is what sets me off. You can make your point without doing that sort of thing. I'm not the only one that needs to be responsible for how I post.

I made some of those quoted comments to try and illustrate the kind of mindset I'm talking about, which is that people seem to give more attention to some characters than others (which I understand is a natural tendency), but when a lesser character has the chance to get more attention, some people seem to want certain parts left out of that increased attention rather than allow every part of the character's persona and such to be given more attention and development.

Is it so hard to say something like, "I'm not keen on the idea myself and I'm not sure it would work, but maybe there's something I haven't thought of, either. So I guess it could be possible there's a way to do what you're saying and make it work." and leave it at that? And don't mock me by saying that back to me, either. I'd like a more genuine answer.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I ... while I do think they will make the Cloud Aerith GS date the only one this time (at least on a first run) and establish them more firmly as actually dating this time ... I don't know if full-on kisses will be happening for anyone ? CT either unless it's like flashforward to in the future or something. There's so much growth and healing to be done.

Do you mean the GS thing actually being referred to as a date or Cloud and Aerith actually proclaiming themselves to be dating each other?

Is it so hard to say something like, "I'm not keen on the idea myself and I'm not sure it would work, but maybe there's something I haven't thought of, either. So I guess it could be possible there's a way to do what you're saying and make it work." and leave it at that? And don't mock me by saying that back to me, either. I'd like a more genuine answer.

I mean, what if what you're saying is something that a person doesn't believe will actually [shouldn't/couldn't] work, though? In that, creating scenarios of it "working" is something they disagree with fundamentally and have an argument to make a case against? They wouldn't come from a mindset that there's a way to get something to work that they don't believe has any merit to be implemented in the first place. It's not as important to get people to say a specific thing, especially if they ardently disagree with it, as it is to just get your point across and hope for it to be understood. The first hump is to argue from a point that is delegated towards the reasoning of expectancy and understanding of the material itself.

At the core of this, it's a discussion about the expectation of characterization and storytelling—this where, truly, the most plausible logic in expectation initially starts with what is based within the truth of what already exists. While we have been made aware that this Remake isn't going to be a 1:1 recreation (thankfully), we also understand that it's still heavily using the full story of the OG + Compilation elements as the foundation of its existence. As that stands, what is already engraved from these previous installments is reasonably going to be the first line of expectancy when having discussions on what is considered plausible/implausible for the Remake to concentrate on. We've already been told how this game is going to elevate character and storytelling from the developers themselves, but then if one is to talk about what to expect on what IS elevated—using what abides by what is already established is the way to go. It's not the ONLY way by the end of it, and for what could happen isn't limited to what has already been established (again, this has been pointed out by the developers, and even trailers alone have proven this). but still, the pre-knowledge of what has been expressed is the best place to start.

For Jessie, this all most certainly would permit more interaction, expression, and storytelling from her character that fits within the narrative—there is absolutely no problem with this understanding here and I would endorse it heavily myself. But, I think what a lot of us feel, Jairus, is that the type [and/or amount] of expression you're expecting isn't abiding by or corresponds with what is already established in expectation—at least, for how much you're really arguing it here for something that seems to be more than reasonable. If there would be any traction in the conversation, I think the defense in all of this goes beyond an attempt at conceptualizing this idea of Jessie's character being "in the shadow" of Tifa and Aerith—this is just trivial and petty, and has absolutely nothing to do with an actual dissection or understanding of the story. Rather, you would want to present an argument as to how/why any further or pivotal implementation of romantic storytelling between Jessie and Cloud would benefit, coincide and be presented without creating a bump or being inconsistent for the story of FFVII. Even further, why it would be significant towards all of this for Jessie to have this meaning of "could've been" with Cloud in the first place, and how this interacts with the fabula going on here.

I for one believe there are a myriad of ways they could express what could be a simply explicit or subtextual acknowledgment of some form of mutual attraction between the two without it being such a conflict to either of their character/storytelling—this already being done to some degree in the OG's format of dialogue choice—but the way you're presenting your argument every single time suggests much more than what that would imply, especially with the fact that you keep wanting to compare it with Aerith and Tifa's roles. I get that it seems that people are pushing to not expect ANYTHING, but I don't believe your way of handling this is actually compelling them to think otherwise anyway.

I mean damn dude, a whole thread was essentially created by you and your arguments over Jessie and Cloud's romantic storytelling. What could be added for them is either something that would be a harmless thing for the sake of the limited expression that they have with one another, or you really are pushing it more than what you were originally coming from, giving it the impression that what you're considering is much larger and impactful than what goes beyond the core function of Jessie's involvement in the story and with Cloud. There's definitely room for more expression with, yes, Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling. But for what could be expressed ultimately, if a line is to be drawn for where the romantic storytelling between Cloud/Jessie goes, then I'll happily provide the pen to do so.

 

[Misterbadguy]

Honestly if we get down to the brass tacks of this situation, in terms of the relationship between Cloud and Jessie I think the best/most you can expect is maybe a silly almost-date sidequest in the vein of the one with Gladio's sister in FF15. I wouldn't anticipate anything more substantial than that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The impression I gained from the OG was that Jessie fancied Cloud but that he didn't return the favour, and indeed seemed oblivious to her interest. His kind gestures towards her are those of one comrade, or even just one human being, to another. Saving someone from certain death in an exploding reactor or comforting them when they're dying isn't proof of romantic attraction.

I'm very willing to acknowledge that SE might choose in the Remake to reframe the relationship between Jessie and Cloud as one of mutual romantic interest. I don't accept that mutual romantic interest existed in the original game.

 

[Kai Schulen]

My only 2 gil on this is that if SE makes Jessie a LI that's as legitimate as Tifa and Aerith, well....then it just feels it cheapens the relationship between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith as a whole, y'know?

To me, one of the most appealing thing about Clerith is that it's tragic in that Aerith dies before their relationship takes off. What appeals to me about Cloti is that Tifa is the key to piecing together Cloud's identity and revealing the truth.

You gotta ask yourself, what significant narrative purpose would a relationship between Jessie and Cloud have? And just because SE could have Jessie as a legit LI for Cloud in the Remake doesn't necessarily mean that they should. I mean, they could have revive Aerith DLC but that doesn't mean that they should do it.

 

[Erotic Materia]

@The Twilight Mexican and @MelodicEnigma

Y'all talk words real good. I envy you.

 

[Jairus]

I for one believe there are a myriad of ways they could express what could be a simply explicit or subtextual acknowledgment of some form of mutual attraction between the two without it being such a conflict to either of their character/storytelling.

That's all I really want and what I've been trying to say all along - some acknowledgement that the mutual attraction exists without conflicting with either of the characters or storytelling. Exactly what you said, done in such a way that it can't be interpreted to be anything else but that.

There's definitely room for more expression with, yes, Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling.

Agreed, and that's what I've been trying to say. But people don't seem to want to allow even that much. They think I want them to have this big relationship or something, but that's not what I'm saying. I know that's not going to happen and I don't expect it. And Lic, since Cloud could flirt with her in the OG, that implies he could have had a little attraction for her if the player decided to have him do it.

I understand what you're saying, Trainer. It just irritates me that people seem to think that Aerith and Tifa are these sacred cows that can't be touched or impinged on in any way. They get all the attention from players. What I would like to see is Jessie getting more of that attention in general - she doesn't have to be a major LI for Cloud to do that. I'd just like her as a character to be remembered and thought of as much as or almost as much as the other two girls rather than not being given as much attention from people simply because she's an NPC and she's not named Aerith or Tifa.

 

[looneymoon]

I must say, the LTD:Remake Edition came from a shipping angle I didn't really expect.

 

[Jairus]

Well, adding Jessie to the mix would be an interesting way to catch people off guard and take advantage of their expectations in order to surprise them and add a new dimension to the LTD, but I don't expect much more than what MelodicEnigma was saying, which I quoted above. I guess Aerith and Tifa are too inviolable to tolerate even the smallest of changes/additions to the dynamic.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The problem here, Jairus, is that if Jessie isn't developed in the direction you desire, you won't accept that SE made those choices for valid artistic and narrative reasons, but were forced into selling Jessie short by the Tifa and Aerith fans. Naturally you think that building up Jessie's romantic role is the best direction for her character to be developed, and it may turn out at SE agrees with you. But if nothing else, this debate must surely have shown you that plenty of fans feel it would not be good story-telling to take Jessie's development in that direction, and I hope you can see that we have arrived at this conclusion after giving the matter serious thought; it isn't the knee-jerk reaction of fanatical, close-minded Tifa and Aerith fans.

 

[Odysseus]

All this arguing in circles is ultimately in service of nothing. Whatever role she has been given is the role she will receive. Obviously the die hard LTD people aren't going to want to complicate things further, there's a reason Yuffie has never been seriously considered for the role either (besides being so much younger.) There's no changing their minds, Jairus. And many of the people arguing against you aren't die hard Clotis or Cleriths anyway. As a long time Jessie fan myself, I couldn't care less if she has a deep romantic plot line with Cloud or not. Her crush on Cloud, while cute, was never what made her interesting to me. That's not all there is to explore about her.

I know people haven't been the most respectful i their rebuttals, and I don't condone that, but I mean, oh well. Some people online can be kinda rude or snarky. It happens. The only reason people are singling you out so much is because You've gone to bat on this same fucking issue, and made the same damned arguments over and over again. Its gotten old. Just. Move. On. Already. I'm actually getting pretty annoyed about all this negative discourse surrounding a character I like; I don't want people to dislike her just because of this one-man "Neo LTD" debate you're raging. You can ship Cloud & Jessie, other people probably will too once the remake comes, just don't go getting mad if thats now where square takes things. Be chill about it, and everyone else will be chill about it too. This is a good place with a nice community, nobody will go after you if you keep it cool.

 

[Jairus]

I didn't say she should only be developed in a romantic direction or that it was even the best. Why do people think I did? You're putting words in my mouth. I want her developed in every way, not just that. While many of you guys seem to want her developed in every way but one.

Storytelling works in more ways that you think. Why shouldn't SE do something like that to throw the so-called expert fans completely off guard so as to be able to surprise even them with something they never saw coming? But I don't expect them to.

I can't tell just by a post how much thought has gone into the response, so saying thought's been put into it doesn't mean anything if it can't be shown. You can disagree while still allowing for the possibility that there might be a way it could work and thereby not putting down my position.

Ody, I try to be cool, but when I'm responded to with almost nothing but criticism and disagreement, that makes it hard.

Again, I'll quote MelodicEnigma:

I for one believe there are a myriad of ways they could express what could be a simply explicit or subtextual acknowledgment of some form of mutual attraction between the two without it being such a conflict to either of their character/storytelling.

There's definitely room for more expression with, yes, Cloud being able to reciprocate in some way that wouldn't tear down the very fabric of his storytelling.

That is all I want and expect to see in regards to Cloud and Jessie's romantic angle in the remake. Full stop.

 

[Erotic Materia]

@Odysseus I'm completely on board with your viewpoint re: Jessie. I'm really more excited to see her expanded upon as a person, such as her bomb-crafting, ID-spoofing, and general anarchist activities. I'm completely expecting and hoping for her to make subtle (or maybe not so subtle) attempts at flirting with Cloud, who I like to imagine will remain completely oblivious right up until that final moment when she's dying on the stairs. Deathbed confessions and all that.

In a somewhat morbid vein, though, I'm really looking forward to her death. If done right, it could be beautiful. It's one of the first real gut-punches of the game, IMO.